Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[AleG]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

He also says "DoDo" would have come and said hello, Implying that he is at least an acquaintance of "DoDo"s..... So I'll take his post with a pinch of salt.

So where were you that evening? If he didn't know the kid on sight, how would he be able to say that during the time he was there, he didn't see the kid?

It's remarkable, isn't it?

First they'd ask why nobody has come forward to provide information, this proves there is a cover up!; then someone comes forward with information that contradicts their theories and of course, that proves there's a cover-up because that's what they would say, wouldn't they?

Same with the family being accused of being behind the murder and cover-up, a few weeks ago the argument was that it was suspicious that they didn't sue anyone for defamation over the allegations, as innocent people would do... then it turns out they sued (and won) for defamation and all of the sudden that becomes what guilty people would do.

Heads I'm right, tails you are wrong, it may not be a philosophy conducive to finding the truth but sure it must be very satisfying.

[loonodingle]

It appears to me that the defense strategy not to retest the DNA under the court's conditions makes sense- why retest unless you can use an independent source. there is no chain of custody on the DNA. Therefore it is tainted and should hopefully be ignored. The same with the confessions and reenactment- too much doubt as to possible mistreatment and beating of the B2. In addition, the 'translator' has no credibility. As an outsider looking in- the Prosecution case is collapsing piece by piece.

I still want to know what happened in the AC bar. To me- that is the central piece to establishing why the two young visitors might have been killed. Was there an altercation? Did someone try and flirt with Hannah and were they rejected? Right now, I cannot wrap my head around any motive the B2 may have had to kill the deceased. Without a motive, there is no reason to believe they did it. However, a larger motive may exist if someone can find out what happened in the AC bar. Has anyone gone to the bar, asked questions or even attempted to find a witness or witnesses? Normally, a defense team will have a private investigator retrace all the steps of the people in the case.Many questions-no answers yet.

This may be the closest you can get at least for now:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/page-185#entry9660041

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/?view=findpost&p=9659889

Perhaps JL, but then that was just a random post by some dude with a history of 7 posts, so his word on what transpired is subject to the same speculation as everything else I guess.

I doubt we'll ever get any factual information about what really went on that night.

He was in the AC bar the evening of September 14, 2014 which sets him apart from everyone else on here. Just because he had the sense good or otherwise to not answer everyone who questioned his report at the time doesn't mean his report was not factual.

I could quite easily set up a new account and make this statement in an effort to take the heat off MY Bar couldn't I... Or you as some of you do.. Get banned and get a new name.

[Rykbanlor]

So where were you that evening? If he didn't know the kid on sight, how would he be able to say that during the time he was there, he didn't see the kid?

He also says "DoDo" would have come and said hello, Implying that he is at least an acquaintance of "DoDo"s..... So I'll take his post with a pinch of salt.

If I wanted I could create another profile on here, and claim I was in the AC bar that night and I didn't see Dodo either. How would you know the difference?

You maybe wouldn't except the guy posted about a visa issue in December 2014 long before. I just think that it's remarkable that, even though the guy claims that he did speak with the police, the first instinct on here even when he posted was to think that it must be some fabrication even though the guy never said that the kid was never there the night in question -- just that HE never saw him

Although JL, I must apologise a little - all you said when you linked to the guys posts, was: "This is about as close to knowing as we are likely to get", so in all fairness, your position is neither one way or the other. I would still take that grain of salt though.

[Rykbanlor]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

He also says "DoDo" would have come and said hello, Implying that he is at least an acquaintance of "DoDo"s..... So I'll take his post with a pinch of salt.

So where were you that evening? If he didn't know the kid on sight, how would he be able to say that during the time he was there, he didn't see the kid?

It's remarkable, isn't it?

First they'd ask why nobody has come forward to provide information, this proves there is a cover up!; then someone comes forward with information that contradicts their theories and of course, that proves there's a cover-up because that's what they would say, wouldn't they?

Same with the family being accused of being behind the murder and cover-up, a few weeks ago the argument was that it was suspicious that they didn't sue anyone for defamation over the allegations, as innocent people would do... then it turns out they sued (and won) for defamation and all of the sudden that becomes what guilty people would do.

Heads I'm right, tails you are wrong, it may not be a philosophy conducive to finding the truth but sure it must be very satisfying.

I didn't realise they had sued anyone. I don't think people pressing defamation lawsuits has anything to do with guilt or innocence. I may have expressed surprise way back when Sondhi Lim' came out with his theory, that he wasn't sued, but I don't think he actually named any names.

[JLCrab]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

In the statement published today, Khaosod said it was publicly apologizing as part of a settlement agreement with Warot, who filed a libel suit against the paper over its coverage.

