Thailand ranks among countries with highest road deaths

[hugh2121]

UK's rank is not surprising to me:....They are driving on the wrong side of the street

Clearly you do not know the reason behind driving on the left. it is historical and dates back to knights in armour riding horseback. Oops, some countries don't have that much history.

Goodness! No humor, these Poms....Seemed to be pissed off?

Hmmm, history again. Who were the POHMS (Prisoners of His Majesty)?

[hugh2121]

UK's rank is not surprising to me:....They are driving on the wrong side of the street

Clearly you do not know the reason behind driving on the left. it is historical and dates back to knights in armour riding horseback. Oops, some countries don't have that much history.

Mr. Smart, probably you have an explanation why most of the countries driving on the right side? If noy take this: Maybe those with their splendid isolation were still riding horses whearas in other countries people were driving cars?? And changing gears we do with our right hand...And this is probably an island made problem. Changing gears with the left hand is too difficult for islanders.... Therefore too many road accidents. (actually this was prpbably the start for automatic transmissions)

I have absolutely no idea why countries decided to drive on the right except maybe to copy America which never had knights on horseback. You see, knights approaching each other would always pass on the left, so a sword could be drawn and used with the right hand if necessary. That probably continued with horse drawn carriages and eventually with motor vehicles. Quite logical really. As for changing gears, most people are right handed so it makes perfect sense to keep the controlling right hand on the steering wheel and remove the left hand. Probably the reason why UK has so few traffic related deaths. Incidentally, do you have figures for the number of countries driving on each side of the road? There are very many who drive on the left, including Japan and Indonesia.

[cumgranosalum]

UK's rank is not surprising to me:....They are driving on the wrong side of the street

Rather facile comment as UK has some of the safest roads in the world and they drive on the samne side as Thailand..... Along with about 40% of all the roads in the world.

[MartinL]

Incidentally, do you have figures for the number of countries driving on each side of the road? There are very many who drive on the left, including Japan and Indonesia.

See Post 87 -- Second thoughts >>>> http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/driving-on-the-left/

[alocacoc]

UK witnesses ‘dramatic’ jump in road fatalities after slashing traffic cop jobs - report

Feb 2015

https://www.rt.com/uk/228307-uk-road-fatalities-report/

[impulse]

Let me put it in plain text, just for you, countries like the UK have nowhere near the percentage of Motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, are you still with me ?

Now, lets say they did have the same percentage of motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, is it beyond you comprehension to assume the UK's road fatality rate would be higher than it is now ?

Also, if Thailand had the same motorcycle ratio as The UK, can't you see that Thailand's road fatality rates would be less than they are now, still with me ?

I'm simply pointing out something obvious, should be obvious to ThaiVisa's Thai Bashing Fraternity too.

Is that simple enough for you to understand Mancub ?

I would prefer a comparison of Thailand with other SE Asian countries.

For example, Cambodia has a much lower rate of road deaths than Thailand, but a similar mix of vehicles.

No it doesn't, go do a little research before putting out nonsense like that.

Cambodia 17.6 per 100,000 (Source: IRTAD, National Road Safety Committee, 2012)

Cambodia 17.2 per 100,000 (WHO, Interactive road safety map)

Thailand 38.1 per 100,000 (Source: WHO Interactive road safety map)

But I knew this before I made my post.

And then there is

Vietnam 24.7

Malaysia 25.0

Myanmar 15

PDR Lao 20.4

Thailand has 206 registered vehicles per 1000 population. Cambodia had 21. (Okay, there's a few years' difference in the numbers, but I seriously doubt Cambodia has caught up with their GDP per capita)

Comparing traffic fatalities per capita is meaningless if they all walk... That's why the preferred metric is deaths per 1 billion passenger km.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

[cumgranosalum]

Incidentally, do you have figures for the number of countries driving on each side of the road? There are very many who drive on the left, including Japan and Indonesia.

See Post 87 -- Second thoughts >>>> http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/driving-on-the-left/

there are some quirks concerning driving on either right or left.....many automobiles in the US were originally built RHD (look at some Laurel and Hardy films)

also if it wasn't for Burma, you could drive from the Iran / Pakistan border to Tasmania on the Left hand side of the roads with detours to Nepal, Bhutan and New Zealand......there is a strong body of opinion that Burma should change back now while it still can.....there are several good reasons for this.

