Indonesia's Jokowi renews call for independent Palestine

[webfact]

Jokowi renews call for independent Palestine

JAKARTA: -- Indonesian President Joko Widodo has again expressed his support for an independent Palestine, urging participants of the Muhammadiyah congress he opened on Monday to speak out on the matter, The Jakarta Globe reported.

In a speech to members of Muhammadiyah, Joko said Indonesia as the state with the largest Muslim population in the world must dare to voice support for Palestinian independence.

Muhammadiyah, which is the second-largest socio-religious organization in Indonesia, after Nahdlatul Ulama, is holding its 47th leadership congress this week in Makassar, South Sulawesi.

The president also said he hoped that the faithful would use their nation’s growing prominence on the international stage to showcase how peace and harmony can be achieved amid ethnic, religious and cultural diversity.

A statement to support an independent Palestine was issued and agreed upon at the Asian-African Conference held in Bandung earlier this year.

Before Joko and Vice President Jusuf Kalla were elected last year, they said they would open an Indonesian embassy in the West Bank city of Ramallah, while also calling for closer ties with Israel. Indonesia has no diplomatic relations with Israel.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/jokowi-renews-call-for-independent-palestine


-- Thai PBS 2015-08-04

[Linky]

I dont like Indonesia at all and would never contemplate living there, but many muslims and non muslims do. Has over 60,000 christian churches, homosexuality has never been illegal, multicultural and diverse. But not for me, cant stand the place.

But good on them for Wanting an independent Palestinian state, most of the world already agrees and have recognised thePalestinian state.

[DeaconJohn]

I dont like Indonesia at all and would never contemplate living there, but many muslims and non muslims do. Has over 60,000 christian churches, homosexuality has never been illegal, multicultural and diverse. But not for me, cant stand the place.

But good on them for Wanting an independent Palestinian state, most of the world already agrees and have recognised thePalestinian state.

An Indonesian Embassy in Ramallah is a good first step and will hopefully be followed by other Muslim and non-Muslim countries.

International recognition and support for Palestine along with support for Israeli moderates is the only way to put an end to this never-ending conflict.

[Seastallion]

Great.

I can see Israel will try to block any embassy building....They will hate it!. But now Indonesia has started the ball rolling, at the very least there will be more publicity on the issues.

[ABCer]

Yeah, " put an end to this never-ending conflict".

So "Joko said Indonesia as the state with the largest Muslim population in the world must dare to voice support for Palestinian independence".

So, he dared to voice. Congratulations!

Israelis and Palestinians of Gaza will need something much more constructive than his daring.

Meanwhile the conflict remains a never-ending one. It is up to the people to really want to end it.

In the atmosphere of hostile mistrust and open mutual hatred I see no real end.

Edited August 4, 2015 by ABCer

[Lissos]

An Indonesian Embassy in Ramallah is a good first step

Assumes that Ramallah is a 'coolbed' of moderation. Not quite.

...along with support for Israeli moderates

Rejection / Blanking of others, then.

(If) certain factions in Israel are to be deemed 'extreme, then in order to apply this equally, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others surely get rejected too and get no voice in the future,yes?

Because, as with elements in Israel, the Islamist won't just quietly depart.

[DeaconJohn]

Great.

I can see Israel will try to block any embassy building....They will hate it!. But now Indonesia has started the ball rolling, at the very least there will be more publicity on the issues.

Agreed.

The radical Zionists will obstruct any foreign embassies being established in Palestine.

It is up to the international community to respond with economic and political sanctions until the dream of Eretz Israel is consigned to history, and the Israelis live within their 1967 borders.

[konying]

East Timor , yes very peaceful and harmonious.

[konying]

Great.

I can see Israel will try to block any embassy building....They will hate it!. But now Indonesia has started the ball rolling, at the very least there will be more publicity on the issues.

Lol, who or what is Indonesia ? Oh wait the factory producing terrorists , I keep forgetting.

How about East Timor ? May be Israel should follow Indonesian example?

[Seastallion]

An Indonesian Embassy in Ramallah is a good first step

Assumes that Ramallah is a 'coolbed' of moderation. Not quite.

...along with support for Israeli moderates

Rejection / Blanking of others, then.

