Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[loonodingle]

Loondingle - "The coroner has carried out a meticulous forensic examination of the 2 deceased victims. They have found serious differences between the RTP pathologist's report and what is actually there for them to see. They will also have swabbed for DNA.

So different is there findings they have had to send the reports to the defence and the court. Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have.

Just wait and see what comes out. It will I am sure"

Source?

A few the first one was the case officer in Norwich who told me in all cases they will do a meticulous forensic examination which in murder cases will include DNA swabs. Unless for example the condition of tbe body does t allow. Say burnt for example. Whilst he couldn't comment directly on Hannah he assured me they leave no stone unturned.

Happy now?

[catsanddogs]

Reported on 15th September

The young woman’s throat had reportedly been cut while the man had suffered a cutting wound on the back of his head. Some of the pair’s clothes were located nearby, as was a hoe, which police believe was used in the murder.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-couple-murdered-in-thailand-pairs-bloodied-bodies-found-naked-on-koh-tao-beach-9732889.html

First time I've seen that reported.

[loonodingle]

The Biggest problem is this goes so high up the chain of command. Its not a local issue now it National and how they manage the outcome concerns me.

Will it be a case of no matter the case they are guilty or will it be possible to get a not guilty on overwhelming inconsistencies? Lack of evidence etc etc etc.

Theres some people who no matter what you tell them are so set in there agenda they will not loose face. Some even post on here.

Me well I am open minded I dont where blinkers. So far I have grave concerns that they are scapegoats. The fact that theres no independent corroboration on evidence verification leaves the case in tatters. Its turning out to be like a Thai TV soap. So ridiculous you want to laugh if it wasnt so serious.

[stephenterry]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

[Gweiloman]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

There hasn't been a shred of substantiated and verified evidence to the contrary. Therefore, how some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

[partington]

Loondingle - "The coroner has carried out a meticulous forensic examination of the 2 deceased victims. They have found serious differences between the RTP pathologist's report and what is actually there for them to see. They will also have swabbed for DNA.

So different is there findings they have had to send the reports to the defence and the court. Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have.

Just wait and see what comes out. It will I am sure"

Source?

A few the first one was the case officer in Norwich who told me in all cases they will do a meticulous forensic examination which in murder cases will include DNA swabs. Unless for example the condition of tbe body does t allow. Say burnt for example. Whilst he couldn't comment directly on Hannah he assured me they leave no stone unturned.

Happy now?

It is extremely unlikely that DNA was recoverable from the victim's body in the UK, since much more than a week had elapsed since the assault, meaning that intact DNA was probably not present (apologies for reposting below which I've posted before).

Quote (my emphasis) from Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals (2013) Jane M. Taupin CRC Press:

" Sperm is destroyed quickly in the relatively hostile environment of a

vagina. Many protocols recommend the taking of vaginal samples only if

the postcoital interval is less than 72 hours or three days (Mayntz-

Press et al., 2008). The literature notes that spermatozoa, although few in number,

can sometimes persist in a vaginal canal longer than three days, but

the survival rates are longer in the cervix. It has occasionally been found

that spermatozoa survive more than a week in a deceased victim.

[fireplay]

Loondingle - "The coroner has carried out a meticulous forensic examination of the 2 deceased victims. They have found serious differences between the RTP pathologist's report and what is actually there for them to see. They will also have swabbed for DNA.

So different is there findings they have had to send the reports to the defence and the court. Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have.

Just wait and see what comes out. It will I am sure"

Source?

A few the first one was the case officer in Norwich who told me in all cases they will do a meticulous forensic examination which in murder cases will include DNA swabs. Unless for example the condition of tbe body does t allow. Say burnt for example. Whilst he couldn't comment directly on Hannah he assured me they leave no stone unturned.

Happy now?

It is extremely unlikely that DNA was recoverable from the victim's body in the UK, since much more than a week had elapsed since the assault, meaning that intact DNA was probably not present (apologies for reposting below which I've posted before).

Quote (my emphasis) from Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals (2013) Jane M. Taupin CRC Press:

" Sperm is destroyed quickly in the relatively hostile environment of a

vagina. Many protocols recommend the taking of vaginal samples only if

the postcoital interval is less than 72 hours or three days (Mayntz-

Press et al., 2008). The literature notes that spermatozoa, although few in number,

can sometimes persist in a vaginal canal longer than three days, but

the survival rates are longer in the cervix. It has occasionally been found

that spermatozoa survive more than a week in a deceased victim.

