NCPO explains why it rejects UDD’s public discussion on draft charter

[mikemac]

In case didn't get it, a counter coup is performed by an army regiment, not by a political opposition group.

It is known since the 2006 coup that the army is split into 2 camps.

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

[jayboy]

In case didn't get it, a counter coup is performed by an army regiment, not by a political opposition group.

It is known since the 2006 coup that the army is split into 2 camps.

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

All purely hypothetical as there's no evidence of any such counter coup from the opposition.Without going into detail there has been some talk of a split within the coup supporting unelected elites - but that is fairly insubstantial and Prem's recently stated position makes such a split even more unlikely.

So all in the realm of conjecture - which is fine.That's partly what this forum is for.

But it's revealing in your post you postulated "if the reds revolted".The phrase sums up why that perception of the Thai crisis is so terribly flawed.If the issue was just angry redshirts the crisis could be fairly easily contained.

The elaborate charade of Suthep's protests,the intimidation of voters, the turncoat Democrats, the military coup, the rigged assembly and its stooges, the appalling Charter etc etc etc were necessary because the opposition is huge - some very committed and some of course not so committed, but still on the 'wrong' side.

Certainly it includes radical redshirts but also the rural majority esp in North and North East,huge numbers of the urban working class and lower middle class, increasingly Democrat Party members/leadership and disillusioned middle class PDRC people (ie who disliked Thaksin but now see Junta is worse), intellectuals, students, media people etc.

The incompetence and brutality of the government is building the opposition all the time.When a general election is held it's going to be difficult to "fix" it even with a rigged and partisan constitution.

No doubt some will continue to claim opposition is limited to redshirts paid by Thaksin.I suspect those with some measure of awareness understand their ridiculous ideas are looking increasingly hollow.

[rubl]

They may not be elected by some former police Lieutenant-Colonel, but they are legal.

They may not be elected by some former police Lieutenant-Colonel, but they are legal.

Ah, nooo, they're not. Or did you miss the point that they had an ILLEGAL COUP, then installed themselves into power, then "elected" (if you want to call it that) a new PM who, by the way, was the same man who lead the coup. There is absolutely nothing legal about the present government in any way, shape or form.

The current government is a legal government, endorsed, sworn in, etc., etc. You disliking them doesn't make them illegal.

Now of course if you want to tell me that recently Western democracies offered help to this 'allegedly' illegal government thereby breaking their own laws, that's up to you.

And what/who made an illegal government legal? The Thai people (the repository of all power according to the last military constitution)? The abbot of the local wat? A friend of the PM? His wife? A magic spell?

H.M. the King as you should well know, just like with previous governments, even the ones we might not like.

[rubl]

In case didn't get it, a counter coup is performed by an army regiment, not by a political opposition group.

It is known since the 2006 coup that the army is split into 2 camps.

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

All purely hypothetical as there's no evidence of any such counter coup from the opposition.Without going into detail there has been some talk of a split within the coup supporting unelected elites - but that is fairly insubstantial and Prem's recently stated position makes such a split even more unlikely.

So all in the realm of conjecture - which is fine.That's partly what this forum is for.

But it's revealing in your post you postulated "if the reds revolted".The phrase sums up why that perception of the Thai crisis is so terribly flawed.If the issue was just angry redshirts the crisis could be fairly easily contained.

The elaborate charade of Suthep's protests,the intimidation of voters, the turncoat Democrats, the military coup, the rigged assembly and its stooges, the appalling Charter etc etc etc were necessary because the opposition is huge - some very committed and some of course not so committed, but still on the 'wrong' side.

Certainly it includes radical redshirts but also the rural majority esp in North and North East,huge numbers of the urban working class and lower middle class, increasingly Democrat Party members/leadership and disillusioned middle class PDRC people (ie who disliked Thaksin but now see Junta is worse), intellectuals, students, media people etc.

The incompetence and brutality of the government is building the opposition all the time.When a general election is held it's going to be difficult to "fix" it even with a rigged and partisan constitution.

No doubt some will continue to claim opposition is limited to redshirts paid by Thaksin.I suspect those with some measure of awareness understand their ridiculous ideas are looking increasingly hollow.

With grassroot organisation drawn into the political games and power struggle of the high and mighty (including their local version) it is to be expected that brutal and incompetent governments continue.

The red-shirts are just a usefull tool which anger is being directed by others. The yellow-shirt not much better. Like the whites and the reds in Russia 100 years ago. Old elite replaced by new elite and the common man lost out.

BTW "their ridiculous ideas are looking increasingly hollow."

you mean we should start to talk about the Shinawatra Dynasty rather than just good old Thaksin?

