A screaming bargain...or not...advice needed regarding buying an unfinished house

[Anthony5]

Not so long ago there were 2 members who had a thread about a similar bargain. It was also Nor Sor Saam gor land and right on the beach.

Some people warned them that if it is too good to be true, it probably isn't true, and why such a bargain is up for grabs for a foreigner while there are thousands of Thais with money who don't buy.

They even insulted some members because they wee gonna make a big project and knew it all.

They haven't returned, but I know from a credible source that it was all a pie in the sky, and they never bought the land.

Thanks also for your useful and insightful post.

I don't rely on credible sources, most of them reside on bar stools.

I have a copy of the title deed. Today I have been at the local land office and it all check out. No encumbrances stamped on the back and land as described. I talked with one of the neighbours today and apparently the owner (a woman) was divorced a few years back and two of her kids have been in and out of jail for drug related offences...net result she is broke and that is why the house has not been completed. She has a tabien ban for the house so there is no (technical) reason why she has not connected the power, just the fact that she does not have the money to do so.

I will be moving forward on the project as follows:

1. I need to find out if it is possible to register a usufruct on a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed
2. If the answer to 1. above is yes I will make an initial offer of 400K with her to pay transfer tax.
3. I will negotiate up to her full price of 500K if need be but I want her to pay the transfer tax.
4. As I understand it any transfer of a NSSG title must be advertised by the land office for 30 days prior to see if anyone wants to contest ownership.
5. During that period I will have the land office survey the property and confirm the (existing) boundary pegs. I understand the fee for this is about 1900thb.
6. Upon taking possession of the property I will pay a Thai contractor to build a 6 metre wall between the neighbouring house on the left and the unfinished house on the subject block. I will then build a two meter wall around the remaining perimeter of the block myself.

Wish me luck and if anyone can answer the usufruct on a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed that would be greatly appreciated.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but you should try to find that thread, and read it from the first to the last post.

They also didn't rely on credible sources, you should read my post again, but they had same as you been to the land office, seen the title deed, spoken with the owner and made a formal agreement. They even knew someone high up in the concerned land office who's gonna clear it all for them.

Wonder why the deal at the end didn't go through? Because the snakes came out of the grass after more and more research.

Only the land, without any building on it, is worth a multiple of what you mention in the OP.

Do you really think that there is no Thai who is aware of this "bargain", know the value and has the funds?

Good luck, keep us informed, but don't get too exited.

Thanks again for you post. However, it adds nothing to the thread.

I don't know, I read the thread titles as

A screaming bargain...or not..

But it is clear that you have made up your mind already before you even posted the thread. Never mind keep dreaming.

Good advice. ask to see the ORIGINAL title deed from the owner not from the land office, because laon sharks don't register their loans on the back of the title deed, they simply take possession of the title deed from the owner.

[flash=]http://youtu.be/5J11OHfHSfs

Edited September 3, 2015 by Anthony5

[Bulldozer Dawn]

I don't know, I read the thread titles as

A screaming bargain...or not..

But it is clear that you have made up your mind already before you even posted the thread. Never mind keep dreaming.

Good advice. ask to see the ORIGINAL title deed from the owner not from the land office, because laon sharks don't register their loans on the back of the title deed, they simply take possession of the title deed from the owner.

[flash=]http://youtu.be/5J11OHfHSfs

The copy of the deed I have was made by me from the original held by the owner. I have confirmed it is genuine and unencumbered at the land office. I have now blocked your posts at my end. You are taking up too much space without adding anything constructive. Thanks again for your input.

[Anthony5]

I don't know, I read the thread titles as

A screaming bargain...or not..

But it is clear that you have made up your mind already before you even posted the thread. Never mind keep dreaming.

Good advice. ask to see the ORIGINAL title deed from the owner not from the land office, because laon sharks don't register their loans on the back of the title deed, they simply take possession of the title deed from the owner.

[flash=]http://youtu.be/5J11OHfHSfs

The copy of the deed I have was made by me from the original held by the owner. I have confirmed it is genuine and unencumbered at the land office. I have now blocked your posts at my end. You are taking up too much space without adding anything constructive. Thanks again for your input.

I can't care less how many times you block me, because it is clear that you're plain dumb.

I have tens of copies from original chanotes held by an owner, while the chanotes are nowhere in their possession, because they made the copies before they handed the original chanote to the loan shark.

And then I even leave out the copies that are offered to me by people, from who the owner doesn't even know they have a copy. Of course the copy will be verified to be identical to the one held at the land office, because they don't have a clue where the original will be at any given time.

