Supa Piyajitti claims loss from rice scheme exceeds 600 billion baht

[boomerangutang]

So with yingluck being in office for 2 years 9 months and 2 days the losses equate to 26.8 million baht an hour lost on a scheme that helped everyone except the farmers.

I wonder if the ex PTP MP's will denounce and belittle her and have her investigated and sacked like last time when she has highlighted facts that went against their agenda.

It didn't help everyone except the farmers: Unless ripping off citizens and leaving them with thousands of tons of rotten rice is 'helping them.' The people who benefitted most from the rice scam are rich Chinese-Thai friends of the Shinawatres who are top of the pyramid of rice dealings. ....and also the people who got government positions due to the rice scam. What was Yingluck's number of votes majority? Divide 600 billion by that number, and you get what it cost to vote the Shinawatres in to power. And that's not including the direct payment for votes (Bt.200 for hill tribers / Bt.500 for middle class voters). Altogether, the Shinawatres paid thousands of baht per vote.

[fred Kubasa]

Heel just the cost of the hundreds of meetings, ( free lunch included ), exceeds 600 million !

[EnglishJohn]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

[springheeled jack]

she is talking about the loss of revenue exceeding 600billion baht this is rice in government stockpiles which has been allowed to go rotten blaming the yingluk government pledging scheme another case of passing the buck .

[Bluespunk]

If I paid some one to look after some thing and they didn't then the the fault is theirs not mine.

Depends really.

When you are playing with the nations money to buy something you are obligated to ensure it is kept in the best possible condition to ensure the state's money is not wasted.

When it comes to perishables the govt is equally obliged to ensure those that claim they can look after it are actually able to do so.

In this case they failed to do so.

[smutcakes]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

I read that both Shin's (and possibly the entire "mob") wealth increased greatly while the rice "adventure" was underway. HUMNNNNN if $ was from ill gotten gains then is "payback" appropriate?

Here's hopin.....jpg

Well it did i presume, as did probably 99% of politicians wealth over time, even if the money is just sitting in the bank, not just PTP but all politicians. i believe YS increased her wealth at below 3% per annum over the course of her tenure, which by most standards would be seen as poor investments.

Now can you show us TS wealth increase as well? he has not declared any assets.

I wonder where you 'read' all this?

[tbthailand]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

EnglishJohn, you are incredibly tiresome, not because I disagree with you but because you don't think before you post ... ever, it seems.

Please go educate yourself about the rice production pipeline, just nominally. Then read a tiny tiny bit about how support programs work in general. Then get your numbers straight - at least as far is possible... Then you won't make stupid comments like PTP stole half a trillion bhat and then ask me if I ever thought about that...

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

Nice loss, congratulations!!!! Will heads roll? No! Why? Because it was not a little man off the street who is responsible for this crime. It all sickens me!

Edited August 8, 2015 by Blitzkrieg Bob

[phoenixdoglover]

Is there any semblance of a reconciliation of this 600 billion loss & some kind of audit trail?

Where are the forensic accountants??

Rhetoric question, i know. Who needs an audit trail when you can blindly trust everything the current government says?

We only have to wait till power changes hands with a next election. Then they can set up a new committee who surprisingly find out the rice scheme made a profit.

That how Thailand works. The first thing you do when you get in power is whitewash all your own prrvious crimes by rewriting history.

I don't think you will ever the word "audit" pass the lips of a Thai official.

Regarding the "loss" of 600 billion baht, it is obvious to me that everyone has a theory, but facts are scarce.

I would think NACC (or their equivalent) would be carefully assembling the facts, and then using them in their announcements when they move forward recommending prosecution for crimes.

Alas, this sort of "evidence-based indictment" is not to be found in the press accounts, and perhaps not to be found in the NACC files either (but we will never know, will we?)

Anyway, on the losses. Big numbers. Great outrage. Obviously somebody's bank account is bulging.

Well, maybe. Or maybe some large fraction of the "losses" are not balanced by a powerful somebody's gain. How could this happen?

1) Rotting stockpiles (well documented, but the $64,000 question...is the current rate of spoilage any greater than normal?)

2) Declining world market prices (I can show you a big loss, just let me pick the start and end points)

3) Overstatement of raw rice deliveries (corruption at the bottom of the chain)

Edited August 8, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[WitawatWatawit]

In the midst of this slanging match, I'd just like to say it's nice to see the courageous K. Supa back in the news.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[rubl]

Interesting to see 600 billion Baht loss described as "only" and "less than 700 billion". Not bad for a self-financing scam.