[cumgranosalum]

Let me put it in plain text, just for you, countries like the UK have nowhere near the percentage of Motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, are you still with me ?

Now, lets say they did have the same percentage of motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, is it beyond you comprehension to assume the UK's road fatality rate would be higher than it is now ?

Also, if Thailand had the same motorcycle ratio as The UK, can't you see that Thailand's road fatality rates would be less than they are now, still with me ?

I'm simply pointing out something obvious, should be obvious to ThaiVisa's Thai Bashing Fraternity too.

Is that simple enough for you to understand Mancub ?

I would prefer a comparison of Thailand with other SE Asian countries.

For example, Cambodia has a much lower rate of road deaths than Thailand, but a similar mix of vehicles.

No it doesn't, go do a little research before putting out nonsense like that.

Cambodia 17.6 per 100,000 (Source: IRTAD, National Road Safety Committee, 2012)

Cambodia 17.2 per 100,000 (WHO, Interactive road safety map)

Thailand 38.1 per 100,000 (Source: WHO Interactive road safety map)

But I knew this before I made my post.

And then there is

Vietnam 24.7

Malaysia 25.0

Myanmar 15

PDR Lao 20.4

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

"but a similar mix of vehicles." - Cambodia's make up of vehicles is totally different from Thailand as are the roads, vehicle ownership and the development of infrastructure in general - a close look would suggest that in reality - given the number of vehicles, Cambodia's road safety is considerably MORE dangerous than Thailand.

I have railed many times about stats and what meaning people attach to them...they are NOT facts, they are numbers, and to have any significance they need to be interpreted intelligently.

Edited September 10, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

UK witnesses ‘dramatic’ jump in road fatalities after slashing traffic cop jobs - report

Feb 2015

https://www.rt.com/uk/228307-uk-road-fatalities-report/

Another stat I find interesting is that UK and Thailand have a similar number of "collisions"

" - this in turn would put pay to any idea hat Thai people are inherently worse drivers, but does suggest that the other "Es" are as or more important when it comes to deaths.

Edited September 10, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[simonuk]

Thailand ranks among countries with highest road deaths

BANGKOK, 9 September 2015 (NNT) – The World Health Organization (WHO) has declared Thailand one of the top five countries with the highest road fatalities in the world.

A survey has been conducted by the WHO on countries around the world in regard to the rate of traffic-related deaths.

As a result, the country found to have the highest death rate was Libya, with a record of 48.4 per 100,000 people, followed by Iraq at 40.5.

Thailand was placed at number three, with a fatality rate of 38.1 per 100,000 people. The fourth and fifth rankings went to South Africa and the United Kingdom, respectively.

On the other hand, the WHO also compiled a list of countries with the highest road safety.

Topping the list was the Maldives, with a road fatality rate of only 1.9 per 100,000 people, followed by Norway at the second place, Denmark and Sweden at the third, and Switzerland at the fifth.

-- NNT 2015-09-09

UK ?? As in Great Britain being number 5? What nonsense.

Utter tosh.

I work at one of the busiest fire stations in the UK. We specialise in road traffic collisions amongst other things. I assure everyone that road deaths in the UK have decreased massively over the last 15 years that I've been dealing with them. (Not as a result of my contribution I'd like to add , i cant take credit for that lol...)

The UK has far safer roads than France Italy Spain and Portugal for starters....

[cumgranosalum]

BTW - the rating for the UK reported in the article is nonsense; the UK has been constantly in the top 5 for years.....there is an increase in deaths at present but it won't have sunk that far....I suspect it is a typo or just a stupid reporter

[NCC1701A]

Mad Max, Thailand coming in 2016. No computer effects. No stunt drivers. The ultimate battle for survival.

[cumgranosalum]

Mad Max, Thailand coming in 2016. No computer effects. No stunt drivers. The ultimate battle for survival.

Get the feeling that that reflects your own state of mind more than the actual driiving conditions in Thailand.

[cumgranosalum]

UK witnesses ‘dramatic’ jump in road fatalities after slashing traffic cop jobs - report

Feb 2015

https://www.rt.com/uk/228307-uk-road-fatalities-report/

Another thing this shows is that if you relax any ONE of the 5 Es, you are likely to see an increase in incidents - it is only with a combination of ALL the 5 Es that road safety can be held in check.....drivers - whether Thai or English are equally capable of being stupid or making mistakes.

