Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[sambum]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

On Dec 25th most English language papers around the western world will not be publishing, bit of a worry and maybe not as coincidental at second glance.

The newspapers are all online, times are a changing.

But people might be preoccupied with turkeys of a different kind on Christmas Day!

[nontabury]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

No way" was this a coincidence. Definitely planned by the court. As to why we can only speculate.

[silverado]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

No way" was this a coincidence. Definitely planned by the court. As to why we can only speculate.

i don't think the motivation of the judges ("we can only speculate") , will work.... b2 guilty or not , strong reactions are expected from thousands of people in and out thailand, and worldwide medias....

Edited October 13, 2015 by silverado

[balo]

sadly everyone is entitled to an opinion

We should be happy about that, freedom of speech is for everyone. Maybe except North Korea.

[catsanddogs]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

No way" was this a coincidence. Definitely planned by the court. As to why we can only speculate.

i don't think the motivation of the judges ("we can only speculate") , will work.... b2 guilty or not , strong reactions are expected from thousands of people in and out thailand, and worldwide medias....

As another poster pointed out news updates are online at the flick of a switch. Same for TV and radio - News bulletins every hr in UK on radio and throughout the day on TV.

[catsanddogs]

We are one year on today from this in the news -

In a statement, the FCO said: "Mr Swire stressed that there was a real concern in the UK about how the investigation has been handled by the Thai authorities.

"He said that it was crucial for the investigation to be conducted in a fair and transparent way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29604685

[catsanddogs]

We are one year on today from this in the news -

In a statement, the FCO said: "Mr Swire stressed that there was a real concern in the UK about how the investigation has been handled by the Thai authorities.

"He said that it was crucial for the investigation to be conducted in a fair and transparent way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29604685

It would be good to hear now, after one year, if Mr Swire is now reassured and has no concerns.

[beowolf2012]

The way I see it in so it must still be study judges.
As they constantly replace them.
When the case should be closed and to be given trial then it must be brand new judges. There must not be a single one of the old judges to pass judgment as they will be disqualified.

Edited October 13, 2015 by metisdead
Oversize bold font reset to normal.

[boomerangutang]

There isn't even enough evidence to prove that Wei ever touched David's phone. He found a phone on the beach but the police also found a phone at the beach and the one they found was at the crime scene. Which one is more likely to be David's?

They also claim to have found a phone near Wei's residence. Now given that we have strong evidence for a frame up, including torture and concealment of evidence. I must assume that planting the crime scene phone, in a place where they knew Wei's friend had tossed the other, is a distinct possibility. In fact it is highly unlikely the police would have discovered a phone out in the bushes had they not been tipped off.

If this is not the case then who's phone did the police find at the crime scene if it wasn't David's?

From the highlight above if not Davids then this could be another explanation:

Perhaps the same person who had blonde hairs at least one of which was found in Hannah's hand. Or the blond hairs found snagged in the phone: "There was also blonde hair on a mobile telephone police have now located" Article from the 17th Sept http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11103274/DNA-found-on-body-of-murdered-British-backpacker-in-Thailand-no-match-to-suspects.html

All this banter about the phone is tiring. RTP have so little to base their frame-up upon that they're grasping at the phone thing like a liferaft. It's mostly moot. The most the phone proves - if it's David's - is that Wei picked it up 5 minutes walk from the crime scene (200 meters?). So maybe he's a petty thief. I've done worse things than that, as have probably everyone reading this. So bust the kid for stealing a phone, fine him Bt.500 and let the two guys go. In a fair world, they'd be confiscated for the 13 months they've been jailed under false pretenses. I'd vote for Bt.1 million each, given that RTP and prosecution knowingly tried to nail false charges on them.

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

I grew up in Washington D.C. and some of my friends' parents worked in CIA and FBI. There were times, when I questioned things, like for example when Reagan was in power, why the gov't made secret deals with the Iranians (who the US was embargoing) to ship weapons to the Contras (who the US officially claimed they were not supporting). There were other issues, but the stock answers from CIA and FBI workers usually started with some vapid thing like, "there are people in high positions who know more than us about what's going on. Therefore, they're basing their decisions on privy info."

Well, as a person grows up, he learns that may or may not be true, but regardless: people higher up OFTEN MAKE STUPID DECISIONS.