BTW before history gets rewritten too much and no longer reflects the truth there's an interesting article from the Bangkok Post, from 2015-01-06 on the then government being busy, with other things to try to save their skins from the blanket amnesty bill disaster. Now that would have been nice though, it included their own amnesty as well.

2013-09-25

"Luck Wajananawat, president of the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC), which funds the scheme, said the government had spent 667 billion baht ($21.3 billion) on buying rice since the scheme began.

The Commerce Ministry, which manages the rice scheme, has repaid only 139 billion baht to the BAAC, Luck was quoted as telling Thai newspapers on Wednesday, well short of the 220 billion the government aims to pay back by the end of the year."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/25/us-thailand-rice-idUSBRE98O06Q20130925

2013-07-02

"Kittiratt said yesterday there was a room to accommodate the change based on Agriculture Ministry data that the second-crop output is only 2.9 million tonnes. Plus, based on a talk between Niwatthamrong, his deputy Yanyong Phuangrach, plus Foreign Trade and Rice Department officials and exporters, stockpile releases should improve in the second half of this year and the proceeds would support the current price without hurting fiscal discipline. Even with the old price, the cost of the pledging scheme, which involves some 22 million tonnes of rice, would be within the Bt345 billion target for the harvest year."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/650597-rice-back-at-bt15000/

2013-06-18

"The Finance Ministry reported losses from the rice pledging scheme in the 2011/2012 harvest season at Bt136 billion, according to Minister to the Prime Minister’s Office Varathep Rattanakorn.

According to the sub-committee, the government spent Bt352 billion to buy 21.7 million tonnes of rice in the 2011/2012 crop while Bt156 billion worth of rice remains in the stockpiles and the sold volume was Bt59 billion, leaving net losses of Bt136.908 billion.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/647379-bt136-billion-losses-from-rice-subsidy-in-20112012-crop/

2011-10-06, the day before the RPPS officially started

""Mr Kittiratt said the 430 billion baht budget is not a one-off payment but the state would gain it back when selling the milled rice."

http://en.isnhotnews.com/?p=14909

"

"

[mikemac]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

EnglishJohn, you are incredibly tiresome, not because I disagree with you but because you don't think before you post ... ever, it seems.

Please go educate yourself about the rice production pipeline, just nominally. Then read a tiny tiny bit about how support programs work in general. Then get your numbers straight - at least as far is possible... Then you won't make stupid comments like PTP stole half a trillion bhat and then ask me if I ever thought about that...

You are equally tiresome tb, you told me recently that you were not a Shin or red supporter yet you spend so much of your valuable time defending their actions every time someone attacks them.

Every topic to do with the rice scam or the 2010 riots in Bangkok will feature you defending the reds and the Shins and attacking the Military and the current government.

Seems you are so busy trying to make your "quota" of posts that you forget what you posted previously. It happens to people who are as active as you.

[Baerboxer]

If I paid some one to look after some thing and they didn't then the the fault is theirs not mine.

And if you didn't bother to attend any of the regular meetings to ensure things were being done properly, despite appointing yourself to chair those meetings?

And if you ignored warnings from outside non biased prestigious world institutions?

And if you ignored warnings from inside competent people and intimidated and/or transferred them to shut them up?

Who would you blame them? Everyone else but yourself?

Is that you Yingluck?

Still, no worries, it wasn't "family" money that was lost and the family no doubt got their share of the gravy.

[waitforusalso]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

What a load of tripe. Where, how & who has 500,000,000,000 Baht? With your absurd claims you could perhaps get a job at the NACC.

[Baerboxer]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

EnglishJohn, you are incredibly tiresome, not because I disagree with you but because you don't think before you post ... ever, it seems.

Please go educate yourself about the rice production pipeline, just nominally. Then read a tiny tiny bit about how support programs work in general. Then get your numbers straight - at least as far is possible... Then you won't make stupid comments like PTP stole half a trillion bhat and then ask me if I ever thought about that...

TBTh - you posted earlier that 37% of the proceeds went to poor farmers. Yet the World Bank estimate was considerable less, much less than even 18%. Would you prefer the figures from a Thai source?

This scheme was vaunted as being self financing. Not a subsidy. Based on Thaksin's thoughts that the Thais could manipulate a shortage in supply which would push up prices due to demand and then the Thai would release supplies and receive the higher payments. He was wrong. The scheme was also woefully managed with all sorts of scams at all levels - importing rice, swapping low grade for high grade, falsifying quantities, stealing inventory, transporting rice around just to make money on the transport, fraudulent export deals, etc etc. All of these activities happened because people involved throughout the chain took advantage of the lack of control, lack of management, and lack of those responsible actually giving a toss even when repeatedly warned.

