US Citizens: FBAR Due Date Changed from June 30 to April 15.

[mesquite]

Buried in H.R.3236 - Surface Transportation and Veterans Health Care Choice Improvement Act of 2015. Now law.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/3236/text

"(11) The due date of FinCEN Report 114 (relating to Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) shall be April 15 with a maximum extension for a 6-month period ending on October 15 and with provision for an extension under rules similar to the rules in Treas. Reg. section 1.6081–5. For any taxpayer required to file such Form for the first time, any penalty for failure to timely request for, or file, an extension, may be waived by the Secretary."

[scatalyst]

How in the world did you find this important bit of info? Thanks for getting the word out by posting it here.

[mesquite]

You're welcome. A friend emailed it to me and he got it from someone else...

Note, though that maybe it's easier because now there will be an extension possible.

[Pib]

Yea, pretty sharp eye...specifically it's in Section 2006, ( b ), (11). A snapshot from the act is below...shows the quote already given in mesquite's post above.

And I usually do the Fincen114/FBAR "after" I submit my tax return by 15 April...and sometimes I get pretty close to that 15 April date. Guess I'l have to accelerate that in the future to ensure I can get both submitted in time.

I bet the U.S. Treasury requested the FBAR submission date to be sync'ed with the federal return submission date---I seriously doubt it was one of our elected officials who probably ain't got a clue what an FBAR is.

Too durn bad they just don't make that FBAR form part of the income tax submission versus a separate form submitted to a different website/address....oh well, that's the govt duplication/make-it-harder everyone approach.

[mesquite]

Yea, pretty sharp eye...specifically it's in Section 2006, ( b ), (11). A snapshot from the act is below...shows the quote already given in mesquite's post above.

And I usually do the Fincen114/FBAR "after" I submit my tax return by 15 April...and sometimes I get pretty close to that 15 April date. Guess I'l have to accelerate that in the future to ensure I can get both submitted in time.

I bet the U.S. Treasury requested the FBAR submission date to be sync'ed with the federal return submission date---I seriously doubt it was one of our elected officials who probably ain't got a clue what an FBAR is.

Too durn bad they just don't make that FBAR form part of the income tax submission versus a separate form submitted to a different website/address....oh well, that's the govt duplication/make-it-harder everyone approach.

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Yes, that is the section I quoted in my OP, and I would agree on the motivation. An extension option is a good idea

[Pib]

But it accelerates the reporting date from 30 June to 15 April. And if needing an extension to 15 October the process/justification may end up being easy "or hard." Time will tell once the devil in the regulation details become known.

[Tywais]

There is an automatic extension of 2 months (June 15) for filing your tax return if overseas. Wonder if that automatic extension for expats goes for FBAR also? I file my taxes closer to June and also my FBAR.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That'sa very good question about whether those living abroad will get the same two month extension that applies to tax filing.

Another good question -- after some years of publicizing the new requirement about FBAR to the U.S. expat community around the world, now they've changed the deadline date and made it EARLIER each year and not later.

I wonder how/if the government is going to get the word out about that pretty significant change and avoid having a lot of filers unknowingly miss the new deadline and face potential penalties because they didn't know it had been moved up???

[T_Dog]

And don't forget accounts in your wife's name that meet the criteria if filing a joint tax return. All in all, the April 15th filing date makes sense.

[mesquite]

There is an automatic extension of 2 months (June 15) for filing your tax return if overseas. Wonder if that automatic extension for expats goes for FBAR also? I file my taxes closer to June and also my FBAR.

Good question. The law does not appear to say that. I would not be surprised if they don't give an automatic extension the first year, then change the law and give it the next, after many fail to meet the April 15th deadline.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And don't forget accounts in your wife's name that meet the criteria if filing a joint tax return. All in all, the April 15th filing date makes sense.

That's an interesting issue. For 2015, I expect, my Thai wife (to be considered a Non Resident Alien by the IRS) and I will be filing "married filing jointly" for the first time, after having filed married filing separately before, with her having no U.S. income, so no filing for her. (Turns out, you cannot have/do Roth conversions from regular IRAs if you're married filing separately under IRS rules.)

So, I was wondering how that would work, in terms of: would her Thai bank balances need to be added to my own in terms of calculating whether we meet the $10,000 in foreign bank accounts threshold of FBAR in any year where we're married filing jointly, or would she have her own FBAR filing obligation if her Thai account balances reached $10,000 or above.

Here was the interesting answer the financial firm Creveling & Creveling provided in a recent blog post, quoting an IRS memo:

Does having an ITIN mean I'm subject to the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) or require that I file an annual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (Fbar)? Merely having an ITIN doesn't subject you to Fatca reporting rules (for 1040 filing) or Fbar filing (FinCEN Form 114 U.S. Treasury report filed online by June 30 each year). However, if you are a U.S. Resident Alien for income tax purposes (physically living in the U.S.), then you're subject to both Fatca and Fbar reporting and filing rules.

If you've chosen to be considered a U.S. Resident Alien under the MFJ special election, you're subject to Fatca reporting rules as part of your annual 1040 filing.

