Is Buddhism a religion?

[rockyysdt]

Rocky,

Are you implying that all conditioning, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy, should be overcome?

For example, I was conditioned by my parents to eat wholesome food and to pay attention to the nutritional content of the various types of food I ate. I was also conditioned to take regular exercise. My father used to cycle to work every day, and sometimes cycle really long distances from England to Scotland to visit his parents.

Throughout my life, I've always insisted on a preference for wholemeal bread and brown rice whenever the choice was available. There's no way I would want to overcome such conditioning, but I am aware of the influence of such conditioning on my behaviour and preferences.

Now in my seventies, I'm very grateful for that conditioning. I'm in good health, not overweight at all, go for long walks which include periods of jogging, can work all day felling trees on my 5 acre property then still go for a jog in the evening.

Because I've been conditioned to place an emphasis on the nutritional value of food rather than the taste, (although I can still appreciate the pleasure of tasty food, such as ice cream), I find I have much more control over my appetite than most people. Complete fasting for 2 or 3 days is no problem, except when I'm doing hard physical work.

The one-meal-a-day lifestyle of the monk would be no problem at all for me. What I would object to is needlessly shaving my head and face, and eating food of substandard nutritional value, which contravenes the advice of the Kalama Sutta.

No V.

Your conditioning would remain.

However your attachment to your conditioning would be broken.

This is the subtle difference.

Edited September 4, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Rocky,

Are you implying that all conditioning, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy, should be overcome?

For example, I was conditioned by my parents to eat wholesome food and to pay attention to the nutritional content of the various types of food I ate. I was also conditioned to take regular exercise. My father used to cycle to work every day, and sometimes cycle really long distances from England to Scotland to visit his parents.

Throughout my life, I've always insisted on a preference for wholemeal bread and brown rice whenever the choice was available. There's no way I would want to overcome such conditioning, but I am aware of the influence of such conditioning on my behaviour and preferences.

Now in my seventies, I'm very grateful for that conditioning. I'm in good health, not overweight at all, go for long walks which include periods of jogging, can work all day felling trees on my 5 acre property then still go for a jog in the evening.

Because I've been conditioned to place an emphasis on the nutritional value of food rather than the taste, (although I can still appreciate the pleasure of tasty food, such as ice cream), I find I have much more control over my appetite than most people. Complete fasting for 2 or 3 days is no problem, except when I'm doing hard physical work.

The one-meal-a-day lifestyle of the monk would be no problem at all for me. What I would object to is needlessly shaving my head and face, and eating food of substandard nutritional value, which contravenes the advice of the Kalama Sutta.

No V.

Your conditioning would remain.

However your attachment to your conditioning would be broken.

This is the subtle difference.

This needs to be fleshed out. To do this, let's concentrate on a specific example, such as my conditioning to eat wholesome food.

My conditioning does not result in my always eating a particular dish, or preparation, or a particular loaf of bread, unthinkingly, because it has the 'label' of being nutritious.

My conditioning is to enquire and examine the nutritional value. For example, there are many types of wholemeal loaves that are so fine and soft, it seems clear they are just brown-colored white bread.

I value the Kalama Sutta because I have been conditioned to question matters.

Now, please tell me, Rocky, if I were to break my attachment to my conditioning with regard to eating wholesome food, would that result in a lack of concern about the nutritional value of the food I eat? Simple question. Yes or No, and the reasons why.

[rockyysdt]

This needs to be fleshed out. To do this, let's concentrate on a specific example, such as my conditioning to eat wholesome food.

My conditioning does not result in my always eating a particular dish, or preparation, or a particular loaf of bread, unthinkingly, because it has the 'label' of being nutritious.

My conditioning is to enquire and examine the nutritional value. For example, there are many types of wholemeal loaves that are so fine and soft, it seems clear they are just brown-colored white bread.

I value the Kalama Sutta because I have been conditioned to question matters.

Now, please tell me, Rocky, if I were to break my attachment to my conditioning with regard to eating wholesome food, would that result in a lack of concern about the nutritional value of the food I eat? Simple question. Yes or No, and the reasons why.

No.