You haven't answered a simple question. Do you really think that a plot of land with partially completed house, for sale at about 1/3th of the value of the bare land alone, is unknown by the hundreds of Thai business people with money in the area?

Ever wondered why it is still there, and you get it offered just a few days on the new job

I know there is one born every second, but you for sure get the 1st price.,

Edited September 4, 2015 by Anthony5

[Time Traveller]

OP, how many houses have you bought and sold in your life?

If the answer is zero. Then how many houses have you owned?

There is an almost endless number of things that can go wrong with a house or problems to deal with. So unless you have a professional inspection done, there is no way of knowing that house price is good value or not.

Otherwise, value it simply on land value alone and if the house is habitable then that's a bonus.

[NanLaew]

... Upon taking possession of the property I will pay a Thai contractor to build a 6 metre wall between the neighbouring house on the left and the unfinished house on the subject block. I will then build a two meter wall around the remaining perimeter of the block myself. ...

The maximum height wall you can legally build is 3 m. I would just make it 3 m all round.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

... Upon taking possession of the property I will pay a Thai contractor to build a 6 metre wall between the neighbouring house on the left and the unfinished house on the subject block. I will then build a two meter wall around the remaining perimeter of the block myself. ...

The maximum height wall you can legally build is 3 m. I would just make it 3 m all round.

Sorry, the 6 was a typo. I meant 3 metre.

Have checked again with the land office today and the girl can register a usufruct on the Nor Sor Sam Gor title.

Will visit the owner in the next few days. My initial offer will be 400K with her to pay the tx fee and any stamp or SBT.

[blackcab]

<p>

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

The company I work for is in the middle of upgrading about 30 plots from NS3 to chanote. It's a case of going to the land office, filling in the forms and paying the fee. From memory it was between 2 or 3 thousand baht per plot (each plot is about 1 rai). We were given a date for the surveyors to come and measure up. The appointment was about 2 months from the application. Since the surveying it's been another couple of months. In that time a pile of papers about half a meter thick has been signed (really about half a meter). The concrete posts are in the ground and we are waiting to collect the chanotes.

I'm sure all of this could have been made to go a lot faster, but the company is in no hurry at all.

[JHolmesJr]

So....when is the housewarming....and are we invited?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

So....when is the housewarming....and are we invited?

Currently negotiating price which will be somewhere between 400 and 425K.

I have checked with land office two times already no problem registering a life usufruct.

I also had a good deal of luck, I just stopped at a roadside hardware shop yesterday to check on the price of their water tanks, and the tiny little girl that served me has perfect English. Her family own the shop and thus she knows everything about building, plumbing and electrical products. I asked her if she can work as my intermediary when dealing with contractors and she agreed.

After spending the afternoon in the hardware shop I figure I can finish the fit out to a reasonable standard for circa 150K.

That would mean a total capital outlay of around 480K. Even if I rent to Thais I could get circa 3.5 to 5 K in rent so my return would be upwards of 8 percent.

It is only five minutes from a beautiful beach so there is also the prospect of doing a rental to a foreigner via air bnb or to a retired expat for 6 or 7K per month.

[blackcab]

So....when is the housewarming....and are we invited?

Currently negotiating price which will be somewhere between 400 and 425K.

I have checked with land office two times already no problem registering a life usufruct.

I also had a good deal of luck, I just stopped at a roadside hardware shop yesterday to check on the price of their water tanks, and the tiny little girl that served me has perfect English. Her family own the shop and thus she knows everything about building, plumbing and electrical products. I asked her if she can work as my intermediary when dealing with contractors and she agreed.

After spending the afternoon in the hardware shop I figure I can finish the fit out to a reasonable standard for circa 150K.

That would mean a total capital outlay of around 480K. Even if I rent to Thais I could get circa 3.5 to 5 K in rent so my return would be upwards of 8 percent.

It is only five minutes from a beautiful beach so there is also the prospect of doing a rental to a foreigner via air bnb or to a retired expat for 6 or 7K per month.

That's very good to hear. I wish you success and I hope this is a profitable and venture for you and your family.

[Anthony5]

So....when is the housewarming....and are we invited?

Currently negotiating price which will be somewhere between 400 and 425K.

I have checked with land office two times already no problem registering a life usufruct.

I also had a good deal of luck, I just stopped at a roadside hardware shop yesterday to check on the price of their water tanks, and the tiny little girl that served me has perfect English. Her family own the shop and thus she knows everything about building, plumbing and electrical products. I asked her if she can work as my intermediary when dealing with contractors and she agreed.