David's family want justice and they surely want closure. Perversion of justice may bring closure of sorts, but it's doubtful it's the sort of closure they want.

[TheCruncher]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

No way" was this a coincidence. Definitely planned by the court. As to why we can only speculate.

i don't think the motivation of the judges ("we can only speculate") , will work.... b2 guilty or not , strong reactions are expected from thousands of people in and out thailand, and worldwide medias....

Don't worry, the usual tv armchair investigators will be online that day since they don't have anything else to do, and the Miller and Witheridge families and related will be informed through the proper channels. Other than that not many are even aware this trial is going on.

[silverado]

I know 24th December means nothing in Thailand, but still a bit odd they choose this date for the verdict.

But it doesn't really matter , the media will pick up the news of the verdict anyway , so I guess it was just a coincidence,

No way" was this a coincidence. Definitely planned by the court. As to why we can only speculate.

i don't think the motivation of the judges ("we can only speculate") , will work.... b2 guilty or not , strong reactions are expected from thousands of people in and out thailand, and worldwide medias....

Don't worry, the usual tv armchair investigators will be online that day since they don't have anything else to do, and the Miller and Witheridge families and related will be informed through the proper channels. Other than that not many are even aware this trial is going on.

it seems that you're very confused/confusing.... you don't make a difference between '' not have anything else to do'' and being very concerned by this very sad story and staying informed...

if i could advice you something, please stop using emblematic image of certain countries for your profile's pic : you are a shame for belgium (at least)

[B166ER]

...tut tut....6,545 on one site alone and all of their friends know about it.....dozens of mine know about it and all their friends.....10,225 on another site.....a petition of over 50,000 names and all their friends know about it....89,000+ on another site know about it and all their friends.....7, 271 pep's know about it on another site and counting.....oh and 583,127 on a very popular site supporting the Scapegoats know about it and all their friends too....I'm sure on Koh Tao there's a few people interested in the outcome as well.

It's only a matter of time before we start reading about them as well.....once they start closing the loose ends.

[boomerangutang]

But Cruncher, in the case of Koh Tao, the murderers are free, quite scary isn't it??

Please get to the court with your evidence asap, because nobody in their right mind would want 2 innocent people get a death sentence.

You do have hard evidence of your claims, don't you?

Hard evidence? Perhaps we should ask the pathologist who removed Hannah's clothes where they are, he may also divulge where the blond hair is? How about the blood on the sand that was also never tested. Plenty of hard evidence around just being hidden for some reason

The Cruncher asserts, "nobody in their right mind would want 2 innocent people get a death sentence."

Boomer's comment: Maybe yes, maybe no. The Headman and his brother and son are people. They probably don't want a death sentence for the two scapegoats, but they sure don't mind the B2 continued to be locked up unfairly, ...for several reasons (and for a long time) because.....

:

>>> it shifts focus from investigating those who really should be on trial for the crimes.

>>> it adds more time toward Statute of Limitations, which may be the saving grace for the real killers.

[boomerangutang]

Another reason the 'powers that be' don't mind the B2 being unfairly locked up for a long time....

>>> if any RTP or people connected to Mon were brought in to focus for legal wrongdoing, they would have enough time to empty bank accounts and quickly split far away. It's a Thai tradition to give clandestine notice to any VIP (rich, and/or politician, and/or well-connected, and/or police or army person) ....so they have time to grab their passports and jet off to a farang country.

[HUH]

Good to see some major media outlets in the US are sharing the latest AP news article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-thailand-tourist-murders-20151012-story.html

http://www.voanews.com/content/suspects-in-tourist-murders-allege-torture-by-thai-police/3002256.html

[catsanddogs]

Good to see some major media outlets in the US are sharing the latest AP news article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-thailand-tourist-murders-20151012-story.html

http://www.voanews.com/content/suspects-in-tourist-murders-allege-torture-by-thai-police/3002256.html

Wish they would get the facts right (as testified) -

Nakhon said Wai Phyo found the phone on the beach the night of the murder, and brought it with him to recharge the next morning. When he heard about the murder the next morning, he was afraid he would get into trouble, so he smashed the phone, put it in a plastic bag and threw it into the undergrowth behind his room.