I'll preface by saying I am not speaking through self experience but from what I have learned about Dharma.

Humans have accumulated both good and not so good conditioning.

For the most part 21st century western man eats for pleasure rather than sustenance, although there are exceptions.

Once attachment to Ego is broken, then ones diet will be governed by nature rather than by "greed, aversion, & delusion", although one will not be anal about it.

Food reflection:

With wise reflection I eat this food

Not for play, not for intoxication

Not for fattening, not for beautification

Only to maintain this body

To stay alive and healthy

To support the spiritual way of life

Thus I let go of unpleasant feelings

And do not stir up new ones

Thereby the process of life goes on

Blameless, at ease, and in peace

To the Awakened one the function of food is solely to maintain this body.

Edited September 4, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

This needs to be fleshed out. To do this, let's concentrate on a specific example, such as my conditioning to eat wholesome food.

My conditioning does not result in my always eating a particular dish, or preparation, or a particular loaf of bread, unthinkingly, because it has the 'label' of being nutritious.

My conditioning is to enquire and examine the nutritional value. For example, there are many types of wholemeal loaves that are so fine and soft, it seems clear they are just brown-colored white bread.

I value the Kalama Sutta because I have been conditioned to question matters.

Now, please tell me, Rocky, if I were to break my attachment to my conditioning with regard to eating wholesome food, would that result in a lack of concern about the nutritional value of the food I eat? Simple question. Yes or No, and the reasons why.

For the most part 21st century western man eats for pleasure rather than sustenance, although there are exceptions.

It seems that I am one of the exceptions, through conditioning.

Once attachment to Ego is broken, then ones diet will be governed by nature rather than by "greed, aversion, & delusion", although one will not be anal about it.

A diet governed by nature! Now that's an interesting concept. But what do you mean by that?

According to my interpretation, that would be a hunter/gatherer diet; a diet of berries and fruit plucked from trees, and roasted kangaroos and other wildlife. Very nutritious.

Although I have kangaroos (or Wallabies to be precise) on my property, I would never think of killing them to eat, not only because I'm impressed with Buddhist principles, but also because I think the Wallabies are cute. Nevertheless, Kangaroo meat is considered to be more nutritious than meat from grain-fed cattle.

I would suggest that the ideal diet requires an application of the first two principles of the Eightfold Path, Right Understanding and Right Thought, as applied to the subject of diet, with the benefit of modern dietary science, which was not available to the Buddha, who supposedly died through eating the wrong type of mushroom.

[rockyysdt]

This needs to be fleshed out. To do this, let's concentrate on a specific example, such as my conditioning to eat wholesome food.

My conditioning does not result in my always eating a particular dish, or preparation, or a particular loaf of bread, unthinkingly, because it has the 'label' of being nutritious.

My conditioning is to enquire and examine the nutritional value. For example, there are many types of wholemeal loaves that are so fine and soft, it seems clear they are just brown-colored white bread.

I value the Kalama Sutta because I have been conditioned to question matters.

Now, please tell me, Rocky, if I were to break my attachment to my conditioning with regard to eating wholesome food, would that result in a lack of concern about the nutritional value of the food I eat? Simple question. Yes or No, and the reasons why.

For the most part 21st century western man eats for pleasure rather than sustenance, although there are exceptions.

It seems that I am one of the exceptions, through conditioning.

Once attachment to Ego is broken, then ones diet will be governed by nature rather than by "greed, aversion, & delusion", although one will not be anal about it.

A diet governed by nature! Now that's an interesting concept. But what do you mean by that?

According to my interpretation, that would be a hunter/gatherer diet; a diet of berries and fruit plucked from trees, and roasted kangaroos and other wildlife. Very nutritious.

Although I have kangaroos (or Wallabies to be precise) on my property, I would never think of killing them to eat, not only because I'm impressed with Buddhist principles, but also because I think the Wallabies are cute. Nevertheless, Kangaroo meat is considered to be more nutritious than meat from grain-fed cattle.

I would suggest that the ideal diet requires an application of the first two principles of the Eightfold Path, Right Understanding and Right Thought, as applied to the subject of diet, with the benefit of modern dietary science, which was not available to the Buddha, who supposedly died through eating the wrong type of mushroom.

