Delta Airlines pilots make blind emergency landing after hailstones crack windscreen

[webfact]

Hero pilots make blind emergency landing after baseball-sized hailstones crack windscreen
Passenger Beau Sorensen said: "Babies were crying. Some young teens behind me were screaming. Delta should give the pilot of my flight a sizeable bonus for saving our butts"
BY CHRISTOPHER BUCKTIN

COLORADO: -- Hero pilots had to make an emergency landing without being able to see out of the windshield after baseball-sized hailstones wrecked the front of their plane.

The storm was so great it also destroyed the Airbus’s GPS navigation system at the front of the aircraft, which was flying from Boston, Massachusetts, to Salt Lake City, Utah, on Friday night.

The pilots of Delta Airlines flight 1889 managed to land in Denver where the full extent of the damage to the plane’s nose cone and windshields could be seen.

Passenger Beau Sorensen, from Provo, Utah, said: "There were times when we felt like the air dropped out from under us.

“We could see lightning spider-webbing over the wings and hail pounding the plane.”

Full story: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hero-pilots-make-blind-emergency-6222332

-- Mirror 2015-08-10

[canopus1969]

Hero ? don't think so (A) he was only doing his job and ( self preservation is a very strong motive !

[vogie]

Hero ? don't think so (A) he was only doing his job and ( self preservation is a very strong motive !

Maybe if you was on that plane, you may have different thoughts?

[NeverSure]

I wonder how many mistakes will be counted that led up to that plane even flying into such a thunderstorm. The pilots and ground control can clearly see it on radar. The plane ordinarily would give it a wide berth.

Heroes, no. The plane is designed to land in what's called "zero-zero visibility" and it has to be done sometimes due to low clouds and fog. They are exceptional if they managed to keep their pants dry in that thunderstorm which could possibly tear the plane apart with wind shear.

Edited August 10, 2015 by NeverSure

[Briggsy]

Those Airbus are tough.

[balderdash]

Concur with "Neversure" above. This could and should have been avoided. Airborne weather radar, ground based weather radar, weather forecasts, PIREPS, my goodness how could they have gotten themselves into such a mess in the first place. More than likely both the pilots and the ATC have some explaining to do! Also, these aircraft can land better by themselves than with a human pilot - and as far as I know, don't require the GPS to be working, just the localizer, glideslope, radar altimeter, and aircraft auto flight/power controls. Let's see what the FAA has to say about this incident in a few months time.

[faraday]

Didn't know there were a couple of airline pilots on the forum. How very nice.

Lets consider this, should the pilot be called a hero?

By the sounds of it - from reading the report, then yes, I think so.

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

The real test of a person comes when face with extreme danger & how they respond to it.

Perhaps there have been other incidents where the pilot didn't 'step up' & the plane crashed.......

[balderdash]

ATP no, PPL/w instrument rating yes (with caveat of passing commercial and CFI exams.. aeons ago). I understand your point though, he apparently kept his cool under a lot of pressure.

[casualbiker]

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

[chuckd]

I was just proofing my photo of the front of the plane. You beat me by a minute.

[sweatalot]

Hero ? don't think so (A) he was only doing his job and ( self preservation is a very strong motive !

I agree.

But why not praise him and be thankful.

[balderdash]

 

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

 

"front of the plane"... it's called a nose cone and it is not a flight control, nor is it part of any hydraulics, electrical, fuel, thrust, avionic (although apparently the GPS was impacted inside the cone), or any other system that might cause a fatal crash. It has some impact on aerodynamics and drag, and might cause airflow problems, perhaps resulting in an inaccurate pitot tube reading, or some vibration, but that is about it. I've seen a couple of C-5 nose cones damaged severely inflight as well, the pilots just landed and made repairs. Also, any IFR pilot "can" take a plane off zero-zero and get to decision height/point on an instrument approach without even looking out the window.

Something like this might warrant the term "hero" for marvellous piloting skills...

[balderdash]

link not allowed apparently...

UAL flight 232 crash

[kutjebu]

Those Airbus are tough.

These Airbus are a lot better then Boeings.

[tigermonkey]

 

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

 

"front of the plane"... it's called a nose cone and it is not a flight control, nor is it part of any hydraulics, electrical, fuel, thrust, avionic (although apparently the GPS was impacted inside the cone), or any other system that might cause a fatal crash. It has some impact on aerodynamics and drag, and might cause airflow problems, perhaps resulting in an inaccurate pitot tube reading, or some vibration, but that is about it. I've seen a couple of C-5 nose cones damaged severely inflight as well, the pilots just landed and made repairs. Also, any IFR pilot "can" take a plane off zero-zero and get to decision height/point on an instrument approach without even looking out the window.

