Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[thailandchilli]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

[smedly]

Well today is the day many have been waiting for, the start of the Defense Teams period in court. Hopefully we get some good reporting on the court deliberations and some new revelations will come to light.

yes indeed, and welcome to the discussion

There are some professional people posting here so although a lot of it is opinion/observation it is also quite factual

TBH this case should have been dismissed serveral trial days ago and a hot team of seasoned Thai investigators brought in to sort this nonesense out with a fresh start and leave no stone uncovered

Still not saying B2 are innocent but (as I have said many times) I have seen nothing presented indicating guilt or even close to it

It would be interesting to see if Panya is called as a witness, he might have a story to tell if he actually told the truth

[sweatalot]

But DNA found on Miss Witheridges body and a cigarette butt nearby did not match samples taken from three Westerners, including Chris, and nine migrant workers.

http://liverpoolinnews.com/agony-of-british-beach-murder-victims-family-as-clueless-thai-police-probe-descends-into-farce-after-dna-tests-clear-jersey-brothers-and-10-other-suspects-over-their-deaths/

Anyone know who the other two 'westerners' were whose DNA did not match apart from Chris Ware? As far as I'm aware, there has never been any mention of the two young blonde men sitting at the back of this photo.

Of course - James Ware was one of them. He left the island the day or night before the murders apparently. Was the other one McAnna - anyone know?

No neither is McAnna. He looks like this.

sean-mcanna-lotus.jpg

Yes. And this is the state of his guitar when he leaves Koh Tao. Not something we should forget.

Don't get me going about McAnna. The one guy who spoke out. Also the guy who was named as seen with a lot of blood on him. Gets police escort of the islands a few hours after his allegations.

Anyway you know this whole case is riddle with madness. And one I doubt we will never work out unless someone pillow talks after a heavy night or bout of guilt Don't hold your breath though..

Actually I'm 100% confident that someone will spill the beans or as I've said before one of the UK Sunday papers will latch on to it, probably already are, and the truth will come out. This whole case is unprecedented in Thai courts and there is generally a interest in this case. Let's be honest here whoever gets the real story is going to sell so many papers etc. not what's important to most including me I might add but a paper could bring down the court and police set up in Thailand overnight if the real story comes out. And as I said It will for sure. Money and time will ensure it will.

unprecedented -

you mean that it is made public is unprecedented ?

[StealthEnergiser]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

Exactly and it is time PM Prayuth takes further action on this and confirm if he was aware of the hair before he made his comments that they had the correct people.

Edited September 2, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[smedly]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

[boomerangutang]

"Thai police say key DNA evidence in murders of Britons has been lost"

B's comment: Hours after an RTP witness claimed the hair was lost, Chief cop Somyot said at a press conference "nothing was lost."

But later still, "Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod, who led the original investigation, said some evidence could no longer be re-tested as it had been lost, including a hair sample found in Witheridge’s hand."

B's further comment: Getting truth from RTP is like trying to line up helium balloons on a windy day. I bet they now ruefully regret their decision, in Oct. to frame the B2. However, their overall plan is on-track: to divert attention away from anyone connected to the Headman.

From the article by Sarah Yuen today:

Mr Miller’s family are attending the latest round of court hearings on Koh Samui but Ms Witheridge’s family are not.
They are receiving daily written reports instead.

I wonder how that works, since no note-taking is allowed in court? It would seem that the Witheridge family are having to rely on the press reports from Sarah Yuen, just like the rest of us.

You might think that, because the important trial is in Thailand, that one of thousands of Thai reporters would be covering it. If it was a Katoy beauty contest or an unveiling of a new skin whitening cream product, the Thai press corps would be out in flying colors.

[oldsailor35]

So why did they produce the evidence in court as it has no bearing on the prosecutions case.

In fact if anything it undermines it as the hair was supposed to be another nail against the B2.

As far as I know that hair was not part of the evidence presented against the defendants.

Even back in September the police were saying that they couldn't get any useful information out of it.