[stephenterry]

It appears to me that the defense strategy not to retest the DNA under the court's conditions makes sense- why retest unless you can use an independent source. there is no chain of custody on the DNA. Therefore it is tainted and should hopefully be ignored. The same with the confessions and reenactment- too much doubt as to possible mistreatment and beating of the B2. In addition, the 'translator' has no credibility. As an outsider looking in- the Prosecution case is collapsing piece by piece.

I still want to know what happened in the AC bar. To me- that is the central piece to establishing why the two young visitors might have been killed. Was there an altercation? Did someone try and flirt with Hannah and were they rejected? Right now, I cannot wrap my head around any motive the B2 may have had to kill the deceased. Without a motive, there is no reason to believe they did it. However, a larger motive may exist if someone can find out what happened in the AC bar. Has anyone gone to the bar, asked questions or even attempted to find a witness or witnesses? Normally, a defense team will have a private investigator retrace all the steps of the people in the case.Many questions-no answers yet.

You do understand that the defence are still proceeding with the DNA taken from the B2 in the court In front of witness's that they have a chain of custody for ???..

Regarding Hannah well I think theres a few things to consider.

She came from a small village in Norfolk Hemsby. She went to Small schools in a rural setting where your protected in a way from many things. Violence for example. She probably trusted people easily. She was training to be a speech therapist so she was a helper. A giver.. someone who wanted to do something for society. A generally decent human being.

she did have a boyfriend for some time I believe however they had broken up a few months before she went on her trip with 2 other Hannahs and Emma.

I believe she had met someone perhaps the night before maybe at the pub crawl? Remember they had only been there a couple of days and she had possibly arranged to meet them in the AC bar. I think she didnt want to be disturbed either as she left her mobile phone with her friend. Something you may only do if u wanted no distractions? ?

They met at the AC bar and over a period of time there was some friction between her and a Thai person?... David Intervened and they left. With a pack of angry people headed by one man. The man she had fallen oit with and possibly the person she went to meet, heading the pack.

They had nearly reached their rooms perhaps running along the way. The pack split and some attacked David whilst others restrained Hannah. Perhaps the main perpetrator raping her while his gang watched on. David having been knocked out they pulled some of his clothes of to arrange it like he was making out with Hannah. One his helpers who was nearby picked up the hoe and when he had finished the helper bashed Hannah brutally and killed her.

This crime scene contains massive violence and anger. Anger at rejection maybe?? Anger at David for protecting Hannah...

Whatever took place I think it was several people. Not 2... if u have seen Thai's fight you will know they go mob handed. If you have been in Thailand for a while u may have seen them kick off. I have many times having lived in villages as well as towns.

As for the B2 and a motive. ... welI don't think they had one.

The source of the motive comes from that bar. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow I am sure it started in there and finshed in murder 300 metres along the beach.

The fact that it's logical and plausible is no deterrent to the RTP's pursuit of the scapegoats. On Thursday and Friday this week the prosecution witnesses are senior investigation officers who no doubt will aim to finger the B2 when it is apparent to the outside world and his brother they had nothing to do with it.

A gang of Thai thugs raped and killed the victims. A gang of Thai thugs raped and killed the victims. A gang of Thai thugs raped and killed the victims.

Beats me how the RTP continue to present a case that is clearly false, and it beats me how the court could accept continuous dribble and B/S from them.

Oh, I forgot. This is Thailand. <deleted> them.

[Rykbanlor]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

[JLCrab]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Regardless of whether 'everybody knows' that the family operates as a 'mafia', that might have been a tough thing to prove in court should the KhaoSod folks decided to pursue the case. However, if they could have proved that the kid 'was responsible for the savage murders', given the history of KhaoSod/Matichon, they would have printed the evidence and said to the family to go ahead and sue us.

[Rykbanlor]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Regardless of whether 'everybody knows' that the family operates as a 'mafia', that might have been a tough thing to prove in court should the KhaoSod folks decided to pursue the case. However, if they could have proved that the kid 'was responsible for the savage murders', given the history of KhaoSod/Matichon, they would have printed the evidence and said to the family to go ahead and sue us.

You speak the truth. So much so that I forget what lead us here in the first place.

I wouldn't have expected Khaosod to factually implicate them as Mafia - I meant as I said - its a joke to suggest they are anything other than that.

[stephenterry]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Regardless of whether 'everybody knows' that the family operates as a 'mafia', that might have been a tough thing to prove in court should the KhaoSod folks decided to pursue the case. However, if they could have proved that the kid 'was responsible for the savage murders', given the history of KhaoSod/Matichon, they would have printed the evidence and said to the family to go ahead and sue us.

There is no-one on here who could prove the kid was responsible for the murders, and certainly not the newspapers, unless of course they had outside 'evidence'. Probably, what is most galling to posters on here is, there has never, ever been any attempt by the Toov family to finger the real killers because they're protecting them, IMO, because they ARE a mafia family.

