Interesting Straight Dope column about Thailand - Why are there so many "ladyboys" in Thailand?

[AlexRRR]

It has always been a big question mark for me... Buddhism does not explain all. Not only Thailand is Buddhist but it is only in Thailand that you can see that huge proportion of ladyboys. There must be some rational explanations. Food might be one. More exactly food poisoning with all the chemicals and pesticides they use here...

But in all cases, I believe Thailand is the only country in the World with this huge proportion of ladyboys and transgenders.

What a load of rubbish, Food??? my god.......Plastic?.....laughable........ its how they were born, you know 24 hrs before being born on the assembly line up there behind the pearly gates the production staff putting together the latest batch of humans worked off the latest work order created by the big honchos ....this one is straight....in goes that DNA and this ones BI...etc etc....

There more visible in Thailand because there accepted unlike elsewhere, ive seen them walking downtown in Melbourne and Sydney, seen a few transgender profiles on dating sites over the years too here in AU, there around just underground.

[AlexRRR]

This is a completely personal belief that has no scientific evidence. But whenever i listen to a thai male speak thai. To me it comes across as quite feminine. The sounds are soft and there are no firm sounds.

Ive spoken a few thai words and i feel quite 'feminine' speaking them.

Maybe remotely the language's sounds contributing to the higher then usual ladyboy/gay phenemon

you have spoken Thai ands now you have found out your GAY thank you for coming out in this forum....

[AlexRRR]

I think becasue daddys nut sack over heats, in the midday sun, Mammy wants a girl, they get a boy then dress him in a frock and call him gloria, he grows up confused, Just my thinking,

Thinking is not one of your strengths.

[AlexRRR]

Years ago when i was a student. There was a thai exchange student and we got to know eachtoehr and one day i asked her . Why so many ladyboys in thailand?

To which she replied "because its trendy"

I rmemebr being shocked and thinking to myself "<deleted>. I dont care how trendy it is. Im not attracted to men. Im just not going to change sides because its trendy"

Maybe it is line of thinkijng that we non thai people dont understand!

You don't know Thais very well.....they never will admit they don't know....always helpful......forgot how many miles i covered walking around Paragon and Centre World looking for photoshop for pc.

[AlexRRR]

Soy? That's silly.

It's all about the money. What can you make as a ladyboy vs. what you can make not being a ladyboy. And it's easy, pleasurable work, for some. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Yes soy is silly and so is the money and easy and pleasurable.................are there really that many dopie guys TV?

[PaullyW]

Some good ideas here. I would add that there has typically been a conspicuous lack of proper male/father figures in many, many families. Also, lacking of high numbers of male role models. So, little boys growing up are raised by only women and emulate women

[Toknarok]

Remember this? The BBC banned it not because it refers to ladyboys but for the words Coca-Cola. My arse. I'll bet it wasn't banned in Thailand.

[DavidBonnie]

I thought it worth responding to this article. I notice this question is asked an awful lot.

I am an academic and was featured alongside my Ladyboy girlfriend, Annie in two Sky television series called Ladyboys. You may have seen them? Initially the series was purposed to enlighten the general public and behave as a form of advocacy for Thai Ladyboys in their bid to gain legal status. Over time and as the series developed it became more like manna to the peanut crunching crowd milking their interest in prostitution. Sadly the series did not really answer many of the most pressing questions that are asked by the enquiring.

I do not claim that anything here is undisputable but I will attempt to answer as well as possible.

Thailand has the highest rate of Transsexuals throughout the world. According to some academics, the numbers differ from about 10,000 to (unofficially) 300,000. Even if the number of 10,000 is an accurate one, it would still represent an incidence substantially above that estimated for transgender people in most other parts of the world.

To explain the case for this high number of transsexuals, some academics refer to the impact of Buddhism in Thailand and how it leads to an understanding of transsexuals in the current day.

The terms ‘transsexual’ or ‘transgender’ are rarely used in Thailand. Instead, "Kathoey" is a common term. It was originally used for hermaphrodites (human being who have both sexes- male and female), but nowadays it is mainly used to describe the transgender male. Looking up the word "kathoey" in a Thai language dictionary, we get the following definition: ‘the characteristics of a kathoey is someone who cross-dresses (lakka-phet), a male who likes to act and dress like a woman and has a mind like a woman". Ladyboys themselves favour the term, Ladyboy over kathoey, considering it a politer form of address. Interestingly they use the catch-all term to include males who behave in a feminine way that in the West would be described as ‘camp’ this regardless of whether the individual has undergone surgery or not, has long hair or not or wears make-up and female clothes or not.

The number of kathoey in Thailand is surprising to the American or European traveler and the reasons for their number may, at least in part, lay in religion and religious attitudes in Thailand.

