Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[loonodingle]

Probably about time we went into recess hey mods... next date is the 22nd September.

Some people need to jump of the merry go round.

Per my calculation K. Loon the silence lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes.

I know some people have no respect.

[fab99]

RIP, I won't forget what happened to these two young promising innocent persons.

My view on the island, but also the whole country, has profoundly changed because of this event and the following shameful investigation,

I have a nice life here with a perfect family far for all the corrupted places, so I won't move but I sure prevent every body I can to go to the worst places in Thailand KT being at the top.

I explain everything I can to my friends before they come here on holidays, there sure is a very big difference between the view people have of Thailand (but it is changing fast...) and the reality.

[PaPiPuPePo]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Photos show that Hannah's body still had the skirt and top in the morning when surrounded by the BiB. She was clearly wearing them whilst she was attacked. They were still on here when she was put in the plastic tarp or body bag.

So, how could the RTP or pathologist possibly not include them in the forensic examination unless directed by someone(s) NOT to do so and to get rid of them.

This is a shocking omission from such a crime scene!

Disgusting, like the rest of the RTP's handling of this case.

Sorry but can someone point me to the source for the clothes having gone missing--where it was announced or a media source for it. Quicker than google maybe certainly less hassle (for me at least ). And this thread is *only* 38 pages so far but still, searching through it (even with certain folks on ignore thus cutting out whole pages of clutter) for a single item is not an attractive option. TIA.

there are a couple of tweets from Any Hall basically saying defense lawyers dont know where Hannah's skirt and top have gone, and another tweet saying they was not in evidence list

OK thanks. Goddamn, what farce, it would be a colossal joke if the stakes weren't so high.

[fab99]

And I agree that we shouldn't discuss the case today.

Please no back and forth on some details of the investigation we won't agree on anyway, that would make the thread more peaceful and it would be a mark of respect.

I don't really like the idea of closing the thread, but keep it alive with nice messages and pictures of the two young people that were deprived of a future that day, exactly one year ago.

[PaPiPuPePo]

RIP Hannah and David.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

I decided to give this a "like" as it had me rolling on the floor in stitches and god knows I needed a laugh today, hahahahaha.

' The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution? '

or the RTP who in court denied having meeting with pathologist about the blond hair untill the defense provided documents to counter this , and then he refused to disclose the content of the meeting

That is the Biggest Red Herring I have ever seen pulled by the Media on this case so far.

Let me ask you something. How many emails did you receive in the month of February. If you are like most people you wouldn't be sure unless you checked first. February is only about 6 months ago.

But now you ask a question of exactly what happened a year ago, to a High Ranking Police Officer, how many times he talked to this Pathologist about this particular case. I stress this case as I am sure they deal with many different cases together, which also deals with many different people over that year. But when he is not sure and gives the wrong date, the whole band wagon jumped on him for being a liar and withholding evidence.

What bloody new evidence? This same Pathologist took the stand in court a month earlier and said everything he knew about the case, or could have been asked then by the Defense Team. But did they ask him what his conversation was with this High Ranking Police Officer then? No! Of course not!

But instead they pull out the old smoke and mirrors trick and ask some High Ranking Police Officer what happened in a case a year ago, and what did they discuss, knowing full well he would not remember these exact dates, just like anyone else here. So since the Defense was really not interested in that discussion they still got these exact dates before hand to make him look like he was lying, when he just forgot.

The same old smoke and mirrors when they asked an Investigative Police Officer on the Island what happened to the DNA, when it is not even kept their but instead in Labs on the Mainland, knowing full well ahead of time he would not know. As it was not his business to know that. Thus came the confusion on lost, used up, not available DNA, that some are still talking about today.

Then you get the media piping up and saying "he refused to disclose the contents of this meeting", like he is lying and hiding something. What a crock! If the man can't remember the last time he talk to the Pathologist how logical is it he can remember what they talked about? Especially when this same Pathologist took the stand before him and said everything he knew about the case, or at least could have been questioned about it.

Well I am able to see through those smoke and mirrors and I hope the ones that count can also. As far as I am concerned and if it were up to me to decide, I would gather up all evidence, including clothing, hair, hoe, shoes, cigarette butts, Hannah's DNA, the accused DNA, under the watchful eye of the Prosecution and Defense, and fire all this off to Singapore, (which also has the Death Penalty) for Independent DNA Testing. If the DNA has been tampered with and that can be proved, then they are set free. If it can't be proved and the results match, then too bloody bad. They pay the price.