Self-interest is all they care about - what's a couple of migrant workers? Wouldn't be bothered. Shit, that's all. Welcome to black Thailand.

[BritTim]

This may be the closest you can get at least for now:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/page-185#entry9660041

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/?view=findpost&p=9659889

Perhaps JL, but then that was just a random post by some dude with a history of 7 posts, so his word on what transpired is subject to the same speculation as everything else I guess.

I doubt we'll ever get any factual information about what really went on that night.

Here we see clearly why the hopes of finding out what happened are slim. The testimony of a fairly credible witness (first post on the Koh Tao case about 8 months after his account was created) cannot be uncritically accepted. If someone (brave soul) came forward to say he saw the murders, how would we be able to judge his credibility? Would you believe him without evidence if he said it was the Burmese kids? Why believe, without evidence, that it was a gang from a bar?

[stephenterry]

Do I reckon they are guilty answer no

Do I care no

The RTP would agree with you. So would the prosecution. And all the way up the chain of command. Never mind the families of the victims and the accused. Nobody cares.

[StealthEnergiser]

...and also this topic will be locked soon. Is so much hard to leave the trolls and the ones trying to derail the thread alone? Please!

The thing is these guys will keep going and going with their inaccuracies which means at times you have to engage them. I try to leave the obvious trolls on ignore but Tony, every time he types he looks sillier.

You're right though, best to ignore.

And as I said before (but seems to be deleted by the mods !)

You do not have to answer the trolls / shills.

If there is something from them that needs correction just create a new post,

do not refer to them or their post, just make your statement

See post # 542

do not reply! Avoid their posts being repeated again and again inside your replies

this way you do not feed them

don't get involved in a "conversation" with them

feel free to repeat this post from time to time if necessary

bump

[mike313]

"The prosecution case is weak"

Correction, if I may be so bold, the prosecution case is non-existent. To me the single most astounding thing I have read so far (among many astounding things) is the report that the RTP did not test the alleged murder weapon for finger prints or DNA (assuming this is true as I, as others, have seen some video of the hoe being swabbed – inconvenient prints/DNA perhaps?). If only one thing was needed to sum up this travesty it is this. How can there be a murder trial without a weapon? Or a believable motive?

Last year JDA or JTJ (I can’t remember which and apologies for bringing them up) referred several times to the “overwhelming evidence” against the B2. Well after 10 (11?) days of the prosecution presenting their case we have yet to hear of a single piece of evidence of any kind other than claims of a DNA match which to me, coming from the RTP, qualifies as hearsay - and even if correct only goes to rape not murder as has been stated a number of times. I am a little puzzled why the defense asked for new samples if the RTP was to be involved in any way. Do we know for sure the chain of custody of these new samples? I see references to the results being "returned directly to the defense" but what happens to them before this? IMHO there has been way too much emphasis on the DNA unless there is a silver bullet coming from the UK (assuming it will be admissible).

And, for what it’s worth, a couple of weeks ago I met a young lady from Norfolk who works with Hannah’s cousin. She told me the family absolutely does NOT believe what they were told. Sorry shills, I can’t post a link since I wasn’t wearing a wire.

"and even if correct only goes to rape not murder"

So what you are saying is they raped her and then went home to bed, and someone else came along and killed Hannah and David.

Put it like that and it sounds silly BUT you cannot make assumptions in law. It must be proved, with evidence that they did commit the murder. Just because they "may" be able to link them to rape does not mean you can prove that they killed them.

Gazzpa, what was written by Phuketandsee was shocking to me, hence why I responded. I am equally as shocked by your statement, you have suggested that IF the B2 are found to have raped Hannah, it does not implicate them in the murders. You are therefore suggesting that the rapist may not be the murderer? Please correct me if I am wrong.. To follow your line of thought, they should be free to walk away from this without a murder charge. It seems ludicrous to suggest the rapist walked away and someone entirely new came along and committed the murder. I have heard some incredible assumptions on this forum but the one from yourself and phuketandsee are at the top of the list. I have come to the opinion that many on this forum are not interested in justice for Hannah and David, it appears there are two groups of people, a group who will not even consider the B2's guilt, and just attack and insult anyone with an opinion different from their own, and another smaller group who are trying to put across an objective argument who are responded to with childish insults. This forum is about reasoning out the facts and information given so that we may try and get to the truth, that is all that matters, not that I think this will ever be achieved as this whole case has been handled abysmally, which is so sad for the victims, the families and the few on this forum who don't have a hatred for the country they have chosen to reside in, or the few that have a personal financial interest in supporting a very badly handled murder case. If this were your daughter, would you to be happy that the rapist goes free of a murder charge because it could be only be proven that rape took place, but there was no definite evidence of murder? What would you like in this case, justice or the letter of the law adhered to? I would imagine to most unbiased people without any agenda, it would be ludicrous to suggest that they rapist was not party to this murder. If you choose to respond please do so intelligently, I am very interested in hearing all opinions and contradictions to my theory. I would just like the truth, whatever that may be, I have no interest in being 'right'.

