Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[loonodingle]

Well, not really. I still think that OJ was guilty. But then I am not the court. What is the most important is what uthe court thinks and not me. That they have not been influenced by the media and social networks. I hope they believe innocent until proven guilty, which they are sworn to do.

But the Prosecution has made there case already, and whether you believe it is strong or not, they point to the accused guilt. So now it is the Defense Team that has to dispute this, which I believe they are doing now. They have to create reasonable doubt. If you believe reasonable doubt has been created already, then good on you. But I don't. .

So GB if that was one of your sons in the dock would u be happy for the police/courts to send your child to their death on the evidence submitted so far??

Straight Answer Yes/No

As a side note I did provide you with the coroners details and you have chosen not to follow it up so I have done it for you. A copy is posted earlier on this thread. At least then we can put you straight.

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

Yes all ears do you have anything inbetween?

Back with the insults again are we?

I thnk they are giving you an opportunity to make yourself look educated GB. You not helping your cause though.

[tajtom]

I thought the great Pm was a man to elimate corruption and protect the innocent ?

Maybe so although they have declared that the eevidence is not valid and there still going on with there Thai cowboy trial

Hey the dirty Thai that did it is laughing and probably has prior sexual crimes or assault charges

How do you feel police officer good... Remember god will not forget you son... There is no shining light for you and Buddha will not assist you... Tell the truth clean your soul before the fire takes you

[DarioS]

This is so sad

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-09-15/moving-video-tribute-made-to-david-miller-from-girlfriend/

[loonodingle]

I thought the great Pm was a man to elimate corruption and protect the innocent ?

Maybe so although they have declared that the eevidence is not valid and there still going on with there Thai cowboy trial

Hey the dirty Thai that did it is laughing and probably has prior sexual crimes or assault charges

How do you feel police officer good... Remember god will not forget you son... There is no shining light for you and Buddha will not assist you... Tell the truth clean your soul before the fire takes you

He already told us how can u be safe in a bikini.. So you know his mind set.

[thailandchilli]

This is so sad

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-09-15/moving-video-tribute-made-to-david-miller-from-girlfriend/

This is real life horror and tragedy. Pray for justice whoever the killers are.

[StealthEnergiser]

This is so sad

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-09-15/moving-video-tribute-made-to-david-miller-from-girlfriend/

Thank you for the Link heart breaking to see the him with family & friends enjoying a normal life and now some evil people /person have taken his and Hannah's life .

Very sad, sorry again to families and friends of what you are going through .

[fab99]

I thought the great Pm was a man to elimate corruption and protect the innocent ?

Maybe so although they have declared that the eevidence is not valid and there still going on with there Thai cowboy trial

Hey the dirty Thai that did it is laughing and probably has prior sexual crimes or assault charges

How do you feel police officer good... Remember god will not forget you son... There is no shining light for you and Buddha will not assist you... Tell the truth clean your soul before the fire takes you

I believe the beasts that did this are not wired as we are, they are not capable of remorse, they don't feel the need to clean their "soul"

I don't believe in any religion, so I don't take comfort in the belief that they will pay for it in hell or their next life, I would like them to pay in this life and the idea that they most probably are free to do it again is difficult to accept.

I and all the persons I know won't set a foot close to Koh Tao,

I don't want them (or anyone that has supported the mess of an investigation we have seen) to make a single baht from as many people as possible, I do my part and have prevented quite a few persons to go there and given better alternatives.

[IslandLover]

I have always been of the opinion that "running man" was wearing Davids shorts, possibly the only clean clothing not stained with blood that he could wear running up the street, they looked wet and far to big for the person wearing them, a dna test would be quite interesting

I don't see a belt on the shorts in any of the CCTV footage of "running man". Surely if a skinny Asian youth had been running around in David's shorts without a belt, he would have needed to use one hand to hold them up as they would have been far too big and loose? Otherwise, they would have fallen down around his ankles in no time. I don't see that happening in any of the CCTV footage. David's shorts were pictured at the crime scene, and afterwards, with a dark coloured belt. Even those blue things on the beach in the early "unofficial" crime scene photos had a belt around them.

I agree, all the victims' clothes should have been DNA tested. But they weren't, were they? The only possible reason they were not is that it could have identified the real killers.

Edited September 23, 2015 by IslandLover

[catsanddogs]

This is so sad

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-09-15/moving-video-tribute-made-to-david-miller-from-girlfriend/

Yes, so very sad.