I would like to see proof in this case beyond reasonable doubt that someone is either guilty or innocent. Pulling up some bribe that some high ranking police officer may have taken doesn't do that for me as you can find this in any other country to. Getting off on some Technicality because someone crossed out a DNA Document, forgot to sign it, or changed the date, as he didn't know better, also does prove that to me. It may prove they made need to upgrade their DNA Testing Procedures, as the Good Doctor had pointed out, but it does not prove innocence or guilt.

But the Cards will fall where they may. The Accused appear to have a very good Defense Team, so nobody should be able to fault that, if things go bad for them.

[Rykbanlor]

RIP Hannah and David.

We will see it through.

[StealthEnergiser]

Rest in Peace Hannah & David

[stephenterry]

The absence of Hannah clothes is absolute proof that the rtp fabricated this case. Deliberate removal of key evidence is a criminal offence. I'm amazed the defence hasn't thrown the book at the Rtp.

Stephen Get Real M8.. This goes to the very top. Anyone pone with a book heading their way just ducks.

I agree, and I'm not naive. However if the defence had made big waves in court and that was reported in international media, it might name and shame Thailand's version of justice. The one way to rattle the top is to expose this to all and sunder.

Oops, just seen the due respects posts. I'll add mine too, RIP Hannah & David. We won't forget you.

Edited September 15, 2015 by stephenterry

[thailandchilli]

Only one post from me today, I really do not want the thread closed as we can see from yesterday there is still current news coming out from credible sources and we should all keep up to date on this.

Hannah & David, you deserved so much more, God is closer to you now than at any other point. The place you are now is far better than the place you left.

For the families of the victims, your the ones that will be suffering most today and I send you my thoughts of support with all my heart.

[stephenterry]

Only one post from me today, I really do not want the thread closed as we can see from yesterday there is still current news coming out from credible sources and we should all keep up to date on this.

Hannah & David, you deserved so much more, God is closer to you now than at any other point. The place you are now is far better than the place you left.

For the families of the victims, your the ones that will be suffering most today and I send you my thoughts of support with all my heart.

To the families of Hannah and David. I hope this song brings some comfort.

[HUH]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/643609590156791808

R.I.P.

[Fat Haggis]

Yes that is odd AleG. But do you want to know what I find even odder than that? It is where did all those people go, and the Media, who were screaming for months for a "Fair and Transparent Trial'? Here is what I mean.

On one hand you have a High Ranking Police Officer who made an Official Request to the UK Police (I gather) to help identify the said David Miller's Mobile Phone. Had this phone not belonged to David then this would help the Defense. Had it belonged to David then of course it would have helped the Prosecution. But the reply they got was they were unable to supply official documentation on this as this involved a murder trail which carries the death penalty. Although a Witness testified he had verbal conformation on this subject.

On the other hand and for months we have heard that the Defense has damning evidence from the UK that will discredit the RTP DNA that was recently given to them from a Forensic Expert in the UK, who preformed an autopsy on Hannah. Hum??? Who this said person allegedly passed on these official documents and this information onto the Defense Team only.

But do we know what this evidence is? No!No! No! It is so secret that nobody in the court room knew what it was as they refused to disclose this. Not even the Prosecution so they would have a chance to debate it or the validity of those documents. Instead they passed it under the table for the judges to view alone.

All I know for sure is if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was the Prosecution who did that, and not the Defense, this whole blog would be buzzing with people complaining and calling Prosecution and Police every name under the sun. But now it is so quiet here and nobody even mentions that, except me right now.

Maybe that isn't so odd after all.

You told us you are not a lawyer, nor a judge, and it is apparent why....

In criminal trials, the prosecution goes first. They provide the court with the evidence being presented as their facts. The defence gets to go second. They get to dispute those "facts" and are there to pick apart the investigation.

Why would the defence have to provide their method of disputing the allegations leveled by the prosecution? That would be stupid of them.

In Canada (where you have purported to live in another post) it is called "disclosure". It came from a court case called R . v. Stinchcombe (you are on your own to search this one, I gave you the last search, which still by the way you haven't answered on) where it makes the prosecution provide ALL of the evidence they are going to introduce to the court in advance to the defence, in order that they be able to prepare to make a "full answer" for the accused. As you see, there was no such disclosure made to the defence team prior to the trial, as there is no apparent requirement to do so in Thailand.

Once again you have failed to educate yourself.

The problem you seem to have is to grasp that the crime was committed in Thailand and thus under Thailand Law, and not the law of your home land.