[balo]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Well I guess you can call the Thai family for mafia as long as they run everything on a small island , they live on income from the tourists, the headmans family made a fortune , maybe some of it is even hard work and not only criminal activites ?

But it does not make them cold blooded murderers just like that , does it ? Why would they scare tourists off the island that gives them their income ?

But of course there could be a rotten apple in the family, that night maybe high on drugs and famous for raping women , and it could be that that person has not yet made the head lines. As long as Nomsod is the most famous name , lets just carry on with naming him every time we're looking for another killer than B2. So many guys could have killed them , both Thais and foreigners that night.

[stephenterry]

Put it like that and it sounds silly BUT you cannot make assumptions in law. It must be proved, with evidence that they did commit the murder. Just because they "may" be able to link them to rape does not mean you can prove that they killed them.

Gazzpa, what was written by Phuketandsee was shocking to me, hence why I responded. I am equally as shocked by your statement, you have suggested that IF the B2 are found to have raped Hannah, it does not implicate them in the murders. You are therefore suggesting that the rapist may not be the murderer? Please correct me if I am wrong.. To follow your line of thought, they should be free to walk away from this without a murder charge. It seems ludicrous to suggest the rapist walked away and someone entirely new came along and committed the murder. I have heard some incredible assumptions on this forum but the one from yourself and phuketandsee are at the top of the list. I have come to the opinion that many on this forum are not interested in justice for Hannah and David, it appears there are two groups of people, a group who will not even consider the B2's guilt, and just attack and insult anyone with an opinion different from their own, and another smaller group who are trying to put across an objective argument who are responded to with childish insults. This forum is about reasoning out the facts and information given so that we may try and get to the truth, that is all that matters, not that I think this will ever be achieved as this whole case has been handled abysmally, which is so sad for the victims, the families and the few on this forum who don't have a hatred for the country they have chosen to reside in, or the few that have a personal financial interest in supporting a very badly handled murder case. If this were your daughter, would you to be happy that the rapist goes free of a murder charge because it could be only be proven that rape took place, but there was no definite evidence of murder? What would you like in this case, justice or the letter of the law adhered to? I would imagine to most unbiased people without any agenda, it would be ludicrous to suggest that they rapist was not party to this murder. If you choose to respond please do so intelligently, I am very interested in hearing all opinions and contradictions to my theory. I would just like the truth, whatever that may be, I have no interest in being 'right'.

I agree if the perps can be placed at the crime scene, and there is substantiated DNA evidence to support a rape allegation, that circumstantial evidence would also support murder by those implicated, beyond reasonable doubt, in a Thai court of law.

Basically, it's a given.

However, there is zero evidence - DNA allegations that have not been validated, included - that implicates the B2 being other than in the proximity of the crime scene at some time earlier that night. Along with many other party people, IMO. Or was the beach deserted that night? In other words, there was no eye-witnesses that have come forward.

[stephenterry]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Well I guess you can call the Thai family for mafia as long as they run everything on a small island , they live on income from the tourists, the headmans family made a fortune , maybe some of it is even hard work and not only criminal activites ?

But it does not make them cold blooded murderers just like that , does it ? Why would they scare tourists off the island that gives them their income ?

But of course there could be a rotten apple in the family, that night maybe high on drugs and famous for raping women , and it could be that that person has not yet made the head lines. As long as Nomsod is the most famous name , lets just carry on with naming him every time we're looking for another killer than B2. So many guys could have killed them , both Thais and foreigners that night.

I agree with you Balo. It is most likely to have been Thais, as this is their modus operandi - gang-rape farang women (as has happened before on this island according to Sean - if you can believe him). Apologies for being insensitive.

I've never thought that Nomsod was the killer, but his suspicious behaviour and fragile alibi post- murders suggests that he is involved or knows what happened.

[Gweiloman]

Well I guess you can call the Thai family for mafia as long as they run everything on a small island , they live on income from the tourists, the headmans family made a fortune , maybe some of it is even hard work and not only criminal activites ?

But it does not make them cold blooded murderers just like that , does it ? Why would they scare tourists off the island that gives them their income ?

But of course there could be a rotten apple in the family, that night maybe high on drugs and famous for raping women , and it could be that that person has not yet made the head lines. As long as Nomsod is the most famous name , lets just carry on with naming him every time we're looking for another killer than B2. So many guys could have killed them , both Thais and foreigners that night.

