Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[thailandchilli]

Again we hear a prolific poster hold onto the DNA issue, when there is no chain of custody, results produced faster than even experts have stated, why wasn't the person who conducted these tests able to provide documentation and a schedule of events that took place the moment the DNA was handed over to them?

What were the instructions given as to the priority of those samples, also pretty sure that it was claimed that the samples actually went to Singapore as Thailand didn't have the ability to produce fast results.

Who signed for the samples on receipt of them, and who signed for the results after they were complete?

Far too many discrepancies with regards to simple hearsay that DNA was actually submitted, without any signatures and a chain of custody, these examples are the figment of imaginations, discrepancies in both autopsies should have been enough to make someone go " wait a minute, what's going on here" but nope, the results are dismissed immediately out of hand, that's not an opinion, that's an agenda pure and simple.

It is impossible to tell what the current position about the status of the DNA evidence actually is from newspaper reports of statements by "spokesmen" who do not know anything about what DNA evidence is, or how it is gathered , or how it is interpreted, made to reporters who are even more ignorant, and who are usually translating very badly and inaccurately into English.

I would say objectively at present there is no way of telling what DNA evidence there is, how it has been presented in the case, and what the future status of any presentation is going to be. I do not trust social media accounts, and I do not trust newspapers except in as far as they are directly reporting what has been said in court, not at second hand, but because the reporter has been present in court, and understands the language.

I think I believe at the very minimum that the defence has engaged one of the best known forensic DNA experts in the world, Jane Taupin, and that she has not testified, although she is ready to. I cannot believe that this has been made up, as this person is too well known to be the subject of false rumours.

The explanation given for her lack of testimony by Andy Hall is that the report on which the DNA evidence was based has not been made available, so she cannot give testimony on it. This also seems unlikely to have been made up, as it would be too easy to find out and report that it isn't true. In addition I remember reading that when the police forensic witness was on the stand giving testimony it was reported that she said the police refuse to make the DNA report available, citing a Thai law that prevents private information on individuals being circulated (!). This may well be false reporting however.

Now the verifiable fact that the defence have a world expert on DNA ready to testify and she has not been able to seems to require a LOT of explanation. If the police will not make available the report on which their entire case is based, that tells you something fairly significant. I have always thought that, even if the Thai police have fabricated every other item of evidence out of an arrogant and stupid desire to make their case better, then if this DNA evidence is true, they are probably on a safe and justified conviction.

It now seems to me more and more likely that this DNA evidence either doesn't exist at all, or is so compromised and inadequate that it doesn't even prove identity. What possible reason could there be to hide the only evidence directly linking the accused to the crime?

Very difficult to argue with such an analysis, thanks again for your post, probably one of the most informative posters at this stage of the trial.

[BritTim]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

As final hearing accused testimony Koh Tao trial schedule 10/11 October, need time 4 closing statements. So judgement likely late Nov or Dec

Good news. I expected a longer adjournment.

[Fat Haggis]

There must be a very different trial going on, the real one, in the real world, as this is far from being the perfect watertight case that convinced the families enough for them to have released these statements stating that the accused had a very real case to answer to and that the evidence was overwhelming and convincing.

And oddly enough it was a particular group of posters who were pretty adamant that forum members also respected the parents wishes to stop discussing the case here and on other social networks, I actually feel sorry for the Millers and Wetheridges, as they have been completely misled, and continued to be misled.

The prosecution should have been ramming document after supporting document down the defences throat, but it's all boiling down now to nothing more than "hearsay" the very things the same group have been accusing posters here of listening to, the constant ignoring of the flaws in the investigation, dismissing evidence such as Hannah's clothing as nothing important just beggars belief.

I agree with Partington, I don't believe there was ever any DNA to begin with, the excuses from the RTP about lack of documentation due to funding has to be a complete joke, a system that's endemic with corruption cannot afford serious hardware such as external hard drives so that crucial documentation can be stored?

But hell, if it was pictures needed of protesting students, there's more accessories and pictures available than a professionally photographers portfolio!!!

And yet through all of this, I would say 98% of this forum simply do not believe the B2 are guilty of this horrendous crime, even though some initially were 50/50 how is it possible that such a high percentage always seem to be the "problem children" and threads get closed ?

I'm also at a loss here as anyone who has spent any length of time in the Kingdom also know how despised the RTP are by locals, and yet, avid supporters here who have spent time here just never seem to agree on what is clearly a piss poor investigation and a piss poor presentation for prosecution!!

