SURVEY: Do you believe the using of the atomic bomb during WWII was justified?

[lostoday]

#k no. For great insight on this loaded topic watch Oliver Stones, "The Untold History of the United States" for a reality check. Case closed.

One liners about WW2 are usually from people who know little about what they speak. Now that case is closed.

On a more serious note I dealt with the books/movie assertion that Russia caused Japan to surrender up there in the thread a bit when I said it weren't either that caused Japan to surrender. It was the USA agreeing to an unconditional Japanese surrender with the only condition the Emperor of Japan wanted - his skin. Pays to read before you all write.

Edited August 17, 2015 by lostoday

[lostoday]

Typical American arrogance, remember what havoc they have created in their own country, South America and the rest of the world, they always have to mingle in other countries business for their own interest, it would be a better world if they keep to their own devices

I doubt that a surprise attack by the Japaneses Navy is not reason to mingle a bit eh pardner?

[billd766]

What sort of nonsense is this. As if anybody's opinion is going to change history.

Some of us are interested in history and some of us are interested in other peoples opinions on history, if you're not interested in either you don't have to play.

BTW I'm pretty sure that anyone who says it was mass murder and innocents etc., is likely to be aged under 30, people who have not studied WWII in any way and who don't have near relatives that fought in it.

It was mass murder !

You might want to read the momoires of Admiral Nimitz who actually states that the Bombs had nothing to do with the end of the war !

You might also look into recent declassified documents from the British Foreign Ministry to find out who actually had the major interest in turning

the war in europe into a global war [short answer: the BRITISH Government !]

You might also not know anything about the 25 (!!!) peace offers in 1939 and 1940 from the GERMAN Government to the BRITISH Government.

WWI and WWII were VERY different from what you learn in school or hear in the mainstream media.

The brainwash sits deep ... but the information is available [even if it might not fit your view of history as you want it to have happened !!!]

Did those peace offers include returning every country that Germany invaded back to the original countries? Paying war reparations for the destruction and damages caused, returning life to the people they had killed, returning Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Holland, Belgium, France, Denmark, Norway et al to what they were before and staying in the borders of prewar Germany?

As I remember it the British and the French governments signed a treaty to come to the aid of Poland if either of the countries were attacked.

I might be interested in what you say if you can provide some links and references, but at the moment there is only your word against many historians and I am sure that they had better information and references than you did, so please show yours.

[pmarlowe]

Typical American arrogance, remember what havoc they have created in their own country, South America and the rest of the world, they always have to mingle in other countries business for their own interest, it would be a better world if they keep to their own devices

news flash: every country operates in their own interests. sometimes good comes out of it. sometimes not.

[canuckamuck]

Was it justified? Certainly at some point it was justified, the question is whether that moment had passed before the drop.

On the otherhand one can not underestimate what those bombings did for American street cred. They may have done it regardless

[rijb]

Typical American arrogance, remember what havoc they have created in their own country, South America and the rest of the world, they always have to mingle in other countries business for their own interest, it would be a better world if they keep to their own devices

Please standby. Your posts are very important to us. We are having difficulties connecting to the Iranian server.

Death to America!

[phantomfiddler]

To simplify matters, anyone who starts a war (or a fight) for no good reason deserves anything they get

[Grouse]

Hmm. I'm trying to be dispassionate here!

However, Bretton Woods was dictated by " the victors"

Also, if you care to read the history, those dastardly British were thwarted time and time again against opening a front through Burma into Southern China and against the Japanese that way. Wouldn't do to let those bastards keep their empire, you know!

No, I standby my comment. Much of the decision making later in the war was to enable economic hegemony.

Way more deaths due to fire bombing but ultimately, the A bomb finished it

[lostoday]

Hmm. I'm trying to be dispassionate here!

However, Bretton Woods was dictated by " the victors"

Also, if you care to read the history, those dastardly British were thwarted time and time again against opening a front through Burma into Southern China and against the Japanese that way. Wouldn't do to let those bastards keep their empire, you know!

No, I standby my comment. Much of the decision making later in the war was to enable economic hegemony.

Way more deaths due to fire bombing but ultimately, the A bomb finished it

The Battle of Bretton Woods Great book. But since it took place in 1944 what did it have to do with the Atomic Bomb?

Edited August 17, 2015 by lostoday

[btunes]

#k no. For great insight on this loaded topic watch Oliver Stones, "The Untold History of the United States" for a reality check. Case closed.

One liners about WW2 are usually from people who know little about what they speak. Now that case is closed.

On a more serious note I dealt with the books/movie assertion that Russia caused Japan to surrender up there in the thread a bit when I said it weren't either that caused Japan to surrender. It was the USA agreeing to an unconditional Japanese surrender with the only condition the Emperor of Japan wanted - his skin. Pays to read before you all write.

Lost today...Now that explains everything.