After spending the afternoon in the hardware shop I figure I can finish the fit out to a reasonable standard for circa 150K.

That would mean a total capital outlay of around 480K. Even if I rent to Thais I could get circa 3.5 to 5 K in rent so my return would be upwards of 8 percent.

It is only five minutes from a beautiful beach so there is also the prospect of doing a rental to a foreigner via air bnb or to a retired expat for 6 or 7K per month.

Even if I rent to Thais I could get circa 3.5 to 5 K in rent so my return would be upwards of 8 percent.

It is only five minutes from a beautiful beach so there is also the prospect of doing a rental to a foreigner via air bnb or to a retired expat for 6 or 7K per month.

Nice to see that now foreigners already start to over charge fellow foreigners.

3.5K for a Thai and 7K for a foreigner. Keep up the good work.

[steven100]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

[steven100]

it was 500k & your trying to negotiate between 400-425k ......

no wonder they won't let farangs own land here !!

[sendintheclowns]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

Whilst attempting to avoid annoying you with the obvious questions ( which long time retirees like my wife and I would ask you to consider) I Agree absolutely with this advice - get a lawyer, one NOT referred by your gf.

Even if you don't wish to spend the money on a lawyer ( who can just as easily cheat you); have you considered that you need an intermediary who is independent of your gf.?

The steps you yourself have outlined means that at some point in the process, you will have put up the money, with no security ( as the lease/usfruct cannot be signed and registered ahead of the purchase.).

The amount of money is so small, you say, that you will probably not heed this advice to hire a lawyer.

So, if your partner ( I really dislike the tern "gf") were to refuse to register the usfruct, do you have what lawyers call "remedy"?

There is a very nice lady living behing my house - came here after living in Germany for 12 years, has a daughter there. She and her second husband poured 5 million into the building lot ( she had bought it previously). They also bought a producing plantation. The plan was to retire. Whilst here, she met a very influential Thai. She was heartbroken, but left the one for the other. The ONLY reason she did this was to improve her family's lot. We westerners will never understand what motivates Thais to do what they do.

I wish you luck, with the usual proviso that it's all "up to you". Almost forgot, I think you implied the house is bordering the road side. Do check 2 things:

- is it a registered public road, as that will guarantee that you will never have access problems;

( a 2 meter access lane cost me 200,000 last year, when selling a property);

- make sure that the set back is adequate, should there be plans to place the road in the future.

[Scully]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

Exactly this, there are lawyers that state a nor sor 3 gor title deed is not recommended for foreigners. I'm no expert but there maybe something preventing the change of deed to a chanote, seek a conveyancer.

[beachproperty]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

Exactly this, there are lawyers that state a nor sor 3 gor title deed is not recommended for foreigners. I'm no expert but there maybe something preventing the change of deed to a chanote, seek a conveyancer.

To be more precise.....foreigners cannot buy land....Period! Therefore any form of title is NOT recomended to foreigners ....Execptions...foreigners can buy condos or own the building on the land.

As in everything .....Price reflects the risks....Personally... I think the price OP is paying covers the risk and is well worth it.

Apparently there are 4 catagories of land ownership

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thailand-title-deeds.php

Nor sor sam gor is the next best to a Chanote

With that said ....I also agree that it would be best to talk to a lawyer ....just to make sure everything is on the "up and up"

[RT85]

sorry.. i suppose prices are hell different from here on in bangkok sukhumvit..

but 500k for a HOUSE?

or was that land only?

sounds tempting!!! though.. depends on whether ur career/office will be around there...

i have colleagues who spend roughly 2 hours to .. and 2 hours from the office/home daily..

they have a nice home.. decent sized land.. but.. for me.. i think i want convenience over space??

personal choice.. i too am saving up long term to find a bigger place in town.

good luck!

[Scully]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

Exactly this, there are lawyers that state a nor sor 3 gor title deed is not recommended for foreigners. I'm no expert but there maybe something preventing the change of deed to a chanote, seek a conveyancer.

To be more precise.....foreigners cannot buy land....Period! Therefore any form of title is NOT recomended to foreigners ....Execptions...foreigners can buy condos or own the building on the land.

As in everything .....Price reflects the risks....Personally... I think the price OP is paying covers the risk and is well worth it.