I agree with you Balo. It is most likely to have been Thais, as this is their modus operandi - gang-rape farang women (as has happened before on this island according to Sean - if you can believe him). Apologies for being insensitive.

I've never thought that Nomsod was the killer, but his suspicious behaviour and fragile alibi post- murders suggests that he is involved or knows what happened.

In my opinion, it's possible that in the scenario of a gang rape where the victim is murdered, only one or two of the perps might have committed the murder. So some of the other perps would be guilty of rape but not murder (they may be an accessory though).

Let's say I'm a person of some influence and have hangers on and/or bodyguards. If I wanted to commit rape, then I would have my bodyguards pin the woman down while I do the dastardly act first. After that, my bodyguards can do what they want and if I wanted the victim killed, I would most likely instruct my bodyguards to carry out the killing as opposed to doing it myself.

[Darkknight666]

Well I guess you can call the Thai family for mafia as long as they run everything on a small island , they live on income from the tourists, the headmans family made a fortune , maybe some of it is even hard work and not only criminal activites ?

But it does not make them cold blooded murderers just like that , does it ? Why would they scare tourists off the island that gives them their income ?

But of course there could be a rotten apple in the family, that night maybe high on drugs and famous for raping women , and it could be that that person has not yet made the head lines. As long as Nomsod is the most famous name , lets just carry on with naming him every time we're looking for another killer than B2. So many guys could have killed them , both Thais and foreigners that night.

I agree with you Balo. It is most likely to have been Thais, as this is their modus operandi - gang-rape farang women (as has happened before on this island according to Sean - if you can believe him). Apologies for being insensitive.

I've never thought that Nomsod was the killer, but his suspicious behaviour and fragile alibi post- murders suggests that he is involved or knows what happened.

In my opinion, it's possible that in the scenario of a gang rape where the victim is murdered, only one or two of the perps might have committed the murder. So some of the other perps would be guilty of rape but not murder (they may be an accessory though).

Let's say I'm a person of some influence and have hangers on and/or bodyguards. If I wanted to commit rape, then I would have my bodyguards pin the woman down while I do the dastardly act first. After that, my bodyguards can do what they want and if I wanted the victim killed, I would most likely instruct my bodyguards to carry out the killing as opposed to doing it myself.

Yes, I would be looking for a man named Ekkachai if I were a P.I. or a police officer. There were more than two people on the beach that night, my guess is 3 people. Nomsod could be completely innocent but I highly doubt he has zero knowledge.

[joebrown]

"The prosecution case is weak"

Correction, if I may be so bold, the prosecution case is non-existent. To me the single most astounding thing I have read so far (among many astounding things) is the report that the RTP did not test the alleged murder weapon for finger prints or DNA (assuming this is true as I, as others, have seen some video of the hoe being swabbed – inconvenient prints/DNA perhaps?). If only one thing was needed to sum up this travesty it is this. How can there be a murder trial without a weapon? Or a believable motive?

Last year JDA or JTJ (I can’t remember which and apologies for bringing them up) referred several times to the “overwhelming evidence” against the B2. Well after 10 (11?) days of the prosecution presenting their case we have yet to hear of a single piece of evidence of any kind other than claims of a DNA match which to me, coming from the RTP, qualifies as hearsay - and even if correct only goes to rape not murder as has been stated a number of times. I am a little puzzled why the defense asked for new samples if the RTP was to be involved in any way. Do we know for sure the chain of custody of these new samples? I see references to the results being "returned directly to the defense" but what happens to them before this? IMHO there has been way too much emphasis on the DNA unless there is a silver bullet coming from the UK (assuming it will be admissible).

And, for what it’s worth, a couple of weeks ago I met a young lady from Norfolk who works with Hannah’s cousin. She told me the family absolutely does NOT believe what they were told. Sorry shills, I can’t post a link since I wasn’t wearing a wire.

"and even if correct only goes to rape not murder"

So what you are saying is they raped her and then went home to bed, and someone else came along and killed Hannah and David.

Put it like that and it sounds silly BUT you cannot make assumptions in law. It must be proved, with evidence that they did commit the murder. Just because they "may" be able to link them to rape does not mean you can prove that they killed them.