Something like this might warrant the term "hero" for marvellous piloting skills...

Actually the "nose cone" is called a radome.

[bamnutsak]

Freaky storm. "Negative radar".

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1700996-dl-1889-damaged-hail-enroute-bos-dia.html

Other recent incidents...

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/07/american-airlines-to-ferry-banged-up-boeing-787-from-china-to-dfw-next-week.html/

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1692574-dtw-icn-dl-159-747-aircraft-hail-damage.html

[balderdash]

 

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

 

"front of the plane"... it's called a nose cone and it is not a flight control, nor is it part of any hydraulics, electrical, fuel, thrust, avionic (although apparently the GPS was impacted inside the cone), or any other system that might cause a fatal crash. It has some impact on aerodynamics and drag, and might cause airflow problems, perhaps resulting in an inaccurate pitot tube reading, or some vibration, but that is about it. I've seen a couple of C-5 nose cones damaged severely inflight as well, the pilots just landed and made repairs. Also, any IFR pilot "can" take a plane off zero-zero and get to decision height/point on an instrument approach without even looking out the window.

Something like this might warrant the term "hero" for marvellous piloting skills...

Actually the "nose cone" is called a radome.

From wikipedia..

"On airliners the nose cone is also a radome protecting the weather radar from aerodynamic forces." On aircraft without forward looking radar, or if the radar is not located inside the nose cone then it is not called a radome Since this aircraft must have had weather radar, then I suppose it could ALSO be called the radome. From the article the GPS was damaged inside the nose cone, so "gpsdome" anyone?

[rjcampbe]

Didn't know there were a couple of airline pilots on the forum. How very nice.

Lets consider this, should the pilot be called a hero?

By the sounds of it - from reading the report, then yes, I think so.

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

The real test of a person comes when face with extreme danger & how they respond to it.

Perhaps there have been other incidents where the pilot didn't 'step up' & the plane crashed.......

You miss the point...

Half his job was to keep them safe in the first place.

All the technology in the world can't work if people look at the data, see the thunderstorms, and fly through them anyway. (And I place my money on cold hard CASH for the reason. Keep the airline on schedule and on budget, not using extra fuel to avoid the storm, or extra transportation costs for passengers by diverting to another airport.)

I'm sure there are times when unforeseen things happen and the pilot has to be a hero, but flying into what you know is there and surviving is stupidity and luck, not heroism.

[tigermonkey]

 

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

 

"front of the plane"... it's called a nose cone and it is not a flight control, nor is it part of any hydraulics, electrical, fuel, thrust, avionic (although apparently the GPS was impacted inside the cone), or any other system that might cause a fatal crash. It has some impact on aerodynamics and drag, and might cause airflow problems, perhaps resulting in an inaccurate pitot tube reading, or some vibration, but that is about it. I've seen a couple of C-5 nose cones damaged severely inflight as well, the pilots just landed and made repairs. Also, any IFR pilot "can" take a plane off zero-zero and get to decision height/point on an instrument approach without even looking out the window.

Something like this might warrant the term "hero" for marvellous piloting skills...

Actually the "nose cone" is called a radome.

From wikipedia..

"On airliners the nose cone is also a radome protecting the weather radar from aerodynamic forces." On aircraft without forward looking radar, or if the radar is

not located inside the nose cone then it is not called a radome Since this aircraft must have had weather radar, then I suppose it could ALSO be called the

radome. From the article the GPS was damaged inside the nose cone, so "gpsdome" anyone?

You can call it anything you like. I could not care less. I only thought that some would like to know the proper name.

[shaurene]

I believe you normally get stuff like this going through CN Cumulowil Nimbis which pilots will stay clear of.

I hit heavy hail in the UK just after taking off flying a single engine Grumond it was hairy and the sound was shattering. No dry underpants in the first aid box. I turned around and went back, landed ok.

[ikbenhet]

This is the front of the plane.. Whatever the reasons for the plane flying into the hailstorm. The pilots still did well getting it down!

Getting down is never the problem..

[tigermonkey]

Didn't know there were a couple of airline pilots on the forum. How very nice.

Lets consider this, should the pilot be called a hero?

By the sounds of it - from reading the report, then yes, I think so.

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

The real test of a person comes when face with extreme danger & how they respond to it.

Perhaps there have been other incidents where the pilot didn't 'step up' & the plane crashed.......

You miss the point...

Half his job was to keep them safe in the first place.