Edited September 6, 2015 by rubl

[rubl]

With grassroot organisation drawn into the political games and power struggle of the high and mighty (including their local version) it is to be expected that brutal and incompetent governments continue.

The red-shirts are just a usefull tool which anger is being directed by others. The yellow-shirt not much better. Like the whites and the reds in Russia 100 years ago. Old elite replaced by new elite and the common man lost out.

BTW "their ridiculous ideas are looking increasingly hollow."

you mean we should start to talk about the Shinawatra Dynasty rather than just good old Thaksin?

You need to brush up your Russian history given the fundamental errors contained above.I recommend Orlando Figes' "A People's Tragedy" to start with.

That might encourage you to read more on Thai history and politics which would give your posts a little more substance.PM me for a reading list if you like.I suggest you start with the basics and we can take take things from there.

Don't bother, I'm still digging into the Zimmerwald Conference.

BTW I spoke about a peoples tragedy, that of common people being used by all political parties, elites of all flavours, etc., etc. Mind you if you want to tell me about all the good things Lenin, Stalin c.s. did to make their country a workers paradise which required permission to leave, go ahead.

[lovelomsak]

Thailand was a great place many years ago.....now its gone. The Pheu Thai, The Democrats, The UDD, The PRDC, The Army, The Aristocrats have destroyed this great place......its getting bad day by day and I fear what will become of it in the near future. Did anybody bothered to ask Tourists, Expats etc what they really liked about the old thailand and how to keep that going instead of making their own decisions? Many long term expats are leaving and many real decent tourists are going elsewhere.....the only people coming to thailand these days are the criminals, the poor tourists and those seeking employment or a cheap lifestyle here.

The reason Thailand was what it was in the past was because the military ran the country no democracy. people were emotionally and mentally stunted,They were kept poor and uneducated and uninformed. Sheltered from the rest of the world. Simple peasants told what to do,what to think. Trained to not think for themselves.

The world opened up and wanted cheap labour. Thailand gave the world cheap labour. But with that came outside influence. One influence was democracy.. Sounded good but in practice wasnot good for the Thailands powerful and rich. So Thailand is back to military rule and getting it in writing this time so there will be no doubt.

Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades Thailand as whole will never be the simple country it was.

It will become more divided and will be strong arm governed for decades.

[mikemac]

Thailand was a great place many years ago.....now its gone. The Pheu Thai, The Democrats, The UDD, The PRDC, The Army, The Aristocrats have destroyed this great place......its getting bad day by day and I fear what will become of it in the near future. Did anybody bothered to ask Tourists, Expats etc what they really liked about the old thailand and how to keep that going instead of making their own decisions? Many long term expats are leaving and many real decent tourists are going elsewhere.....the only people coming to thailand these days are the criminals, the poor tourists and those seeking employment or a cheap lifestyle here.

The reason Thailand was what it was in the past was because the military ran the country no democracy. people were emotionally and mentally stunted,Temotionally and mentally stunted. Sheltered from the rest of the world. Simple peasants told what to do,what to think. Trained to not think for themselves.

The world opened up and wanted cheap labour. Thailand gave the world cheap labour. But with that came outside influence. One influence was democracy.. Sounded good but in practice wasnot good for the Thailands powerful and rich. So Thailand is back to military rule and getting it in writing this time so there will be no doubt.

Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades Thailand as whole will never be the simple country it was.

It will become more divided and will be strong arm governed for decades.

There are a few things you said in your comment that I don't understand. You say that because the Military ran the country "in the past" there was no Democracy and the people were "emotionally and mentally stunted" etc etc. but just how long was the Military in control compared to the time there was an elected Government in control ? How long did the coups last ? Are you saying the Military ruled the country more often than civilian government ?

And if the Shins were so good for the poor, why are still so many poor people after all those years of Shin rule, either under Thaksin or Yingluck ?

"Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades"...................Is this the result of Shin rule ? I mean if a middle class has "evolved" it must have been the poor who have stepped up, or was it the rich stepping down ?

So many questions !

[smutcakes]

Thailand was a great place many years ago.....now its gone. The Pheu Thai, The Democrats, The UDD, The PRDC, The Army, The Aristocrats have destroyed this great place......its getting bad day by day and I fear what will become of it in the near future. Did anybody bothered to ask Tourists, Expats etc what they really liked about the old thailand and how to keep that going instead of making their own decisions? Many long term expats are leaving and many real decent tourists are going elsewhere.....the only people coming to thailand these days are the criminals, the poor tourists and those seeking employment or a cheap lifestyle here.

The reason Thailand was what it was in the past was because the military ran the country no democracy. people were emotionally and mentally stunted,Temotionally and mentally stunted. Sheltered from the rest of the world. Simple peasants told what to do,what to think. Trained to not think for themselves.