The main religion in Thailand is Buddhism. About 95% of the population are Buddhists who follow the rules of this religion in their everyday life. Thai- Buddhism is called Theravada Buddhism and it is a localized form of Buddhism which has it's origin in Indian Hinduism. The Thai form of Buddhism is not so much interested in the moral message of the Theravada as it is in auspiciousness, worldly continuity and the manipulation of saksit; supernatural or sacred power.

It is animistic and primitive and certainly pre-dates formal Buddhism. Animism encompasses the belief that there is no separation between the spiritual and physical (or material) world, and souls or spirits exist, not only in humans, but also in some other animals, trees, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment, including thunder, wind, and shadows.

Nang Tanee, the banana tree ghost, pictured below is sometimes depicted as a sexually voracious kathoey

According to practises in animistic folklore knowledge of a true name allows one to affect another person or being magically. It is stated that knowing someone's, or something's, true name therefore gives the person (who knows the true name) power over them. This explains a peculiarity of bullying amongst Thai children in the bully repeating the first name of the father or mother of another child. Thai children take this very seriously and can become very upset when this takes place.

Buddha and Ganesh images became seats of power because they are believed to carry a ‘tep’ or angel/spirit inside them and the practice of merit making has become a way ensuring prosperity and storing up ‘bhun’ or good kharma.

It is important to outline the beliefs of Thai-Buddhism to relate it to transsexuality in Thailand.

Taking a look at he basic scriptural canon of Buddhism in consideration of the high number of kathoey, one already notices that it differs a lot from the Christian religion that denounces all kinds of non-normative gender behaviour.
In Buddhism, there are at least 3 genders, not only male and female, but also bhatobyanjuanaka or hermaphrodite. Two scriptures mention an original man, woman and kathoey. The appearance of these 3 genders in scriptures considered holy could explain the toleration of kathoey and gender ambiguity in Thailand.
Buddhism believes, that all doings of the individual have an influence on his Kharma.

Kharma can be described as a form of spiritual bank account with entries representing one's credits and debits that are the consequences of an individual’s actions. The aim of every Buddhist is to gain enough Kharmic credit, or bhun so he or she will reach Nirvana and be enlightened.

Buddhism believes in the system of reincarnation in which each individual is reborn many times (up to several hundred times), until he reaches the final state, the Nirvana. This concept of reincarnation and Kharma is adopted from Hinduism and has been newly reinterpreted by Buddhism.

Another reason for the acceptance of kathoeys could be the fact, that there is a reason why people are born as kathoey. A person is re-born kathoey because they performed actions that violate sexual morals in their previous life (e.g. being a female prostitute or sexually abusing one's children) or failed to fulfil an expected role in the reproductive process, such as a man not caring for a woman who is pregnant by him or a beautiful woman whpo tempts a married man to infidelity.

Thai Buddhists believe that a person becoming kathoey is predetermined from birth and is the direct result of karmic debt or ‘gamm’ accumulated through misdeeds committed in a former life. Being born a kathoey is inevitable and is not a person's fault, at least in the life into which they are presently born. Kathoeys are commonly believed to be the victims of karmic consequences, consequences that may befall all of us in other lives.

It is very important to notice, that the common belief says that there is no escaping from the karmic consequences, and that everyone has been or will be kathoey. He should accept his fate since there are no further consequences arising from desire and actions that arise out of the state of being a kathoey. It might be acceptable for Buddhists to be born kathoey, because even Buddha must have been born as one at least once.

Homosexual activities are not considered sinful and do not affect a person's kharmic account.

There exists a paradox between Theravada Buddhism and the original Buddhism as in Theravada Buddhism it is also possible for a kathoey to reach Nirvana in his/her present life. However the animistic Buddhism says, that for a person to be enlightened after his present life, he or she has to be a male? A paradox indeed!

A general Thai view on transsexuals says, that they should be treated with compassion and that they should rather be pitied than judged, because of the account of suffering they have to endure by being born a kathoey.

Thai-Buddhism believes in the existence of spirits. They believe in the communication between human beings and spirits. Normally, this communication is only two-ways- either a female human contacts a female spirit, or a male human being contacts a male spirit. Being born as a kathoey means that one comprises both sexes, hence, is a male and a female at the same time. This fact leads to the assumption, that a kathoeys spiritual, communication skills are superior. The transgender person can contact both- male- and female spirits. This leads to more prestige for the kathoey in the Thai-society as a mystic, witch or shaman.

I should be clear that anomalies exist within the general acceptance of kathoeys in Thailand as this article discusses: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/16/monks-try-to-teach-maleness-to-thai-ladyboys/

Schools also often discourage young gender ambiguous boys from exploring their femininity further.