Apparently there are 4 catagories of land ownership

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thailand-title-deeds.php

Nor sor sam gor is the next best to a Chanote

With that said ....I also agree that it would be best to talk to a lawyer ....just to make sure everything is on the "up and up"

Price doesn't reflect risk, if this is a bargain then it can be bought 100% risk free. It just needs a conveyancer to make sure it's legit.

What worries me is why a full chanote hasn't been petitioned to the land department already, has there been opposition to it?.

It maybe just it's never been requested, but it needs an expert eye. Good luck to the OP.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Ok calm down you guys.

I will not be hiring a lawyer.

I will not be hiring a conveyancer (never seen one here in Thailand anyway).

And the property faces a public road that already has street lights and electricity poles. There is a pole directly in front of the property, but, as I stated earlier the power is not yet connected to the house and there is no meter. The road also appears in google maps.

The land is Nor Sor Sam Gor because the owner's mother had a large piece of land that she subdivided giving titles to each of her children.

Thais mostly subdivide using NSSG because it is less expensive than subdividing with full Chanote.

I spent the morning with the owner and have agreed a sales price of 410K, the seller to pay all outgoings including the transfee, stamp duty, and any SBT if it is required.

The owner has borrowed 150K from a local land shark and he has the original of the title deed.

I have agreed to meet with the owner and the loan shark next week at the land office.

The owner will pay out the loan, loan shark will hand back the chanote and then it will be transferred to my girl and then a life usufruct registered in my name on the deed.

Today the owner showed me the registered plans for the house (stamped and signed by the tessaban).

She also showed me her new tabien ban which has her address recorded as the subject property.

The fact that the loan shark took the property as collateral for a loan of 150K is good. It reaffirms the land value to me.

From my own knowledge the house build up to know has cost somewhere in the range of 200 to 300K, including back fill of the block, and installation of the septic tank. And so very worst case scenario there is at least 350K value in the house and land and it is my guess that the land is worth a good deal more than 150K as the loan shark would have had his own LVR.

The only neighbour on the left of the block, and elderly woman has walked the boundary with me and agreed its location, which corresponds with the map on the NSSG title.

The only risk point I can see is where the money gets handed over to the loan shark. I may do up a contract of sale with the owner while at the land office stating that this amount going to the loan shark is the deposit on the sales price of 410K. Or I might just take my chances.

There you go doomsdayers...have at that lot...

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Ok.

Here is the update. I have been to the local land office. No encumbrances against the property, however the deed is not a full chanote, it is Nor Sor Sam Gor.

After some research on NSSG I have learnt that:

• It is possible to register a sale or lease and apply and obtain approval to build on this land.
• It is possible to have the land office survey the land and have the title upgraded to Chanote

And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

You have all these questions ... but you won't go and get proper legal advice from a lawyer to cover yourself.

You'll take forum advice instead. That's asking or trouble ....

seek proper advice.

Whilst attempting to avoid annoying you with the obvious questions ( which long time retirees like my wife and I would ask you to consider) I Agree absolutely with this advice - get a lawyer, one NOT referred by your gf.

Even if you don't wish to spend the money on a lawyer ( who can just as easily cheat you); have you considered that you need an intermediary who is independent of your gf.?

The steps you yourself have outlined means that at some point in the process, you will have put up the money, with no security ( as the lease/usfruct cannot be signed and registered ahead of the purchase.).

The amount of money is so small, you say, that you will probably not heed this advice to hire a lawyer.

So, if your partner ( I really dislike the tern "gf") were to refuse to register the usfruct, do you have what lawyers call "remedy"?

There is a very nice lady living behing my house - came here after living in Germany for 12 years, has a daughter there. She and her second husband poured 5 million into the building lot ( she had bought it previously). They also bought a producing plantation. The plan was to retire. Whilst here, she met a very influential Thai. She was heartbroken, but left the one for the other. The ONLY reason she did this was to improve her family's lot. We westerners will never understand what motivates Thais to do what they do.

I wish you luck, with the usual proviso that it's all "up to you". Almost forgot, I think you implied the house is bordering the road side. Do check 2 things:

- is it a registered public road, as that will guarantee that you will never have access problems;

( a 2 meter access lane cost me 200,000 last year, when selling a property);

- make sure that the set back is adequate, should there be plans to place the road in the future.

Thanks for your post. It actually contains a few very interesting points.

As I already posted above the property fronts a public road with street lights and electricity poles.