September 19th: "DNA testing on a strand of blonde hair found in Ms Witheridge's hand also proved inconclusive"

So let's get this right. The hair didn't have any bearing on the prosecution case ! So the hair had to belong to someone but as it didn't fit with the B2 it was dismissed. Criminal. Was it to much to imagine that as it belonged to someone it might have belonged to someone involved in the crime. Maybe to close to home to investigate further.! Alarm bells should have gone off then with the investigation but as we all suspect ,or most of us do, the perps were already identified regardless of evidence. As has been proven over the course of the case. And the actually murderers are still out there and will do again and probably did before too!

I think have done again is closer to the truth. Numerous people have died in mysterious circumstances since. A hanging with hands tied behind back and a woman found dead in the same guest house are 2 that spring to mind.

Yes but that hanging was suicide, so case proved there .

[thailandchilli]

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 13m13 minutes ago

Day 14 Koh Tao trial starts 10am. Zaw Lin accused 1 takes stand explain publicly what he was doing 14/15 Sept & experience of arrest 2nd Oct

[boomerangutang]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

You're assuming Thai forensic people are apprised of what to do, and doing it. That's a big assumption. There are reams of other things investigators and forensics didn't do, or else they did - and didn't like the results because it either: didn't implicate the B2 or implicated people they're compelled to shield from scrutiny. I've made lists before on these threads (of the many things RTP aren't doing) so I'll refrain for now (I might be getting carpal syndrome from typing the same things over and over). However, at the very least, let's hope when the next heinous crimes happen in Thailand, that officials will do some of the following:

>>> cordon off the crime scene. Use latex gloves, bag and tag professionally.

>>> tell everyone in the vicinity not to clean or rearrange things (there was a Thai VIP murdered at a Bkk hotel, years ago. Before police arrived, hotel maids thoroughly cleaned the room. They didn't want anyone to see the mess).

>>> allow independent investigators/detectives. Currently, only RTP are allowed to do those jobs

>>> try and get professional forensic experts on the scene a.s.a.p. The forensics at the KT site were pathetic.

>>> Allow foreign experts to assist. They not only have better expertise, they have better equipment. and are better able to think-outside-the-box, and aren't cowed by social stratifications which are so deeply embedded in the Thai psyche.

>>> Don't lie.

>>> If summoning a top brass policeman for disciplinary action (for purposefully skewing a crime investigation, for example), just arrest him and grab his passport. Don't give him notice, so he can grab his money and run off permanently to a rich farang country (has happened b4 with RTP officials).

[boomerangutang]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during their last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

If I was the judge, I'd say to prosecution: "sorry guys. We have protocol for how to submit evidence. You can't just drop a bunch of papers on my desk and say, 'there you see - there's more proof of guilt,' and then just walk away. Mai dee, dudes. I won't accept these papers."

Edited September 2, 2015 by boomerangutang

[stephenterry]

So will someone in here please sum up the many days and hours of the prosecution case in here please.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

As of now what evidence has the RTP produced in court? to have a conviction of the B2.

DNA evidence....NO

Witness to the event...NO

CCTV images ....NO

Confessions...... NO

Fingerprints or other such evidence......NO

Motive....... NO

Association or link to supposed murder weapon.......NO

Previous of suspects......NO

Am clutching at straws now..feel free to help me.!!

Have I missed something. How the hell did this 'perfect case' make it to court !!

Please....tell me...what evidence has been produced in how many days....NONE !

Thank you prosecution for a perfect defense on behalf of the B2.!!

To sum it up: this all makes it evident that the wrong people are on trial here

So if they are the wrong ones - which one might be the right?

Most of those who followed the case from the beginning believe that Nomsod and Mon and may be others and may be Police General Somiot (- or what is his name?) should be the accused

Please note: we are not saying they did it !

A succession of senior police officers have testified that the B2 did it. Authority trumps substantiated evidence, here. The prosecution's case will rest on that, the CCTV showing the B2 buying cigarettes matching those at the crime scene, the running man allegedly a B2, plus the illegal crime reenactment, illegal confessions (since recanted) obtained as witnessed by others, and the phone found in the bushes at the B2's lodgings. It was also reported yesterday that the prosecution submitted a load more 'evidence' to the court. As the defence are unable to cross examine (by way of any witness) the contents, they would have to contest any information that was detrimental to their case.