So there are several reasons to explain the large numbers of Kathoey in Thailand. Due to the belief in the existence of Kharma and ones helplessness being born in a certain way, those people who feel they are gender ambiguous are free to pursue the gender role that is fulfilling for them without persecution. This tolerance exists because of the general belief in reincarnation and specifically that every person is born a Kathoey at least once in his or her many lives.

Anecdotally, at least, gay men who adopt a masculine role and remain 'in the closet' are considered deceptive and engender distrust. Regardless of dress, hair length or cosmetic surgery all flamboyant, 'camp' gay men are considered as Ladyboys by other Ladyboys. It is likely that repression, judgment and hatred so common and cruelly directed in the west and many other societies reduces the number of trans sexuals in those countries rather than the numbers in Thailand being inflated beyond the 'norm'. Cases like Caitlyn Jenner are not typical of western transgender people who suffer prejudice and even murder in the west.

Cultural tolerance, Buddhism and Thai physiology all lend themselves to the perceived proliferation of Ladyboys. The sex industry supports a demographic that is usually even more 'outside' normal society and less able to be socially mobile.

And lastly, although I would question the widespread belief, that Kathoeys can reach nirvana after the present life as well as the belief in the existence of spirits, leading to a greater reputation of ladyboys.

Although these ideas offer an understanding of the tolerant attitude of Thai's towards transsexuals, it does not address their visibility in everyday life. Tolerance is not visibility. Even though the number of Kathoey is surprising, and they are broadly accepted, they could also be invisible. Globalization and information awareness has perhaps led to an increase in tourism, virtual or physical in this region. Entertainment centres in the tourist areas of Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket are key to an understanding of the Ladyboy profile.

The commercialization of Transgenderism in Thailand makes the phenomenon visible in a socially acceptable form. Thailand’s Tourism Authority lists Alcazar and Tiffany’s Ladyboy cabarets on their website and the novelty of seeing men who are even more beautiful than actual women is a major family friendly draw for tourists.

Prostitution, although illegal is highly visible and is a result of the economic disparity between the west and Thailand that despite the global depression still exists. Kathoeys are simply a part of the larger whole that is prostitution in Thailand.

So while Thai-Buddhism is the reason for the acceptance and tolerance of kathoeys, as well as the ambiguity regarding gender in Thailand, it is globalisation and tourism that have precipitated the visibility of kathoeys in the region.

To see more go to www.davidbonnie.com

[dageurreotype]

Soy? That's silly.

It's all about the money. What can you make as a ladyboy vs. what you can make not being a ladyboy. And it's easy, pleasurable work, for some. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Yes soy is silly and so is the money and easy and pleasurable.................are there really that many dopie guys TV?

Yes.

[Thongkorn]

I think becasue daddys nut sack over heats, in the midday sun, Mammy wants a girl, they get a boy then dress him in a frock and call him gloria, he grows up confused, Just my thinking,

Thinking is not one of your strengths.

No but spotting chicks with dicks or Pork swords is.

[farang000999]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

If you get out of the cities most of the chicken they eat is raised in the village without any hormones or any kind of drugs at all. There is a very high percentage of lady boys here in the rural areas...and I will bet a good many f them in the city and other sex tourist come from rural Thailand, just like many of the bar girls do.

Can you please explain how any diet can mutate chromosomes?

Is this new science or just something you came up with?

I believe DNA and chromosomes are established before birth and can't be altered after birth.

The best theory to date is that a hormone unbalance in the mothers womb can cause a male foetus to develop a female brain and visa versa for the female foetus. This theory is based on the level of Testosterone in the early development of the foetus. Too much and the female foetus develops a male brain and too little and a male foetus will develop a female brain. This hasn't been proven yet but it does make sense.

Complete nonsense.

[cooked]

I don't have a dog in this fight but what saddens me is that I think I am becoming immune to the hate filled, bigoted rubbish that gets spouted on TV every day. Lets look at what some of the learned scholars have thrown up. They are ladyboys because.... hormone imbalance, plastic, chemicals, pesticides, soy milk and my favourite and probably the stupidest comment ever made about katoeys "they do it for the money". Yes because some young boy in Isaan wakes up and thinks I know, I will identify with the opposite gender and start dressing and living like a woman, maybe undergo a couple of (countless?) painful surgeries to alter my body, take hormones daily and then prostitute myself to make a few extra baht because apparently " it's easy, pleasurable work" yeah right. We should turn the clock back 70 years for some of you, so you can go back to wearing white hoods and burning crosses. These are probably the same mental giants that think people in the LGBT community "choose" to be gay or bi, because life isn't hard enough with out "choosing" to expose yourself to ridicule, bigotry, prejudice, violence and possibly the non-acceptance of who you are by friends, family and society in general. You need to get your own house in order before you start judging others. If people aren't hurting themselves or anyone else, are happy and living life who really cares what their colour, religion or sexual orientation ? For <deleted> sake live and let live I say. Rant over

