Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[Loeilad]

The RTP are infamous for incomptetence, many crimes and corruption-I never thought these two Burmese were other than scapegoats as most Thai's hate the Burmese!

Sadly, we aren't talking just about incompetence here. If that were the case then a future investigation into the real murderers identity might be possible. It's quite apparent that a lot of basic investigative procedures weren't followed and evidence has been ignored, lost/manipulated or withheld, all with the aim of convicting the B2. The Thai police have a long well earned reputation for perverting the course of justice. It remains to be seen whether they have been successful in their corrupt endeavours. I certainly hope not!

Yes - thanks to the handling of this case, the evidence and the plethora of conflicting and premature/misleading and inappropriate statements by the authorities, any trial of anyone for this crime is unlikely to be more than a farce.

[smedly]

The crime scene management was the first issue that has come to haunt the cops as it was never done properly.

The Judges themselves must be aware that procedures were not carried out correctly.

The crime scene and the bodies themselves were not subject to forensic pathologists, which Dr. Porntip highlighted on several occasions, it would have taken a couple of hours to get one on scene, why didn't the coppers request one, unless they already know that an "outside agency" would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and thier "theory/stories/version of events" would possibly have been blown out of the water, pretty much like it has been already.

The decision to not produce the chain of custody documents must also have the judges question why not?

If this was as watertight as the police and the prosecution claimed, they would have been producing these documents in triplicate and ramming it down the defence's throat.

Just like the DNA match, it's nothing more than RTP hearsay, no chain of custody documents, is really the final unraveling of the charade of a watertight case, I feel sorry for the families of the victims as whatever "evidence" it was that they felt comfortable in releasing theses statements with regards to the accused having a case to answer to, with compelling and overwhelming evidence to support this.

good post, they didn't want anyone involved that could not be bought or controlled, and since the directors cut was clear as to who was in the chair from early footage a certain person was wading through the scene to make sure it was played as scripted - lights camera action, and meanwhile back at the AC bar ............oh that bit was scripted out and on the cutting floor

In any murder investigation there are two key elements that become the intense focus of any investigation

1. The crime scene (obvious)

2. The place where the victims were last seen alive, very often a motive for the murder can be found there

Apart from very early on - the complete omission of any reference to a certain bar speaks very loud in my ear

Apart from very early on - the complete omission of hours of cctv footage from the cameras that were working speaks very loud in my ear

The police claim the two accused left the beach on a motorbike, why have they not confirmed this with cctv footage, perhaps because it would confirm that they did in fact leave the beach area at 2am as they claimed

Running man seems to be wearing Davids shorts, why were they not DNA tested ?

Why were obvious puncture wounds on Davids body not investigated ?

Why were there no scenes of crime experts brought in to investigate the crime scene ?

Why have the police not produced the DNA COC documents, why have they not submitted the claimed DNA evidence, if they couldn't produce then it should never have been presented to the court as claimed evidence - it should have been excluded

Why why why why ? many questions not answered

didn't fit with the agenda is the most obvious answer

[springheeled jack]

I have already commented on this case many times the rtp will do their damnedest to bring about a guilty verdict as they have tried to do from the start to lose this case would bring about a loss of face, that cannot happen i feel sorry for these two boys to be found guilty in a country where justice does not prevail its so sad .

[boomerangutang]

Nailing the B2 by any means is important to authorities, but the over-riding priority is to continue to shield Mon, Nomsod and their weaponized-ring wielding buddies and cop-friends from any scrutiny. Thus far, they've been successful. Authorities don't even seem to mind that their prosecution is shot full of holes. They would have preferred an old-fashioned (pre-social-media) type trial, where all they claim is taken as gospel. Even a lousy prosecution is somewhat alright with officialdom, because it continues to divert attention away from the Headman's people. That's why, even if the B2 are found not guilty, Thai top brass will probably opt to appeal - thereby wasting more time. The more time wasted, the colder the case becomes and the harder it will be to indict any of the H's people in the future. It also fits with how/why officials' DNA and forensic evidence is so shoddy. If the most likely perps are ever brought to trial, their defense team only needs to say, "Hey, the DNA trail has been shot full of holes. It has no credence, so there's no evidence."