[boomerangutang]

If the Japanese had known the US only had 2 bombs, they would likely have not surrendered. As it was, they must have felt other bombs would be falling in increments of several days.

I'm surprised the Imperial Palace and/or Hirohito himself were not destroyed. Most other countries, if at war with Japan at that time, would have opted for the juiciest target: the Imperial Palace in the heart of Tokyo. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed.

When I was younger, I thought it (dropping the bombs on two civilian densely-populated areas) was too severe. I still think it would have been better to drop the bombs on purely manufacturing or military targets. But overall, I think dropping the bombs was a wise choice - in that it precluded millions more getting killed in house-to-house fighting that would have ensued without the N-bombs.

Look at Okinawa or Iwo Jima, to name just two: the Japs didn't surrender - even when forced to huddle in caves with flame-throwing American troops at the entrances. Now imagine that sort of never-surrender mind-set spanning the entire Japanese archipelego. Mind boggling.

[wabothai]

I agree it was justified for many of the reasons listed in posts here.

What no one has mentioned is the "added value" of the two bombs dropped.

It was the first and only time the world has witnessed the use of such weapons on a civilian population.

That alone has been a major deterrent from these weapons being used again.

70 years later, it is still a very good deterrent.

No sane person would ever choose to use one again.

Too many insanes in leading roles.

[espinoza]

those who know something about the subject know that the Japaneses were desperately trying to surrender, the sticking point was the status of the emperor. Anyone who will say that dropping the bomb saved american lives from having to invade japan is wrong, the Japanese were ready to surrender.

The bomb was dropped more as a demonstration to the Russians , than a pacification tool towards the Japanese. and as such was a war crime.

The Japs would never surrend, because of their emperor, not unlike some other countries. Hiro Hito would not let any surviving soldier be alive. That tells much about the Japanese royal family. They asked for it and they got it. Fair as anything can be fair. The Japs killed some of my family-members, why do they complain now? The Korean ladies they abused and forced to <deleted> for Hiro Hito, what about them???? I`m just sorry that they did not drop it in Tokyo instead of this remote cities.

[ryguy]

Yes, Of course is was justified Truman had many top Generals inform him that up to a million troops would be needed for a land invasion. Hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died taking and securing the country from the brainwashed monarchist. Perhaps maybe Thai's should study up more on Japenese history....No that would never be allowed in Thai schools now would it. It would not fit the "Propaganda Machine" here run by the elite who benefit in it's current form.

[MiKT]

No as the Japanese had been trying to surrender and it was only used to prove a point. Disgusting.

2 wrongs do not make a right.

this is totally wrong the Japanese were not trying to surrender. Even after the second bomb a large number of the influential war party did not want to surrender . You should get your historic facts right and stop trying to whitwash the appaling Japanese role in WW2.

[MiKT]

I believe if this vote were confined to those alive at the time, excluding Japanese the vote would be overwhelmingly yes

It is good that younger generations are more moderate, or are they I think the majority would execute those terrorists who behead their victims, I also think the Japanese executed many prisoners

They all committed war crimes, from the movies i was led to believe for instance the Germans were evil and the Americans angels. Later when i was a bit older i saw documentaries it became clear they both executed other soldiers as it was easier as taking care of them and guarding them. This were US soldiers saying they did this (so the truth)

All sides are bad in wars

I have yet to see Japanese civilians kill soldiers, if the bombs were used exclusively on soldiers it would have been a totally different story. To punish civilians for what their army did is not fair.

Actually Japanese civilians did kill many American airmen who were unlucky unough to parachute out over Japan. So was it right for Japanese troops to kill so many civilians in say Thailand, or the Philippines, or maybe they did good by murdering so many Koreans for 50 years. How about the Rape of Nanking? Was that justified ? All of this time the Japanese public were overwhelmingly behind their army. Luckily the world has moved on and the Japanese people are very different today. But nobody in Japan should forget the terrible results of Japanese aggression in the first half of the 19th century. At least the Germans have moved on from Nazizm and regret but don't glorify there war dead.

[MiKT]

You wrote, " I think you need to go back and study the facts. The Japanese were desperate to surrender before the first bomb was dropped but the bombs were dropped to prove a point." On August 6, 1945, the United States detonated an atomic bombover the Japanese city of Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, 1945, in accordance with the Yalta agreements, but in violation of theSoviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, and soon after midnight on August 9, 1945, the Soviet Union invaded the Imperial Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. Later that same day, the United States dropped a second atomic bomb, this time on the Japanese city of Nagasaki.

Following these events,Emperor Hirohito intervened and ordered the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the terms the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration for ending the war. After several more days of behind-the-scenes negotiations and a failed coup d'état, Emperor Hirohito gave a recorded radio address across the Empire on August 15. In the radio address, called the Gyokuon-hōsō ("Jewel Voice Broadcast"), he announced the surrender of Japan to the Allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

Sorry can't rewrite history. Bombs first - surrender 2nd.