(If) certain factions in Israel are to be deemed 'extreme, then in order to apply this equally, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others surely get rejected too and get no voice in the future,yes?

Because, as with elements in Israel, the Islamist won't just quietly depart.

Ramallah is a perfect place to establish several embassies...Israel would have to mind it's manners within sight of all of them.

"Extremist" is a matter of opinion, a point of view. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

If Israel played things wisely (not that it wants to), Hamas would die either a slow death of attrition or a quick one of violence. here's how; Make a good deal with the PA. Support the formation of a Palestinian state. Once those two things are in place, the PA will be supported by both the UN and Israel to conquer Hamas, IF it does not die of attrition. Dying of attrition is a big possibility because a good deal made by PA will get hundreds of thousands of ex-Hamas supporters on side.

[DeaconJohn]

Great.

I can see Israel will try to block any embassy building....They will hate it!. But now Indonesia has started the ball rolling, at the very least there will be more publicity on the issues.

Lol, who or what is Indonesia ? Oh wait the factory producing terrorists , I keep forgetting.

How about East Timor ? May be Israel should follow Indonesian example?

You're deliberately confusing the issue.

Similar things could be said about almost any country in the world.

[Lissos]

here's how; Make a good deal with the PA......

Let me guess, the only acceptable 'good deal' before moving on to stage two is Israel giving up East Jerusalem and the Old City? Crucial question, because the 'bigger' momentum against Israel is not nationalism but reconquest of a land and city formely conquered in history itself by Islam in the 600s CE.

It is a sentiment not only found in hardcore Islamists but in online lectures given by claimed 'moderate' Muslims in Europe and the U.S who clarify that this is not something about 'deals / compromise / sharing'.

Mythology of Nakba is one thing, but the loss of Bayt al Maqdis to the Jews (of all people) is considered the 'real' disaster, and they dream about a reconquista of their own. Conveniently, it happens to be a thread running through what can 'appear' to only be nationalists, all the way up to Islamist factions such as Ansar Bayt al Maqdis (guess what they are obsessed with?) over in Sinai at the moment, allying with ISIS' vision. Add in Islamic Jihad and others. Hamas is increasingly being seen by the others as losing the fire in the belly, becoming soft with truces and other things.

Proposals include building up 'seemingly' secular driven Arab nationalism orientated factions such as PA, to overshadow the multitudes of Islamist factions out there in the world for whom this is not about nationalism, not solely about al Quds, but a wholesale reconquista of 'anything' the Jews currently control or inhabit in the area. (If) I could believe these factions would wither away with - "shucks" if the PA gain political control of East Jerusalem and the Old City, and would stand down and recognise secular control of it by PA as legitimate, the proposal sounds logical.

However, I don't believe either. Every secular Arab leader who has taken pressure off Israel is sooner or later written off as an apostate, a stooge, a betrayer. Nobody would unite against Hamas. DeaconJohn wants to put Eretz Israel to bed forever in order to achieve peace, but is he equally determined to put the Islamist reconquista agenda to sleep simultaneously?

Sorry, too many Wolves in Sheeps clothing are out there, along with wolves.

Israel will choose as it sees fit, but I doubt East Jerusalem and the Old City will be given over after some promise that now the PA will set its sights on finishing off Hamas and a plethora of Jihadist orientated factions. It neither has the resources nor inclination to even attempt it, and along the way they will have reconquered Jerusalem by 'stealth Jihad'.

[konying]

Great.

I can see Israel will try to block any embassy building....They will hate it!. But now Indonesia has started the ball rolling, at the very least there will be more publicity on the issues.

Lol, who or what is Indonesia ? Oh wait the factory producing terrorists , I keep forgetting.

How about East Timor ? May be Israel should follow Indonesian example?

You're deliberately confusing the issue.

Similar things could be said about almost any country in the world.