[WhiteTrash]

The scene I can imagine is one of a violent struggle giving the fact that both victims had hands on the weapon at least once, it would have been on the floor grasping for the tool desperately either overcome by numbers or shear strength, the 2 accused don't fit this scenario

[fab99]

I agree, all the victims' clothes should have been DNA tested. But they weren't, were they? The only possible reason they were not is that it could have identified the real killers.

Yes, so many things were put aside to prevent finding what really happened and jsut support one scenario that now seems wrong (the scenario being : a surprise attack by the horny B2 seeing the couple having sex on the beach) :

> the hoe wasn't properly tested, it seems so incredible that the murder weapon wasn't given more attention. We now know that it was handled by Hannah and David, making the RTP scenario invalid.

> David's wounds surely don't look like they could have been made by the hoe and the hoe doesnt have David's blood on it, so where is the real other murder weapon ? Why wasn't it mentionned more clearly during the trial by the way? David's autopsy and the experts coming in the next two day could maybe shed some light on this matter.

> Hannah's clothes have never been tested (or the results weren't helpful so it wasn't used) and now are nowhere to be found to be tested, how is it possible? And if GB and AleG want to say again that we dont know for sure that they are not available, that it is the word of the defense... no, Pornthip said so and these clothes are just not part of the prosecution evidence, so where the h# are they?

> the chain of custody has never been provided (it has been asked for many times), and DNA has always been tested with the control of the RTP, not with Pornthip's independent forensic office as it should have been. There is a reason why chain of custody and independent forensics are common in most countries : it just works and prevents manipulation of something that should be irrefutable evidence : DNA.

> the CCTV haven't been properly investigated, they refused the help of English experts, if you want to solve a case (I said "if"), then any help is appreciated

> the translator used with the burmese can barely speak thai and can't speak the burmese dialect, he can't read and write thai either, and the confession signed by the B2 was in Thai... if that is not <deleted>## up, I don't know what is.

> photos of the scene and of the autopsy were missing, not enough budget to save them or print them was the excuse

It would all be quite funny if it weren't so tragic...

The way things have been done not only give serious doubts about the B2 matching but also seriously prevents finding the real culprits if the B2 are found innocent. In most other countries, many police officers in this case would face serious consequences, but not here...

[GAZZPA]

Well, not really. I still think that OJ was guilty. But then I am not the court. What is the most important is what the court thinks and not me. That they have not been influenced by the media and social networks. I hope they believe innocent until proven guilty, which they are sworn to do.

But the Prosecution has made there case already, and whether you believe it is strong or not, they point to the accused guilt. So now it is the Defense Team that has to dispute this, which I believe they are doing now. They have to create reasonable doubt. If you believe reasonable doubt has been created already, then good on you. But I don't. .

There are similarities between the OJ Simpson trial and this one, on both the defense exploited shortfalls in the investigation and playing up racial issues to influence the verdict, the outcome of that trial was a miscarriage of justice, since a jury was swayed by those tactics allowing a guilty man to walk free.

On this case there is no jury, so hopefully the verdict will be decided on the actual merits of the case rather than on what buttons can be pushed on a person to make a decision based on emotion rather than an objective analysis of the evidence.

This is not the OJ Simpson trial and what evidence should the judge make an objective analysis on? All i can see is an alleged forced confession and a DNA sample that cannot be verified. It seems you need to take a leaf out of your own book and think objectively.

you are right though, I too hope the judge can analyse the evidence and take it on its merits, from what I can see the B2 will then be going home with their family.

[WhiteTrash]

The scene I can imagine is one of a violent struggle giving the fact that both victims had hands on the weapon at least once, it would have been on the floor grasping for the tool desperately either overcome by numbers or shear strength, the 2 accused don't fit this scenario

[GAZZPA]

Well, not really. I still think that OJ was guilty. But then I am not the court. What is the most important is what the court thinks and not me. That they have not been influenced by the media and social networks. I hope they believe innocent until proven guilty, which they are sworn to do.

But the Prosecution has made there case already, and whether you believe it is strong or not, they point to the accused guilt. So now it is the Defense Team that has to dispute this, which I believe they are doing now. They have to create reasonable doubt. If you believe reasonable doubt has been created already, then good on you. But I don't. .

So GB if that was one of your sons in the dock would u be happy for the police/courts to send your child to their death on the evidence submitted so far??

Straight Answer Yes/No

As a side note I did provide you with the coroners details and you have chosen not to follow it up so I have done it for you. A copy is posted earlier on this thread. At least then we can put you straight.

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

She did send it to the Thai court. Although it cannot be made public it was the UK pathologists duty to present the findings to the court as they bear relevance in the case.