[CarolJadzia]

UK witnesses ‘dramatic’ jump in road fatalities after slashing traffic cop jobs - report

Feb 2015

https://www.rt.com/uk/228307-uk-road-fatalities-report/

Another stat I find interesting is that UK and Thailand have a similar number of "collisions"

" - this in turn would put pay to any idea hat Thai people are inherently worse drivers, but does suggest that the other "Es" are as or more important when it comes to deaths.

The first stats are absolute BS and just Russian scaremongery.

If you want I can give you all the data from the UK, it is all open for public analysis and we keep a very close eye on it to help improve UK road safety.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359016/indicator-table.csv/preview

Where did you get the information that there is a similar amount of collisions as I would suggest that is totally wrong as well.

I have seen 10 times the number of accidents during my time in Thailand than I have seen on the roads of the UK which compares straight with the ten times the rate of deaths in Thailand. I have also saved someones life and helped save others after UK road traffic accidents, in Thailand the norm is to take photo's or just drive on by.

In the UK people do not generally go the wrong way down duel carriageways, or overload their vehicles, they don't have U-turn gaps on major roads or badly thought out motorcycle lanes that put riders in more danger not less.

But in the UK they do stop at traffic lights, know to give way to the right, have stepped testing for HGV's and PSV (coaches), and Tachographs to measure that large vehicles stay within the law, know how to use roundabouts, Basic motorcycle training for everyone who wants to ride a motorcycle and multiple driver and rider testing right up to police advanced level - the best in the world, my son has will have had to pass eight motorcycle tests before he is allowed to ride an unlimited CC motorcycle, the most basic of which has a higher standard than the only current Thai test.

You are right that the Thai's are not inherently worse drivers but with the complete lack of rider and driver training and lack of proper policing. Along with economic growth putting thousands more cars and 'big bikes' on the road and the belief in Spirits and reincarnation, all makes Thailand a very dangerous place to be a road user.

[Michael8511]

The traffic in Thailand is awful I think every one agree about that, specially with all the motor bikes. When it comes to the drivers I personally think the farangs are high up there as dangerous drivers of Both cars and motorbikes specially here in Jomtien and Pattaya. Not all bad driving are to be blamed at the Thais. If the statistics shows UK up there it's only to accept it no reason for deny.

[BuaBS]

UK's rank is not surprising to me:....They are driving on the wrong side of the street

Ergonomicly , I think the Brits got that one right. Now if they could only follow the rest of the modern world and think decimal : instead of miles, feet, inches, oz, pounds ,gallons,....metre, liter , gram .

At least we can spell (metre, litre etc.).

Different language dude , and was too lazy to check, sorry.

[CarolJadzia]

The traffic in Thailand is awful I think every one agree about that, specially with all the motor bikes. When it comes to the drivers I personally think the farangs are high up there as dangerous drivers of Both cars and motorbikes specially here in Jomtien and Pattaya. Not all bad driving are to be blamed at the Thais. If the statistics shows UK up there it's only to accept it no reason for deny.

But the statistics do not show that the UK is in the top five. It is one of the bottom five.

How much evidence of this would you like?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain

Yes, sensational headlines aside, the UK accident figures are going up due to a reduction in policing. But only by a fraction and nothing even close to the situation in Thailand. The UK is still one of the lowest.

The number of death increased 2.1 per cent to 1,807 in the year ending September 2014.

The UK was one of eight of the 32 member states of the International Transport Forum to see an increase.

But IRTAD, the road safety group of the ITF said the UK and Sweden have the safest roads out of member states from Argentina to Switzerland.

The UK and Sweden average fewer than three road deaths per 100,000 inhabitants compared to about 12 per 100,000 in Chile and Argentina.

This makes the UK safer than countries including the Netherlands, France, Germany, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

The UK and Sweden also have the safest roads in terms of the number of fatalities per billion vehicle kilometres driven - about three compared to 17 in Korea.

But IRTAD said one reason for the general global drop in road casualties was the economic downturn which had a "substantial impact".

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/580347/Road-deaths-UK-research

[phoenixdoglover]

No it doesn't, go do a little research before putting out nonsense like that.

Let me put it in plain text, just for you, countries like the UK have nowhere near the percentage of Motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, are you still with me ?

Now, lets say they did have the same percentage of motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, is it beyond you comprehension to assume the UK's road fatality rate would be higher than it is now ?