Yes my girl friend can refuse to sign the Usufruct. As I have already posted in other threads she was previously married to a Tom for a decade. Sinsot, big (village) wedding the full shabang. I have visited her parents house and seen the old wedding photos in the glass cabinet. I met my girl just after she had split up with the Tom and she did so because, like Thai men, the Tom began drinking too much, had giks and was abusive when drunk. My girl has therefore never had any kids and has a good deal of savings including 15 baht of gold (circa 300K) that is currently sitting in my safe. So if she does shirk me on the usufruct, it will be very difficult for her to get her gold back, unless over my dead body, which by the way is also a remedy to the Usufruct.

I have lived in Thailand full time now for about 6 years. I have some good Thai friends that I could use to put the title in the name of someone other than my girl. However, if my girl screws me over, which she could, my loss would be 410KTHB. Is that a risk. Yes. It is probably. NO. She's different.....LOL.

Perhaps I can do up a contract that the girlfriend has agreed to provide me with a life Usufruct over the property in exchange for 410KTHB.

You're suggestion regarding the intermediary is a very good and wise one. I have already arranged with a local girl that I know who's chinese Thai family hereabouts has a big building, hardware and machinery store. She has a business degree and speaks very good English. She is also not a prissy and has a good working knowledge of construction and house related matters as she works in the family business. She will be one of the parties in attendance at the land office to act as my interpreter. She has never met my girlfriend nor the seller of the property.

I should also state that my GF does not come from this province, and we recently moved here together. She, and I both, have had no previous connections with this area and so that is no opportunity for my GF to have previously colluded on anything.

There is risk in this transaction, and I stand to loose all of the 410KTHB. But there is also a good deal to gain in everything goes to plan. Speaking candidly, I am more concerned about the fact that my girl is bisexual than the fact that there is some risk she good do me wrong on this deal.

If you have any other thoughts please let me know.

[Don Mega]

Thais mostly subdivide using NSSG because it is less expensive than subdividing with full Chanote.

I spent the morning with the owner and have agreed a sales price of 410K, the seller to pay all outgoings including the transfee, stamp duty, and any SBT if it is required.

The owner has borrowed 150K from a local land shark and he has the original of the title deed.

I have agreed to meet with the owner and the loan shark next week at the land office.

The owner will pay out the loan, loan shark will hand back the chanote and then it will be transferred to my girl and then a life usufruct registered in my name on the deed.

So the property now has a chanote ?..... wow that was done quickly.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Thais mostly subdivide using NSSG because it is less expensive than subdividing with full Chanote.

I spent the morning with the owner and have agreed a sales price of 410K, the seller to pay all outgoings including the transfee, stamp duty, and any SBT if it is required.

The owner has borrowed 150K from a local land shark and he has the original of the title deed.

I have agreed to meet with the owner and the loan shark next week at the land office.

The owner will pay out the loan, loan shark will hand back the chanote and then it will be transferred to my girl and then a life usufruct registered in my name on the deed.

So the property now has a chanote ?..... wow that was done quickly.

Sorry typo...correctly spotted. The current title is nor sor sam gor with mapped boundaries. The thai selling refers to the title deed as the chanote. However my post should have read, loan shark will hand back the nor sor sam gor certificate original.

[sometimewoodworker]

<p>And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

We have upgraded NSSG to chanote cost is not much if you are willing to wait, in our area the list is 1 to 2 years you maybe able to speed this by a gift of "tea" in our area that tripled the survey cost but reduced the waiting time to a few weeks.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

<p>And so, now I have a few more questions:

• Has anyone every petitioned the land office to do a survey and to convert the title to a Chanote. What is involved with that process, how much does it cost, and how long does it take?
• Is it possible to register a usufruct upon a Nor Sor Sam Gor title deed?
• From what I have read the only con to NSSG is late squatters can take adverse possession after only 1 year as opposed to 10 years with Chanote.

We have upgraded NSSG to chanote cost is not much if you are willing to wait, in our area the list is 1 to 2 years you maybe able to speed this by a gift of "tea" in our area that tripled the survey cost but reduced the waiting time to a few weeks.

Not really fussed about upgrading to Chanote. I can register a usufruct against the NSSG, the local land office has already confirmed that two time for me.

The land still has the number pegs in it from when it was pegged out during the subdivision a bit over a year ago.

Mother had a lot of land, cut it up by way of NSSG subdivision (because cheaper than chanote) and then gave each of the kids their bit.

The own of the subject block, a daughter, borrowed 150K from a loan shark and used that money along with all of her saving to build a little two bedroom rendered brick house with steel roof trusses and tiled roof. She is now broke and the interest on the loan is adding up. I did some rough calculation on what she will net from the deal and it would appear very little other than getting the monkey off her back.