Gazzpa, what was written by Phuketandsee was shocking to me, hence why I responded. I am equally as shocked by your statement, you have suggested that IF the B2 are found to have raped Hannah, it does not implicate them in the murders. You are therefore suggesting that the rapist may not be the murderer? Please correct me if I am wrong.. To follow your line of thought, they should be free to walk away from this without a murder charge. It seems ludicrous to suggest the rapist walked away and someone entirely new came along and committed the murder. I have heard some incredible assumptions on this forum but the one from yourself and phuketandsee are at the top of the list. I have come to the opinion that many on this forum are not interested in justice for Hannah and David, it appears there are two groups of people, a group who will not even consider the B2's guilt, and just attack and insult anyone with an opinion different from their own, and another smaller group who are trying to put across an objective argument who are responded to with childish insults. This forum is about reasoning out the facts and information given so that we may try and get to the truth, that is all that matters, not that I think this will ever be achieved as this whole case has been handled abysmally, which is so sad for the victims, the families and the few on this forum who don't have a hatred for the country they have chosen to reside in, or the few that have a personal financial interest in supporting a very badly handled murder case. If this were your daughter, would you to be happy that the rapist goes free of a murder charge because it could be only be proven that rape took place, but there was no definite evidence of murder? What would you like in this case, justice or the letter of the law adhered to? I would imagine to most unbiased people without any agenda, it would be ludicrous to suggest that they rapist was not party to this murder. If you choose to respond please do so intelligently, I am very interested in hearing all opinions and contradictions to my theory. I would just like the truth, whatever that may be, I have no interest in being 'right'.

I think the very big point you don't understand is that I and other 'non-RTP supporters' are quite able to accept the guilt of the B2 if it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt, in a fair open trial. I haven't posted on this topic for a long while, but from what I've seen the RTP/Prosecution have yet to offer up any conclusive evidence to convict them of anything other than riding a motorcycle without a helmet (CCTV still). IMHO the B2 may well have been involved in the rape and murders, but only as 'submissive servants' acting under orders of the gang of beasts who carried out the horrific crimes. BTW I also agree with a previous poster who opined that Hannah's facial injuries were carried out by someone hellbent on totally disfiguring her, as an act of revenge.

[PaPiPuPePo]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Near the bottom of the article Woraphan Toovichien, after denying his son was the killer, then

denied the characterization of his family as island “mafia.”

"We are not mafia or influential figures as reported in the news."

Though it wouldn't be easy, it should be possible to learn enough about the way his family conducts business and how they wield their obvious power on KT to determine whether their way they operate is mafia-like or not. If it's just BAU then he's being truthful. If however his family does act like mafia, then he's lying and covering that up, which means any statements of his or his family (i.e. brother, son) regarding the murders have zero credibility.

I personally am not convinced by his words, and after all it's only his word against theirs (the media outlet). The defamation laws in Thailand favour the plaintiffs and the Toovichiens have deeper pockets than khaosaden.

JLCrab is presenting this as strong evidence of "DoDo"'s innocence, but is it?

[Gweiloman]

"The prosecution case is weak"

Correction, if I may be so bold, the prosecution case is non-existent. To me the single most astounding thing I have read so far (among many astounding things) is the report that the RTP did not test the alleged murder weapon for finger prints or DNA (assuming this is true as I, as others, have seen some video of the hoe being swabbed – inconvenient prints/DNA perhaps?). If only one thing was needed to sum up this travesty it is this. How can there be a murder trial without a weapon? Or a believable motive?

Last year JDA or JTJ (I can’t remember which and apologies for bringing them up) referred several times to the “overwhelming evidence” against the B2. Well after 10 (11?) days of the prosecution presenting their case we have yet to hear of a single piece of evidence of any kind other than claims of a DNA match which to me, coming from the RTP, qualifies as hearsay - and even if correct only goes to rape not murder as has been stated a number of times. I am a little puzzled why the defense asked for new samples if the RTP was to be involved in any way. Do we know for sure the chain of custody of these new samples? I see references to the results being "returned directly to the defense" but what happens to them before this? IMHO there has been way too much emphasis on the DNA unless there is a silver bullet coming from the UK (assuming it will be admissible).

And, for what it’s worth, a couple of weeks ago I met a young lady from Norfolk who works with Hannah’s cousin. She told me the family absolutely does NOT believe what they were told. Sorry shills, I can’t post a link since I wasn’t wearing a wire.

"and even if correct only goes to rape not murder"

So what you are saying is they raped her and then went home to bed, and someone else came along and killed Hannah and David.

Put it like that and it sounds silly BUT you cannot make assumptions in law. It must be proved, with evidence that they did commit the murder. Just because they "may" be able to link them to rape does not mean you can prove that they killed them.