Also, if Thailand had the same motorcycle ratio as The UK, can't you see that Thailand's road fatality rates would be less than they are now, still with me ?

I'm simply pointing out something obvious, should be obvious to ThaiVisa's Thai Bashing Fraternity too.

Is that simple enough for you to understand Mancub ?

I would prefer a comparison of Thailand with other SE Asian countries.

For example, Cambodia has a much lower rate of road deaths than Thailand, but a similar mix of vehicles.

Cambodia 17.6 per 100,000 (Source: IRTAD, National Road Safety Committee, 2012)

Cambodia 17.2 per 100,000 (WHO, Interactive road safety map)

Thailand 38.1 per 100,000 (Source: WHO Interactive road safety map)

But I knew this before I made my post.

And then there is

Vietnam 24.7

Malaysia 25.0

Myanmar 15

PDR Lao 20.4

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

"but a similar mix of vehicles." - Cambodia's make up of vehicles is totally different from Thailand as are the roads, vehicle ownership and the development of infrastructure in general - a close look would suggest that in reality - given the number of vehicles, Cambodia's road safety is considerably MORE dangerous than Thailand.

I have railed many times about stats and what meaning people attach to them...they are NOT facts, they are numbers, and to have any significance they need to be interpreted intelligently.

Of course.

Thailand is unique in Asia.

So, following your drift....

Even if you change the comparison cases to countries with similar vehicle ownership rates, Thailand comes out poorly. On the basis of road deaths per vehicles owned....Thailand ranks about 90th in the world. It is quite clear that Thailand has managed to develop, and put a lot of vehicles on the road, but they missed the part about minimizing the carnage when you do that.

Now, as far as understanding statistics, I understand the science, the math, and the interpretive methods very well. You are quite wrong to suggest that statistics are not facts. In some cases, statistics are quite clearly facts. What is the population of your village? If counted intelligently, the resulting number will be a statistic and a fact. In other cases, statistics are estimates, based typically on sampling techniques (for example, opinion polls). Well crafted estimates are presented along with a calculation of their imprecision (variance, confidence limits, etc.).

In the case of road death statistics, the numbers reported have been examined by better analysts than you or I in multiple international agencies, well aware of the limitations (and hence, why some countries are excluded from some reports). Everyone knows the road death values are imprecise for some countries, but they are certainly good enough to instigate policy changes.

But I have to ask you a question: What international comparison of road deaths have you seen that places Thailand in a good light?

[tbthailand]

I sometimes think to myself what the HELL am I doing when I drive my motorcycle around in Bangkok. I'm literally playing road death roulette. Guess I'm pretty on the ball and I HAVE to drive but.... it is scary.

bangkok is a safe compared to the countryside.

[cumgranosalum]

No it doesn't, go do a little research before putting out nonsense like that.

Let me put it in plain text, just for you, countries like the UK have nowhere near the percentage of Motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, are you still with me ?

Now, lets say they did have the same percentage of motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, is it beyond you comprehension to assume the UK's road fatality rate would be higher than it is now ?

Also, if Thailand had the same motorcycle ratio as The UK, can't you see that Thailand's road fatality rates would be less than they are now, still with me ?

I'm simply pointing out something obvious, should be obvious to ThaiVisa's Thai Bashing Fraternity too.

Is that simple enough for you to understand Mancub ?

I would prefer a comparison of Thailand with other SE Asian countries.

For example, Cambodia has a much lower rate of road deaths than Thailand, but a similar mix of vehicles.

Cambodia 17.6 per 100,000 (Source: IRTAD, National Road Safety Committee, 2012)

Cambodia 17.2 per 100,000 (WHO, Interactive road safety map)

Thailand 38.1 per 100,000 (Source: WHO Interactive road safety map)

But I knew this before I made my post.

And then there is

Vietnam 24.7

Malaysia 25.0

Myanmar 15

PDR Lao 20.4

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

"but a similar mix of vehicles." - Cambodia's make up of vehicles is totally different from Thailand as are the roads, vehicle ownership and the development of infrastructure in general - a close look would suggest that in reality - given the number of vehicles, Cambodia's road safety is considerably MORE dangerous than Thailand.

I have railed many times about stats and what meaning people attach to them...they are NOT facts, they are numbers, and to have any significance they need to be interpreted intelligently.

Of course.

Thailand is unique in Asia.

So, following your drift....

