Thai Navy releases document on why it needs submarines

[elgordo38]

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.

The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.

How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

Add the word "barely" These subs will more than like come with a built in hidden GPS that China can activate should war break out between the two. Push one button to find the subs push the second button for destroy. The Chinese would more than likely have a self destruct hidden feature built in as well. Just ask Ecuador what it is like to do business with the Chinese. They should consider this before signing the railway deal. Doing business with the Chinese is like signing a "rent to own" contract. They were like a kid in a candy store asking the C's for money for everything literally billions. The C's finally balked when Ecuador asked for billions to build an oil refinery. The C's are holding Ecuador's oil as ransom/collateral plus charging 7 and 1/2 percent interest on billions of loans in a down economy.

Edited July 31, 2015 by elgordo38

[mango66]

a) I agree that thai shouöld have some submarines

I deep concerns that chinese have a same safetry like other manufacturers

( China Quality you see every day on your job and in your home - 10 times worse than any other mfg;

c) With China you take the biggest anymy you can have , in your own house by yourselfe !!

( like some stupid Eu countries bought some star fighter - navigation trough satelite -

if that country shuts down your frequency, your plane is without navigatin !! Perfect defense system !!

[mango66]

they will give you even a 20 year free service contract -

to come every 3 months to read out and copy all your relevant datas,

stored in the computer system, hidden for you,

available for them !!

With Thai knowledge on IT , they never will be able to find this out !!

So I think its better Thailand would sign a contract, that China will take care for the Thai Gulf,

for andaman sea they do already !!

[hawker9000]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine purchases with multiple posts!

Equally amazing is that this poster is a Newbie with just 8 posts.

Not that I'm suspicious or anything ....:-)

Agreed. One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on TV in a long time. And that's saying something! But the question really is, what could three 2nd rate Chinese subs accomplish that reasonably equipped surface vessels couldn't accomplish much more cheaply, reliably, effectively, and with greater operating range? And where will these subs spend their upkeep & refit availabilities? Thailand? LOL. 'Back in their own Chinese shipyards of course! Just WHO is it the RTN expects to be able to hide from by operating these subs anyway? Any opponent with reasonably modern ASW capability looking for these things, in the relatively shallow & confined waters of the GOT, will be almost literally shooting fish in a barrel. It'd be an exercise for midshipmen.

I think those involved with trying to float this scheme aren't even that concerned with actually keeping up with the Joneses; that's just a lure for "face"-obsessed Thais. The whole idea is simply childish. Any true naval professional would be ashamed to have his name behind this.

[Jonmarleesco]

'The submarines would be only 0.006 per cent of the total marine interests because they could be used for at least 30 years ...' They're Chinese, for God's sake. Thirty years? More like thirty months.

[hawker9000]

'The submarines would be only 0.006 per cent of the total marine interests because they could be used for at least 30 years ...' They're Chinese, for God's sake. Thirty years? More like thirty months.

...or thirty minutes ...

[Rancid]

Military procurement isn't about equipping the military, it's about corruption, politics and economics.

For example think why is Australia buying the F35 fighter, by all accounts it is a very expensive lemon.

[HerbalEd]

Well, they haven't convinced me. Sounds like the navy boys want new toys and have offered very thin and pale reasons why they're needed. This would be such a huge and terrible waste of money that's much better used and needed elsewhere.

[hawker9000]

Military procurement isn't about equipping the military, it's about corruption, politics and economics.

For example think why is Australia buying the F35 fighter, by all accounts it is a very expensive lemon.

No, not by "all accounts", but admittedly by some. I don't think you have any concept of what the F-35 is about, and are just parroting something random you saw or heard somewhere. It's possibly not a "dogfighter" in any scenario where the opponent is an aircraft specifically designed for sustained high-G, high-AOA maneuvering. It's certainly not a single-purpose aircraft. In fact - it's one airframe adapted to multiple mission types (F-35A, F-35B, F35C). That doesn't disqualify it as an interceptor or in other roles. The F-14 wasn't really a dogfighter either (Tom Cruise & Topgun notwithstanding). Even the venerable F-4 couldn't really turn & burn with lighter wing-loaded fighters of the day (but with its BVR missile capability, the concept was that it wouldn't need to, hence no internal guns). You're obviously out to just blindly slag all military acquisition. Fair enough, but it disqualifies any opinion on anything specific.

Here's a link:

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/lockheed-martin-f-35-is-it-as-bad-as-some-say.html

Read a little. (Maybe make that Step 1 next time ... For example.)

Edited July 31, 2015 by hawker9000

[tracker1]

I think the Admiral is over excited and has to many semen on his hands and will be overjoyed to have a lot more semen if the submarines are purchased at the moment it all seems a bit premature !