Gazzpa, what was written by Phuketandsee was shocking to me, hence why I responded. I am equally as shocked by your statement, you have suggested that IF the B2 are found to have raped Hannah, it does not implicate them in the murders. You are therefore suggesting that the rapist may not be the murderer? Please correct me if I am wrong.. To follow your line of thought, they should be free to walk away from this without a murder charge. It seems ludicrous to suggest the rapist walked away and someone entirely new came along and committed the murder. I have heard some incredible assumptions on this forum but the one from yourself and phuketandsee are at the top of the list. I have come to the opinion that many on this forum are not interested in justice for Hannah and David, it appears there are two groups of people, a group who will not even consider the B2's guilt, and just attack and insult anyone with an opinion different from their own, and another smaller group who are trying to put across an objective argument who are responded to with childish insults. This forum is about reasoning out the facts and information given so that we may try and get to the truth, that is all that matters, not that I think this will ever be achieved as this whole case has been handled abysmally, which is so sad for the victims, the families and the few on this forum who don't have a hatred for the country they have chosen to reside in, or the few that have a personal financial interest in supporting a very badly handled murder case. If this were your daughter, would you to be happy that the rapist goes free of a murder charge because it could be only be proven that rape took place, but there was no definite evidence of murder? What would you like in this case, justice or the letter of the law adhered to? I would imagine to most unbiased people without any agenda, it would be ludicrous to suggest that they rapist was not party to this murder. If you choose to respond please do so intelligently, I am very interested in hearing all opinions and contradictions to my theory. I would just like the truth, whatever that may be, I have no interest in being 'right'.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/770056-koh-tao-murder-suspects-tell-rights-commission-they-were-beaten/page-7#entry8563767

[JLCrab]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

Thank you.

Apologising for linking the son to the murders = Fair enough given the circumstances.

Apologising for referring to the Toovichiens as a mafia family = People need a laugh.

Disregarding any connections to the murder for a moment, but anyone who doesn't think this family are "mafia" are either naive, or are enormous pedants who will spend 3 pages of thread bogged down in the semantics of the term "mafia"

Near the bottom of the article Woraphan Toovichien, after denying his son was the killer, then

denied the characterization of his family as island “mafia.”

"We are not mafia or influential figures as reported in the news."

Though it wouldn't be easy, it should be possible to learn enough about the way his family conducts business and how they wield their obvious power on KT to determine whether their way they operate is mafia-like or not. If it's just BAU then he's being truthful. If however his family does act like mafia, then he's lying and covering that up, which means any statements of his or his family (i.e. brother, son) regarding the murders have zero credibility.

I personally am not convinced by his words, and after all it's only his word against theirs (the media outlet). The defamation laws in Thailand favour the plaintiffs and the Toovichiens have deeper pockets than khaosaden.

JLCrab is presenting this as strong evidence of "DoDo"'s innocence, but is it?

It isn't proof of anything other than the newspaper somehow printed a statement that they would not be able to prove in Court.

[sweatalot]

It appears to me that the defense strategy not to retest the DNA under the court's conditions makes sense- why retest unless you can use an independent source. there is no chain of custody on the DNA. Therefore it is tainted and should hopefully be ignored. The same with the confessions and reenactment- too much doubt as to possible mistreatment and beating of the B2. In addition, the 'translator' has no credibility. As an outsider looking in- the Prosecution case is collapsing piece by piece.

I still want to know what happened in the AC bar. To me- that is the central piece to establishing why the two young visitors might have been killed. Was there an altercation? Did someone try and flirt with Hannah and were they rejected? Right now, I cannot wrap my head around any motive the B2 may have had to kill the deceased. Without a motive, there is no reason to believe they did it. However, a larger motive may exist if someone can find out what happened in the AC bar. Has anyone gone to the bar, asked questions or even attempted to find a witness or witnesses? Normally, a defense team will have a private investigator retrace all the steps of the people in the case.Many questions-no answers yet.

You do understand that the defence are still proceeding with the DNA taken from the B2 in the court In front of witness's that they have a chain of custody for ???..

Regarding Hannah well I think theres a few things to consider.

She came from a small village in Norfolk Hemsby. She went to Small schools in a rural setting where your protected in a way from many things. Violence for example. She probably trusted people easily. She was training to be a speech therapist so she was a helper. A giver.. someone who wanted to do something for society. A generally decent human being.

she did have a boyfriend for some time I believe however they had broken up a few months before she went on her trip with 2 other Hannahs and Emma.

I believe she had met someone perhaps the night before maybe at the pub crawl? Remember they had only been there a couple of days and she had possibly arranged to meet them in the AC bar. I think she didnt want to be disturbed either as she left her mobile phone with her friend. Something you may only do if u wanted no distractions? ?

They met at the AC bar and over a period of time there was some friction between her and a Thai person?... David Intervened and they left. With a pack of angry people headed by one man. The man she had fallen oit with and possibly the person she went to meet, heading the pack.

They had nearly reached their rooms perhaps running along the way. The pack split and some attacked David whilst others restrained Hannah. Perhaps the main perpetrator raping her while his gang watched on. David having been knocked out they pulled some of his clothes of to arrange it like he was making out with Hannah. One his helpers who was nearby picked up the hoe and when he had finished the helper bashed Hannah brutally and killed her.