Have I won you over?

[VincentRJ]

Have I won you over?

No. I'm still trying to work out how becoming unattached to my conditioning, with regard to the eating of healthy food, would change my behaviour for the better.

Are you implying perhaps, that being unattached to such conditioning would allow me to be more flexible with regard to my choice of food, so that I might eat anything that is available?

If my conditioning still remains after I've broken the attachment, would I find myself in the situation of being aware that I am eating substandard, processed, junk food, but not giving a damn because I'm no longer attached to the conditioning? How would that help me?

I'm already reasonably flexible. I do occasionally eat white rice when brown rice is not available, and occasionally enjoy the delights of a dish of ice cream. Hey! Maybe I'm already unattached to my conditioning but don't know it.

[rockyysdt]

Have I won you over?

No. I'm still trying to work out how becoming unattached to my conditioning, with regard to the eating of healthy food, would change my behaviour for the better.

Are you implying perhaps, that being unattached to such conditioning would allow me to be more flexible with regard to my choice of food, so that I might eat anything that is available?

If my conditioning still remains after I've broken the attachment, would I find myself in the situation of being aware that I am eating substandard, processed, junk food, but not giving a damn because I'm no longer attached to the conditioning? How would that help me?

I'm already reasonably flexible. I do occasionally eat white rice when brown rice is not available, and occasionally enjoy the delights of a dish of ice cream. Hey! Maybe I'm already unattached to my conditioning but don't know it.

It would mean that you would have Awakened to a state which will make such considerations insignificant.

Others will no longer eat purely for pleasure.

You however will continue to eat well but you will no longer be mentally compulsive, & rigid with excessive preoccupation.

Edited September 5, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Have I won you over?

No. I'm still trying to work out how becoming unattached to my conditioning, with regard to the eating of healthy food, would change my behaviour for the better.

Are you implying perhaps, that being unattached to such conditioning would allow me to be more flexible with regard to my choice of food, so that I might eat anything that is available?

If my conditioning still remains after I've broken the attachment, would I find myself in the situation of being aware that I am eating substandard, processed, junk food, but not giving a damn because I'm no longer attached to the conditioning? How would that help me?

I'm already reasonably flexible. I do occasionally eat white rice when brown rice is not available, and occasionally enjoy the delights of a dish of ice cream. Hey! Maybe I'm already unattached to my conditioning but don't know it.

It would mean that you would have Awakened to a state which will make such considerations insignificant.

Others will no longer eat purely for pleasure.

You however will continue to eat well but you will no longer be mentally compulsive, & rigid with excessive preoccupation.

Well, I'm not aware of being mentally compulsive with an excessive preoccupation regarding food. I would describe someone as compulsive who has a habit of getting up in the middle of the night to gorge himself on ice cream, as Marlon Brando used to do.

When travelling in Thailand I'm often surprised to see temple abbots who are overweight. Even Buddhadasa, whom you sometimes quote and appear to have great respect for, was definitely overweight, according to the images of him I've seen. Is this the result of the state of 'Awakening', when considerations about food become insignificant?

One can't become overweight without eating too much.

[rockyysdt]

Have I won you over?

No. I'm still trying to work out how becoming unattached to my conditioning, with regard to the eating of healthy food, would change my behaviour for the better.

Are you implying perhaps, that being unattached to such conditioning would allow me to be more flexible with regard to my choice of food, so that I might eat anything that is available?

If my conditioning still remains after I've broken the attachment, would I find myself in the situation of being aware that I am eating substandard, processed, junk food, but not giving a damn because I'm no longer attached to the conditioning? How would that help me?

I'm already reasonably flexible. I do occasionally eat white rice when brown rice is not available, and occasionally enjoy the delights of a dish of ice cream. Hey! Maybe I'm already unattached to my conditioning but don't know it.

It would mean that you would have Awakened to a state which will make such considerations insignificant.

Others will no longer eat purely for pleasure.

You however will continue to eat well but you will no longer be mentally compulsive, & rigid with excessive preoccupation.