And I see media are still reporting Hannah was raped as opposed to 'alleged rape with no evidence'

[berybert]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

You might just have it right. The U.K. observers who did nothing other than watch might have found out something from the RTP that confirms 100% guilt.

Now I know the RTP have been pretty poor before and during the trial, but do you really think the one thing they told the U.K. police which proved guilt is something they forgot to mention in court ?

[B166ER]

....when a person cannot deceive himself the chances are against his being able to deceive other people....words to contemplate whenever I read intel like ...."How did Mon know it was a Hoe missing".....a Grifter would call that a "tell"....

[steffi]

Any organization or entity that gives evidence to one side and not the other needs to have their motives questioned.

Edited October 13, 2015 by steffi

[phuketandsee]

Christmas Eve verdict is absolutely not a coincidence. I will be traveling to KS to give whatever support I can and personally thank Andy and his team for the incredibly brave work they have done.

[silverado]

Christmas Eve verdict is absolutely not a coincidence. I will be traveling to KS to give whatever support I can and personally thank Andy and his team for the incredibly brave work they have done.

very nice of you but me sorry, I really don't want to put a foot / one cent in surat thani province , specially in Koh tao/phangan/Samui... never of my life ! and it would be the same about all thailand if i haven't a gf and 2 children to take care in issaan.... must also add that i'll never encourage somebody else to go for it.... me sorry again to think thailand will never change....

[catsanddogs]

“I was sexually abused by Thai police” - Witheridge accused tells court

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/i_was_sexually_abused_by_thai_police_witheridge_accused_tells_court_1_4266818

[phuketandsee]

Christmas Eve verdict is absolutely not a coincidence. I will be traveling to KS to give whatever support I can and personally thank Andy and his team for the incredibly brave work they have done.

very nice of you but me sorry, I really don't want to put a foot / one cent in surat thani province , specially in Koh tao/phangan/Samui... never of my life ! and it would be the same about all thailand if i haven't a gf and 2 children to take care in issaan.... must also add that i'll never encourage somebody else to go for it.... me sorry again to think thailand will never change....

I feel exactly the same way but I feel strongly enough to make an exception in this case. The more people that show up the more both sides will realize people have not, and will not, forget this.

Edited October 13, 2015 by phuketandsee

[cyberfarang]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

So far I have completely disagreed with your opinions on this trial. However, I have to a admit the accused standing confession to finding the phone and smashing the phone after hearing about the murders does seem very odd.

A sensible person would also say it would be a fantastic coincidence that they were framing the 2 guys that just happened to find the phone, they also "realised" it might be part of the murders so they attempted to smash is and dump it. what are the odds really?

Also, his behaviour and explanation around the phone is strange. If I innocently found a phone on a beach and then later heard there had been some horrible murders on the same night further down the beach I would not immediately think to myself "wow, I bet that phone belongs to the victim, better dump it in case someone, some day accuses me of those murders,, can't be found with his phone"

In fact I might not even put the 2 together, I would just consider i had found a phone on the beach.. (of course I would attempt to get it back to owner but thats different story).

There are still many points I do not agree with you on and I have not u turned (still think there is not enough to convict these guys) but in this instance I do agree with you it is strange and it does look like something is wrong...

I have been following the trial with interest, and have been 50/50 with my thoughts on what the verdict may be.

But now with this phone business coming to light, I am swaying towards guilty. Has anyone ever thought that there may have been more then just these 2 guys involved? My theory had been that the couple went on the beach to make out, stumbled across by a group of men that decided to rape the girl at the scene, the man tried to fight off the attackers and ended up murdered, they raped the girl and murdered her to stop her identifying the attackers. The men now in custody being part of the attackers.

Plausible, I think.

[berybert]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

So far I have completely disagreed with your opinions on this trial. However, I have to a admit the accused standing confession to finding the phone and smashing the phone after hearing about the murders does seem very odd.

A sensible person would also say it would be a fantastic coincidence that they were framing the 2 guys that just happened to find the phone, they also "realised" it might be part of the murders so they attempted to smash is and dump it. what are the odds really?