Where that money has ended up is anyone guess. But the trails will be long, convoluted, and very non transparent, that is for sure.

[Baerboxer]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

I read that both Shin's (and possibly the entire "mob") wealth increased greatly while the rice "adventure" was underway. HUMNNNNN if $ was from ill gotten gains then is "payback" appropriate?

Here's hopin.....jpg

Well it did i presume, as did probably 99% of politicians wealth over time, even if the money is just sitting in the bank, not just PTP but all politicians. i believe YS increased her wealth at below 3% per annum over the course of her tenure, which by most standards would be seen as poor investments.

Now can you show us TS wealth increase as well? he has not declared any assets.

I wonder where you 'read' all this?

Try Forbes Smutty. That seems a good source. Dr.Thaksin bragged himself to them that the Shin "family" wealth increased 450% during the years of his PTP government.

Now, you would need access to how the family wealth is structured between family members, trusts and all their offshore investments and accounts to know which individuals benefited and by how much. I would imagine a great deal is out of Thailand.

You need to widen your research capabilities. Google is so hard to use.

[Baerboxer]

So with yingluck being in office for 2 years 9 months and 2 days the losses equate to 26.8 million baht an hour lost on a scheme that helped everyone except the farmers.

I wonder if the ex PTP MP's will denounce and belittle her and have her investigated and sacked like last time when she has highlighted facts that went against their agenda.

It didn't help everyone except the farmers: Unless ripping off citizens and leaving them with thousands of tons of rotten rice is 'helping them.' The people who benefitted most from the rice scam are rich Chinese-Thai friends of the Shinawatres who are top of the pyramid of rice dealings. ....and also the people who got government positions due to the rice scam. What was Yingluck's number of votes majority? Divide 600 billion by that number, and you get what it cost to vote the Shinawatres in to power. And that's not including the direct payment for votes (Bt.200 for hill tribers / Bt.500 for middle class voters). Altogether, the Shinawatres paid thousands of baht per vote.

Makes you wonder. Being an ex Policeman, Thaksin might "sell" the key positions in government, the key roles in various schemes and contracts, and change the law to favor certain people and their activities, for a price of course. Wonder if he charges a fee, or a ongoing % commission or both?

That would make trails much less transparent and easy to cover to. I'm sure funding the buying of votes and ongoing "greasing" of the right palms cost a huge amount of money. Thaksin's clever trick was to do that and still turn a "profit" for the family. Which, if his bragging to Forbes was true, he managed with some skill during the PTP years.

[Orac]

In the midst of this slanging match, I'd just like to say it's nice to see the courageous K. Supa back in the news.

To be fair she also made the news yesterday as well regarding the outstanding corruption charges she is facing from when she was with BMTA back in 2000 where the statute of limitation is about to expire.

[rubl]

Only 600 billion, well that's down from 700 billion...

The NACC are just the Junta's attack dogs ... this idea of theirs that they will 'go after' politicians to 'pay back' the government is just political vengeance... It would be like going after GWB to payback American taxpayers for the Iraq war...

But while they're at it, why not go after Abhisit for the losses incurred under his rice scheme? Oh wait, ... that's right... I forgot, this is all about purging, er reconciliation.

These people are just nutters...

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

What a load of tripe. Where, how & who has 500,000,000,000 Baht? With your absurd claims you could perhaps get a job at the NACC.

On the 6th of October, 2011, one day before the RPPS officially started we had Minister of Finance 'little white lies' Kitterat state "the 430 billion baht budget is not a one-off payment but the state would gain it back when selling the milled rice.""

It would seem the state didn't gain it back, but instead needed even more budget. Of course 'the' Pheu Thai party and 'the' Pheu Thai party led government know nothing, have nothing, but the State lost 600,000,000,000 Baht. With interest and starting 2014/2015 the government needed to make a reservation in the National Budget to pay back the BAAC over a seven year period. A larger part of government incoming is from tax in various forms.

Of course you may be one of those nice people who don't mind paying some extra tax to cover politician's financial shenanigans ?

Edited August 8, 2015 by rubl

[Baerboxer]

If the former government had a policy to pay subsidies to rice farmers, that would be one thing, and arguably within the normal realm of government actions here.