PS: I'm not saying you are mentally compulsive, & rigid with excessive preoccupation, but if you were an Arahant, with such eyes this would be the conclusion in such matters.

Edited September 5, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Have I won you over?

No. I'm still trying to work out how becoming unattached to my conditioning, with regard to the eating of healthy food, would change my behaviour for the better.

Are you implying perhaps, that being unattached to such conditioning would allow me to be more flexible with regard to my choice of food, so that I might eat anything that is available?

If my conditioning still remains after I've broken the attachment, would I find myself in the situation of being aware that I am eating substandard, processed, junk food, but not giving a damn because I'm no longer attached to the conditioning? How would that help me?

I'm already reasonably flexible. I do occasionally eat white rice when brown rice is not available, and occasionally enjoy the delights of a dish of ice cream. Hey! Maybe I'm already unattached to my conditioning but don't know it.

It would mean that you would have Awakened to a state which will make such considerations insignificant.

Others will no longer eat purely for pleasure.

You however will continue to eat well but you will no longer be mentally compulsive, & rigid with excessive preoccupation.

Well, I'm not aware of being mentally compulsive with an excessive preoccupation regarding food. I would describe someone as compulsive who has a habit of getting up in the middle of the night to gorge himself on ice cream, as Marlon Brando used to do.

When travelling in Thailand I'm often surprised to see temple abbots who are overweight. Even Buddhadasa, whom you sometimes quote and appear to have great respect for, was definitely overweight, according to the images of him I've seen. Is this the result of the state of 'Awakening', when considerations about food become insignificant?

One can't become overweight without eating too much.

My post didn't come out the way I had intended V.

What I was trying to convey is that viewing such things through an Arahants eyes might appear compulsive, rigid, with excessive preoccupation.

Once Awakened, everything in the impermanent conditioned world would have little significance in comparison.

Maybe Ajahn Buddhadasa's body vs his supposed State is Kharmas way of placing a mental barrier to our personal resolve to practice?

PS: Marlon Brando was deluded.

PSS: Some genetic dispositions are extremely efficient at storing available fat whilst others may eliminate them via the colon. Also some have a higher static metabolic rate than others.

Edited September 5, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Well, I'm not aware of being mentally compulsive with an excessive preoccupation regarding food. I would describe someone as compulsive who has a habit of getting up in the middle of the night to gorge himself on ice cream, as Marlon Brando used to do.

When travelling in Thailand I'm often surprised to see temple abbots who are overweight. Even Buddhadasa, whom you sometimes quote and appear to have great respect for, was definitely overweight, according to the images of him I've seen. Is this the result of the state of 'Awakening', when considerations about food become insignificant?

One can't become overweight without eating too much.

My post didn't come out the way I had intended V.

What I was trying to convey is that viewing such things through an Arahants eyes might appear compulsive, rigid, with excessive preoccupation.

Once Awakened, everything in the impermanent conditioned world would have little significance in comparison.

Maybe Ajahn Buddhadasa's body vs his supposed State is Kharmas way of placing a mental barrier to our personal resolve to practice?

PS: Marlon Brando was deluded.

PSS: Some genetic dispositions are extremely efficient at storing available fat whilst others may eliminate them via the colon. Also some have a higher static metabolic rate than others.

It seems to me, Rocky, if one's goal is to put an end to all degrees of suffering, then a healthy diet and regular exercise are very basic first steps which should be a part of the Eightfold Path with respect to Right Understanding, Right Thought, and Right Action.

In my scheme of things, our well-being is dependent upon 3 broad categories, which I would describe as Vincent's Threefold Path.

1. Right Food

2. Right Exercise

3. Right Attitude of Mind

The third broad category, Right Attitude of Mind, would include most of the principles and practices of Buddhism, directed toward achieving a healthy, calm and equanimous state of mind, free of attachment to all matters that might impede or interfere with that equanimous state of mind.

An Arahant who has reached a stage of enlightenment whereby he places little or no significance on the nutritional quality of the food he eats or the importance of exercise, will probably become overweight, get medical problems sooner than he otherwise would, and will probably die sooner than he otherwise would.