As AH has said, the defence (despite the paucity of the prosecution's case) still faces an uphill battle (whatever we think). Bottom line is what the judges conclude. As they can legally cherry-pick, without any comeback on their verdict, this case is far from over.

And IMO, any verdict will be appealed.

Edited September 2, 2015 by stephenterry

[Jai Dee]

One post containing defamation and flaming has been removed from this thread.

[fireplay]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during the last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

Mr boomer is that day 13 or witness 13? I sure would like a definitive prosecution witness tally...at least one damn fact in this debacle!

Edit for spelling and clarity

Edited September 2, 2015 by fireplay

[boomerangutang]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during the last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

Mr boomer is that day 13 or witness 13? I sure would like a definitive prosecution witness tally...at least one damn fact in this debacle!

Edit for spelling and clarity

I initially misread AH's message to indicated 13 witnesses, but upon re-reading it, I see he meant 'day 13.' Even so, as you allude, there have been dozens less witnesses by the prosecution than the 65 mentioned weeks ago.

[Fat Haggis]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

[StealthEnergiser]

"Thai police say key DNA evidence in murders of Britons has been lost"

B's comment: Hours after an RTP witness claimed the hair was lost, Chief cop Somyot said at a press conference "nothing was lost."

But later still, "Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod, who led the original investigation, said some evidence could no longer be re-tested as it had been lost, including a hair sample found in Witheridge’s hand."

B's further comment: Getting truth from RTP is like trying to line up helium balloons on a windy day. I bet they now ruefully regret their decision, in Oct. to frame the B2. However, their overall plan is on-track: to divert attention away from anyone connected to the Headman.

From the article by Sarah Yuen today:

Mr Miller’s family are attending the latest round of court hearings on Koh Samui but Ms Witheridge’s family are not.

They are receiving daily written reports instead.

I wonder how that works, since no note-taking is allowed in court? It would seem that the Witheridge family are having to rely on the press reports from Sarah Yuen, just like the rest of us.

You might think that, because the important trial is in Thailand, that one of thousands of Thai reporters would be covering it. If it was a Katoy beauty contest or an unveiling of a new skin whitening cream product, the Thai press corps would be out in flying colors.

If Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod has misled the court and lied about the hair being missing yet the police pathologist has said she put it aside , shouldn't the both be stood down and investigated .

Why put a peice of hair aside it must have been tested as they have confirmed it was not from hannah or david.

This is disgraceful police work being played out and watched by thousands.

And if people hadn't to taken an interest in this case these to boys could have been given life sentences due to forced confessions involving torture.

The only way forward for the thailand government now is to take strong action if people have deliberately covered up for the real killers of david and hannah.

Life sentences should be a minimum,if corrupt police are involved.

[stephenterry]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during their last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

If I was the judge, I'd say to prosecution: "sorry guys. We have protocol for how to submit evidence. You can't just drop a bunch of papers on my desk and say, 'there you see - there's more proof of guilt,' and then just walk away. Mai dee, dudes. I won't accept these papers."

I agree. The arrogance of the RTP senior officers knows no limit. And they couldn't give a toss.

[grumpyoldman]

This "blonde hair" found clutched in the hand, when did we first hear of this? Now, it's not around to be tested (?), is that right? Red herring anybody?

The hoe, came from the AC bar, the AC bar gardener supposedly moved it, then AC bar guy has it put back. All were partying at this AC bar in previous night(s) to the murders, a picture in this thread has McKenna dancing in front of AC bar sign. Seems it all comes back to this AC bar.

You pull all those guys in for DNA testing, get phone records from the cel companies, be sure that they can account (with credible witnesses) their movements at the times of the murders. Or has that been responsibly (unpaid), done already?

[thailandchilli]

"Thai police say key DNA evidence in murders of Britons has been lost"

B's comment: Hours after an RTP witness claimed the hair was lost, Chief cop Somyot said at a press conference "nothing was lost."

But later still, "Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod, who led the original investigation, said some evidence could no longer be re-tested as it had been lost, including a hair sample found in Witheridge’s hand."

B's further comment: Getting truth from RTP is like trying to line up helium balloons on a windy day. I bet they now ruefully regret their decision, in Oct. to frame the B2. However, their overall plan is on-track: to divert attention away from anyone connected to the Headman.