And what about under fingernails?

[boomerangutang]

Beach cleaners discovered the Britons’ naked bodies 20 m apart by rocks on idyllic Sairee Beach on Sept. 15. A bloodstained garden hoe, commonly used by beachside bars to dig fire pits, was found nearby and has now been confirmed as the principal murder weapon, along with a wooden club.

The existence of two weapons has “made us believe that there are at least two attackers,” the deputy national police chief, Police General Somyot Pumpanmuang, told reporters Monday.

http://time.com/3420299/thailand-koh-tao-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller/

Wooden club in existence?

C&D, I think it's probably a situation of lax reporting for Time mag excerpt and similar for some other reports, particularly during the hours/days after the crime. Police were eager to make statements to try and show they were on the job. Overseas press corps don't fully understand how things transpire in Thailand. Thai cops will spout a bunch of ideas ("a Thai couldn't have done this" "it was probably a jealous farang boyfriend of David's" etc.) and int'l press lap it up, thinking it's as actual news. I recall hearing about a wooden club, but since it was not mentioned since, it was probably a canard, as is the unused condom (it exists but has no bearing on the case) the broken glass weapon (doesn't exist) and the cig butt (no real bearing on the case). It's like the beginning of an old Woody Allen movie where Woody's character is a thief. Late at night in a city, he stealthily cuts a 5" wide hole in a display window of a jewelry store. All the display jewelry is there within his grasp, but he instead steals the round piece of glass and slinks away satisfied.

[stephenterry]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

There hasn't been a shred of substantiated and verified evidence to the contrary. Therefore, how some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

It's called baiting. I'm sure they laugh about how many they infuriate with their confrontational approach.

[Gweiloman]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

There hasn't been a shred of substantiated and verified evidence to the contrary. Therefore, how some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

It's called baiting. I'm sure they laugh about how many they infuriate with their confrontational approach.

If so, then that's lower than low

[stephenterry]

Agree.

[boomerangutang]

No, I know who did it as most do but have the intelligence to realize that they will NEVER get prosecuted, even if all the evidence in the world points to them.

You may be wrong about that (I'd venture we both hope so). There was a case in Bkk from years ago, where an attractive young farang lady got murdered. The initial case had a scapegoat put forth by RTP. It fell apart. There was a subsequent trial which indicted some other men and a woman mastermind. The men were found guilty, but the woman avoided justice and now resides in my adopted town of Chiang Rai. It's no stretch to imagine she was either too rich and/or too well-connected to get nailed. Incidentally, the head cop in that case was scheduled to appear for a police disciplinary hearing (for trying to nail scapegoats). Just prior, he emptied his bank accounts and permanently split. He's reportedly holed up in Miami with no efforts by Thai authorities to bring him back to justice. So it's not unheard of, even in Thailand, for there to be a 2nd trial with new suspects. I won't be surprised if some top brass Thai policemen split the country if/when it's shown the whole ball of KT wax was a frame-up to protect people connected to the Headman.

[phuketandsee]

Loondingle - "The coroner has carried out a meticulous forensic examination of the 2 deceased victims. They have found serious differences between the RTP pathologist's report and what is actually there for them to see. They will also have swabbed for DNA.

So different is there findings they have had to send the reports to the defence and the court. Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have.

Just wait and see what comes out. It will I am sure"

Source?

A few the first one was the case officer in Norwich who told me in all cases they will do a meticulous forensic examination which in murder cases will include DNA swabs. Unless for example the condition of tbe body does t allow. Say burnt for example. Whilst he couldn't comment directly on Hannah he assured me they leave no stone unturned.

Happy now?

Relax loony, I'm on your side here.

Are you able to source "Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have"? Was this from the case officer also? I'll understand if you prefer not to break any confidences.

[kiwikeith]

How long does this circus of mitigated lies continue, how long is the face of police?

Will the DNA found on the Hoe be tested with the mafia boss's son?

Every day the police look like trained puppets, border coruuption rife as well making them look more disgacefull.

But you cant be wrong and lose face that is a bigger crime than murder and corruption.

[phuketandsee]

How long does this circus of mitigated lies continue, how long is the face of police?