However, if one is stuck in a situation where one has no control over one's diet, then no purpose is served by worrying about it. One of the reasons I was impressed with the Santi Asoke Buddhist community is because they grow their own food in a natural, organic way which provides the maximum amount of nutrients.

[Om85]

Well, I'm not aware of being mentally compulsive with an excessive preoccupation regarding food. I would describe someone as compulsive who has a habit of getting up in the middle of the night to gorge himself on ice cream, as Marlon Brando used to do.

When travelling in Thailand I'm often surprised to see temple abbots who are overweight. Even Buddhadasa, whom you sometimes quote and appear to have great respect for, was definitely overweight, according to the images of him I've seen. Is this the result of the state of 'Awakening', when considerations about food become insignificant?

One can't become overweight without eating too much.

My post didn't come out the way I had intended V.

What I was trying to convey is that viewing such things through an Arahants eyes might appear compulsive, rigid, with excessive preoccupation.

Once Awakened, everything in the impermanent conditioned world would have little significance in comparison.

Maybe Ajahn Buddhadasa's body vs his supposed State is Kharmas way of placing a mental barrier to our personal resolve to practice?

PS: Marlon Brando was deluded.

PSS: Some genetic dispositions are extremely efficient at storing available fat whilst others may eliminate them via the colon. Also some have a higher static metabolic rate than others.

It seems to me, Rocky, if one's goal is to put an end to all degrees of suffering, then a healthy diet and regular exercise are very basic first steps which should be a part of the Eightfold Path with respect to Right Understanding, Right Thought, and Right Action.

In my scheme of things, our well-being is dependent upon 3 broad categories, which I would describe as Vincent's Threefold Path.

1. Right Food

2. Right Exercise

3. Right Attitude of Mind

The third broad category, Right Attitude of Mind, would include most of the principles and practices of Buddhism, directed toward achieving a healthy, calm and equanimous state of mind, free of attachment to all matters that might impede or interfere with that equanimous state of mind.

An Arahant who has reached a stage of enlightenment whereby he places little or no significance on the nutritional quality of the food he eats or the importance of exercise, will probably become overweight, get medical problems sooner than he otherwise would, and will probably die sooner than he otherwise would.

However, if one is stuck in a situation where one has no control over one's diet, then no purpose is served by worrying about it. One of the reasons I was impressed with the Santi Asoke Buddhist community is because they grow their own food in a natural, organic way which provides the maximum amount of nutrients.

Agree with you 100%

[rockyysdt]

Well, I'm not aware of being mentally compulsive with an excessive preoccupation regarding food. I would describe someone as compulsive who has a habit of getting up in the middle of the night to gorge himself on ice cream, as Marlon Brando used to do.

When travelling in Thailand I'm often surprised to see temple abbots who are overweight. Even Buddhadasa, whom you sometimes quote and appear to have great respect for, was definitely overweight, according to the images of him I've seen. Is this the result of the state of 'Awakening', when considerations about food become insignificant?

One can't become overweight without eating too much.

My post didn't come out the way I had intended V.

What I was trying to convey is that viewing such things through an Arahants eyes might appear compulsive, rigid, with excessive preoccupation.

Once Awakened, everything in the impermanent conditioned world would have little significance in comparison.

Maybe Ajahn Buddhadasa's body vs his supposed State is Kharmas way of placing a mental barrier to our personal resolve to practice?

PS: Marlon Brando was deluded.

PSS: Some genetic dispositions are extremely efficient at storing available fat whilst others may eliminate them via the colon. Also some have a higher static metabolic rate than others.

It seems to me, Rocky, if one's goal is to put an end to all degrees of suffering, then a healthy diet and regular exercise are very basic first steps which should be a part of the Eightfold Path with respect to Right Understanding, Right Thought, and Right Action.

In my scheme of things, our well-being is dependent upon 3 broad categories, which I would describe as Vincent's Threefold Path.

1. Right Food

2. Right Exercise

3. Right Attitude of Mind

The third broad category, Right Attitude of Mind, would include most of the principles and practices of Buddhism, directed toward achieving a healthy, calm and equanimous state of mind, free of attachment to all matters that might impede or interfere with that equanimous state of mind.