From the article by Sarah Yuen today:

Mr Miller’s family are attending the latest round of court hearings on Koh Samui but Ms Witheridge’s family are not.

They are receiving daily written reports instead.

I wonder how that works, since no note-taking is allowed in court? It would seem that the Witheridge family are having to rely on the press reports from Sarah Yuen, just like the rest of us.

You might think that, because the important trial is in Thailand, that one of thousands of Thai reporters would be covering it. If it was a Katoy beauty contest or an unveiling of a new skin whitening cream product, the Thai press corps would be out in flying colors.

If Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod has misled the court and lied about the hair being missing yet the police pathologist has said she put it aside , shouldn't the both be stood down and investigated .

Why put a peice of hair aside it must have been tested as they have confirmed it was not from hannah or david.

This is disgraceful police work being played out and watched by thousands.

And if people hadn't to taken an interest in this case these to boys could have been given life sentences due to forced confessions involving torture.

The only way forward for the thailand government now is to take strong action if people have deliberately covered up for the real killers of david and hannah.

Life sentences should be a minimum,if corrupt police are involved.

The reports we're getting on these inconsistencies/contradictions are worded diplomatically, they are out and out lies being perpetrated. Why lie? To cover something

[stephenterry]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

I believe the verdict is neither here no there - whatever the outcome it will be taken to an appeal. By the time it finally reaches the Supreme court several years could have passed with the B2 still incarcerated if they are refused bail which (as there is a flight risk) would be likely.

In the meantime any DNA evidence would have joined the 'lost or used-up pile' and the defence team run out of funds. It does not bode well, my friends.

[boomerangutang]

This "blonde hair" found clutched in the hand, when did we first hear of this? Now, it's not around to be tested (?), is that right? Red herring anybody?

The hoe, came from the AC bar, the AC bar gardener supposedly moved it, then AC bar guy has it put back. All were partying at this AC bar in previous night(s) to the murders, a picture in this thread has McKenna dancing in front of AC bar sign. Seems it all comes back to this AC bar.

You pull all those guys in for DNA testing, get phone records from the cel companies, be sure that they can account (with credible witnesses) their movements at the times of the murders. Or has that been responsibly (unpaid), done already?

You're talking like some guy who proposes the RTP should do their jobs in a somewhat adept fashion. Did someone slip some mugwort leaves in your pillow case last night?

[grumpyoldman]

This "blonde hair" found clutched in the hand, when did we first hear of this? Now, it's not around to be tested (?), is that right? Red herring anybody?

The hoe, came from the AC bar, the AC bar gardener supposedly moved it, then AC bar guy has it put back. All were partying at this AC bar in previous night(s) to the murders, a picture in this thread has McKenna dancing in front of AC bar sign. Seems it all comes back to this AC bar.

You pull all those guys in for DNA testing, get phone records from the cel companies, be sure that they can account (with credible witnesses) their movements at the times of the murders. Or has that been responsibly (unpaid), done already?

You're talking like some guy who proposes the RTP should do their jobs in a somewhat adept fashion. Did someone slip some mugwort leaves in your pillow case last night?

Possibly now in my coffee !

[happy Joe]

All accessories items such as telephone, hair, traces hoe on the condom and cigarette butts are only presumptions. Certainly important but debatable ad infinitum.

However the DNA match (or discordance) will be the indisputable proof.

The defence will certainly make its case to challenge the validity of the analyzes. But his options are limited for the following reasons:

1- Sampling and examination on the bodies of victims predates that performed on suspects. He probably left traces in the body sent in the UK. It will be difficult to challenge.

2- The challenge for suspects is worthless. The DNA does not change with time, and at any time any lawyer can get against expertise.

That is why the courts and justice exist and have more credibility than lounge detectives.

[stephenterry]

"Thai police say key DNA evidence in murders of Britons has been lost"

B's comment: Hours after an RTP witness claimed the hair was lost, Chief cop Somyot said at a press conference "nothing was lost."

But later still, "Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod, who led the original investigation, said some evidence could no longer be re-tested as it had been lost, including a hair sample found in Witheridge’s hand."