[Alwyn]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

I was able to open it as I'm in the UK at the moment. If you can open it, it's worthwhile, very enlightening. I'm happy to take a screen-shot and put it here if it's allowed?

[Alwyn]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

I got it open as I'm in the UK; It's a very enlightening piece and I'm happy to take a screen-shot and post it here if that's allowed?

[metisdead]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

I was able to open it as I'm in the UK at the moment. If you can open it, it's worthwhile, very enlightening. I'm happy to take a screen-shot and put it here if it's allowed?

Content from that commercial blog site is not allowed here. Please understand Thai Visa is not employed as a tool to obtain information for Andrew Drummond nor do we use material from his web site.

[Alwyn]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

I was able to open it as I'm in the UK at the moment. If you can open it, it's worthwhile, very enlightening. I'm happy to take a screen-shot and put it here if it's allowed?

Content from that commercial blog site is not allowed here. Please understand Thai Visa is not employed as a tool to obtain information for Andrew Drummond nor do we use material from his web site.

okidoki

[BritTim]

Nailing the B2 by any means is important to authorities, but the over-riding priority is to continue to shield Mon, Nomsod and their weaponized-ring wielding buddies and cop-friends from any scrutiny. Thus far, they've been successful. Authorities don't even seem to mind that their prosecution is shot full of holes. They would have preferred an old-fashioned (pre-social-media) type trial, where all they claim is taken as gospel. Even a lousy prosecution is somewhat alright with officialdom, because it continues to divert attention away from the Headman's people. That's why, even if the B2 are found not guilty, Thai top brass will probably opt to appeal - thereby wasting more time. The more time wasted, the colder the case becomes and the harder it will be to indict any of the H's people in the future. It also fits with how/why officials' DNA and forensic evidence is so shoddy. If the most likely perps are ever brought to trial, their defense team only needs to say, "Hey, the DNA trail has been shot full of holes. It has no credence, so there's no evidence."

My personal view is that the objectives of the top brass and those of the local Region 8 mob were, and are, different.

• To take the local Surat Thani RTP and mafia first. There, definitely, the key objective was to protect the real perpetrators. If allowed, it would have been a "suicide", "drug overdose" or one of the many unsolved crimes. This was not an option, so scapegoats had to be found.
• At national level, the top priority was a quick resolution of the case. Other things being equal, they would have been happy with the real criminals being caught (even if they were from a locally influential Thai family) but they were happy enough to go along with scapegoats if that was the best they could get.

There was some overlap, with buddies of the Region 8 mob in Bangkok helping with falsification of evidence, but the top brass were not directly responsible for the cover up and framing of the Burmese.

That being so, the trial verdict and whether there is an appeal will most likely rest on what they decide at senior levels will cause the least trouble, diplomatically and in media terms. Further, although unlikely, enough heat just might induce the top brass to go after those responsible for their loss of face. While the murderers would still probably go free, the police most involved in this could end up in jail.

[Linky]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

unable to open

I was able to open it as I'm in the UK at the moment. If you can open it, it's worthwhile, very enlightening. I'm happy to take a screen-shot and put it here if it's allowed?

Content from that commercial blog site is not allowed here. Please understand Thai Visa is not employed as a tool to obtain information for Andrew Drummond nor do we use material from his web site.

Was just wondering why considering it seems ok to use material from other commercial sites. Seems more a personal issue. So be it

[thailandchilli]

The Commissioner-General of the Royal Thai Police has verified that the investigation of Koh Tao murders is completely transparent, and anybody accusing the police of arresting scapegoats could be charged with insulting officials:http://www.samuitimes.com/police-charges-accusing-police-using-scapegoats/

Then he soon realized that there's not enough monkey houses to hold the hundreds of thousands of people in Thailand who believe the B2 are scapegoats. As for the international community well single internet gateway anyone?

[Linky]

So let me try to understand this.

Defence has a dna expert to testify re the Thai dna results.