However, the rules are different for annual filing of the Fbar for NRAs who are only considered to be Resident Alien due to their spouse making an MFJ election. The BSA Compliance Department has confirmed by email ( [email protected]) that being considered a Resident Alien under the MFJ special election doesn't make you a U.S. resident for Fbar filing purposes.

http://crevelingandcreveling.com/blog-list/217-wsj-ask-an-expert-an-itin-primer-everything-you-need-to-know-about-us-individual-tax-identification-numbers.html

[Pib]

TallGuy,

From reviewing above info and the FBAR/FinCen filing requirements since your Thai wife is classified as a Non-Resident Alien only "for tax filing purposes" the FBAR requirement does not apply. Of course that's just based upon my read/my understanding of what I have read.

Actually she is not a true Non-Resident Alien...see this link for definition of Resident and Non-Resident Alien. The FBAR is for U.S. Citizens and U.S. Resident Aliens (like a Green Card holder), which your wife is neither except for that MFJ tax filing loophole..

Even the chart in your above link says a person filing as MFJ does not have to file an FBAR...snapshot below. And don't confuse a possible Form 8938 tax form filing requirement which is FATCA related with that of the separate FATCA FBAR/FinCen form...two different animals and different filing requirements/money levels/etc.

And here's a few quotes from the FBAR/FinCen details instructions talking who must file a report...please take not of "what a U.S. Person is." Basically a person needs to be a U.S. citizen or U.S. Resident, which your wife is neither.

Who Must File an FBAR. A United States person that has a financial interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. See General Definitions, to determine who is a United States person.

United States Person. United States person means United States citizens; United States residents; entities, including but not limited to, corporations, partnerships, or limited liability companies created or organized in the United States or under the laws of the United States; and trusts or estates formed under the laws of the United States.

Regarding your question as adding her assets to yours you would not do that unless it was a joint account...then it's not really totally her's as it's half yours. When a U.S. person determines if they must submit a FBAR or not they only count those accounts they have financial interest in or signature authority. In the case of your wife's bank account you have no legal financial interest in or signature authority over her accounts so they don't count toward the FBAR over $10K magic number.

Pib

[T_Dog]

Pib...Thanks for the post above. From what you say, it would appear that filing a joint tax return would not require reporting the sole accounts of a spouse that meet the 10K dollar level. That's good news!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe, what the Creveling blog is saying in summary is...

Regarding a Thai wife with a U.S. spouse living full-time in Thailand and doing their taxes married filing jointly:

--the Thai wife would NOT be subject to FBAR reporting, even if she had Thai bank assets over $10K in her name.

--But regarding the FATCA issue, I'm not clear, since all I've never paid much attention to that subject as the foreign financial assets threshold for a married couple living full-time outside the U.S. under FATCA is very high, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars U.S., if memory serves.

[JimGant]

Tall Guy

Pib nailed it. Your wife has no FBAR requirement, even tho' she has an ITIN and you file a married, filing jointly 1040 tax return. But she will show up on your FBAR, assuming you have a joint account, where she'll be the principal joint owner, and where they ask for her ITIN. But officially you're not filing a joint FBAR, as she has no FBAR requirement of her own -- thus no Form 114a needed (which would only be for your own files anyway). And even if she didn't have an ITIN, but was a joint account owner with you, she'd still be named as the principal joint account holder -- but her Thai ID or passport number would be used as identification on the FBAR form.

Kinda ironic that, even if she has no FBAR filing requirement, nor ITIN, if all the money in the joint account was originally hers, the whole amount still gets added with your individual accounts to bounce against the $10k threshold (and to be reported in full at max amount). FinCEN doesn't allocate joint amounts.

Not sure the new April 15 reporting date goes into effect next year. Sounds like it's for tax years beginning in 2016, thus April 15, 2017, is the new reporting date.

For tax years after Dec. 31, 2015, the Fincen 114 will now be due on April 15 and certain filers will be allowed an extension until Oct. 15.

Therefore, with this change, the Fincen 114 takes another step closer to being treated like an ordinary tax form. Perhaps it’ll eventually be combined with the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) form 8938; a suggestion made by the Taxpayer Advocate and several overseas American organizations.

That would be nice, with $50,000 being the new ceiling. Makes complete sense -- so don't hold your breath.

[JimGant]

But regarding the FATCA issue, I'm not clear, since all I've never paid much attention to that subject as the foreign financial assets threshold for a married couple living full-time outside the U.S. under FATCA is very high, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars U.S., if memory serves.

John, since with your wife having an ITIN you can file your tax return jointly, and since FATCA Form 8938 attaches to this tax return, it would be automatic that the attached Form 8938 gives you the married threshold of $400,000, not the single filer $200,000 threshold. Apple attachments to your orange 1040 are frowned upon.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes... re FATCA, I don't think we have to worry any time soon about having $400,000 or more in foreign financial assets. I'd never trust keeping that much money in Thailand. So no FATCA for us.

As for FBAR, right now, the wife and I don't have joint accounts, we have separate accounts pre-dating our marriage. And, I've been pretty careful up until now to stay below the $10K threshold for FBAR for my own individual Thai accounts. So, it's nice to learn and be clear that as things stand right now, she can have as much money as she wants in her solo accounts without triggering her own (or my) FBAR filing.