Well sorry but yes history does get rewritten to favour the victors side of events.

Wikipedia is not a reliable place to quote facts from.

Did you know that the terms of surrender were the same post A-bombs as the Japanese had offered pre bombing?

But the Americans don't want everyone thinking it was unjustified so these little points are left out.

The complexities of the situation are far murkier than those being discussed here.

May I suggest you read Paul Hams Hiroshima Nagasaki account of events for a more balanced fact based view of what happened.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hiroshima-Nagasaki-Paul-Ham/dp/0552778508

well sorry, this is simply not true. Dig a little deeper and stop trying to blame the US for a war Japan started. Millions more would have died because prior to the A bombs Japanese surender terms did not include giving up Korea, China, Indonesia, etc. For a modern view may I suggest you read Max Hastings "All Hell Let Loose" for a really balanced view of WW2. Edited August 17, 2015 by MiKT

[MiKT]

What sort of nonsense is this. As if anybody's opinion is going to change history.

Some of us are interested in history and some of us are interested in other peoples opinions on history, if you're not interested in either you don't have to play.

BTW I'm pretty sure that anyone who says it was mass murder and innocents etc., is likely to be aged under 30, people who have not studied WWII in any way and who don't have near relatives that fought in it.

It was mass murder !

You might want to read the momoires of Admiral Nimitz who actually states that the Bombs had nothing to do with the end of the war !

You might also look into recent declassified documents from the British Foreign Ministry to find out who actually had the major interest in turning

the war in europe into a global war [short answer: the BRITISH Government !]

You might also not know anything about the 25 (!!!) peace offers in 1939 and 1940 from the GERMAN Government to the BRITISH Government.

WWI and WWII were VERY different from what you learn in school or hear in the mainstream media.

The brainwash sits deep ... but the information is available [even if it might not fit your view of history as you want it to have happened !!!]

what kind of crap is this, the Germans has invaded, killed and enslaved millions by 1940, as had the Japanese, it was only Churchill and the British peoples defiance of Hitler that eventually enabled the Nazis and Japanese Imperialist to be defeated with the aid of the US. Do you really think a peace offer from Hitler in 1939 would have prevented the Holacost? Don't you know that Hitlers troops would have wiped out all Poles in conjunction with the Russians? Can you imagine what would have happened to millions and millions of Africans and Asian "lower class of people" if the Nazis had been left to carry out their 3rd Reich plans for world domination? What the hell has happened to teaching history? Edited August 17, 2015 by MiKT

[billd766]

those who know something about the subject know that the Japaneses were desperately trying to surrender, the sticking point was the status of the emperor. Anyone who will say that dropping the bomb saved american lives from having to invade japan is wrong, the Japanese were ready to surrender.

The bomb was dropped more as a demonstration to the Russians , than a pacification tool towards the Japanese. and as such was a war crime.

The Japs would never surrend, because of their emperor, not unlike some other countries. Hiro Hito would not let any surviving soldier be alive. That tells much about the Japanese royal family. They asked for it and they got it. Fair as anything can be fair. The Japs killed some of my family-members, why do they complain now? The Korean ladies they abused and forced to <deleted> for Hiro Hito, what about them???? I`m just sorry that they did not drop it in Tokyo instead of this remote cities.

AFAIR at that time in Japan the emperor was rarely seen or heard and acess to him was controlled by the Japanese Army. He had little control over the country or the military. At that time he as believed to be and treated as the "Son of Heaven" and anything he said was treated with reverence. As the Army controlled access to him it would be easy to control what he "said" even if he didn't actually say it.

When he actually announced the end of the war it on the radio it was the first time that many Japanese had ever heard him speak.

It was much more the military and business people in Japan that ran the country rather than the Emperor. He was merely the figurehead in whose name so many atrocities were committed.

If they had dropped the bomb on Tokyo and killed the Emperor his Family, the Japanese peope would have been told by the Army that the Americans had killed the Emperor and the entire Japanese people would have fought to the last round, the last man woman and child and if there were anyone left they would have committed suicide. The slaughter of the Allies would have been horrendous.

[sirineou]

It saddens me to see that such large percentage of the TVF membership thinks it was ok to nuke civilian populations during WWII

Though it comes as no surprise.

[jtTamad]

Well, it certainly wouldn't today, but you have try to put itself into that time. The horribleness of a WORLD WAR. It was about the survival of free societies.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[lostoday]

Aug 6th Atomic bomb #1. Aug 9th Atomic bomb #2. August 10th the Foreign Ministry sent telegrams to the Allies (by way of the Swiss Federal Political Department and Max Grässli in particular) announcing that Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration, but would not accept any peace conditions that would "prejudice the prerogatives" of the Emperor. That effectively meant no change in Japan's form of government—that the Emperor of Japan would remain a position of real power.