Prosecution know defence have this guy so decide to refuse to tender the chain of custody and other docs relating to dna and expect the court to accept the word of the RTP saying 'they did it because we say so'

Is that the crux of it?

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about the single gateway have been removed. There are plenty of topics in the Thailand News forum where this issue can be discussed.

[StealthEnergiser]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7HoLRHjpKg

[BritTim]

So let me try to understand this.

Defence has a dna expert to testify re the Thai dna results.

Prosecution know defence have this guy so decide to refuse to tender the chain of custody and other docs relating to dna and expect the court to accept the word of the RTP saying 'they did it because we say so'

Is that the crux of it?

Pretty much. Worth mentioning that according to Dr Pornthip and the UK postmortem report, there is great doubt at to whether a rape occurred, and we only have the word of the RTP (oh, and that chain of custody) that any semen samples ever even existed, let alone whether they contained the Burmese kid's DNA.

Other than that, the prosecution's key evidence is rock solid.

[Loeilad]

if you think this the B2 did it and therefore this trial is OK - YOU ARE WRONG! - it doesn't matter who is on trial - virtually every step from the first grim discovery to the court is flawed; it has been either cocked up interfered with or jeopardised by those are involved in the investigation....and quite a few who aren't

[IslandLover]

BoristheBlade, on 03 Oct 2015 - 07:27, said:

Whoever released the crime pictures of the victims, should be sent to jail immediatly and sacked from their employment.

Any human being that can upload pictures of the two murder victims is a very sick individual, and in my opinion is just as bad as the people who committed these acts, maybe the people are known to each other?

The irony is that if those crime scene photos hadn't been posted on the internet, this case would have been done and dusted already and the B2 would be dead.

[Nowisee]

These people (BiB) are WAY out of their league... they are incapable of processing a crime scene. They <deleted> this up from the very beginning. This stinks of cover up and I have never had faith in and never will in these peoples ability to process a crime scene.

[stephenterry]

The Commissioner-General of the Royal Thai Police has verified that the investigation of Koh Tao murders is completely transparent, and anybody accusing the police of arresting scapegoats could be charged with insulting officials:http://www.samuitimes.com/police-charges-accusing-police-using-scapegoats/

Then he soon realized that there's not enough monkey houses to hold the hundreds of thousands of people in Thailand who believe the B2 are scapegoats. As for the international community well single internet gateway anyone?

This is the sort of guy I'd like to take to a safe room and beat the living shit out of. I guess my post will be deleted. Oh well, had my rant at the total injustice.

[IslandLover]

transam, on 03 Oct 2015 - 08:01, said:

Wouldn't it be great if they found out who's DNA was on the hoe besides Hannah's...Ain't the B2's, so whose is it. If Hannah's was on it the actual killer will definitely be on it...As for Dave's demise, other stuff was involved.

We need 'real' police work here, the technology is out there, even the technology to have a 'good' look at video stuff........

Hannah's DNA, and David's, was also found on the handle of the hoe, which indicates that both of them held it at some point. A third person's partial DNA was also found on the hoe but this person has not been identified. So, whose DNA is it? This is the $64k question.

[IslandLover]

BritTim, on 03 Oct 2015 - 08:56, said:

transam, on 03 Oct 2015 - 08:01, said:

Wouldn't it be great if they found out who's DNA was on the hoe besides Hannah's...Ain't the B2's, so whose is it. If Hannah's was on it the actual killer will definitely be on it...As for Dave's demise, other stuff was involved.

We need 'real' police work here, the technology is out there, even the technology to have a 'good' look at video stuff........

Touch DNA of both Hannah and David was on the hoe's handle. Hannah's blood (but not David's blood) was also found. There was also a partial DNA profile of another male insufficient for identification.

By far the most likely explanation of the DNA evidence is that the hoe was not the murder weapon. On the contrary, it appears Hannah and David were trying to use the hoe to defend themselves. When the attack was over, the hoe was used to mutilate Hannah's head and make it appear as though it was the murder weapon.