I am not so self opinionated as to be able to throw around words like bigoted. I do indeed know of a lad (neighbour) who told his mother he wants to be a Katoey. Why? Basically because he is too stupid and lazy to do anything else. He sure as f*** doesn't want to work in the rice fields. Now his main occupation is lying around not being a Katoey. Same reason that many ladies go to Pattaya. It is, as so well expressed above, a part of the Thai mentality to accept this kind of behaviour.

The percentage of Katoeys that go for the unkindest cut of all is small. The majority of customers in Pattaya are Farangs or other foreigners that want to be on the receiving end of their new friend's attentions so they tend to hang on to that. The Katoey next door (I danced with him at my wedding) spent time in jail for killing an Australian lover.

I don't know many, just the ones in the village when they get back from Phuket or wherever, they are just as much on the make as any of the girls that go down there regularly.

They all look like men with make up to me. Quite a few are grotesquely ugly, maybe this is the only way they can get some fun and earn money at the same time.

Enjoy it? It beats working.

[green job]

Most are gays in drag,,,, Good earner, dont have to work.

[Toknarok]

Living here in Isaan (Buriram) I see them all the time. In the small village where I live (155 houses) there are at least three.

Which one is your favourite..?

None of them I assure you. Sodomising men with tits doesn't appeal to me at all.

[daoyai]

My opinion, transex types are most likely the same percentage in most places but as asian males are often of slighter build and have less facial hair they are more able to look female so they feel less self concious about dressing female in public. A big hairy westerner may feel just as much that they are a woman trapped in a mans body but when they dress as a lady it just looks awful so they just do it in private. Coupled with the fact their culture may not tolerate it. In Hawai'i and Samoa where big boned women are common, big boned men can go in public as women, in Hawai'i they are known as "mahu".

[DavidBonnie]

It's interesting that lots of men who come to Thailand for some kind of freedom feel they have room to make negative remarks about ladyboys.

Not pointing a finger at anyone in particular but it is amusing and a little sad to see those people whom one would imagine have more open minds, considering they have freed themselves from the more traditional constraints of western society and are 'living beyond the pale, exhibiting the same toxic racist and transphobic behaviours one expects from the worst bigots Britain has to offer.

Perhaps they have forgotten that living in Pattaya with an ex bargirl or living in the Isaan hinterland and marrying a jungle dweller are acts that 'normal' society considers inappropriate. I suggest that all of us have more in common with ladyboys than we do with members of normal society in our home countries, after all we are living on the accepted edge of society both of our home countries and as immigrants here in Thailand. Perhaps we farangs and ladyboys are the most reviled of all people here?

The macho posturing and name calling is just boring and the resort of the morbidly moronic.

Gender is the most fundamental part of one's identity as a human being.

The very first question everyone asks about us is "Is it a boy or a girl?"

Important though it is, most people never think much about gender. They have no idea what causes their sense of being a boy or a girl, a man or a woman.

Having never suffered mis-gendering, they take their gender for granted like the air that they breathe, never giving it a second thought.

But some apparently normal boys aren't boys at all! They feel they should have been girls. Although they have normal XY genes, normal male genitalia, and are raised as boys, they nevertheless have the gender feelings, body feelings and gender identity of girls.

Perhaps once in every 200 to 400 births something must go amiss in the early stages of pregnancy so that sex hormones do not have the usual action on the integration of the fetus's brain. In these cases, children are born having a brain-sex (neurological sex) and innate gender identity opposite to that indicated both by their genes and their genitalia.

Since these infants look normal, they will be raised in the wrong gender for their brain-sex (neurological sex). Being raised in the wrong gender causes them profound gender dysphoria or disequilibrium and mental anguish as they grow up. In many more cases, perhaps as many as one out of every 50 children, it appears that the "transgendering effect" is less pronounced but still present to some degree - and this occurs in both boys and girls.

Many of these transgender children will have major adjustment problems if forced into too strict a gender role. In the west there is no social script for such a boy to tell someone "I feel like I'm a girl", and to get active assistance with their gender problem. Instead, transgender youngsters often pick up the idea from parents and school-mates that they are "going to be gay men".

Some may later even try to "become gay" and be accepted in the gay male community but gay men seek men as partners, not people whose gender identity is female. The last thing in the world that an MtF youngster could ever become is a gay male who is into his masculinity and his male parts even more than the average guy.

Try imagining being born this way . . .