All the technology in the world can't work if people look at the data, see the thunderstorms, and fly through them anyway. (And I place my money on cold hard CASH for the reason. Keep the airline on schedule and on budget, not using extra fuel to avoid the storm, or extra transportation costs for passengers by diverting to another airport.)

I'm sure there are times when unforeseen things happen and the pilot has to be a hero, but flying into what you know is there and surviving is stupidity and luck, not heroism.

You could not be more wrong . No sane pilot pilot knowingly flies into a thunder cell. A thunder cell can be enormous and go as high as 60,000 feet , with an enlarged top, known as the anvil Modern weather radar onboard is quite good at showing most of the bad dense weather areas - they show in red and you simply avoid them ! Once inside the thunder cell you have a very good chance of exceeding your aircraft's structural limits.

However hail does NOT show on the radar and it rarely falls within the thunder cell. Hail falls from the anvil at 50 - 60,000 feet and usually falls outside the thunder cell ( the cloud) due to wind drift. There is seldom any warning of being hit by hail, and it has even been known in what is apparently clear air. THERE IS NO WAY TO AVOID HAIL .

Edited August 10, 2015 by tigermonkey

[tigermonkey]

Those Airbus are tough.

These Airbus are a lot better then Boeings.

Ahhh the eternal argument ! There is no winner ! It belongs in the same category as the statement that "blondes are better women than brunettes ".

[NeverSure]

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

"Guy kept his nerve wet his pants. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives The airplane saved the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time despite the clear fact that the pilots and ground control screwed up."

Dude, there is no excuse for flying into a thunderstorm, especially one that's big and powerful enough to create that size of hail. Thunderstorms show up (paint) on radar very plainly and that radar is in the airplane with a clear instrument panel graphic readout and the air traffic controllers will also see it.

Thunderstorms don't happen in a vacuum. It takes a certain type of weather to create them. It also takes a certain type of crazy to fly into one. The storm literally had the potential to tear the wings off that plane.

[NeverSure]

 

"front of the plane"... it's called a nose cone and it is not a flight control, nor is it part of any hydraulics, electrical, fuel, thrust, avionic (although apparently the GPS was impacted inside the cone), or any other system that might cause a fatal crash. It has some impact on aerodynamics and drag, and might cause airflow problems, perhaps resulting in an inaccurate pitot tube reading, or some vibration, but that is about it. I've seen a couple of C-5 nose cones damaged severely inflight as well, the pilots just landed and made repairs. Also, any IFR pilot "can" take a plane off zero-zero and get to decision height/point on an instrument approach without even looking out the window.

Something like this might warrant the term "hero" for marvellous piloting skills...

Actually the "nose cone" is called a radome.

No, the radome is what shields the radar and is part of the nose cone. You have a radome only in planes that have radar.

I do agree that the nose cone is often called the radome but that's because everyone (else) understands what it means.

Cheers.

[slapout]

For all you experts who say the plane should not have flown into the storm. he was or was not a hero for making a safe landing under described conditions, he should have diverted around, etc. I do not think you would even be considered for a after incident investigation for a kiddie car race. The area from south texas north to canada east to the kentucky area and west to california have what are referred to as thunderstroms evey year from spring time thru the fall. season.

There will occur during this time hail, tornados, wind shears, temp. variation of 60 + degree f in 20 hours,, rain storms that will dump 18 inchers of rain in 24 hours.. floods in the deserts, white out snow storms in the mountionous regions, and an occasional drought. Its not a area to live unless you have a strong constitution, to work unless your tough as nails and the farmers, ranchers,, oil field, truckers, etc,Otherwise its not for the faint of heart. Airlines as well as piolets are aware of these factors and chose to make there liveing in them.

Todays planes are built and equipted to land at many airports without hands on control by humans. As the country western song says ''thats my job''

[tigermonkey]

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

"Guy kept his nerve wet his pants. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives The airplane saved the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time despite the clear fact that the pilots and ground control screwed up."

Dude, there is no excuse for flying into a thunderstorm, especially one that's big and powerful enough to create that size of hail. Thunderstorms show up (paint) on radar very plainly and that radar is in the airplane with a clear instrument panel graphic readout and the air traffic controllers will also see it.

Thunderstorms don't happen in a vacuum. It takes a certain type of weather to create them. It also takes a certain type of crazy to fly into one. The storm literally had the potential to tear the wings off that plane.

There is absolutely no evidence that they flew into a thunderstorm, either knowingly or otherwise. Hail seldom occurs within the thunder cell itself, but at some distance away from the storm. The hail is generated in the 'anvil' or thunder head of the storm. This hail is usually released above 50,00 feet and then drifts in the winds (which can be quite strong).away from the storm. Hail does not show on any radar, so how do you avoid it ? If you are going to avoid all thunder storms by at least 10 nm, you might as well stay at home.