If Hannah's clothing resurfaces, and is subjected to DNA analysis, it may reveal the DNA profiles of one or more of the attackers. This is not certain if, as now seems possible, there was no actual rape.

If Hannah's clothing resurfaces, and is subjected to DNA analysis, it may reveal the DNA profiles of one or more of the attackers. This is not certain if, as now seems possible, there was no actual rape.

Someone has to have touched her clothing because when her body was found, her strapless top was pulled down around her waist and her skirt had been pulled up to make it look like she had been sexually assaulted. However, everything from that crime scene must be so contaminated by now that her clothing could contain many people's DNA.

[IslandLover]

balo, on 03 Oct 2015 - 09:26, said:

BritTIm "By far the most likely explanation of the DNA evidence is that the hoe was not the murder weapon. On the contrary, it appears Hannah and David were trying to use the hoe to defend themselves. "

I agree , they would pick up anything on the beach to defend themselves if they were under attack . But was it David or Hannah that used the hoe, both their DNAs were found on the handle ?

Yes, both Hannah and David's DNA was found on the handle of the hoe. This was confirmed in court.

[Loeilad]

BritTim, on 03 Oct 2015 - 08:56, said:

transam, on 03 Oct 2015 - 08:01, said:

Wouldn't it be great if they found out who's DNA was on the hoe besides Hannah's...Ain't the B2's, so whose is it. If Hannah's was on it the actual killer will definitely be on it...As for Dave's demise, other stuff was involved.

We need 'real' police work here, the technology is out there, even the technology to have a 'good' look at video stuff........

Touch DNA of both Hannah and David was on the hoe's handle. Hannah's blood (but not David's blood) was also found. There was also a partial DNA profile of another male insufficient for identification.

By far the most likely explanation of the DNA evidence is that the hoe was not the murder weapon. On the contrary, it appears Hannah and David were trying to use the hoe to defend themselves. When the attack was over, the hoe was used to mutilate Hannah's head and make it appear as though it was the murder weapon.

If Hannah's clothing resurfaces, and is subjected to DNA analysis, it may reveal the DNA profiles of one or more of the attackers. This is not certain if, as now seems possible, there was no actual rape.

If Hannah's clothing resurfaces, and is subjected to DNA analysis, it may reveal the DNA profiles of one or more of the attackers. This is not certain if, as now seems possible, there was no actual rape.

Someone has to have touched her clothing because when her body was found, her strapless top was pulled down around her waist and her skirt had been pulled up to make it look like she had been sexually assaulted. However, everything from that crime scene must be so contaminated by now that her clothing could contain many people's DNA.

When will the amateur Sherlocks realise that their "clues" have nothing to do with the matter in hand....the issue is there is no fair trial - the "evidence" or their Clues are irrelevant.

[IslandLover]

Trisha61, on 03 Oct 2015 - 10:07, said:

Jersey Evening Post (PUBLISHED: October 2, 2015 12:00 pm) :- Never let a person sit alone': Memorial bench for David Miller unveiled on north coast.

See jerseyeveningnews.com for photographs, as Moderator has taken down the pictures that I posted. Sorry I do not know how to embed a link from my iPad.

'Never let a person sit alone': Memorial bench for David Miller unveiled on north coast

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/10/02/never-let-a-person-sit-alone-memorial-bench-for-david-miller-unveiled-on-north-coast/

[boomerangutang]

To fit Pontip and her staffs' findings on the hoe, here is an updated scenario:

I've already postulated that David and Hannah were not together for much of the early morning, the 15th. It appears David left AC bar to go back to his g.h. room, and probably spoke with Mr. Ware. David was concerned about Hannah, so he went out again, about 3:30 am to find her. He did find her at the beach and it was obvious she was in dire straits. Here's the connection to the hoe: As he approached the problem area, he may have snatched the hoe from the tiny garden area, to use as a weapon. Alternatively, one of the Thai trouble makers (probably someone associated with Mon, if not Mon himself), might have grabbed the hoe first, and gone to ward off David's approach. David protected himself by trying to deflect/grab the hoe. Am not sure how Hannah's DNA got on the handle, though I could venture some guesses. It's obvious that if Ms Pontip's forensic team found DNA traces of one or two 'as yet unidentified' people on the hoe handle, then there should be a concerted effort to find who matches.