Allies response: From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms. ...The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people

Aug 14th In the largest bombing raid of the Pacific War, more than 400 B-29s attacked Japan during daylight on August 14, and more than 300 that night.[103] A total of 1,014 aircraft were used with no losses.

In the longest bombing mission of the war, B-29s from the 315 Bombardment Wing flew 3,800 miles to destroy the Nippon Oil Company refinery at Tsuchizaki on the northern tip of Honshū. This was the last operational refinery in the Japan Home Islands and it produced 67% of their oil.

Under torture, a captured American P-51 fighter pilot had told his interrogators that the United States possessed 100 atom bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto would be bombed "in the next few days". The pilot, Marcus McDilda, was lying. He knew nothing of the Manhattan Project and simply told his interrogators what he thought they wanted to hear to end the torture. The lie, which caused him to be classified as a high-priority prisoner, probably saved him from beheading. In reality, the United States would have had the third bomb ready for use around August 19, and a fourth in September 1945. The third bomb probably would have been used against Tokyo.

Aug 14th the Emperor of Japan said to his cabinet. I have listened carefully to each of the arguments presented in opposition to the view that Japan should accept the Allied reply as it stands and without further clarification or modification, but my own thoughts have not undergone any change. ... In order that the people may know my decision, I request you to prepare at once an imperial rescript so that I may broadcast to the nation. Finally, I call upon each and every one of you to exert himself to the utmost so that we may meet the trying days which lie ahead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

My addendum. The recording was bad and the Emperor used classical Japanese and almost no one knew what he said.

[lostoday]

It saddens me to see that such large percentage of the TVF membership thinks it was ok to nuke civilian populations during WWII

Though it comes as no surprise.

Atomic bomb deaths 129,000. Tokyo fire bombing deaths 200,000. It comes as no surprise to me that you don't know it was not the nukes that killed the most people. Rape of Nanking, 200,000 Chinese killed by Japanese using swords and bullets.

[sirineou]

It saddens me to see that such large percentage of the TVF membership thinks it was ok to nuke civilian populations during WWII

Though it comes as no surprise.

Atomic bomb deaths 129,000. Tokyo fire bombing deaths 200,000. It comes as no surprise to me that you don't know it was not the nukes that killed the most people. Rape of Nanking, 200,000 Chinese killed by Japanese using swords and bullets.

It also comes as no surprise that some would think that since the nukes did not kill as many civilians as other means, it make them Ok

[boomerangutang]

It saddens me to see that such large percentage of the TVF membership thinks it was ok to nuke civilian populations during WWII

Though it comes as no surprise.

If a family of bobcats plunges through your living room window and starts devouring your family - you're justified in taking dynamic action - including killing the bobcats.

No one is saying it's 'OK' to nuke. What many of us are saying is: it was necessary action to end the awful war. the limp-wristed puppet Hirohito didn't end the war weeks/months earlier when it was clear his side was losing. He could have agreed to surrender after Midway, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, or before his generals sacrificed hundreds of young men who tried to steer flying bombs into USN ships (99% failed).

[raybal5]

I wasn't there.

Neither was I but I can read a lot of information about what happened in history. It was a significant event in the world so hey, why not get informed.

[Katipo]

Not that I would wish that kind of event on anyone, or for it to ever happen again..... but I feel if it didn't happen at that time (and let's face it, the Japanese were in a dark, dark place), it may have been more readily used at a later time with even greater consequences.

[puyaidon]

Those who think that dropping the bomb was not necessary are delusional. Japan had built up a massive amount of airplanes, submarines, boats, and personnel just to face an invasion. They had even enlisted civilians who would give up their lives just to defend the homeland. Books like "Codename: Downfall" and "Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall" give a lot of info on what the Japanese had waiting for us if we had invaded. Over 300,000 Purple Hearts, given to wounded were manufactured, were not used and are being used for military wounded in action now. You should look at the logistics that was in the works just to get enough men to invade. It is estimated that we would have had approximately one million casualties, both dead and wounded just on the Allied side. It was estimated that the Japanese would have suffered over five million casualties, probably most dead. The world judges Hitler by the six million Jews he put to death in the death camps not counting the many others who did die. Imagine how they would view the Allied powers if we had killed five million Japanese, both military and civilian instead of the 100,000 deaths or so by the atomic bombs. We would have been the ones offering the apologies rather than seeking them from the Japanese. Do your research, not just what you feel. There is a lot more to consider then the liberal view.

[geriatrickid]

Japanese still refuse to apologize and to take responsibility for what they did.

I find it incredible that westerners agonize over the bombing which ended the war and saved countless lives, while the Japanese celebrate their reign of terror, torture and tyranny.

[soalbundy]

Once they had built it it would have been a waste not to use it.