This crime scene contains massive violence and anger. Anger at rejection maybe?? Anger at David for protecting Hannah...

Whatever took place I think it was several people. Not 2... if u have seen Thai's fight you will know they go mob handed. If you have been in Thailand for a while u may have seen them kick off. I have many times having lived in villages as well as towns.

As for the B2 and a motive. ... welI don't think they had one.

The source of the motive comes from that bar. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow I am sure it started in there and finshed in murder 300 metres along the beach.

The first part - might be, but just another speculation

The second - speculation, too, but much more likely

[sweatalot]

It appears to me that the defense strategy not to retest the DNA under the court's conditions makes sense- why retest unless you can use an independent source. there is no chain of custody on the DNA. Therefore it is tainted and should hopefully be ignored. The same with the confessions and reenactment- too much doubt as to possible mistreatment and beating of the B2. In addition, the 'translator' has no credibility. As an outsider looking in- the Prosecution case is collapsing piece by piece.

I still want to know what happened in the AC bar. To me- that is the central piece to establishing why the two young visitors might have been killed. Was there an altercation? Did someone try and flirt with Hannah and were they rejected? Right now, I cannot wrap my head around any motive the B2 may have had to kill the deceased. Without a motive, there is no reason to believe they did it. However, a larger motive may exist if someone can find out what happened in the AC bar. Has anyone gone to the bar, asked questions or even attempted to find a witness or witnesses? Normally, a defense team will have a private investigator retrace all the steps of the people in the case.Many questions-no answers yet.

This may be the closest you can get at least for now:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/page-185#entry9660041

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/?view=findpost&p=9659889

Perhaps JL, but then that was just a random post by some dude with a history of 7 posts, so his word on what transpired is subject to the same speculation as everything else I guess.

I doubt we'll ever get any factual information about what really went on that night.

He was in the AC bar the evening of September 14, 2014 which sets him apart from everyone else on here. Just because he had the sense good or otherwise to not answer everyone who questioned his report at the time doesn't mean his report was not factual.

Any evidence he was in AC bar that night?

Everybody who has been there at any other time could write this post - with just a few lies included

[boomerangutang]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

The bar probably opens about 8 or 9, and wraps up about 3 to 4 am (even tho they're supposedly required to close at 2). That's 6 to 8 hours. Did the guy hang there for that entire time? .....and notice everyone who entered and left?

Regardless, it's interesting that the CCTV aimed at AC entrance only seemed to work until David entered. Only the RTP know who was shown entering and leaving before and after the shot of David. RTP described David as acting drunk when entering, but to objective observers he didn't look at all drunk. Why would RTP try to convince the judges David was drunk at 1:30 am (3 hours before the crime). ....to make it appear he would more likely be lustful? ....and therefore more likely to deserve getting bashed for being lustful on the beach? ....by two small men who apparently flew in to a murderous rage at seeing two farang kissing.

[boomerangutang]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1439558550&section=12

In the statement published today, Khaosod said it was publicly apologizing as part of a settlement agreement with Warot, who filed a libel suit against the paper over its coverage.[/size]

something like this....?

[thailandchilli]

mmmm latest news from the UK

Thailand tourist murders: Accused men's bid to access Met report rejected

The men accused of the murder of two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao in Thailand have failed in a High Court bid in London to gain access to a confidential report prepared by the Metropolitan Police.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/thailand-tourist-murders-accused-mens-bid-access-met-124942675.html#CaNq2bP

[loonodingle]

mmmm latest news from the UK

Thailand tourist murders: Accused men's bid to access Met report rejected

The men accused of the murder of two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao in Thailand have failed in a High Court bid in London to gain access to a confidential report prepared by the Metropolitan Police.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/thailand-tourist-murders-accused-mens-bid-access-met-124942675.html#CaNq2bP

The solicitors have been trying to get this for months. Shame on the British justice system thats complicit in fitting people up.

[brewsterbudgen]

mmmm latest news from the UK

Thailand tourist murders: Accused men's bid to access Met report rejected

The men accused of the murder of two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao in Thailand have failed in a High Court bid in London to gain access to a confidential report prepared by the Metropolitan Police.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/thailand-tourist-murders-accused-mens-bid-access-met-124942675.html#CaNq2bP

The solicitors have been trying to get this for months. Shame on the British justice system thats complicit in fitting people up.

So now the British are in on the cover up? Come on. A British judge read it and decided it would not benefit the defendants' case.

"There is nothing in the report which is exculpatory or would be of material assistance to the claimants in the operation of their defence in the course of the trial."

Their lawyer, while disappointed, said "But they are reassured that at least a British judge has now looked at the information held by the Metropolitan Police, applying anxious scrutiny, and determined that it would not assist them in their ongoing proceedings in Thailand."