Shame on Thai forensics for not investigating any of the clothing. Double shame on them for losing the blonde hair. Triple shame for losing or destroying or not looking at potentially implicating CCTV and the plethora of other things they royally screwed up. The detectives in this case deserve the harshest sentencing if/when it's proved they intentionally skewed evidence. First order of business toward that end is to confiscate passports of all top brass who've been involved, including Somyot and his replacement Jaktip. If precedence is anything to go by, they'll do runners if/when they're indicted for intentionally botching the investigation.

[boomerangutang]

From the OP: The head of Thailand's central forensics institute told the trial that two profiles were found on the hoe - one a full sample, the other a partial sample - but neither matched the defendants.

One sample was probably the worker who owns/uses the hoe. The other (if not David's or Hannah's) is a mystery person who RTP won't want ID'd.

more from OP: Prosecutors claim other DNA - found on Miss Witheridge's body - does match the defendants.

Perhaps the report meant to say 'in' not 'on.' Thai is not a precise language, and neither are Thais claiming to speak English, know for being precise. Regardless, it appears RTP not only didn't inspect Hannah's or David's clothing, but they conveniently can't account for at least two pieces of Hannah's clothing. Gauging what RTP says about DNA is like gauging what Thaksin says in any of his announcements: In both cases, you can take what they claim, turn it 180 degrees, and you'll get closer to the truth.

[IslandLover]

AGareth2, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:22, said:

or the blonde hair came from the facebook cop?

There is another KT local who has been pictured wearing a blond wig.

[IslandLover]

StealthEnergiser, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:24, said:StealthEnergiser, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:24, said:

Koh Tao Policeman that testified , Loves wearing Blonde and Black wigs , Sings and plays Guitar and also works as a DJ .

Jakkrapan.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/jarkrapan.kaewkhao

So does this guy:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201544419024917&set=pb.1010410587.-2207520000.1443887130.&type=3&theatre

He also likes blond-haired female tourists.

[BritTim]

When will the amateur Sherlocks realise that their "clues" have nothing to do with the matter in hand....the issue is there is no fair trial - the "evidence" or their Clues are irrelevant.

I understand why you cringe at the critique of the RTP's (non) investigation, but it is not senseless. Public attention and opinion has little impact on a first world criminal justice system. In a country like Thailand, the only real chance for a relatively fair and transparent process is to keep the spotlight firmly focused on it. What is said in court, and the obvious framing of the Burmese, will be covered up (along with the original crime) unless maximum effort is made to make it known. The leading media companies and human rights organizations are most important in this, but forums such as this also play a part.

Just saying "unfair" has no effect on those who have not been following the case closely. Statements like

• The RTP claim rape; Dr Pornthip and UK postmortem report claim falsified Thai autopsy report and probably no rape
• RTP cannot produce claimed semen samples
• No investigation of bar where Hannah and David were last seen alive
• RTP did not try to stop people leaving after the murders, or check CCTV to see who fled
• Victims clothing not checked for DNA traces; may even have been "lost"

can lead a few more people to pay attention and ultimately increase the pressure on the Thai authorities. Yes, sometimes I want to cringe, especially when inaccurate claims are made, but there is method to our madness.

[IslandLover]

joebrown, on 03 Oct 2015 - 12:54, said:joebrown, on 03 Oct 2015 - 12:54, said:

StealthEnergiser, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:24, said:StealthEnergiser, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:24, said:me

Koh Tao Policeman that testified , Loves wearing Blonde and Black wigs , Sings and plays Guitar and also works as a DJ .

Jakkrapan.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/jarkrapan.kaewkhao

Does anyone know whether it was this policeman (or another policeman) who posted the crime scene pics on Facebook? Has the poster(s) been identified?

I did read somewhere that it was the so-called Koh Tao "Rescue Workers" who posted the crime scene photos on facebook. They are not police.