No, I am not confusing the issue. And no similar things can not be said about almost any country

[Steely Dan]

At present Hamas are under real pressure from ISIS, just as they in turn are trying to usurp the Palestinian authority on the West Bank. Overseas platitudes seem to happen in a vacuum taking no account of the fact that no body with a current election mandate speaks for the Palestinians. There is a danger that foreign embassies to the mythical nation of Palestine may end up in ISIS controlled territory. If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

[dexterm]

At present Hamas are under real pressure from ISIS, just as they in turn are trying to usurp the Palestinian authority on the West Bank. Overseas platitudes seem to happen in a vacuum taking no account of the fact that no body with a current election mandate speaks for the Palestinians. There is a danger that foreign embassies to the mythical nation of Palestine may end up in ISIS controlled territory. If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

Congratulations Indonesia for the first step in creating facts on the ground.

Palestine is not mythical...70% of the world's countries recognize the state of Palestine...with more to follow. You are the wrong side of history.

"As of 30 October 2014, 135 (69.9%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognised the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognise the State of Palestine nevertheless recognise the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people". On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed a motion changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member observer state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

Don't be silly...even the USA does not have its embassy in Occupied Jerusalem.

[Credo]

At present Hamas are under real pressure from ISIS, just as they in turn are trying to usurp the Palestinian authority on the West Bank. Overseas platitudes seem to happen in a vacuum taking no account of the fact that no body with a current election mandate speaks for the Palestinians. There is a danger that foreign embassies to the mythical nation of Palestine may end up in ISIS controlled territory. If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

Congratulations Indonesia for the first step in creating facts on the ground.

Palestine is not mythical...70% of the world's countries recognize the state of Palestine...with more to follow. You are the wrong side of history.

<snipped>

Well, roughly 80% of the world believe in a god and that's probably mythical as well.

[Seastallion]

here's how; Make a good deal with the PA......

Let me guess, the only acceptable 'good deal' before moving on to stage two is Israel giving up East Jerusalem and the Old City? Crucial question, because the 'bigger' momentum against Israel is not nationalism but reconquest of a land and city formely conquered in history itself by Islam in the 600s CE.

It is a sentiment not only found in hardcore Islamists but in online lectures given by claimed 'moderate' Muslims in Europe and the U.S who clarify that this is not something about 'deals / compromise / sharing'.

Mythology of Nakba is one thing, but the loss of Bayt al Maqdis to the Jews (of all people) is considered the 'real' disaster, and they dream about a reconquista of their own. Conveniently, it happens to be a thread running through what can 'appear' to only be nationalists, all the way up to Islamist factions such as Ansar Bayt al Maqdis (guess what they are obsessed with?) over in Sinai at the moment, allying with ISIS' vision. Add in Islamic Jihad and others. Hamas is increasingly being seen by the others as losing the fire in the belly, becoming soft with truces and other things.

Proposals include building up 'seemingly' secular driven Arab nationalism orientated factions such as PA, to overshadow the multitudes of Islamist factions out there in the world for whom this is not about nationalism, not solely about al Quds, but a wholesale reconquista of 'anything' the Jews currently control or inhabit in the area. (If) I could believe these factions would wither away with - "shucks" if the PA gain political control of East Jerusalem and the Old City, and would stand down and recognise secular control of it by PA as legitimate, the proposal sounds logical.

However, I don't believe either. Every secular Arab leader who has taken pressure off Israel is sooner or later written off as an apostate, a stooge, a betrayer. Nobody would unite against Hamas. DeaconJohn wants to put Eretz Israel to bed forever in order to achieve peace, but is he equally determined to put the Islamist reconquista agenda to sleep simultaneously?

Sorry, too many Wolves in Sheeps clothing are out there, along with wolves.

Israel will choose as it sees fit, but I doubt East Jerusalem and the Old City will be given over after some promise that now the PA will set its sights on finishing off Hamas and a plethora of Jihadist orientated factions. It neither has the resources nor inclination to even attempt it, and along the way they will have reconquered Jerusalem by 'stealth Jihad'.

I'm glad you see the proposal as logical.

It's not that they would wither away with "shucks", and I was only talking about Hamas, they'd wither away with a gnashing of teeth as their support base dwindled. Peace, no foreign military law, children not being raided in the middle of the night, properly equipped schools, fishing fleets venturing out past over-fished waters, building permits for wells (water, WOW!), and a myriad of other benefits would be far too attractive for the vast majority for them to want to lose it all and go back to the occupied days.