Also, his behaviour and explanation around the phone is strange. If I innocently found a phone on a beach and then later heard there had been some horrible murders on the same night further down the beach I would not immediately think to myself "wow, I bet that phone belongs to the victim, better dump it in case someone, some day accuses me of those murders,, can't be found with his phone"

In fact I might not even put the 2 together, I would just consider i had found a phone on the beach.. (of course I would attempt to get it back to owner but thats different story).

There are still many points I do not agree with you on and I have not u turned (still think there is not enough to convict these guys) but in this instance I do agree with you it is strange and it does look like something is wrong...

I have been following the trial with interest, and have been 50/50 with my thoughts on what the verdict may be.

But now with this phone business coming to light, I am swaying towards guilty. Has anyone ever thought that there may have been more then just these 2 guys involved? My theory had been that the couple went on the beach to make out, stumbled across by a group of men that decided to rape the girl at the scene, the man tried to fight off the attackers and ended up murdered, they raped the girl and murdered her to stop her identifying the attackers. The men now in custody being part of the attackers.

Plausible, I think.

Read what has been written. "Lucky that the police picked up the 2 guys who just happened to find the phone"

Now work out that only one person found the phone and you can see thru the lies as simply as a 2 year old.

[catsanddogs]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

So far I have completely disagreed with your opinions on this trial. However, I have to a admit the accused standing confession to finding the phone and smashing the phone after hearing about the murders does seem very odd.

A sensible person would also say it would be a fantastic coincidence that they were framing the 2 guys that just happened to find the phone, they also "realised" it might be part of the murders so they attempted to smash is and dump it. what are the odds really?

Also, his behaviour and explanation around the phone is strange. If I innocently found a phone on a beach and then later heard there had been some horrible murders on the same night further down the beach I would not immediately think to myself "wow, I bet that phone belongs to the victim, better dump it in case someone, some day accuses me of those murders,, can't be found with his phone"

In fact I might not even put the 2 together, I would just consider i had found a phone on the beach.. (of course I would attempt to get it back to owner but thats different story).

There are still many points I do not agree with you on and I have not u turned (still think there is not enough to convict these guys) but in this instance I do agree with you it is strange and it does look like something is wrong...

I have been following the trial with interest, and have been 50/50 with my thoughts on what the verdict may be.

But now with this phone business coming to light, I am swaying towards guilty. Has anyone ever thought that there may have been more then just these 2 guys involved? My theory had been that the couple went on the beach to make out, stumbled across by a group of men that decided to rape the girl at the scene, the man tried to fight off the attackers and ended up murdered, they raped the girl and murdered her to stop her identifying the attackers. The men now in custody being part of the attackers.

Plausible, I think.

The Burmese are innocent until proven guilty. From what I have understood during the trial, one of them (WP) was on the beach at 4pm on the morning of the murders and another former suspect (MM), who was not arrested because he said he had an alibi (which it now seems he doesn't) , was also on the beach around 4am. That neither of these men have said they saw anyone else on the beach at that time or heard or saw anything suspicious is concerning. Nobody seems to have seen anything until 6am when beach cleaners arrived. I have read that Koh Tao is quite a happening place in the early hours and that there was a beach party going on that eve/morn so why no one around? Could there have been something happening somewhere else that was distracting everyone else maybe, so the attackers had that part of the beach all to themselves with someone keeping watch, or did the attacks happen not on the beach and the bodies were moved to the beach and staged? According to Sea McAnna, two French girls 'heard the whole thing' and gave statements to the RTP. These statements would shed light on the crimes but it appears they are not important enough to be used as evidence. Maybe that's one of the reasons McAnna had to be gotten rid of because he knew too much and spoke too much. I have read in one report recently that time of death was put at between 1.30 am and 5am - the French girls statements would appear crucial in determining time or death or time and whereabouts of attack. They could have been part of a group of attackers yes, they could have assisted (willingly or forced) in staging the scene or moving the bodies, or they could as they say, know nothing about the crimes. If the prosecution were to allow the defence to independently test the Burmese mens DNA against the DNA found in/on Hannah Witheridge then therein would lie the truth for all to see and absorb. Owning up to what happened to her clothes as well after the Thai autopsy would be helpful too. I don't believe human error is involved with the missing clothes - that was a premeditated loss.

[boomerangutang]

Don't worry, the usual tv armchair investigators will be online that day since they don't have anything else to do....