[fab99]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

unfortunately, so far the policy has been to close the thread between sessions, trolling or no trolling, so I guess we don't have much time left to contribute.

Thanks to everybody for sharing useful info, it sure is nice to have a place like this to follow the trial and share views.

I guess we'll talk again in two weeks, until then, take care.

[Fat Haggis]

To further add, why was the lab technician who processed the DNA samples not a witness for the prosecution?

Going on the stand and explaining the whole process from the minute a sample is handed to them, processed through documentation, analysed and then the results printed off?

Without any supporting documentation it really is only hearsay that any such procedure in this case ever took place.

[glenmohr]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

Any of the more knowledgeable folk here got any suggestions as to why the prosecution get 13 days and the defense only 6 days??

[StealthEnergiser]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

unfortunately, so far the policy has been to close the thread between sessions, trolling or no trolling, so I guess we don't have much time left to contribute.

Thanks to everybody for sharing useful info, it sure is nice to have a place like this to follow the trial and share views.

I guess we'll talk again in two weeks, until then, take care.

I think the mods won't mind leaving it open if we can keep it civil not to argue with the poster just report them if they are baiting or trolling as chilli says it should work.

[AGareth2]

Is there any evidence that semen exists?

No

[thailandchilli]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

Any of the more knowledgeable folk here got any suggestions as to why the prosecution get 13 days and the defense only 6 days??

Not saying I'm knowledgeable but from what I gather it was the amount of witnesses, ie the prosecution submitted a list of 65 and the defense about 12 I think.

However the prosecution then in my opinion took advantage of that and took up all their allocated days + stealing a day from the defense and only producing less than half of the promised 65

[Fat Haggis]

I'd like to thank the mods for what must be a very difficult topic and thread to moderate and to control, they have done a pretty decent job, despite some criticism from myself.

[somo]

The argument seems to be that the system is biased against Burmese people therefore these men are innocent. It's not a conclusion that follows the premise, so let's see what the judge decides.

I am curious if the judge decides a not guilty verdict....will you actually do an about face and say whoops I guess I was wrong. Or just continue on and say the judge is a part of some conspiracy?

I have never resorted to the facile and self serving arguments of conspiracies, so no.

The judge will make a decision based on all the evidence presented by both sides, not just the one being very forcefully promoted here by people that have developed an emotional need to see the defendants set free.

The judge will have to present a summary of what did he based his decision on and that will be available for study, furthermore the trial (empty protestations to the contrary) has been carried in a fair manner towards the defendants, the judge has repeatedly accommodated various requests by the defense.

So unless there is something grossly out of order in the judges reasoning I don't have a problem with accepting a verdict either way.

The thing is that so far the prosecution has presented no evidence, zilch/nada, to back up their accusations. The police have rather mysteriously lost it or used it all up. What they "remember" of this evidence the defence has shown to be false so the police have been shown to be lying. As of now even you must agree that the judge can only come to one conclusion unless some amazing new evidence is pulled out of the prosecutions hat which seems unlikely. I am a little suprised that he not called a halt to these farcical proceedings already and released the pair on bail pending a possible appeal by the police.

[thailandchilli]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

unfortunately, so far the policy has been to close the thread between sessions, trolling or no trolling, so I guess we don't have much time left to contribute.

Thanks to everybody for sharing useful info, it sure is nice to have a place like this to follow the trial and share views.

I guess we'll talk again in two weeks, until then, take care.

I think the mods won't mind leaving it open if we can keep it civil not to argue with the poster just report them if they are baiting or trolling as chilli says it should work.

I agree and there's still news reports to come out from today's hearing along with plenty of useful debate among rational posters. I think its very important to keep things simmering

Edited September 25, 2015 by thailandchilli

[glenmohr]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

Any of the more knowledgeable folk here got any suggestions as to why the prosecution get 13 days and the defense only 6 days??

Not saying I'm knowledgeable but from what I gather it was the amount of witnesses, ie the prosecution submitted a list of 65 and the defense about 12 I think.

However the prosecution then in my opinion took advantage of that and took up all their allocated days + stealing a day from the defense and only producing less than half of the promised 65

WE have ruled that the above info qualifies as knowledgeable and thanks.

[glenmohr]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

Any of the more knowledgeable folk here got any suggestions as to why the prosecution get 13 days and the defense only 6 days??