Even if you change the comparison cases to countries with similar vehicle ownership rates, Thailand comes out poorly. On the basis of road deaths per vehicles owned....Thailand ranks about 90th in the world. It is quite clear that Thailand has managed to develop, and put a lot of vehicles on the road, but they missed the part about minimizing the carnage when you do that.

Now, as far as understanding statistics, I understand the science, the math, and the interpretive methods very well. You are quite wrong to suggest that statistics are not facts. In some cases, statistics are quite clearly facts. What is the population of your village? If counted intelligently, the resulting number will be a statistic and a fact. In other cases, statistics are estimates, based typically on sampling techniques (for example, opinion polls). Well crafted estimates are presented along with a calculation of their imprecision (variance, confidence limits, etc.).

In the case of road death statistics, the numbers reported have been examined by better analysts than you or I in multiple international agencies, well aware of the limitations (and hence, why some countries are excluded from some reports). Everyone knows the road death values are imprecise for some countries, but they are certainly good enough to instigate policy changes.

But I have to ask you a question: What international comparison of road deaths have you seen that places Thailand in a good light?

QED

[cumgranosalum]

No it doesn't, go do a little research before putting out nonsense like that.

Let me put it in plain text, just for you, countries like the UK have nowhere near the percentage of Motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, are you still with me ?

Now, lets say they did have the same percentage of motorcycles as, say Thailand for instance, is it beyond you comprehension to assume the UK's road fatality rate would be higher than it is now ?

Also, if Thailand had the same motorcycle ratio as The UK, can't you see that Thailand's road fatality rates would be less than they are now, still with me ?

I'm simply pointing out something obvious, should be obvious to ThaiVisa's Thai Bashing Fraternity too.

Is that simple enough for you to understand Mancub ?

I would prefer a comparison of Thailand with other SE Asian countries.

For example, Cambodia has a much lower rate of road deaths than Thailand, but a similar mix of vehicles.

Cambodia 17.6 per 100,000 (Source: IRTAD, National Road Safety Committee, 2012)

Cambodia 17.2 per 100,000 (WHO, Interactive road safety map)

Thailand 38.1 per 100,000 (Source: WHO Interactive road safety map)

But I knew this before I made my post.

And then there is

Vietnam 24.7

Malaysia 25.0

Myanmar 15

PDR Lao 20.4

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

"but a similar mix of vehicles." - Cambodia's make up of vehicles is totally different from Thailand as are the roads, vehicle ownership and the development of infrastructure in general - a close look would suggest that in reality - given the number of vehicles, Cambodia's road safety is considerably MORE dangerous than Thailand.

I have railed many times about stats and what meaning people attach to them...they are NOT facts, they are numbers, and to have any significance they need to be interpreted intelligently.

Of course.

Thailand is unique in Asia.

So, following your drift....

Even if you change the comparison cases to countries with similar vehicle ownership rates, Thailand comes out poorly. On the basis of road deaths per vehicles owned....Thailand ranks about 90th in the world. It is quite clear that Thailand has managed to develop, and put a lot of vehicles on the road, but they missed the part about minimizing the carnage when you do that.

Now, as far as understanding statistics, I understand the science, the math, and the interpretive methods very well. You are quite wrong to suggest that statistics are not facts. In some cases, statistics are quite clearly facts. What is the population of your village? If counted intelligently, the resulting number will be a statistic and a fact. In other cases, statistics are estimates, based typically on sampling techniques (for example, opinion polls). Well crafted estimates are presented along with a calculation of their imprecision (variance, confidence limits, etc.).

In the case of road death statistics, the numbers reported have been examined by better analysts than you or I in multiple international agencies, well aware of the limitations (and hence, why some countries are excluded from some reports). Everyone knows the road death values are imprecise for some countries, but they are certainly good enough to instigate policy changes.

But I have to ask you a question: What international comparison of road deaths have you seen that places Thailand in a good light?

As with your previous posts, you are not following my drift. I'm sorry I have already put my case if you can't understand it - then that's your loss, I'm not going to re-explain myself again and again to those rely on a combination of anecdote and naive confirmation bias for their arguments about road safety.

[hugh2121]

Incidentally, do you have figures for the number of countries driving on each side of the road? There are very many who drive on the left, including Japan and Indonesia.