[NeverSure]

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

"Guy kept his nerve wet his pants. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives The airplane saved the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time despite the clear fact that the pilots and ground control screwed up."

Dude, there is no excuse for flying into a thunderstorm, especially one that's big and powerful enough to create that size of hail. Thunderstorms show up (paint) on radar very plainly and that radar is in the airplane with a clear instrument panel graphic readout and the air traffic controllers will also see it.

Thunderstorms don't happen in a vacuum. It takes a certain type of weather to create them. It also takes a certain type of crazy to fly into one. The storm literally had the potential to tear the wings off that plane.

There is absolutely no evidence that they flew into a thunderstorm, either knowingly or otherwise. Hail seldom occurs within the thunder cell itself, but at some distance away from the storm. The hail is generated in the 'anvil' or thunder head of the storm. This hail is usually released above 50,00 feet and then drifts in the winds (which can be quite strong).away from the storm. Hail does not show on any radar, so how do you avoid it ? If you are going to avoid all thunder storms by at least 10 nm, you might as well stay at home.

They can see the storm on radar and give it a wide berth which is what they do. This isn't a good day for those pilots or ATC.

[balderdash]

However hail does NOT show on the radar and it rarely falls within the thunder cell. Hail falls from the anvil at 50 - 60,000 feet and usually falls outside the thunder cell ( the cloud) due to wind drift. There is seldom any warning of being hit by hail, and it has even been known in what is apparently clear air. THERE IS NO WAY TO AVOID HAIL .

Firstly I don't know much about weather radar as I never flew an aircraft with it. If you google "Optimum use of the weather radar" you get a paper in the Airbus library. On page 2 it states

"Above FL 200, hail is most likely to be encountered inside the cloud" (Cb)

The graphic on the page shows 80% probability of the hail being inside the cell (for FL200 and above), and 20% of it being under the downwind side of the anvil.

I believe this flight was in cruise phase above FL200? Is this Airbus paper incorrect or am I misinterpretting it?

On page 4 of the document is shows a graphic of reflectivity and "wet hail" and "dry hail" are indicated.

"The shape of the radar echo, as well as their color, should be observed to identify storms containing hail" pg 14 pp 2

The paper also shows that even at ground level hail remains within 2nm of the edge of the parent cell.

From

"Passenger Beau Sorensen, from Provo, Utah, said: "There were times when we felt like the air dropped out from under us.

“We could see lightning spider-webbing over the wings and hail pounding the plane.”

This would also seem to suggest that the plane was inside the cell itself, no?

[tigermonkey]

Guy kept his nerve. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time.

It is all too easy to have a glib reply such as: 'he was only doing his job'.

"Guy kept his nerve wet his pants. His inner strength enabled him to save the lives The airplane saved the lives of the passengers, in an extremely difficult time despite the clear fact that the pilots and ground control screwed up."

Dude, there is no excuse for flying into a thunderstorm, especially one that's big and powerful enough to create that size of hail. Thunderstorms show up (paint) on radar very plainly and that radar is in the airplane with a clear instrument panel graphic readout and the air traffic controllers will also see it.

Thunderstorms don't happen in a vacuum. It takes a certain type of weather to create them. It also takes a certain type of crazy to fly into one. The storm literally had the potential to tear the wings off that plane.

There is absolutely no evidence that they flew into a thunderstorm, either knowingly or otherwise. Hail seldom occurs within the thunder cell itself, but at some distance away from the storm. The hail is generated in the 'anvil' or thunder head of the storm. This hail is usually released above 50,00 feet and then drifts in the winds (which can be quite strong).away from the storm. Hail does not show on any radar, so how do you avoid it ? If you are going to avoid all thunder storms by at least 10 nm, you might as well stay at home.

They can see the storm on radar and give it a wide berth which is what they do. This isn't a good day for those pilots or ATC.

We are not talking about thunderstorm damage but hail damage. Looking at at the Flightaware track of this flight, it appears they did not fly through any thunderstorm cells. They diverted along the south side of a line of level 6 storms extending from northeastern Colorado into Kansas and Nebraska. This was their best routing to Salt Lake City while avoiding the storms .Apparently they did no divert far enough since they ran into heavy hail many miles from the line of super cells. They gave the storm a "wide berth" and still got hammered. How far should they divert -- 100 miles - 200 miles -- or perhaps it is safer to just stay at home .

BTW it has nothing to do with ATC. Diversions are purely the prerogative of the pilot in command..

Edited August 10, 2015 by tigermonkey