[donx]

Bulldozer Dawn, I noticed that in one of your earlier posts you said that the owner had the original title document which you copied and took to the land office. Now you are saying that the original title document is in the possession of a loan shark. I'm curious how you discovered that what the owner possessed wasn't the original title document? Or were you aware from the beginning that the owner's documentation was a copy?

[rocketboybkk]

1). If it's such a bargain why hasn't it sold already?

2). If it's such a bargain why did the colleague buy it?

3). Why would a work colleague offer your gf such a bargain after only 1 week of knowing her?

You have the answer already. Don't be another sucker.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Bulldozer Dawn, I noticed that in one of your earlier posts you said that the owner had the original title document which you copied and took to the land office. Now you are saying that the original title document is in the possession of a loan shark. I'm curious how you discovered that what the owner possessed wasn't the original title document? Or were you aware from the beginning that the owner's documentation was a copy?

thanks for you post.

I was well aware it was a copy.

I have checked it with the land office and all is well.

Because the property was recently subdivided the stamped pegs are still in place.

I have surveyed the property myself with both geo coordinates and using a tape measure.

The boundaries and size of the block are exactly as stated on the map provided on title deed.

The block is about square but it has a slight trapezoid shape some each boundary is a different length.

The owner has a brand new tabien ban (housebook) I have taken a photo of that and it coincides with details from the land office.

The owner has a full set of plans for the house stamped and signed by the tessaban. I have been through those and the map in the plan coincides with my own survey measurements of the property.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

1). If it's such a bargain why hasn't it sold already?

2). If it's such a bargain why did the colleague buy it?

3). Why would a work colleague offer your gf such a bargain after only 1 week of knowing her?

You have the answer already. Don't be another sucker.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1. The neighbours, like most in thailand, are in debt.
2. The colleague and her husband are a little wealthier than those in the rest of the mooban however they have just bought two new cars on hire purchase to start a rental business. Things are very slow this season and they are struggling to make the repayments on the cars. They have a house on their property and have completed a bungalow that they want to rent to foreigners in high season next to their house. The bungalow is built to a good standard but it is about 85 percent complete.
3. There are personal reasons for them wanting the current owner out, and having someone with money buying the plot. Firstly, like all thai to thai sales the colleague will no doubt seek a commission from the neighbour for finding a buyer. Second, the owner is a youngish women who has a stereotypical lazy Thai boyfriend who is no doubt sponging off her to live in her house for free. They have a small porch at the front of the property which is the venue for many parties judging from the plastic buckets full of many empty change bottles. As I posted earlier the property sits atop a small rise and so this porch looks down directly on the colleagues property. The colleague and her husband are middle aged thai middle class with two young teenage girls. Having a farang neighbour who has the money to complete the house and who does not have a meth party everyother night would be a vast inprovement for the colleague and her family. It would also improve the value of their property as well as increasingly the likelihood that a farang would rent their bungalow (if the renter knows a farang already lives across the street).

Any more doomsday questions?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

The loan shark lent 150K against the property as collateral, and I imagice he probably works on an LVR.

I know a good deal about building and have price thai materials and the house has at least 200KTHB spent on it so far.

So the very worst case scenario is that there is 300 to 350K value in the deal.

My agreed price is 410K with her to pay all outgoings at the land office.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Today I am drafting a loan agreement in English.

I will then have a two thais translate it to Thai for me and I will compare the translations. The chinese Thai girl I spoke about above is one of the people I will get to translate.

I will get my girl to sign the loan agreement and have it witnessed by the chinese Thai girl.

The agreement will basically state that I have loaned my girl 410K in exchange for her granting a life usufruct. The debt is discharged once my name is stamped on the back of the deed. It will also have a few clauses in it about agreeing to sell the property in the future if I wish, however those clauses are more like MOU as they are not enforcible at the end of the day.

I have told my girl that the plan is the buy the property finish the house and then advertise it to find a buyer. She will get 50% of any profit after my original capital and any additional expenses are taken out.

The house needs, some plumbing, electrical, water tanks, tiling and painting to complete it. My rough estimates are about 100K to complete to a reasonable standard. And so I would double that to allow for the unknown and arrive at 200K.

And so the totall project would have a capital outlay of around 600K for a two bedroom rendered brick house on a small square block fronting a public road that is five minutes from the beach. I should be able to find a buyer circa 1 million for a 400K profit, or rent to a foreigner to achieve a 10 percent return on my money.