The Prosecution does not have to provide any information to the Defense in advance here. So perhaps you should educate yourself on Thai Law and not the law of your land. This would also help you to understand the justice system better here as well.

Oh all of a sudden you ARE educated in Thai Law, how many years have you lived here and been practicing it to be able to ridicule others ? What the flying F do you know about the Thai Justice system? If there was ever such a condescending comment made .. your post clearly takes #1 position.

[Fat Haggis]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

I decided to give this a "like" as it had me rolling on the floor in stitches and god knows I needed a laugh today, hahahahaha.

' The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution? '

or the RTP who in court denied having meeting with pathologist about the blond hair untill the defense provided documents to counter this , and then he refused to disclose the content of the meeting

That is the Biggest Red Herring I have ever seen pulled by the Media on this case so far.

Let me ask you something. How many emails did you receive in the month of February. If you are like most people you wouldn't be sure unless you checked first. February is only about 6 months ago.

But now you ask a question of exactly what happened a year ago, to a High Ranking Police Officer, how many times he talked to this Pathologist about this particular case. I stress this case as I am sure they deal with many different cases together, which also deals with many different people over that year. But when he is not sure and gives the wrong date, the whole band wagon jumped on him for being a liar and withholding evidence.

What bloody new evidence? This same Pathologist took the stand in court a month earlier and said everything he knew about the case, or could have been asked then by the Defense Team. But did they ask him what his conversation was with this High Ranking Police Officer then? No! Of course not!

But instead they pull out the old smoke and mirrors trick and ask some High Ranking Police Officer what happened in a case a year ago, and what did they discuss, knowing full well he would not remember these exact dates, just like anyone else here. So since the Defense was really not interested in that discussion they still got these exact dates before hand to make him look like he was lying, when he just forgot.

The same old smoke and mirrors when they asked an Investigative Police Officer on the Island what happened to the DNA, when it is not even kept their but instead in Labs on the Mainland, knowing full well ahead of time he would not know. As it was not his business to know that. Thus came the confusion on lost, used up, not available DNA, that some are still talking about today.

Then you get the media piping up and saying "he refused to disclose the contents of this meeting", like he is lying and hiding something. What a crock! If the man can't remember the last time he talk to the Pathologist how logical is it he can remember what they talked about? Especially when this same Pathologist took the stand before him and said everything he knew about the case, or at least could have been questioned about it.

Well I am able to see through those smoke and mirrors and I hope the ones that count can also. As far as I am concerned and if it were up to me to decide, I would gather up all evidence, including clothing, hair, hoe, shoes, cigarette butts, Hannah's DNA, the accused DNA, under the watchful eye of the Prosecution and Defense, and fire all this off to Singapore, (which also has the Death Penalty) for Independent DNA Testing. If the DNA has been tampered with and that can be proved, then they are set free. If it can't be proved and the results match, then too bloody bad. They pay the price.

I would like to see proof in this case beyond reasonable doubt that someone is either guilty or innocent. Pulling up some bribe that some high ranking police officer may have taken doesn't do that for me as you can find this in any other country to. Getting off on some Technicality because someone crossed out a DNA Document, forgot to sign it, or changed the date, as he didn't know better, also does prove that to me. It may prove they made need to upgrade their DNA Testing Procedures, as the Good Doctor had pointed out, but it does not prove innocence or guilt.

But the Cards will fall where they may. The Accused appear to have a very good Defense Team, so nobody should be able to fault that, if things go bad for them.

Coppers tend to take notes, meetings tend to have minutes taken, the biggest case on the Island would stick in most coppers minds regardless of their rank and status, it's not something you forget!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know about you, but any meeting I go to, I always take notes, it's called professionalism, it's also important to recall what was said, sometimes I take a Dictaphone with me to meetings too, so that when accusations start about info not received, can be backed up.

This has always boiled down to the RTP in their lack of professionalism, their lack of being able to handle the crime scene, their lack of being able to keep their mouths shut till they have enough evidence to make an arrest, make the arrest, and THEN start giving media interviews.

But you're such an expert now it seems with regards to Thai Law, and how supper efficient the RTP have been. At the risk of a ban, I'll say what others wont. You're a joke, your refusal to look past the chain of errors from the beginning of this investigation up till the presentation UNDER OATH is why people here hold most of your posts in contempt.

[JLCrab]

I can feel you standing there

But I don't see you anywhere

I will wait until it all goes round

With you in sight, the lost are found

[fab99]

I can feel you standing there

But I don't see you anywhere

I will wait until it all goes round

With you in sight, the lost are found

Thank you JLCrab for not talking about the case and this sign of respect, Goldbuggy and those replying to him, could we just take a break today and not talk about the case and just about Hannah and David please...