There are rumours to what that is but i won't entertain that. So lets see what happens,, if it is swept under the carpet now you can bet it will come out later,,

[IslandLover]

Trial resumes in Thailand of two men accused of murdering Norfolk woman Hannah Witheridge

The prosecution presented evidence that DNA from both the accused men was found on Ms Witheridge’s body. However the defence lawyers insist their clients are innocent, and say they will put forward testimony this week which will prove the two Burmese men did not kill Ms Witheridge or Mr Miller.

The trial continues.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/trial_resumes_in_thailand_of_two_men_accused_of_murdering_norfolk_woman_hannah_witheridge_1_4242304?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Can somebody on this forum who knows something about DNA kindly explain this?

Mr Waiyawuth said that a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile but that did not mean he could be included as a suspect. DNA experts agree that DNA profiling demands a 99.9999% accurate match.

What is meant by "a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile"? Does this mean that the partial profile was from someone of the same ethnicity, i.e. Asian, as one of the suspects?

No it does not.

A DNA profile can be thought of in simple terms as a set of 20- 30 different numbers, depending on whether the UK system (10 pairs of markers) or the US system (13 pairs of markers) is being used.

At each marker you read two numbers. In every person these numbers at each marker can vary between say 5 and 20. It's like a combination lock of 30 numbers long with each of the 30 values having at least 10 possibilities. Finding the combination by chance would have a probability less than one in 50 billion.

In exactly the same way, a DNA profile with all 30 numbers identifies a person absolutely: it is just impossible for two people to have the same set of 30 numbers by chance, so this is a perfect identification system.

BUT if you can only read 20 out of the 30 numbers , or 15 out of the 20, how good is the identification? Only being able to read some of the numbers from a DNA profile is very common indeed: when the DNA is in low amounts, when the DNA is a mix of many people, when the sample is very old and cells are degraded, when the sample is from a rape kit where the swab was taken a long period after the crime and the suspect's sample has been degraded by body enzymes, and so on.

So this is what, in general terms, is meant by a "partial profile".

The situation is even more uncertain here because they are talking about Y-chromosome profiling. This is often done when the DNA is in very low amounts, or is contaminated with huge amounts of victim DNA (as is often the case in sexual assaults), and you can't do a 'proper' 30-marker identification profile.

Because only men have the Y-chromosome, testing for a Y-chromosome profile eliminates all female DNA without having to do complicated chemical separations on the sample that can destroy much of it if the quality or amount is low.

BUT Y-chromosome typing is NOT good enough for identification purposes, because the Y-chromosome, unlike the markers used in the 13 marker profling above, does not change enough over time to be useful. All male relatives: fathers, brother, sons, paternal uncles, will have identical Y-chromosome markers, Also in some populations, especially where there is not much migration, it is possible for the same Y-chromosome profile to be present in as many as 1 in a 1000 unrelated people. So even a complete Y-chromosome profile is not good enough to prove identity.

Its main use is to exclude suspects. If a marker is present with, say, value 20 in a suspect, but the crime scene DNA has the value 11 at this place, this proves beyond argument that the DNA is not the suspect's.

A Y-chromosome match of 25%, which is being discussed here, means that only one quarter of the markers were the same. This means nothing at all about identification, as the witness said. No markers were readable that excluded the suspect, and a match of one quarter of the markers with the suspect gives no indication at all about whether it is his DNA, because this same match could have been obtained from any random man off the street.

Thanks for the explanation, particularly your last paragraph.

[Madaussie]

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

She did send it to the Thai court. Although it cannot be made public it was the UK pathologists duty to present the findings to the court as they bear relevance in the case.

There are rumours to what that is but i won't entertain that. So lets see what happens,, if it is swept under the carpet now you can bet it will come out later,,

I think you will find both coroners sent the reports to the court.

[IslandLover]

Island Lover - re your post 247

Yes it was mentioned by officer Somsak that a hammer was also believed to have been used but was never found.

Thanks. So, much like the "wine bottle" then?

[WhiteTrash]

I've used those heavy Thai hoe tools, I would struggle to swing it like a golf club and I swing sledgehammers for a living, the lady or someone of similar build would be useless trying to accurately aim something of that weight and awkwardness

[Nigeone]

I've used those heavy Thai hoe tools, I would struggle to swing it like a golf club and I swing sledgehammers for a living, the lady or someone of similar build would be useless trying to accurately aim something of that weight and awkwardness

Actually the Thai hoe that we had at our house in Thailand and looks the same as the pictured one is not heavy and surprising light and what's more my ex could dig with it for hours without any problem and she weighed in at 48kgs...I'm not sure if your mixing the Europe type which I actually still have one here at home which is far far heavier and a completely different weight. The metal digging part being a heavy casting. Not trying to argue just to point out some are not so heavy for sure