The world opened up and wanted cheap labour. Thailand gave the world cheap labour. But with that came outside influence. One influence was democracy.. Sounded good but in practice wasnot good for the Thailands powerful and rich. So Thailand is back to military rule and getting it in writing this time so there will be no doubt.

Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades Thailand as whole will never be the simple country it was.

It will become more divided and will be strong arm governed for decades.

There are a few things you said in your comment that I don't understand. You say that because the Military ran the country "in the past" there was no Democracy and the people were "emotionally and mentally stunted" etc etc. but just how long was the Military in control compared to the time there was an elected Government in control ? How long did the coups last ? Are you saying the Military ruled the country more often than civilian government ?

And if the Shins were so good for the poor, why are still so many poor people after all those years of Shin rule, either under Thaksin or Yingluck ?

"Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades"...................Is this the result of Shin rule ? I mean if a middle class has "evolved" it must have been the poor who have stepped up, or was it the rich stepping down ?

So many questions !

I think if you calculated the time since 1932 that there has been military or civilian Govt's i expect that it would be military more than civilian or at least damn close.

[MZurf]

Thailand was a great place many years ago.....now its gone. The Pheu Thai, The Democrats, The UDD, The PRDC, The Army, The Aristocrats have destroyed this great place......its getting bad day by day and I fear what will become of it in the near future. Did anybody bothered to ask Tourists, Expats etc what they really liked about the old thailand and how to keep that going instead of making their own decisions? Many long term expats are leaving and many real decent tourists are going elsewhere.....the only people coming to thailand these days are the criminals, the poor tourists and those seeking employment or a cheap lifestyle here.

The reason Thailand was what it was in the past was because the military ran the country no democracy. people were emotionally and mentally stunted,Temotionally and mentally stunted. Sheltered from the rest of the world. Simple peasants told what to do,what to think. Trained to not think for themselves.

The world opened up and wanted cheap labour. Thailand gave the world cheap labour. But with that came outside influence. One influence was democracy.. Sounded good but in practice wasnot good for the Thailands powerful and rich. So Thailand is back to military rule and getting it in writing this time so there will be no doubt.

Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades Thailand as whole will never be the simple country it was.

It will become more divided and will be strong arm governed for decades.

There are a few things you said in your comment that I don't understand. You say that because the Military ran the country "in the past" there was no Democracy and the people were "emotionally and mentally stunted" etc etc. but just how long was the Military in control compared to the time there was an elected Government in control ? How long did the coups last ? Are you saying the Military ruled the country more often than civilian government ?

And if the Shins were so good for the poor, why are still so many poor people after all those years of Shin rule, either under Thaksin or Yingluck ?

"Because of the middle class that evolved in the last few decades"...................Is this the result of Shin rule ? I mean if a middle class has "evolved" it must have been the poor who have stepped up, or was it the rich stepping down ?

So many questions !

"So many questions !"

Don't despair. The answers are out there, they're just harder to come by when wearing rose tinted glasses.

[MZurf]

In case didn't get it, a counter coup is performed by an army regiment, not by a political opposition group.

It is known since the 2006 coup that the army is split into 2 camps.

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

Every time the military takes power it's back to square one. Every time a group illegally takes power from and elected government it's back to square one (or even further back).

This is a fundamental truth that seems lost on the Thaksin haters.

[rubl]

In case didn't get it, a counter coup is performed by an army regiment, not by a political opposition group.

It is known since the 2006 coup that the army is split into 2 camps.

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

Every time the military takes power it's back to square one. Every time a group illegally takes power from and elected government it's back to square one (or even further back).

This is a fundamental truth that seems lost on the Thaksin haters.

True, true. Thaksin c.s. must be really getting tired crawling back from square one.

Many elected governments and still no amnesty for him. One can but feel soory.

In the mean time we're back to SQ1 regarding a constitution it would seem. Already interesting discussions which version to start with now.

[Jon Wetherall]

A counter-coup would lead to serious headache here on TVF. When is a coup a good coup, when is a coup a bad coup ?

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

Every time the military takes power it's back to square one. Every time a group illegally takes power from and elected government it's back to square one (or even further back).

This is a fundamental truth that seems lost on the Thaksin haters.

True, true. Thaksin c.s. must be really getting tired crawling back from square one.

Many elected governments and still no amnesty for him. One can but feel soory.

In the mean time we're back to SQ1 regarding a constitution it would seem. Already interesting discussions which version to start with now.

I think you'll find he won't repeat the mistakes he made in the past. One way or the other, he'll be back. It isn't in his nature to admit defeat.