B's further comment: Getting truth from RTP is like trying to line up helium balloons on a windy day. I bet they now ruefully regret their decision, in Oct. to frame the B2. However, their overall plan is on-track: to divert attention away from anyone connected to the Headman.

From the article by Sarah Yuen today:

Mr Miller’s family are attending the latest round of court hearings on Koh Samui but Ms Witheridge’s family are not.

They are receiving daily written reports instead.

I wonder how that works, since no note-taking is allowed in court? It would seem that the Witheridge family are having to rely on the press reports from Sarah Yuen, just like the rest of us.

You might think that, because the important trial is in Thailand, that one of thousands of Thai reporters would be covering it. If it was a Katoy beauty contest or an unveiling of a new skin whitening cream product, the Thai press corps would be out in flying colors.

If Police Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod has misled the court and lied about the hair being missing yet the police pathologist has said she put it aside , shouldn't the both be stood down and investigated .

Why put a peice of hair aside it must have been tested as they have confirmed it was not from hannah or david.

This is disgraceful police work being played out and watched by thousands.

And if people hadn't to taken an interest in this case these to boys could have been given life sentences due to forced confessions involving torture.

The only way forward for the thailand government now is to take strong action if people have deliberately covered up for the real killers of david and hannah.

Life sentences should be a minimum,if corrupt police are involved.

The reports we're getting on these inconsistencies/contradictions are worded diplomatically, they are out and out lies being perpetrated. Why lie? To cover something

It's probably more to do with gaining a conviction, whatever it takes. That, and to please their bosses. Let's face it, what senior policeman cares a jot about migrant workers? They must be pretty peed off that they have to bother to attend court, or that some Thai lawyer is actually defending the accused.

[grumpyoldman]

All accessories items such as telephone, hair, traces hoe on the condom and cigarette butts are only presumptions. Certainly important but debatable ad infinitum.

However the DNA match (or discordance) will be the indisputable proof.

The defence will certainly make its case to challenge the validity of the analyzes. But his options are limited for the following reasons:

1- Sampling and examination on the bodies of victims predates that performed on suspects. He probably left traces in the body sent in the UK. It will be difficult to challenge.

2- The challenge for suspects is worthless. The DNA does not change with time, and at any time any lawyer can get against expertise.

That is why the courts and justice exist and have more credibility than lounge detectives.

100% sure that this DNA evidence was not manipulated? Did you see where Dr. Pornthip had concerns over the process? Is there a guarantee that the B2 DNA found on the cigarettes, that the cigarettes actually came from the beach? Upon requested further DNA review later, it had been "lost".

As you peel an onion it does get smellier.

[stephenterry]

All accessories items such as telephone, hair, traces hoe on the condom and cigarette butts are only presumptions. Certainly important but debatable ad infinitum.

However the DNA match (or discordance) will be the indisputable proof.

The defence will certainly make its case to challenge the validity of the analyzes. But his options are limited for the following reasons:

1- Sampling and examination on the bodies of victims predates that performed on suspects. He probably left traces in the body sent in the UK. It will be difficult to challenge.

2- The challenge for suspects is worthless. The DNA does not change with time, and at any time any lawyer can get against expertise.

That is why the courts and justice exist and have more credibility than lounge detectives.

Your last sentence made me laugh. BTW, DNA at best can only be circumstantial evidence that needs to have other 'evidence' to support it.

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

When spend lots of time around Thai police officers, can see they not so different to everyone else. Still hope for systematic police reform

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Many people asking what is Koh Tao defense team task. Quite simply explain accused confessions, substantiate torture and question DNA match

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

If you ask case lawyers they surely have more complex strategy. But in laymen terms understanding prosecution witnesses seems those 3 issues

[grumpyoldman]

Lets look at this Sean Mckenna (sorry if I have that spelling wrong) again.

Why did Sean have blood on him? He also bled onto his guitar.

Why were the AC bar guys chasing him (?), there are pictures of him hiding out in a minimart as those angry guys were outside. He posted via his phone "They are after me".

Why did he post "David was a hero".

Could he have been in the fight with David, saw it was going badly and split before he too was killed?