See Post 87 -- Second thoughts >>>> http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/driving-on-the-left/

there are some quirks concerning driving on either right or left.....many automobiles in the US were originally built RHD (look at some Laurel and Hardy films)

also if it wasn't for Burma, you could drive from the Iran / Pakistan border to Tasmania on the Left hand side of the roads with detours to Nepal, Bhutan and New Zealand......there is a strong body of opinion that Burma should change back now while it still can.....there are several good reasons for this.

www.todayifoundout.com

This keep-left rule was so common that, in 1300 AD, Pope Boniface VIII decreed that all pilgrims headed to Rome from wherever they were coming from should abide by the keep-left rule of the road along their journey. This then held across most of the Western World until the late 1700s.

What ended up happening to force the switch in the 18^th century were teamsters in the United States, who would drive large wagons with a team of horses, as the name implies. These wagons tended to dominate the road and force everybody else to abide by the rule of the road they were using. Very importantly, in many of those old, large American wagons, they did not include a seat on the wagon for the driver. Rather, the driver would typically sit on the rear left most horse, when the driver was right handed. This allowed them to easily drive a whole team of horses with a lash in their right hand.

This then forced the issue of having oncoming traffic on your left as the drivers would want to make sure any part of their team or wagon didn’t collide with oncoming traffic.

So, drive on the right if you don't have a seat?

[maidee]

any statistics in rage killings, you know, lose your temper or face & go murder some people with the gun or knife you just happend to have with you

[cumgranosalum]

Incidentally, do you have figures for the number of countries driving on each side of the road? There are very many who drive on the left, including Japan and Indonesia.

See Post 87 -- Second thoughts >>>> http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/driving-on-the-left/

there are some quirks concerning driving on either right or left.....many automobiles in the US were originally built RHD (look at some Laurel and Hardy films)

also if it wasn't for Burma, you could drive from the Iran / Pakistan border to Tasmania on the Left hand side of the roads with detours to Nepal, Bhutan and New Zealand......there is a strong body of opinion that Burma should change back now while it still can.....there are several good reasons for this.

www.todayifoundout.com

This keep-left rule was so common that, in 1300 AD, Pope Boniface VIII decreed that all pilgrims headed to Rome from wherever they were coming from should abide by the keep-left rule of the road along their journey. This then held across most of the Western World until the late 1700s.

What ended up happening to force the switch in the 18^th century were teamsters in the United States, who would drive large wagons with a team of horses, as the name implies. These wagons tended to dominate the road and force everybody else to abide by the rule of the road they were using. Very importantly, in many of those old, large American wagons, they did not include a seat on the wagon for the driver. Rather, the driver would typically sit on the rear left most horse, when the driver was right handed. This allowed them to easily drive a whole team of horses with a lash in their right hand.

This then forced the issue of having oncoming traffic on your left as the drivers would want to make sure any part of their team or wagon didn’t collide with oncoming traffic.

So, drive on the right if you don't have a seat?

My take on it is that the French and their teamsters were in fact the real start for this and this was then reinforced after the resolution but the fact that the French aristocracy would insist on having that side of the road - so the change was largely political in the end.

The "States" as you call them were British colonies for most of the 18th century and unifying (federal) laws (or even roads) in the USA were not common until well after the French revolution - as I said many original US autos were in fact RHD too.

Thailand's reasons are various - many people site the fact that many royals had RHD cars etc in the early 20th C, but I think it is really the influence of Japan that finally organised the Thai roads to drive on the left - as a result of trade and finally occupation in WW2.

one still hopes Burma will see the liught and change back to DoL too.

Edited September 11, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[phoenixdoglover]

As with your previous posts, you are not following my drift. I'm sorry I have already put my case if you can't understand it - then that's your loss,...

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

.

(various other demonstrations of superior knowledge, accompanied by put-downs)

Yes, now run along. Your attempt to bully me with your superior knowledge of statistical nuances didn't work. And I understand you're too busy with more important posts on TVF to educate me any further about the fallibility of statistics and the perils of cross-country comparisons.

By the way, there have been no "anecdotes" in my posts. You must be thinking of some other mental midget. Sigh.

Edited September 11, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[cumgranosalum]

As with your previous posts, you are not following my drift. I'm sorry I have already put my case if you can't understand it - then that's your loss,...

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

.

(various other demonstrations of superior knowledge, accompanied by put-downs)

Yes, now run along. Your attempt to bully me with your superior knowledge of statistical nuances didn't work. And I understand you're too busy with more important posts on TVF to educate me any further about the fallibility of statistics and the perils of cross-country comparisons.