But instead, what happened in this case at hand was a mountain of double-dealing and behind the scenes deals with connected and influential people that largely benefited those parties, and left a lot of the farmers without much of the benefit they were supposed to receive, not to mention, millions and millions of tons of unsold rice sitting and rotting.

The former is one thing. The latter is something entirely different and not within the realm of normal, legal government policies.

You may be right, but why don't you show everyone your working and proof on this matter, i addition to providing to those desperately trying to prosecute them, i am sure they would be very pleased to have some caste iron proof to show the world.....

No no, the Shins never ever do anything wrong. Thaksin and Yingluck said so. What more proof do you want? They would never ever lie.

They thought up a brilliant scheme to benefit the poor impoverished farmers who they care so dearly about. But, alas world markets proved to be outside their powers to influence, incredible as it may seem.

Yingluck was so sure of the scheme and trusting of all those involved she felt no need to attend any meetings, take any actions, or heed the numerous warnings.

The result, hard to tell really, because no one thought to bother with any real accounting. Certainly a considerable number of poor farmers are now poorer, not the ones driven to suicide of course, the Shins are massively richer, the total cost to the treasury remains a mystery and Yingluck still says it was a success, probably with the same sincerity she vowed protesting farmers would be paid within a week.

All an honest mistake.

[rubl]

I'm puzzled why some posters seem so upset. Surely one of these days when Ms. Yingluck finds the time to attend a session of the Supreme Court dealing with the charge against her of 'negligence', she'll be able to provide all the financial details and explain that the money isn't really lost. Probably only somewhat mislaid or so. She'll tell us.

Edited August 8, 2015 by rubl

[Thai at Heart]

For the record, even the pro-industry TDRI states that 37% went to farmers.

It is true that industry preferred the Ahbhisit income guarantee plan and the farmers preferred the pledging plan.

The Abhisit Vejjajiva administration (Democrat Party, 2008-2011) abandoned the rice pledging scheme and instead implemented rice farmers’ income guarantee under which farmers received the difference between the market price and the price-guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23; Phakdeewanich, 2013, online). Research about the program’s benefit sharing structure is non-existent. Nonetheless, academics and exporters welcomed the new policy, in contrast to the rice farmers who preferred the rice pledging approach as they perceived it to be more beneficial to them than the farmer’s income guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23).

Such as it is, and was, the 2 plans were different and yet both incurred large losses...

So let's go back now and ask Mark for billions of Bhat for his own hair-brained rice scheme... well of course not, that would be a stupid idea... just as it is is a stupid idea to think about prosecuting PTP politicians to recoup funds for their rice program... That is my point...

A whole 37% - wow, that efficiency for you. Now, how much of that 37% went to the "poorest farmers" which was the declared aim? And what percentage of Abhisit's scheme went to farmers, more than 37?

Both schemes incurred large losses - that's nice, but you forgot to give us figures. You might say the Manly ferry is a big boat, while the QE 2 sits behind it.

Research about the split of benefits caused by Abhisits system is according to this report "non existant". Please note that any pledging system that involves stock piling products will benefit millers or storers of product irrespective of who implements it............

[rubl]

For the record, even the pro-industry TDRI states that 37% went to farmers.

It is true that industry preferred the Ahbhisit income guarantee plan and the farmers preferred the pledging plan.

The Abhisit Vejjajiva administration (Democrat Party, 2008-2011) abandoned the rice pledging scheme and instead implemented rice farmers’ income guarantee under which farmers received the difference between the market price and the price-guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23; Phakdeewanich, 2013, online). Research about the program’s benefit sharing structure is non-existent. Nonetheless, academics and exporters welcomed the new policy, in contrast to the rice farmers who preferred the rice pledging approach as they perceived it to be more beneficial to them than the farmer’s income guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23).

Such as it is, and was, the 2 plans were different and yet both incurred large losses...

So let's go back now and ask Mark for billions of Bhat for his own hair-brained rice scheme... well of course not, that would be a stupid idea... just as it is is a stupid idea to think about prosecuting PTP politicians to recoup funds for their rice program... That is my point...

A whole 37% - wow, that efficiency for you. Now, how much of that 37% went to the "poorest farmers" which was the declared aim? And what percentage of Abhisit's scheme went to farmers, more than 37?

Both schemes incurred large losses - that's nice, but you forgot to give us figures. You might say the Manly ferry is a big boat, while the QE 2 sits behind it.