Will the DNA found on the Hoe be tested with the mafia boss's son?

Every day the police look like trained puppets, border coruuption rife as well making them look more disgacefull.

But you cant be wrong and lose face that is a bigger crime than murder and corruption.

I think you may be unaware of what is at stake here and it's not loss of face by the RTP. Much bigger than that.

Edited September 13, 2015 by phuketandsee

[sweatalot]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

There hasn't been a shred of substantiated and verified evidence to the contrary. Therefore, how some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

only explanation

1. psychic illness

2. evil agenda

[sweatalot]

The open mind person like me is in no doubt that the b2 are innocent. I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

There hasn't been a shred of substantiated and verified evidence to the contrary. Therefore, how some are still firmly entrenched in their view that the B2 are guilty beyond reasonable is beyond imagination

It's called baiting. I'm sure they laugh about how many they infuriate with their confrontational approach.

If so, then that's lower than low

why do the mods still allow this?

[Nigeone]

Andy Hall facebook

Eventually after several defense team requests more substantial documentation has been provided to the court regarding the alleged DNA match between the accused and samples from the female deceased body. That documentation, that seeming remains still limited and incomplete, now is the key issue under examination. Reported Dr Pornthip already started to highlight concerns regarding this evidence in her testimony and surely more to come..

Are you Andy Hall's mate? 'm amazed the mods let you post those links.

Personally I hope he is. I would be proud to have him as a mate as he is one brave dude. Respect to him for standing up to the authorities in Thailand as not many would even consider it ! Respect !!

[Madaussie]

Loondingle - "The coroner has carried out a meticulous forensic examination of the 2 deceased victims. They have found serious differences between the RTP pathologist's report and what is actually there for them to see. They will also have swabbed for DNA.

So different is there findings they have had to send the reports to the defence and the court. Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have.

Just wait and see what comes out. It will I am sure"

Source?

A few the first one was the case officer in Norwich who told me in all cases they will do a meticulous forensic examination which in murder cases will include DNA swabs. Unless for example the condition of tbe body does t allow. Say burnt for example. Whilst he couldn't comment directly on Hannah he assured me they leave no stone unturned.

Happy now?

Relax loony, I'm on your side here.

Are you able to source "Included in this was the cause of death was not consistent with the RTP's findings I believe... on the info I have"? Was this from the case officer also? I'll understand if you prefer not to break any confidences.

I think we should all watch this space as things are going to heat up.

[loonodingle]

I said that already MadAussie..

Edited September 13, 2015 by loonodingle

[catsanddogs]

I said that already MadAussie..

I've always had doubts as to whether Hannah was raped. The RTP spent so much time during the investigation. saying she had been/hadn't been blah blah. We'll find out next week I guess.

[AleG]

So the defense strategy is to nitpick the procedures of forensic analysis that led to the DNA match, the problem with that is that it's not possible to go "oopsie, false positive!" with a DNA analysis, no mistake is going to produce a DNA match for not just one, but two persons.

The only thing that would give a false match is deliberately faking the results, since A ) they don't seem to have any evidence of that and B ) they refused to do a retest of those results it all amounts to insinuations; let's see how the judge weights those insinuations against the actual results from the analysis

Exactly that I think. If the defence takes us every day a particular object on which no dna 2B, we are not out of the woods. The only tangible deduction is that the police did not disguised these parts to conviction contrary to what one says loudly here.

We can easily bet that they will now do the same with clothing non-presented by the prosecution. Then they will challenge the process of DNA levies that match and it will be judges to decide.

We can also accept that they use so weak arguments because they don't have more convincing and therefore that the two accused are guilty. Let us now see if this trial reserve us a surprise ...

Well yes, it's not something that supports the theory of the two men being victims of a conspiracy; if that would be the case it would had been very easy for one of the conspirators to rub some samples from the defendants on the hoe (or other evidence provided for retesting) before handing it over, no?

It's not as if crazier things have been suggested to have happened regarding this case.

However it makes the excuse for not wanting to retest the DNA samples from the autopsy less believable, if they think they could be tampered with then the same standard would had been used for the other items, which the defense appears to hold as reliable.