That's kind of the way I like it: no FBAR and no FATCA for us. And I'd like to keep it that way...at least for the forseeable future.

[Pib]

A couple of articles on this subject.

Link 1 from Wall Street Journal

Link 2 from Forbes. Note: This link also has a sublink taking about the usual tax return audit period doubling from 3 to 6 years in certain situations.. Although 3 years has been the "usual" statue of limitations the IRS has always been able to go back further depending on the possible tax violation. But I guess the change 3 to 6 year change makes it easier to look back further when it appears you have omitted over 25% of your gross income. Basically tweaks in the tax laws which could allow the IRS to look farther back when performing an audit.

[Pib]

Yes... re FATCA, I don't think we have to worry any time soon about having $400,000 or more in foreign financial assets. I'd never trust keeping that much money in Thailand. So no FATCA for us.

As for FBAR, right now, the wife and I don't have joint accounts, we have separate accounts pre-dating our marriage. And, I've been pretty careful up until now to stay below the $10K threshold for FBAR for my own individual Thai accounts. So, it's nice to learn and be clear that as things stand right now, she can have as much money as she wants in her solo accounts without triggering her own (or my) FBAR filing.

That's kind of the way I like it: no FBAR and no FATCA for us. And I'd like to keep it that way...at least for the forseeable future.

Yea, I use to think the same way until I decided I got tied of paying the U.S. Embassy $50/Bt1600 each year for an income affidavit (didn't like making the trip to the embassy either) for my retirement extension of stay renewal...plus I wanted to have an emergency pot of money in Thailand I could access "immediately/today/within hours/etc" if needed...plus savings accunt interest being paid in Thailand was a lot better than being paid in the U.S....still is.

So, I bought over an additional Bt800K (approx $23K) to invest in a fixed saving account to satisfy the immigration requirement of Bt800K in a Thai bank so I could use that route for income proof....the yearly bank letter only cost Bt100 and I get it issued in 5-10 minutes at the bank branch in the immigration building the same day I do my extension application...done it for 3 years now...will be doing it again next month. This account is in my name only per immigration and bank requirements.

For the the wife (dual Thai/US citizen) and me we have a combination of joint and single name accounts...excluding the Bt800K account above in my name, we keep the balances under $10K/Bt350K...actually I use a Bt300 max level) so the wife never has to submit a FBAR but I do since when adding in the Bt800K that takes me way over the $10K FBAR threshold. Her name as my spouse still goes on my FBAR since some of the joint accounts include her name, but she don't have to submit or report her one separate account which is way, way under $10K.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I've headed in the same direction, Pib... Only difference is, over time, I transferred over just enough to stay under the $10K FBAR threshold, and yet still give me a sizable, local rainy day baht fund, in addition to giving me the ability to do a combo method finance for my retirement extension -- if ever the monthly income route becomes a problem. Lately of course, the rising dollar vs the baht equation has made dealing with the monthly income requirement pretty much easier now than at any time since I've lived here.

But, re the Consulate, since I live about 10 minutes from there, I don't mind the annual trip. And frankly, for most of my time here, the $50 Consulate fee for their income affidavit would have been more than offset by better investment/financial returns on the pot of money involved by keeping it in the U.S. vs. moving it to Thailand.

[Rocketsurgeon]

I always have stayed under the ten K limit until I finally went with extension and not the O visa.

I simply listed wife on joint acct fbar, just a low B acct used to confer validity of our marriage here, set up for a IR1 visa if we decide to go back.

Easier for us to keep money separate now, if we move to usa we will merge more assets...

Wife has visit visa but not working usa, no green card. No social#. Sorry, there is a limit to my debt serfdom and patience.

I've listed her on fbar for joint acct but her accts is a bridge too far. I'm not a criminal, I'm just lazy. The lityle lady makes 20k a month f f s.

I'm filing three yrs back taxes going back to first year of marriage (together three yrs prior, total of six). So, I've listed her on the 1040A with no social and attached a note. I'm filing domicile in usa to keep that status and incl it when applying for IR1.

Residence does not change taxes I don't pay. I'm largely tax deferred until 59.5/62.

My patience with this bullshit is past limit.

I'm absolutely convinced this is indirect way to locate money for future wealth tax and all the forms at the banks to make bsnking impossible for non.employed Americans abroad. Recently notified will lose ability to trade in my brokerage acct. And so it goes...

The wealthy don't pay, the poor don't pay so...we will be forced to pay (and without benefit or representation).

I'm glad I have a great wife and solid marriage. Maybe next play is back to usa and off the grid.

[GinBoy2]

I 'think' there is a lot of paranoia over the FBAR. For the majority of us, yes we probably have more than $10K here, but equally the majority of us dutifully file our taxes every year reporting our minisule income on that money.

The FBAR regulations were primarily devise to catch the multi millionaires hiding their assets away overseas. Terrorists, money launderers, I tend to believe they are in the minority perusing TVF, who I 'hope' are the main targets of US financial authorities.

So maybe a little perspective on here, don't fret over that ฿1000 interest you made on your Thai bank account!