[IslandLover]

Where are the friends of Hannah and David when they need them the most? Maybe the fundraising should have extended to them too so they could have returned to Thailand and testify what they saw and heard in the early hours of September 15th that might have enabled the true scenario of the murders to be bought to light. Such as

whether David was indeed 'smitten' with Hannah as previously reported by one of the friends

whether there was an altercation and if one of them (the friends) was involved or had photographic evidence

whether Hannah and David left by the back door as police testified in court

why Hannah left her phone with her friends when she left the AC bar

whether she also left her purse with friends

Why she left the bar

why David left the bar

whether they left together or alone

whether it is true that David purchased a new pair of sun glasses at around 1.30 in the morning

whether Hannah had spoken to any friends about a man or men pestering her

did one of the female friends have a 'liaison' with a Thai local

whether David had one phone or two phones in his possession on holiday

whether David was carrying in his luggage trousers that were stained at the hems with some substance that was not blood

whether Hannah had had intercourse with someone whilst on Koh Tao

whether they were concerned of the whereabouts of Hannah and David when they left the bar

whether any of them went to look for Hannah and David when they didn't return to the bar

what time the friends left the bar and did they go straight back to the accommodation or elsewhere

did any of them have any interaction with Nomsod, Mon, Big Ears Cop, or any other Kao Tao locals

did they see the Burmese men playing guitar on the beach that morning

did they see a group playing a guitar and singing western songs on the beach that morning

did they see Sean McAnna that evening/morning

was one of the female friends the 'mystery woman seen running on CCTV' that police were trying to trace

did they all make statements following the crimes and did they have faith in the interpreter

were they given copies of any statements they made

do they have any photos on their phones which were taken that morning that could assist the case

did anything happen that concerned them at the beach party that was attended by approx 50 people prior to the crimes

where Hannah and David drunk

did anything lead them to think Hannah could have been drugged? did anyone other than their group buy her drinks

I refuse to believe that the friends have nothing that could assist finding justice for Hannah and David. Sickening!

@catsanddogs - you are absolutely correct. Why have these so-called "friends" remained so resolutely silent? I find it depressing. On the one hand I can understand them not wanting to come back to Thailand to testify as witnesses after the harassment Chris Ware suffered at the hands of the RTP and others, but I cannot believe they know absolutely nothing about what happened that night. They are witnesses, by the very nature of their being with Hannah and David that night, for God's sake! We are told that they all had to give statements to the British police on their return to the U.K., but like the Metropolitan Police report on the RTP investigation, those statements may never see the light of day, and certainly not at this trial. I understand the Defence team did appeal to these travelling companions to come forward but they were met with total silence. I also cannot believe that nobody heard anything while the murders were being carried out. The crime scene was just yards from the Ocean View resort. Surely there must have been other tourists in those rooms which overlook the rocks on Sairee beach who may have heard shouting and screaming? Yet no-one has come forward. It just doesn't make sense. Unfortunately it has become a despicable trait in the 21st century that people don't want to become involved when something like that occurs and will just look the other way. People are more interested in self-preservation than helping others and doing the right thing.

I think the only occasion these friends are likely to speak out will be at the inquests in the U.K. (the Coroner could demand it), but those could be years away. If this case goes to appeal I don't believe the inquests will be held until all the Thai court processes have been exhausted.

[WhiteTrash]

To me the hoe in question is a thick handled heavy duty tool, to use it as designed i.e lifting it a few inches then ploughing the soil under it is doable for the lightest of us, but to cause the damage we seen inflicted on the victim would need a overhead type action similar to swinging a sledgehammer and that takes prolonged strength and serious will

[catsanddogs]

There appears to be some 'breaking news' on Andy Hall's FB page from one hr ago but I cannot understand it! Anyone?

[IslandLover]

more news today but you will need to google this "Defence points to flaws in probe of Koh Tao murders"

Reuters Feed

Myanmar national Zaw Lin looks on as he arrives in a prison transport van outside Koh Samui court on the Thai resort island of Koh Samui on July 9, 2015. Photo: AFP Defence points to flaws in probe over Britons' Thai island murder Reuters | Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 Reuters Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 KOH SAMUI, Thailand - Lawyers defending two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for the Thai holiday island murders of two British backpackers sought on Wednesday to expose holes in a police investigation they maintain was botched and intended to frame the suspects.

http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/defence-points-flaws-probe-over-britons-thai-island-murder

From the above article, this is worthy of note:

The hearings are taking place on nearby Koh Samui, where the defence would present a statement from a British expert who has analysed surveillance camera footage being used as evidence.