If I'm not mistaken the next hearings will have the two defendants testifying; that would be interesting because there's something very unusual about this case that I haven't seen anyone noticing. Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo are very much a mystery, besides being Burmese from Rakhine and that they worked in Koh Tao for a couple years there's practically nothing else to be known about them. I don't know if the police did a background investigation on them, and normally the press would be digging up the lives of the suspects, but in this case? Nothing.

[kiwikeith]

So the defense strategy is to nitpick the procedures of forensic analysis that led to the DNA match, the problem with that is that it's not possible to go "oopsie, false positive!" with a DNA analysis, no mistake is going to produce a DNA match for not just one, but two persons.

The only thing that would give a false match is deliberately faking the results, since A ) they don't seem to have any evidence of that and B ) they refused to do a retest of those results it all amounts to insinuations; let's see how the judge weights those insinuations against the actual results from the analysis

Exactly that I think. If the defence takes us every day a particular object on which no dna 2B, we are not out of the woods. The only tangible deduction is that the police did not disguised these parts to conviction contrary to what one says loudly here.

We can easily bet that they will now do the same with clothing non-presented by the prosecution. Then they will challenge the process of DNA levies that match and it will be judges to decide.

We can also accept that they use so weak arguments because they don't have more convincing and therefore that the two accused are guilty. Let us now see if this trial reserve us a surprise ...

Well yes, it's not something that supports the theory of the two men being victims of a conspiracy; if that would be the case it would had been very easy for one of the conspirators to rub some samples from the defendants on the hoe (or other evidence provided for retesting) before handing it over, no?

It's not as if crazier things have been suggested to have happened regarding this case.

However it makes the excuse for not wanting to retest the DNA samples from the autopsy less believable, if they think they could be tampered with then the same standard would had been used for the other items, which the defense appears to hold as reliable.

If I'm not mistaken the next hearings will have the two defendants testifying; that would be interesting because there's something very unusual about this case that I haven't seen anyone noticing. Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo are very much a mystery, besides being Burmese from Rakhine and that they worked in Koh Tao for a couple years there's practically nothing else to be known about them. I don't know if the police did a background investigation on them, and normally the press would be digging up the lives of the suspects, but in this case? Nothing.

Two simple boys, gumagon boys from Burma trying to esacpe the horrible dirt floor persecuted poverty they live in and trying to get a quid to help mummy and daddy.

Thats my take on it after having visited and stayed in Burma a few times.

[AleG]

So the defense strategy is to nitpick the procedures of forensic analysis that led to the DNA match, the problem with that is that it's not possible to go "oopsie, false positive!" with a DNA analysis, no mistake is going to produce a DNA match for not just one, but two persons.

The only thing that would give a false match is deliberately faking the results, since A ) they don't seem to have any evidence of that and B ) they refused to do a retest of those results it all amounts to insinuations; let's see how the judge weights those insinuations against the actual results from the analysis

Exactly that I think. If the defence takes us every day a particular object on which no dna 2B, we are not out of the woods. The only tangible deduction is that the police did not disguised these parts to conviction contrary to what one says loudly here.

We can easily bet that they will now do the same with clothing non-presented by the prosecution. Then they will challenge the process of DNA levies that match and it will be judges to decide.

We can also accept that they use so weak arguments because they don't have more convincing and therefore that the two accused are guilty. Let us now see if this trial reserve us a surprise ...

Well yes, it's not something that supports the theory of the two men being victims of a conspiracy; if that would be the case it would had been very easy for one of the conspirators to rub some samples from the defendants on the hoe (or other evidence provided for retesting) before handing it over, no?

It's not as if crazier things have been suggested to have happened regarding this case.

However it makes the excuse for not wanting to retest the DNA samples from the autopsy less believable, if they think they could be tampered with then the same standard would had been used for the other items, which the defense appears to hold as reliable.

If I'm not mistaken the next hearings will have the two defendants testifying; that would be interesting because there's something very unusual about this case that I haven't seen anyone noticing. Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo are very much a mystery, besides being Burmese from Rakhine and that they worked in Koh Tao for a couple years there's practically nothing else to be known about them. I don't know if the police did a background investigation on them, and normally the press would be digging up the lives of the suspects, but in this case? Nothing.

Two simple boys, gumagon boys from Burma trying to esacpe the horrible dirt floor persecuted poverty they live in and trying to get a quid to help mummy and daddy.