[Jimbolai]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

It's not only 50 meters deep and are you aware that Thailand also has another entirely different body of water on its western front and that patrol boats and submarines have different capabilities and missions?

Torpedoing Rohingya boats?

have you forgotten ? one of the dozen or so admiral's in the navy's advanced "strike force" group asked if the subs could be equipped with retractable wheels . that would eliminate the need for "camo sub pens" as they could be driven to "dry dock" for repairs and maintenance . the sight of a sub on the streets would make the motorcycle tuffs think twice about speeding . no one wants a Chinese torpedo up their keester ....

I trust that I am not giving anything away but just think what retractable wheels could do for the Sub Fleet. Rush right across the peninsula into Ranong and plunge into the Andaman sea for law and order. Not even talking about invisible surveillance of the river through Bangkok. Surely other nations will line-up to be let-in on the new Thai Sub system. This will show the world that Thailand is more than just spicy food.

[Jimbolai]

Military procurement isn't about equipping the military, it's about corruption, politics and economics.

For example think why is Australia buying the F35 fighter, by all accounts it is a very expensive lemon.

Sure, in the hands of drunken, swearing denigrate big mouthed Australians everything is a lemon.

Just saying

.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Jimbolai

[ratcatcher]

Torpedoing Rohingya boats?

have you forgotten ? one of the dozen or so admiral's in the navy's advanced "strike force" group asked if the subs could be equipped with retractable wheels . that would eliminate the need for "camo sub pens" as they could be driven to "dry dock" for repairs and maintenance . the sight of a sub on the streets would make the motorcycle tuffs think twice about speeding . no one wants a Chinese torpedo up their keester ....

I trust that I am not giving anything away but just think what retractable wheels could do for the Sub Fleet. Rush right across the peninsula into Ranong and plunge into the Andaman sea for law and order. Not even talking about invisible surveillance of the river through Bangkok. Surely other nations will line-up to be let-in on the new Thai Sub system. This will show the world that Thailand is more than just spicy food.

Wheely?

[ratcatcher]

I envision the procurement document looks something like this.

[Nigeone]

I have to laugh at this suggestion. I'm sure there guys on here ie ex military or even submariners. I mentioned in another thread how the UK have just about finally commissioned a new sub and the crew have been in training on the new hardware for 2 years. And the UK has a long history of submarines. It still hasn't finished its sea trials etc so what chance does Thailand have of this being a successful venture. Also I have no confidence in these Subs lasting anywhere near 30 years and certainly with the Thai record of maintenance and this being a complicated bit of kit this has disaster wrote all over it. The Chinese are ambitious or generous or very stupid to offer a 8 year guarantee for maintenance and you would have to hope the airline links to China remain good as they will I feel need them. I give it less than 1 year if they ever get commissioned in Thailand before a major incident is going to happen. Inside 5 years they will be parked up alongside the aircraft carrier. As a foot note have they any extraction method available for release a trapped crew ? or sufficient equipment for treating decompression problems?

Edited July 31, 2015 by Nigeone

[yuv06]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

[Nigeone]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

[yuv06]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

[yuv06]

Peek at the Chinese sub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_v1fETFNiA

[Nigeone]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

[watcharacters]

Is Thailand thinking about becoming involved in a naval war?

And who would be expected to front the cost for these vessels?

[JAG]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Which makes the case for spending what money is available on enhancing the RTN Anti Submarine Warfare capability.

[yuv06]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

Actually Thai navy have been operating Chinese cruise missiles for more than 2 decades c801 and now c802 see vid test Thai Navy c801 with no war head

[Nigeone]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

Actually Thai navy have been operating Chinese cruise missiles for more than 2 decades c801 and now c802 see vid test Thai Navy c801 with no war head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCeTYbMty1U

You are obviously well informed of there capabilities but do you think they will be able to maintain this programme for any length of time?? I'm not by the way having a go it's a genuine question?

[JAG]

Post #30 among others suggests that these Thai submarines would be able to launch cruise missiles against any passing US carrier group. If so this should guarantee that the first response of the US to any hint of hostilities with Thailand will be to sink any Thai submarine at sea, the next act will be to flatten the docking and maintenance facilities. All before breakfast probably.

Edited July 31, 2015 by JAG

[yuv06]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

Actually Thai navy have been operating Chinese cruise missiles for more than 2 decades c801 and now c802 see vid test Thai Navy c801 with no war head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCeTYbMty1U

You are obviously well informed of there capabilities but do you think they will be able to maintain this programme for any length of time?? I'm not by the way having a go it's a genuine question?