I think it is the least that can be done, take a break for a day, just show respect and support their friend and family in this painful time.

[boomerangutang]

to Hannah, David, Hannah's little sister, their families and everyone else......

[webfact]

Hannah Witheridge's Family's 'Torturous Pain'
Two men remain on trial in Thailand over the deaths of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller as their families describe their loss.

LONDON: -- The family of a British tourist murdered on a beach in Thailand say they will never get over her death.

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and her friend David Miller, 24, were killed on the island of Koh Tao exactly one year ago.

In a statement her family said: "People try to reassure us that time will help to ease the pain, they are wrong.

"Every day gets harder and the more time that passes increases the pain and intensifies the longing. It is torturous.

"Losing someone you love is always difficult but losing someone so senselessly and unexpectedly, at such an early stage of their life, makes for an indescribably impossible time."

Mr Miller's family also released a statement.

Full story: http://news.sky.com/story/1552613/hannah-witheridges-familys-torturous-pain

-- sky NEWS 2015-09-15

[pinkpanther99]

So sad. I cant begin to imagine your pain.

My heart goes out to you.

[seahorse]

Another report.

[seahorse]

It isn't what we write,

It isn't what we say,

It's how we feel deep inside,

As we think of them today.

[JLCrab]

So sad. I cant begin to imagine your pain.

My heart goes out to you.

Unfortunately, I can. My cousin was murdered while attending college by a 'harmless crazy' manual helper of her boyfriend who turned out to be not so harmless. He was captured shortly thereafter. Following that, her parents were never the same.

[Beng]

So that means that the RTP were actually hindering justice and wasting plenty of tax-payers money and time for all involved in the trial.

Well done BIB !!

[englishoak]

It isn't what we write,

It isn't what we say,

It's how we feel deep inside,

As we think of them today.

Indeed The UK is remembering and the media is still very much interested in this disgrace of what passes for policework in this farce http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-34251291

[Just1Voice]

What's unfortunate is that even if the B2 are found not guilty, there still won't be any "closure" for the families of David and Hannah. The RTP will simply drop the case, and never seriously go after anyone else. They've been paid too well to do that.

[Colabamumbai]

Only private foreign investigators will be able to solve this crime in Thailand. The family should give this some thought.

[webfact]

The Koh Tao murders anniversary – one year on

KOH SAMUI: -- Today is the first anniversary of the deaths of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller in Koh Tao. One year after the two young British travelers bodies were found dead on Siree Beach two Burmese migrant workers are spending their eleventh month in prison accused of the horrific crimes that shocked the world.

The families of the victims have both expressed their grief in press statements in the UK, the family of Hannah Witheridge told of how the promises that time would ease the pain go unfulfilled, the family of David Miller said their thoughts are still with their son.

The two men who stand accused of their murders, Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo still protest their innocence, their widowed mothers continue to visit them in the Samui Provincial Prison and sit behind them during the court hearings of which only four more days remain. The distress of the accused mothers is ever evident, both pray for justice both for their sons and ultimately for the families of the victims.

The court case surrounding the trial has unsurprisingly hit the media, the most shocking headline recently being that the DNA on the garden hoe, the alleged murder weapon, does not match that of the accused who allege they were tortured into confessions they later retracted. The prosecution insist that DNA samples taken from the crime scene do match those of the accused, the defense maintain their client’s innocence and have four days left to state their case. Before the case is over more forensic experts are due to take the stand. A verdict is expected sometime in October.


-- Samui Times 2015-09-15

[The Deerhunter]

We have to look at a little reality here. There is no way those two young men can be released. It was not just the local people nor the entire nation of Thailand but the whole world that was assured by the chief of state that those confessions were given voluntarily. Since the representartives from Scotland Yard have voiced no opinion about it, it can be presumed that they were persuaded that there was no violence involved in getting the confessions. If those two men are released, it is tantamount to declaring that they were indeed tortured into confessing and any future incident in which the police manage to extract a confession will be suspect and challengeable. So the trial must go on and the presiding judge must render a decision in which he declares that the alleged confessions were never a part of his deliberation, thereby making them redundant to any discussion. Then the police involved will be moved to another district, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Lucky police. No inactive posts for them, then???

[dcutman]

One year on and not one day closer to solving the horrific murders.

[Nemesis7]

Rest in Peace David & Hannah