Thats my take on it after having visited and stayed in Burma a few times.

I'm talking about their real lives, not an idealized notion of what or who they may be.

[loonodingle]

So the defense strategy is to nitpick the procedures of forensic analysis that led to the DNA match, the problem with that is that it's not possible to go "oopsie, false positive!" with a DNA analysis, no mistake is going to produce a DNA match for not just one, but two persons.

The only thing that would give a false match is deliberately faking the results, since A ) they don't seem to have any evidence of that and B ) they refused to do a retest of those results it all amounts to insinuations; let's see how the judge weights those insinuations against the actual results from the analysis

Exactly that I think. If the defence takes us every day a particular object on which no dna 2B, we are not out of the woods. The only tangible deduction is that the police did not disguised these parts to conviction contrary to what one says loudly here.

We can easily bet that they will now do the same with clothing non-presented by the prosecution. Then they will challenge the process of DNA levies that match and it will be judges to decide.

We can also accept that they use so weak arguments because they don't have more convincing and therefore that the two accused are guilty. Let us now see if this trial reserve us a surprise ...

Well yes, it's not something that supports the theory of the two men being victims of a conspiracy; if that would be the case it would had been very easy for one of the conspirators to rub some samples from the defendants on the hoe (or other evidence provided for retesting) before handing it over, no?

It's not as if crazier things have been suggested to have happened regarding this case.

However it makes the excuse for not wanting to retest the DNA samples from the autopsy less believable, if they think they could be tampered with then the same standard would had been used for the other items, which the defense appears to hold as reliable.

If I'm not mistaken the next hearings will have the two defendants testifying; that would be interesting because there's something very unusual about this case that I haven't seen anyone noticing. Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo are very much a mystery, besides being Burmese from Rakhine and that they worked in Koh Tao for a couple years there's practically nothing else to be known about them. I don't know if the police did a background investigation on them, and normally the press would be digging up the lives of the suspects, but in this case? Nothing.

Two simple boys, gumagon boys from Burma trying to esacpe the horrible dirt floor persecuted poverty they live in and trying to get a quid to help mummy and daddy.

Thats my take on it after having visited and stayed in Burma a few times.

I second that. In the wrong place at the wrong time. They made it all fit best as possible.

[Darkknight666]

Why is the DNA evidence against the B2 under such tight wraps? If it was collected properly and documented the same the police would have put it up first thing. They're scared to put it up... Because it's crap. No other reason to withhold it from the defense at all... Zero. I wonder what the shills will say when it does pop up in court and can't be verified, what left to cling to?

[Fat Haggis]

That report stating the bodies were found 20Ms apart is making me wonder about something, 20 metres is quite apart, if that's the case, was the original crime scene pictures staged as I'm pretty sure both were found close together ? Maybe I'm mistaken, considering the clothes were staged at one point it would hardly surprise me if the crime scene was also "manipulated"

Look at the pictures of the little immigrant kid washed ashore drowned on the beach, initial Crime scene pictures had this poor little chap found amongst the rocks, his body was then moved and staged to "appear more dramatic"

No reason why the same things couldn't have happened here in this case.

[Fat Haggis]

Why is the DNA evidence against the B2 under such tight wraps? If it was collected properly and documented the same the police would have put it up first thing. They're scared to put it up... Because it's crap. No other reason to withhold it from the defense at all... Zero. I wonder what the shills will say when it does pop up in court and can't be verified, what left to cling to?

Each other as they will have no straws left to clutch either!!

[JLCrab]

From the above: In the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes -- how were they supposed to know that there was a shirt and shoe snatcher on the loose?

[StealthEnergiser]

Big Week For the Defense!

13 Sep 2015 — Hello everyone. I have been waiting for significant news to pop up before I bombarded all of your email addresses with an update. This week has been VERY good for the defense.

Dr. Pornthip, who is a sort of forensics celebrity in Thailand, has testified that there was NO DNA from Win and Zaw found on the murder weapon. She did state however that there was the DNA of two other males on the weapon. She also pointed out a number of other irregularities and falsehoods in regards to the way the alleged police investigation was carried out.

https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/13374060?tk=0iFzBsZhdnA5HCgKS2TiVXDDxbNwTsROs72ecvOZXKs&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

https://twitter.com/atomicalandy

Edited September 13, 2015 by metisdead