By the way, there have been no "anecdotes" in my posts. You must be thinking of some other mental midget. Sigh.

I think rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, If you are going to come to a discussion I think it behoves you to at least get your information and arguments in order before you postIf you post contentious or clearly erroneous arguments then it is quite likely that on any forum you will receive a counter argument - if you perceive these as "put-downs" then again I'd think a bit more before posting.....

PS - are you seriously suggesting that someone with "superior knowledge" shouldn't disagree with you?

Edited September 11, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[phoenixdoglover]

As with your previous posts, you are not following my drift. I'm sorry I have already put my case if you can't understand it - then that's your loss,...

phoenix - you are a classic example of someone who doesn't know how to take statistics...

.

(various other demonstrations of superior knowledge, accompanied by put-downs)

Yes, now run along. Your attempt to bully me with your superior knowledge of statistical nuances didn't work. And I understand you're too busy with more important posts on TVF to educate me any further about the fallibility of statistics and the perils of cross-country comparisons.

By the way, there have been no "anecdotes" in my posts. You must be thinking of some other mental midget. Sigh.

I think rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, If you are going to come to a discussion I think it behoves you to at least get your information and arguments in order before you postIf you post contentious or clearly erroneous arguments then it is quite likely that on any forum you will receive a counter argument - if you perceive these as "put-downs" then again I'd think a bit more before posting.....

PS - are you seriously suggesting that someone with "superior knowledge" shouldn't disagree with you?

In this "argument", I have posted statistics from international agencies regarding road deaths in Thailand and nearby countries. I drew a comparison with Cambodia, which you rejected without citing any sources for your opinion. I then provided additional information about how Thailand compares to other countries based on road deaths per vehicle, which bolstered my position (an obvious one), that Thailand is doing poorly.

You must have a reading comprehension problem, or simply an out-sized ego.

By the way, you entirely missed the opportunity to rebut my Cambodia comparison, based on evidence rather than a ridiculous ad hominem attack regarding improper use of statistics.

[CarolJadzia]

PS if you don't know what the 5 Es are then I'd suggest you aren't in possession of even the most basic facts of road safety and would be unable to comment on the subject.

Yes I know what the 5 E's are. Western standards that have tried to be imposed on Thailand with very little success. Good luck if you think standard western ways are going to change the status quo. How far back do you want to go in history since that was first tried?

If things are to change in Thailand it needs a new ground-up approach. Core attitudes need to change. This can be done but not by current means.

I have heard recently how the 'Safe System' approach it to be tried in Thailand. This involves softer road furniture like wire rope central barriers for roads, the same sort that there has been a back lash against by bikers across Europe where they are now being replaced with Concrete barriers instead. What use is changing a barrier when Thailand has U-turns on major duel carriageways and many road users who go the wrong way against the flow?

Something else recently tried in Thailand is motorcycle lanes. Lets separate motorcycles from other road users and give them their own lane. Great, only the problem is this puts riders into more danger as they are less likely to be seen by emerging vehicles. We know this through better understanding of how the human brain works. If you want evidence of this have a look at the 'No Surprise' resources page under 'Vision' http://nosurprise.org.uk/research-papers-and-resources-library/ and of course the other problem is so many Thai's think they can turn out onto a major road without looking increasing the danger further.

But of course people will continue to try - http://www.aseancap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AASF-001-2014-05-Country-Report-THAILAND.pdf

This glossy presentation lists the current issues but totally misses addressing them as it's just stuck in the old ways. Unless you actually think that putting all Thai Riders into motorised safe cells and letting them loose on Thai roads is better than having them on Motorcycles? That thought terrifies me. Yes the drivers will have a better chance of survival when they have an accident, but what about pedestrians and other road users?

How do you 'educate' someone who believes in reincarnation and Spirits that wearing a helmet will save his life when he thinks his path is already chosen?

Then of course there is Enforcement. The Thai Police force is not equipped or trained to deal with traffic enforcement in the same way as the Western World is. Neither will it be so anytime soon. When not loosing face, hyarachy, self control and non confrontation take a higher standing than doing the right thing then there needs to be core changes to the way things are done. Just saying 'better enforcement' will not change anything.