Om that day, Thailand can start moving forward again, though it has lost a *huge* amount of ground. While the rest of ASEAN moves forward, Thailand is driving by looking in the rear-view mirror in a car the rich and powerful have stolen 3 of the wheels from..

Edited September 6, 2015 by Jon Wetherall

[rubl]

If the reds revolted ( ) and took over the government then that would be a good coup, in some eyes. And we would be back to square one.

Would certainly make it interesting, both on TVF and on the streets.

Every time the military takes power it's back to square one. Every time a group illegally takes power from and elected government it's back to square one (or even further back).

This is a fundamental truth that seems lost on the Thaksin haters.

True, true. Thaksin c.s. must be really getting tired crawling back from square one.

Many elected governments and still no amnesty for him. One can but feel soory.

In the mean time we're back to SQ1 regarding a constitution it would seem. Already interesting discussions which version to start with now.

I think you'll find he won't repeat the mistakes he made in the past. One way or the other, he'll be back. It isn't in his nature to admit defeat.

Om that day, Thailand can start moving forward again, though it has lost a *huge* amount of ground. While the rest of ASEAN moves forward, Thailand is driving by looking in the rear-view mirror in a car the rich and powerful have stolen 3 of the wheels from..

So the moment a criminal fugitive can come back Thailand can move forward ? At least said criminal has his own aeroplane, like all Amply Rich people.

[Jon Wetherall]

Every time the military takes power it's back to square one. Every time a group illegally takes power from and elected government it's back to square one (or even further back).

This is a fundamental truth that seems lost on the Thaksin haters.

True, true. Thaksin c.s. must be really getting tired crawling back from square one.

Many elected governments and still no amnesty for him. One can but feel soory.

In the mean time we're back to SQ1 regarding a constitution it would seem. Already interesting discussions which version to start with now.

I think you'll find he won't repeat the mistakes he made in the past. One way or the other, he'll be back. It isn't in his nature to admit defeat.

Om that day, Thailand can start moving forward again, though it has lost a *huge* amount of ground. While the rest of ASEAN moves forward, Thailand is driving by looking in the rear-view mirror in a car the rich and powerful have stolen 3 of the wheels from..

So the moment a criminal fugitive can come back Thailand can move forward ? At least said criminal has his own aeroplane, like all Amply Rich people.

Well, a criminal according to some very dodgy gyrations by the beholden Thai court. Not the same as "real criminal". He doubtless was that too, but in that he is no different to say... Prayuth' or your pick of the Thai glitterati. No better, no worse, all from the same bucket.

And yes, on that day Thailand could begin to move forward. In fact, I believe that Thailand would be a lot better off now had the Army and Prem been neutered a long time ago and had Thaksin remained PM. I know you think that is heresy but there you go. Perhaps I take a wider view and listen less to people I shouldn't be listening to at all.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Jon Wetherall

[rubl]

True, true. Thaksin c.s. must be really getting tired crawling back from square one.

Many elected governments and still no amnesty for him. One can but feel soory.

In the mean time we're back to SQ1 regarding a constitution it would seem. Already interesting discussions which version to start with now.

I think you'll find he won't repeat the mistakes he made in the past. One way or the other, he'll be back. It isn't in his nature to admit defeat.

Om that day, Thailand can start moving forward again, though it has lost a *huge* amount of ground. While the rest of ASEAN moves forward, Thailand is driving by looking in the rear-view mirror in a car the rich and powerful have stolen 3 of the wheels from..

So the moment a criminal fugitive can come back Thailand can move forward ? At least said criminal has his own aeroplane, like all Amply Rich people.

Well, a criminal according to some very dodgy gyrations by the beholden Thai court. Not the same as "real criminal". He doubtless was that too, but in that he is no different to say... Prayuth' or your pick of the Thai glitterati. No better, no worse, all from the same bucket.

And yes, on that day Thailand could begin to move forward. In fact, I believe that Thailand would be a lot better off now had the Army and Prem been neutered a long time ago and had Thaksin remained PM. I know you think that is heresy but there you go. Perhaps I take a wider view and listen less to people I shouldn't be listening to at all.

Of course, of course, not trying to defend the poor chap, but that conviction of 'conflict of interest' while everyone knows he's too rich to be corrupt or need to be corrupt and while others do the same, etc., etc., etc.

BTW some real criminal cases await his return to be able to commence. Like the case he as PM ordered some government organisation to borrow Myanmar 2 billion Baht so they could buy satellite usage from one of his companies.

Again of course you do not need to listen. Better be careful, the truth can be bad for your health, give you heartburn, headache, even jailtime.

[MaiChai]

I keep thinking about what UDD and Red Shirts stood for before and I would not want to go back to that. Better the current devil than the previous devils?

Go on, start rabbiting on about democracy etal, we had that before, right?