Research about the split of benefits caused by Abhisits system is according to this report "non existant". Please note that any pledging system that involves stock piling products will benefit millers or storers of product irrespective of who implements it............

correct. The Abhisit subsidy directly payable to farmers only, for which a reservation was made in the National Budget should not be compared with the 'self-financing' RPPS from Ms. Yingluck. Let's stay on topic gentlemen, shall we

[smutcakes]

If the former government had a policy to pay subsidies to rice farmers, that would be one thing, and arguably within the normal realm of government actions here.

But instead, what happened in this case at hand was a mountain of double-dealing and behind the scenes deals with connected and influential people that largely benefited those parties, and left a lot of the farmers without much of the benefit they were supposed to receive, not to mention, millions and millions of tons of unsold rice sitting and rotting.

The former is one thing. The latter is something entirely different and not within the realm of normal, legal government policies.

You may be right, but why don't you show everyone your working and proof on this matter, i addition to providing to those desperately trying to prosecute them, i am sure they would be very pleased to have some caste iron proof to show the world.....

No no, the Shins never ever do anything wrong. Thaksin and Yingluck said so. What more proof do you want? They would never ever lie.

They thought up a brilliant scheme to benefit the poor impoverished farmers who they care so dearly about. But, alas world markets proved to be outside their powers to influence, incredible as it may seem.

Yingluck was so sure of the scheme and trusting of all those involved she felt no need to attend any meetings, take any actions, or heed the numerous warnings.

The result, hard to tell really, because no one thought to bother with any real accounting. Certainly a considerable number of poor farmers are now poorer, not the ones driven to suicide of course, the Shins are massively richer, the total cost to the treasury remains a mystery and Yingluck still says it was a success, probably with the same sincerity she vowed protesting farmers would be paid within a week.

All an honest mistake.

For the result being hard to tell, you certainly seem to think you know a lot about it. Anyone can make baseless accusations, as I could about anyone in previous or current Governments, but it means nothing really because its just an allegation without fact.

Your whole post is full of just wild assumptions which you have no way of backing up, so its literally complete rubbish.

If you want me to, i can go through your post and illustrate it to you? If you can then back up your claims, would you?. Would you like me to do that?

[phoenixdoglover]

Nov 2013 BACC reports payments of THB 660 billion and government reimbursements of THB 140 billion, net obligation of 520 billion

Feb 2015 Thai Finance Ministry announced they will assume BACC debt of THB 682 billion (the debt grew)

Feb 2015 about 18 million tons of gov. rice in storage (conflicting reports about what proportion is low quality)

At $400/ton current price, value of stored rice (if standard) was about US 7 billion, or about THB 250 billion. (if low quality...then value will be much less)

Market losses due to price drops in the past 2 years (price declines of about 150-200 USD per ton) on total rice sold and rice in stock (20 to 30 million tons) would be THB 100 to 200 billion.

So the accounting goes roughly like this:

Total debt THB 680 billion

Less stored rice value of say THB 200 billion

Less loss due to 2 year decline in market price, say THB 150 billion

Net Loss due to poor accounting, corruption or other gross malfeasance, 330 billion (?)

Yet NACC says 600 billion. It's just not clear how they get that.

Edited August 8, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[tbthailand]

The very real faults of the PT rice scheme were well known years ago. Here's an article detailing them back in 2011.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

With the Dems scheme the majority of the money was actually paid to the farmers whereas only about 18% of the PT scheme found it's way to the farmers.

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

EnglishJohn, you are incredibly tiresome, not because I disagree with you but because you don't think before you post ... ever, it seems.

Please go educate yourself about the rice production pipeline, just nominally. Then read a tiny tiny bit about how support programs work in general. Then get your numbers straight - at least as far is possible... Then you won't make stupid comments like PTP stole half a trillion bhat and then ask me if I ever thought about that...

TBTh - you posted earlier that 37% of the proceeds went to poor farmers. Yet the World Bank estimate was considerable less, much less than even 18%. Would you prefer the figures from a Thai source?

This scheme was vaunted as being self financing. Not a subsidy. Based on Thaksin's thoughts that the Thais could manipulate a shortage in supply which would push up prices due to demand and then the Thai would release supplies and receive the higher payments. He was wrong. The scheme was also woefully managed with all sorts of scams at all levels - importing rice, swapping low grade for high grade, falsifying quantities, stealing inventory, transporting rice around just to make money on the transport, fraudulent export deals, etc etc. All of these activities happened because people involved throughout the chain took advantage of the lack of control, lack of management, and lack of those responsible actually giving a toss even when repeatedly warned.