The expert was contacted by Briton Andy Hall, a Thailand-based activist who specialises in protecting the rights of Myanmar labourers and exposing abuses. "We saw a lot of instances of police abuse and torture that were happening and a concern for us is that the police were just focusing on ways to nail the two defendants," Hall said outside the court. "We believe, from my investigation, that they blocked out so much of other evidence that could have been used ... simply to focus on the two accused," he said, referring to the police.

I don't care whether it is Andy Hall speaking these words, or Joe Bloggs, it is the plain and honest truth.

[Nigeone]

To me the hoe in question is a thick handled heavy duty tool, to use it as designed i.e lifting it a few inches then ploughing the soil under it is doable for the lightest of us, but to cause the damage we seen inflicted on the victim would need a overhead type action similar to swinging a sledgehammer and that takes prolonged strength and serious will

Trust me mate....the ones we had at our home were surprising light,certainly very much lighter than you would think..And sadly not a problem at all to wield around and over your head...and as I said the visuals of the hoe allegedly used are as near the same as the ones we had. Your right how they are used but if needed to be they easily can be swung without any effort....I would say they are less than half the weight of the Hoe I have here in my country. The castings in a Thai hoe are very slim and even the wooden handle is light and am always surprised they don't break the handles more often...I leave it at that and as I said I'm not trying to pick you up just explain what you can do easily with these hoes

[catsanddogs]

Maj Gen Pornchai said (Sept 17 last year) -

“The wounds were inflicted by a sharp, hard object... and (they were) hit hard with a rock.”

Initial reports suggested they had been killed with a blood-stained gardening tool found near the murder scene.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11103274/DNA-found-on-body-of-murdered-British-backpacker-in-Thailand-no-match-to-suspects.html

[WhiteTrash]

Fair dinkum, but I would say the wielder of the said item was accurate because I don't notice him missing left or right, you try chopping wood blocks for the first time, you'll miss a few

[catsanddogs]

Maj Gen Pornchai said (Sept 17 last year) -

“The wounds were inflicted by a sharp, hard object... and (they were) hit hard with a rock.”

Initial reports suggested they had been killed with a blood-stained gardening tool found near the murder scene.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11103274/DNA-found-on-body-of-murdered-British-backpacker-in-Thailand-no-match-to-suspects.html

No doubt Mon had a hand in those 'initial reports' while he was walking all over the crime scene and seemingly pointing things out to the police officers. The hoe was so widely publicised in the media - the police more than happy to show it from all angles to journalists. I find that very odd, especially considering the mystery woman seen on CCTV running at the time of the murders was not put out to the media, despite the police saying they were trying to trace her! Sharp hard object would seem to fit with David's wounds and a rock with Hannah's facial damage. If a rock was used at some point in the crimes it would have been simple to toss it into the sea where the water would wash away the blood stains and no amount of diving police would be able to identify it. But then maybe they were instructed not to find anything anyway and the media coverage of the diving police was just another charade.

[WhiteTrash]

Nige, trust me that was not done with a light weight tool, the indentations are only possible with severe strength or a heavy tool

[smedly]

I struggle to imagine what happened that night when I consider the last very important piece of information that we got from the hoe analysis : it is now sure that David and Hannah had it in their hands, so the reenactment and what was said in the confession is inaccurate.

I remember clearly also that David showed signs of defense, he fought valiantly for his life and the pictures also show multiple small wounds not consistent with a hoe, which by the way didn't have David's blood on. How can the hoe still be considered as the only murder weapon ? This makes the scenario described by the RTP invalid and they have now been asked to think about it...

But then how is it possible for two small men like the B2 to do this, if there was no element of surprise that could have given them the needed advantage, David was a healthy tall young man, there was struggle for sure from both Hannah and David.

There were more than just two persons involved I am quite certain about that and more than just a hoe was used.

It is really normal to ask the RTP to provide a credible scenario now, the one they have presented in court is not.

One year after, we are still at square one, wondering what really happened that night. That is the sad truth about it, amongst so many lies.

I agree that this thread is highly annoying (your previous post) there are two maybe three people posting here that should be ashamed of themselves, I would love to meet them face to face to "talk about it" but that will not happen.

Setting asside all the conversations from the rational and intelligent posters on here who know exactly where this is at and why lets hit the reset button for a moment and mention one thing -

In any normal police investigation into a murder - it starts at the last known place the victims were seen alive and yet the glaringly obvious during these proceedings is the complete absence of any reference to that place

[WhiteTrash]

I would have to say someone with experience in swinging a tool like that for a living, if she died in that position