An Arahant who has reached a stage of enlightenment whereby he places little or no significance on the nutritional quality of the food he eats or the importance of exercise, will probably become overweight, get medical problems sooner than he otherwise would, and will probably die sooner than he otherwise would.

However, if one is stuck in a situation where one has no control over one's diet, then no purpose is served by worrying about it. One of the reasons I was impressed with the Santi Asoke Buddhist community is because they grow their own food in a natural, organic way which provides the maximum amount of nutrients.

No disagreement V.

[VincentRJ]

Excellent! I'm glad that logic and rationality has prevailed.

[fang37]

Call it whatever you like.

For me, it is the benefits that matter.

No instructions - no have to.

An invitation to bliss/ Got me.

[only1]

It's all a matter of the mind.

That is what it meant by mind over matter.

If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

For e.g., even if Islam and the bible advocates killings, of humans.

[rockyysdt]

Call it whatever you like.

For me, it is the benefits that matter.

No instructions - no have to.

An invitation to bliss/ Got me.

Initially yes but bliss can get in your way.

Bliss becomes your trap.

[VincentRJ]

Call it whatever you like.

For me, it is the benefits that matter.

No instructions - no have to.

An invitation to bliss/ Got me.

Initially yes but bliss can get in your way.

Bliss becomes your trap.

Indeed! Isn't a sexual orgasm a type of 'bliss'?

[fang37]

Only for the guy I am with. I love to give too much.

[VincentRJ]

Only for the guy I am with. I love to give too much.

Are you saying you are a homosexual, or is your avatar the real you? I have no prejudice about such matters, but I understand that sexual gratification of any nature, has to be relinquished on the Buddhist path.

Edited October 7, 2015 by VincentRJ

[fang37]

My sexual preference is a very private matter.

I ain't telling ya unless ya have a lotta $$$.

[only1]

Only for the guy I am with. I love to give too much.

Are you saying you are a homosexual, or is your avatar the real you? I have no prejudice about such matters, but I understand that sexual gratification of any nature, has to be relinquished on the Buddhist path.

The Buddha never taught that. You are being misleading or misled. Edited October 7, 2015 by only1

[only1]

My sexual preference is a very private matter.

I ain't telling ya unless ya have a lotta $$$.

If you are implying that you are after someone's money just by telling, your karma will be bad. Wrong path !

[fang37]

The price I am willing to pay.

[Om85]

The price I am willing to pay.

Don't pay attention to Karma and all that stuff cuz is just myth, and anyway if Karma is true we you reincarnate you will not be you cuz all your memories will be deleted, it will a completely new person, so do whatever you want to do always trying to cause as little damage and pain as possible.

[fang37]

I never have grasped the concept of Kamma (& rebirth).

Am I grasping excessively?

[Om85]

I never have grasped the concept of Kamma (& rebirth).

Am I grasping excessively?

Not at all, I have never even understood the concepts of Karma and Rebirth because they are simply stupid.

[fang37]

I never have grasped the concept of Kamma (& rebirth).

Am I grasping excessively?

Not at all, I have never even understood the concepts of Karma and Rebirth because they are simply stupid.

Thank you, sincerely.

I thought that I was the only DH in town.

Now, there are 2 DHs or we are the intelligent ones.

I am unsure. Please confirm, Enlightened One.

[only1]

I never have grasped the concept of Kamma (& rebirth).

Am I grasping excessively?

Not at all, I have never even understood the concepts of Karma and Rebirth because they are simply stupid.

Don't be so sUre they are stupid.

You don't understand as well as misunderstood, based on your previous post. You also misunderstood the meaning of the word karma.

Edited October 7, 2015 by only1

[only1]

The price I am willing to pay.

Don't pay attention to Karma and all that stuff cuz is just myth, and anyway if Karma is true we you reincarnate you will not be you cuz all your memories will be deleted, it will a completely new person, so do whatever you want to do always trying to cause as little damage and pain as possible.

Do you know the meaning of karma ? it means action, how could action be not true ? How about God ? Do you believe in any

god ? I came across many people who don't believe in karma and rebirth but believed in God. That will be really stupid.