Where that money has ended up is anyone guess. But the trails will be long, convoluted, and very non transparent, that is for sure.

for the record, I said that the TDRI shows that 37% went to the farmers.

I did not specify poor farmers, or otherwise qualify the numbers from the TDRI.

The TDRI is a pro-business, pro-Democrats lobby posing as a think tank... I trust them to not over-exagerate the benefits of the PTP rice program.

[tbthailand]

I was wondering how much actually got to the farmers : if 18% is correct it means Pheu-Thai STOLE nearly 500,000,000,000 baht.

Can you even comprehend a number like that Mr tbthailand ?. And you think the people they stole from (ie the taxpayer) should just forget about it ?. Exactly the kind of 'reconciliation' you people want.

Your post makes no sense at all. Keep up with your whining and nonsense statements you copied from something someone else told you : it just makes sure the rest of us know what kind of people we are talking about when we see the phrase "red-shirt".

EnglishJohn, you are incredibly tiresome, not because I disagree with you but because you don't think before you post ... ever, it seems.

Please go educate yourself about the rice production pipeline, just nominally. Then read a tiny tiny bit about how support programs work in general. Then get your numbers straight - at least as far is possible... Then you won't make stupid comments like PTP stole half a trillion bhat and then ask me if I ever thought about that...

You are equally tiresome tb, you told me recently that you were not a Shin or red supporter yet you spend so much of your valuable time defending their actions every time someone attacks them.

Every topic to do with the rice scam or the 2010 riots in Bangkok will feature you defending the reds and the Shins and attacking the Military and the current government.

Seems you are so busy trying to make your "quota" of posts that you forget what you posted previously. It happens to people who are as active as you.

if you look at my post, you will see that I have called out the military patsies at the NACC for a stupid position and accused them of political revenge.

You can explain to everyone how that is a defense of the PTP, the red shirts, or, lord forbid, Thaksin....

[boomerangutang]

she is talking about the loss of revenue exceeding 600billion baht this is rice in government stockpiles which has been allowed to go rotten blaming the yingluk government pledging scheme another case of passing the buck .

Regardless of details, people at the top of the pyramid were going to get payments first and in full. Then, perhaps some residual money trickles down, and trickles down some more - to possibly get to the the people with small rice plots. But waitaminute, weren't the little people the folks who were clamoring about not getting paid?! They threatened to drive their tractors to Bkk, and Yingluck backed down and promised them they'd get paid - but (surprise!) ....it was an empty promise.

From another angle, the rice scheme was an indirect way for PTP to pay for votes. Since rice farmers form a large block of voters, it behooves a crafty political campaign to promise them that which they love the most: money. Once in power, then things come down the tubes from Bkk differently - but make sure the power-brokers' buddies are head of the line at the feeding trough.

[halloween]

For the record, even the pro-industry TDRI states that 37% went to farmers.

It is true that industry preferred the Ahbhisit income guarantee plan and the farmers preferred the pledging plan.

The Abhisit Vejjajiva administration (Democrat Party, 2008-2011) abandoned the rice pledging scheme and instead implemented rice farmers’ income guarantee under which farmers received the difference between the market price and the price-guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23; Phakdeewanich, 2013, online). Research about the program’s benefit sharing structure is non-existent. Nonetheless, academics and exporters welcomed the new policy, in contrast to the rice farmers who preferred the rice pledging approach as they perceived it to be more beneficial to them than the farmer’s income guarantee (Jermsittiparsert et al., 2012, p. 23).

Such as it is, and was, the 2 plans were different and yet both incurred large losses...

So let's go back now and ask Mark for billions of Bhat for his own hair-brained rice scheme... well of course not, that would be a stupid idea... just as it is is a stupid idea to think about prosecuting PTP politicians to recoup funds for their rice program... That is my point...

A whole 37% - wow, that efficiency for you. Now, how much of that 37% went to the "poorest farmers" which was the declared aim? And what percentage of Abhisit's scheme went to farmers, more than 37?

Both schemes incurred large losses - that's nice, but you forgot to give us figures. You might say the Manly ferry is a big boat, while the QE 2 sits behind it.

Research about the split of benefits caused by Abhisits system is according to this report "non existant". Please note that any pledging system that involves stock piling products will benefit millers or storers of product irrespective of who implements it............

Surely you are well enough informed that Abhisit's scheme did not involve taking possession of the rice, but covering the gap difference in price. So who are you attempting to mislead?