I have watched drunk drivers leave bars after an afternoons drinking, get on their bikes and ride home. when I question the practice politely I am told "they always do that" It is 'not right' to challenge them. There are no Police working overnight. One particular friend apparently wakes up often in the morning to find himself lying in a ditch somewhere on the route home.

If things are to change it is going to take a new approach where everyone looks to their own actions. Thailand is 95% Buddhist. Buddha teaches about self. That is where change has to start. Our own actions.

Rather than keep saying "the Thais are bad drivers out to kill us" think about how as the Thai system is currently so bad, why are there not more deaths than there currently are? What can we learn from them? Rather than telling someone they are doing it wrong lets work with them to find a better way.

No Surprise / No Accident

[cumgranosalum]

PS if you don't know what the 5 Es are then I'd suggest you aren't in possession of even the most basic facts of road safety and would be unable to comment on the subject.

Yes I know what the 5 E's are. Western standards that have tried to be imposed on Thailand with very little success. Good luck if you think standard western ways are going to change the status quo. How far back do you want to go in history since that was first tried?

If things are to change in Thailand it needs a new ground-up approach. Core attitudes need to change. This can be done but not by current means.

I have heard recently how the 'Safe System' approach it to be tried in Thailand. This involves softer road furniture like wire rope central barriers for roads, the same sort that there has been a back lash against by bikers across Europe where they are now being replaced with Concrete barriers instead. What use is changing a barrier when Thailand has U-turns on major duel carriageways and many road users who go the wrong way against the flow?

Something else recently tried in Thailand is motorcycle lanes. Lets separate motorcycles from other road users and give them their own lane. Great, only the problem is this puts riders into more danger as they are less likely to be seen by emerging vehicles. We know this through better understanding of how the human brain works. If you want evidence of this have a look at the 'No Surprise' resources page under 'Vision' http://nosurprise.org.uk/research-papers-and-resources-library/ and of course the other problem is so many Thai's think they can turn out onto a major road without looking increasing the danger further.

But of course people will continue to try - http://www.aseancap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AASF-001-2014-05-Country-Report-THAILAND.pdf

This glossy presentation lists the current issues but totally misses addressing them as it's just stuck in the old ways. Unless you actually think that putting all Thai Riders into motorised safe cells and letting them loose on Thai roads is better than having them on Motorcycles? That thought terrifies me. Yes the drivers will have a better chance of survival when they have an accident, but what about pedestrians and other road users?

How do you 'educate' someone who believes in reincarnation and Spirits that wearing a helmet will save his life when he thinks his path is already chosen?

Then of course there is Enforcement. The Thai Police force is not equipped or trained to deal with traffic enforcement in the same way as the Western World is. Neither will it be so anytime soon. When not loosing face, hyarachy, self control and non confrontation take a higher standing than doing the right thing then there needs to be core changes to the way things are done. Just saying 'better enforcement' will not change anything.

I have watched drunk drivers leave bars after an afternoons drinking, get on their bikes and ride home. when I question the practice politely I am told "they always do that" It is 'not right' to challenge them. There are no Police working overnight. One particular friend apparently wakes up often in the morning to find himself lying in a ditch somewhere on the route home.

If things are to change it is going to take a new approach where everyone looks to their own actions. Thailand is 95% Buddhist. Buddha teaches about self. That is where change has to start. Our own actions.

Rather than keep saying "the Thais are bad drivers out to kill us" think about how as the Thai system is currently so bad, why are there not more deaths than there currently are? What can we learn from them? Rather than telling someone they are doing it wrong lets work with them to find a better way.

No Surprise / No Accident

Good I'm glad you do - but I wasn't referring to any particular individual when I posted that...........however my proposals are nothing to do with "western standards" - if Ii told you the world was round would that be a "western standard too?

the fact is that people use expressions like that and "culture' when they simply have no reasoned argument. your information about "soft road furniture in Europe is incorrect..... a lot has to do with the purpose and design of ther items - if a car collides with something hard the occupants are more likely to die.

i have said many times that without TOTAL implementation of the 5 Es road safety cannot be addressed...this is underlined by your examples of half-baked ideas and imitations that come from ill informed and ignorant Thai officials - that is classic Thai; to release some dictum in isolation without any real research or consultation....e.g. when some prat decided to paint zig-zags on pedestrian crossings in Bangkok.

the rest of your argument is more or less exactly what I have been saying. -

Edited September 11, 2015 by cumgranosalum