Also, with statehood, Palestine gets official recognition....just let ISIS or any other organisation try to get in there and not only Israel, but the UN would be there in a flash supporting Palestine against them.

[gamini]

An Indonesian Embassy in Ramallah is a good first step

Assumes that Ramallah is a 'coolbed' of moderation. Not quite.

...along with support for Israeli moderates

Rejection / Blanking of others, then.

(If) certain factions in Israel are to be deemed 'extreme, then in order to apply this equally, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others surely get rejected too and get no voice in the future,yes?

Because, as with elements in Israel, the Islamist won't just quietly depart.

Indonesia is a secular country not the kind of Islamist you imply. They completely reject hamas Islamic Jihad and Sharia law. So get your facts straight before you post!

[gamini]

I dont like Indonesia at all and would never contemplate living there, but many muslims and non muslims do. Has over 60,000 christian churches, homosexuality has never been illegal, multicultural and diverse. But not for me, cant stand the place.

But good on them for Wanting an independent Palestinian state, most of the world already agrees and have recognised thePalestinian state.

Strange, because I love the country and the people. But I guess you are like many posters who bash Thailnd too.

[dexterm]

At present Hamas are under real pressure from ISIS, just as they in turn are trying to usurp the Palestinian authority on the West Bank. Overseas platitudes seem to happen in a vacuum taking no account of the fact that no body with a current election mandate speaks for the Palestinians. There is a danger that foreign embassies to the mythical nation of Palestine may end up in ISIS controlled territory. If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

Congratulations Indonesia for the first step in creating facts on the ground.

Palestine is not mythical...70% of the world's countries recognize the state of Palestine...with more to follow. You are the wrong side of history.

<snipped>

Well, roughly 80% of the world believe in a god and that's probably mythical as well.

False analogy fallacy.

What's belief in God got to do with UN or Indonesian recognition of Palestine? Pure deflection.

[Lissos]

Indonesia is a secular country not the kind of Islamist you imply. They completely reject hamas Islamic Jihad and Sharia law. So get your facts straight before you post!

What are you talking about? I suggest reading 'my' post properly, before posting.

[Credo]

At present Hamas are under real pressure from ISIS, just as they in turn are trying to usurp the Palestinian authority on the West Bank. Overseas platitudes seem to happen in a vacuum taking no account of the fact that no body with a current election mandate speaks for the Palestinians. There is a danger that foreign embassies to the mythical nation of Palestine may end up in ISIS controlled territory. If Indonesia want formal diplomatic relations with Israel they are welcome I suggest an embassy in the capital Jerusalem.

Congratulations Indonesia for the first step in creating facts on the ground.

Palestine is not mythical...70% of the world's countries recognize the state of Palestine...with more to follow. You are the wrong side of history.

<snipped>

Well, roughly 80% of the world believe in a god and that's probably mythical as well.

False analogy fallacy.

What's belief in God got to do with UN or Indonesian recognition of Palestine? Pure deflection.

I have to disagree. It's not a country. Recognize what you will, but it is a myth. A nebulous enigma of victimization and martyr syndrome.

[Lissos]

I'm glad you see the proposal as logical.

In an ideal simple world it would be, but my post argued that it isn't.

You are presenting all this essentially as a good way to repel ISIS.

I happen to notice it requires age old demands against Israel, to be granted.

[Steely Dan]

There is something going on behind the scenes here, which is alluded to in the mention of relations with Israel. Here is a Qatar based article, so clearly no friend of Israel.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/indonesia-s-two-faces-israel-palestine-1822382125

It mentions the 18% growth in trade between Israel and Indonesia. Such things are kept quiet, but it is another epic BDS fail and shows how economic considerations over time are likely to moderate Indonesia in its approach to Israel. I believe the platitudes directed towards Palestine in the O.P are all froth with little or no actual end product.

[ezzra]

I dont like Indonesia at all and would never contemplate living there, but many muslims and non muslims do. Has over 60,000 christian churches, homosexuality has never been illegal, multicultural and diverse. But not for me, cant stand the place.

But good on them for Wanting an independent Palestinian state, most of the world already agrees and have recognised thePalestinian state.