I don't think it is an issue as they would have factored in the cost of maintenance for the entire life span of the sub which would be included in the annual Navy budget and the Navy ports now have been repairing and refurbishing Navy vessels for some time now even building as we saw with the HTMS Krabi the 2000 ton OPV designed by BAE Systems and I heard that they are in negotiations with BAE to build the OPV for export which is likely to be for neighboring countries.

[Nigeone]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

Actually Thai navy have been operating Chinese cruise missiles for more than 2 decades c801 and now c802 see vid test Thai Navy c801 with no war head

You are obviously well informed of there capabilities but do you think they will be able to maintain this programme for any length of time?? I'm not by the way having a go it's a genuine question?

I don't think it is an issue as they would have factored in the cost of maintenance for the entire life span of the sub which would be included in the annual Navy budget and the Navy ports now have been repairing and refurbishing Navy vessels for some time now even building as we saw with the HTMS Krabi the 2000 ton OPV designed by BAE Systems and I heard that they are in negotiations with BAE to build the OPV for export which is likely to be for neighboring countries.

So what's the reason for planes for the carriers. That has to be budget surely as suitable planes are available! It seems that they have been without suitable hardwear for the carrier for quite awhile. And the ones that came with the carrier are all out of action or canablised

[yuv06]

USD1 billion is cheap considering it is for the defense of the country lets put it this way the rice scheme could have bought 60 submarines

This isn't about defense of a country it's about egos and back handlers. If Thailand was ever threatened the big boys and particularly USA would soon step in and the Thai navy would just be in the way. The UK and USA submarine hardwear and weaponry is so far advanced to anything that China is going to be happy to sell Thailand. As people have said though the Mercedes dealerships are going to be happy ! As is the Mia Nois

To be frank the west did not provide subs with the ability to launch cruise missiles the subs that could launch cruise missiles are Vietnamese Kilo and Malaysian subs and the Chinese subs that are offered to Thai Navy

I understand what your saying but there's many reasons why they wouldn't want to offer the Thai navy those assets. The lean towards China by the Thais and I would imagine the future capabilities of the Thais to safely and successfully operate the hardware would be to me a big consideration. This really has disaster written all over it on so many levels. Just look at the maintenance and success of the Aircraft carrier and the Thai Air Force. Mmmm the Thai navy with cruise missile capabilities . That doesn't bear thinking about.

Actually Thai navy have been operating Chinese cruise missiles for more than 2 decades c801 and now c802 see vid test Thai Navy c801 with no war head

You are obviously well informed of there capabilities but do you think they will be able to maintain this programme for any length of time?? I'm not by the way having a go it's a genuine question?

I don't think it is an issue as they would have factored in the cost of maintenance for the entire life span of the sub which would be included in the annual Navy budget and the Navy ports now have been repairing and refurbishing Navy vessels for some time now even building as we saw with the HTMS Krabi the 2000 ton OPV designed by BAE Systems and I heard that they are in negotiations with BAE to build the OPV for export which is likely to be for neighboring countries.

So what's the reason for planes for the carriers. That has to be budget surely as suitable planes are available! It seems that they have been without suitable hardwear for the carrier for quite awhile. And the ones that came with the carrier are all out of action or canablised

Well it is now the next best thing a Helicopter carrier

[Yahooka]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

And these countries and countries with shallow waters around the North Sea has submarines also. But they are used in a pro active way out in the deep seas(as intelligence collectors etc.) , many times in waters far away from their own shorelines.They mission is not to sit stuck in the mud in shallow waters protecting harbours.

[sunshine51]

The RTN amazes me to no end. Submarines eh...

Why not buy some shallow draft fast costal patrol boats

from China instead? Makes more sense IMO & that's

what I think is a much better option. Then again I don't

figure in kickbacks & the evil "face" thing into my picture.

36 Billion Baht...that's a heap of money that could be better

utilised elsewhere in this country on more deserving

projects previously mentioned in this thread & more

that haven't been mentioned.

Some years back the Royal Navy put their latest hi-tech

sub, HMS Astute on the mud off the Isle of Skye and that

was a huge embarrasment for the RN. And I reckon the

RN has a lot more experience operating subs than the RTN

does. 1.2 billion sterling stuck in the mud...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322817/Royal-Navy-shame-nuclear-submarine-HMS-Astute-left-high-dry-Scottish-coast.html

For some strange reason I keep hearing the Dire Straits song Money for Nothing

playing in my head except the lead line is "I want my submarine" instead

of "I want my MTV"...

Oh well...I recommend that the good admiral check out this sub for sale...

complete with screen door...