Yes, we're all sitting down while texting. We are investigating also, as best we can. We, in social media have truckloads of more pertinent data than the court has heard. I could make a list of items (and data, missed clues, trashed evidence, and likely perpetrators of the crime) which weren't mentioned in the trial, but it would be book-sized. We're posting because we (vast majority of us) sincerely want to see justice done. It's important. Plus we don't want criminals continuing to roam the beach resorts of southern Thailand - knowing they're untouchable by the stunted arm of the Thai law enforcement. Indeed, Thai officialdom not only tolerates despicable action by investigating cops - IT REWARDS IT WITH CASH AND PROMOTIONS !!!

....and the Miller and Witheridge families and related will be informed through the proper channels. Other than that not many are even aware this trial is going on.

If the victims' families are still getting their info from Brit experts, then they're likely getting false info. That's been proven. It's a sorry state of affairs that the families are being lied to by Brit officials. Perhaps Brit officials can find solace in the excuse that all they convey to the families is horseshit they've been fed by their Thai RTP interpreter.

[boomerangutang]

I have been following the trial with interest, and have been 50/50 with my thoughts on what the verdict may be.

But now with this phone business coming to light, I am swaying towards guilty. Has anyone ever thought that there may have been more then just these 2 guys involved? My theory had been that the couple went on the beach to make out, stumbled across by a group of men that decided to rape the girl at the scene, the man tried to fight off the attackers and ended up murdered, they raped the girl and murdered her to stop her identifying the attackers. The men now in custody being part of the attackers.

Plausible, I think.

The phone thing shows, at most, one guy found a phone in the vicinity (5 minute's walk) from the crime scene. I don't think either of the Burmese boys are guilty of the crime, but I think they know more about the crime than they're telling. But the defense's strategy is not to point to who are the most likely perps. Their job is to refute the prosecution's case. In this trial, the prosecution's case is less than flimsy. It's the purported DNA match which doesn't have a trail and is essentially hearsay by RTP. And there's the phone. Paltry.

Note: within the first day or two after the crime, RTP investigators mentioned finding a mobile phone at the crime scene. It was not Hannah's (her's was brought to their tiny office). The found phone was days before the phone was allegedly found alongside the B2's residence. Connect the dots. Even if the phone was taken from the sand (150 meters from the crime scene?) what does that prove? That one of the B2 was a petty thief. I hope Thai officialdom doesn't execute both boys because one picked up a phone in the sand.

[boomerangutang]

Note: the phone that RTP found at the crime scene. What's the story on that one? If it belonged to one of the real perpetrators, then the general public will never know.

[Dogmatix]

Now the trial is finished it is clear that the prosecution evidence against the defendants is limited to:

1) Their confessions allegedly made under police torture and later retracted. Apart from the torture, the retractions and police use of an unqualified translator illiterate in both Burmese and Thai, neither of which is his mother tongue, the confessions are inadmissible under Thai law because the accused were not advised of their right to remain silent or allowed to have lawyers present.

2) The police evidence of both defendants' DNA allegedly found inside Hannah. The DNA testing was done by police themselves in their own non-ISO certified lab. Police refused to allow independent testing of the samples and refused to provide comprehensive case notes of the analysis or documentation to verify the chain of custody. The DNA samples from the defendants were taken by ordinary policemen with no forensic or medical training. The crime scene was not sealed off and members of the public were allowed access to it. Critical evidence including the female victim's clothing that could have corroborated DNA findings was deliberately withheld by police. Moreover the Norwich coroner's report apparently found no evidence that Hannah had been sexually assaulted at all which suggests that any traces of male DNA found inside her where nor from semen and were probably not there at all on the night of the murders.

There is no physical evidence linking the defendants to murders at and there are no witnesses to the murders or to the alleged rape.

Can a Thai court convict on such evidence?

The answer is yes, it's been done many times before. Virtually all forensic examination is routinely carried by the police themselves in their uncertified facilities and this evidence is normally accepted without question by courts. Confessions made under duress to police without being given the right to remain silent or have a lawyer present are also the mainstay of prosecutors' evidence, without which many or most convictions would not be possible. It is only wealthy and connected suspects who dare tell police they will just have to wait to here their statement in court. Of course this rarely happens because without confessions the cases will not get to court.