That might be so, but dose Palestine want to be free from Israel and be an independent state?

right now, Israel supply them with all most all the basic needs for living, and the world and the

UN are pouring billions into the corrupt and fragmented Palestinian society, will they be able

to remove and stop all that and cease to suck on the world's tits for sympathy and funds once

they're independent?

[gamini]

Indonesia is a secular country not the kind of Islamist you imply. They completely reject hamas Islamic Jihad and Sharia law. So get your facts straight before you post!

What are you talking about? I suggest reading 'my' post properly, before posting.

sorry, this was in reply to another post. Somehow it got on yours. My PC is playing up and I am buying a new one when I can get one with Win 10

[dexterm]

I dont like Indonesia at all and would never contemplate living there, but many muslims and non muslims do. Has over 60,000 christian churches, homosexuality has never been illegal, multicultural and diverse. But not for me, cant stand the place.

But good on them for Wanting an independent Palestinian state, most of the world already agrees and have recognised thePalestinian state.

That might be so, but dose Palestine want to be free from Israel and be an independent state?

right now, Israel supply them with all most all the basic needs for living, and the world and the

UN are pouring billions into the corrupt and fragmented Palestinian society, will they be able

to remove and stop all that and cease to suck on the world's tits for sympathy and funds once

they're independent?

but dose Palestine want to be free from Israel and be an independent state?

With independence Palestinians would love to be free of the misery and injustices caused by Israeli occupation...more atrocities committed this weekend.

But you are quite right, I envisage a symbiotic win win situation for Israel and Palestine. Intertwined economies ....and with a prosperous Palestine intertwined defense too against hostile elements such as IS. They would both have too much to lose.

Study: Israelis, Palestinians Would Gain Billions From Peace

Israelis and Palestinians would gain billions of dollars from making peace with each other while both would face daunting economic losses in case of other alternatives, particularly in case of a return to violence, according to a new study released on Monday.

The RAND Corp., a U.S.-based nonprofit research organization, interviewed some 200 officials from the region and elsewhere during more than two years of research into the costs of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Its main finding was that following a peace agreement, Israelis stood to gain $120 billion over the course of a decade.

In contrast, the Israeli economy would lose some $250 billion in foregone economic opportunities in a return to violence, and the Palestinians would see their per-capita gross domestic product fall by as much as 46 percent, the report said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/study-israelis-palestinians-gain-billions-peace-31605331?

Edited August 4, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Sorry, thread full

Credo wrote.

.I have to disagree. It's not a country. Recognize what you will, but it is a myth.

Better tell 70% of the world's countries and the ICC that..

A nebulous enigma of victimization and martyr syndrome.

Not sure which country you are talking about now.

[Seastallion]

There is something going on behind the scenes here, which is alluded to in the mention of relations with Israel. Here is a Qatar based article, so clearly no friend of Israel.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/indonesia-s-two-faces-israel-palestine-1822382125

It mentions the 18% growth in trade between Israel and Indonesia. Such things are kept quiet, but it is another epic BDS fail and shows how economic considerations over time are likely to moderate Indonesia in its approach to Israel. I believe the platitudes directed towards Palestine in the O.P are all froth with little or no actual end product.

Epic fail, not so much. The trade is less than $1 million per week, $800 000 of which is Indonesian exports. So the Indonesians are making money, Israeli goods a mere $200 000 per week. Of Israel's $291 Billion GDP, that is a minuscule drop in the bucket. It's a few molecules of H2O.

And when you consider this from your link, "Israel’s economic interests cannot be separated from its political interests. In Tel Aviv’s view, Indonesia is not merely a country with an economic potential but also with a political weight. As a country with the largest Muslim population in the world, successfully building trust with Indonesia would be a golden opportunity for Israel to implement its expansion plan over Palestinian land.

In terms of trade, Indonesia should also watch with vigilance the potential benefits of its trade with Israel. It is very natural for Tel Aviv to provide special incentives for its economic partnership with Jakarta, so that Israeli products are much cheaper than other competitors...", and realise Israel is bending over for this trade, it becomes apparent that Israel is making nothing from it, and it may actually be costing Israel

Essentially, the trade is one-way, so not so much a fail for BDS.