Not saying I'm knowledgeable but from what I gather it was the amount of witnesses, ie the prosecution submitted a list of 65 and the defense about 12 I think.

However the prosecution then in my opinion took advantage of that and took up all their allocated days + stealing a day from the defense and only producing less than half of the promised 65

Given the amount and severity of the death threats being handed out on Koh Tao, I am really surprised the defense could get up to 12, good on them.

[Fat Haggis]

I couldn't help but read this little snippet

"I have never resorted to the facile and self serving arguments of conspiracies, so no."

But believing a Thai coroners autopsy report and the statements submitted by the RTP over discrepancies in an alleged rape, as opposed to the findings of a government coroner of the country of the deceased as " irrelevant " and dismissing them right off the bat....

Course you don't do conspiracies or entertain them in the slightest!!

[AGareth2]

the report was sent back several times

why did the police not add documented evidence regard rape and semen?

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Reuters - British backpackers murder trial extended in Thailand until 10/11 Oct, verdict delayed http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN0RP0U720150925?irpc=932 …

Edited September 25, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[Fat Haggis]

Pretty hard to submit evidence and documents for some thing that never happened

Which is odd as they seem to be able to do stuff like this any other time

[AGareth2]

So we have no B2 DNA on the weapon and no semen

How do you match something to something that does not exist?

[ffaarraanngg]

the report was sent back several times

why did the police not add documented evidence regard rape and semen?

Because there are none and they knew the defence were far more competent then they could ever dream of being.

Bent judge and a scribbled letter from someone with a white lab jacket in BKK has always been enough up until now.

[AGareth2]

"We have a match"

what a swan vesta?

[StealthEnergiser]

Again we hear a prolific poster hold onto the DNA issue, when there is no chain of custody, results produced faster than even experts have stated, why wasn't the person who conducted these tests able to provide documentation and a schedule of events that took place the moment the DNA was handed over to them?

What were the instructions given as to the priority of those samples, also pretty sure that it was claimed that the samples actually went to Singapore as Thailand didn't have the ability to produce fast results.

Who signed for the samples on receipt of them, and who signed for the results after they were complete?

Far too many discrepancies with regards to simple hearsay that DNA was actually submitted, without any signatures and a chain of custody, these examples are the figment of imaginations, discrepancies in both autopsies should have been enough to make someone go " wait a minute, what's going on here" but nope, the results are dismissed immediately out of hand, that's not an opinion, that's an agenda pure and simple.

It is impossible to tell what the current position about the status of the DNA evidence actually is from newspaper reports of statements by "spokesmen" who do not know anything about what DNA evidence is, or how it is gathered , or how it is interpreted, made to reporters who are even more ignorant, and who are usually translating very badly and inaccurately into English.

I would say objectively at present there is no way of telling what DNA evidence there is, how it has been presented in the case, and what the future status of any presentation is going to be. I do not trust social media accounts, and I do not trust newspapers except in as far as they are directly reporting what has been said in court, not at second hand, but because the reporter has been present in court, and understands the language.

I think I believe at the very minimum that the defence has engaged one of the best known forensic DNA experts in the world, Jane Taupin, and that she has not testified, although she is ready to. I cannot believe that this has been made up, as this person is too well known to be the subject of false rumours.

The explanation given for her lack of testimony by Andy Hall is that the report on which the DNA evidence was based has not been made available, so she cannot give testimony on it. This also seems unlikely to have been made up, as it would be too easy to find out and report that it isn't true. In addition I remember reading that when the police forensic witness was on the stand giving testimony it was reported that she said the police refuse to make the DNA report available, citing a Thai law that prevents private information on individuals being circulated (!). This may well be false reporting however.

Now the verifiable fact that the defence have a world expert on DNA ready to testify and she has not been able to seems to require a LOT of explanation. If the police will not make available the report on which their entire case is based, that tells you something fairly significant. I have always thought that, even if the Thai police have fabricated every other item of evidence out of an arrogant and stupid desire to make their case better, then if this DNA evidence is true, they are probably on a safe and justified conviction.

It now seems to me more and more likely that this DNA evidence either doesn't exist at all, or is so compromised and inadequate that it doesn't even prove identity. What possible reason could there be to hide the only evidence directly linking the accused to the crime?

A very good post perfectly explaining the reason why the police may not be handing over a report on DNA evidence is "they don't have anything to handover ." And I am sure the expert would have been very sure about this before taking it on.

Edited September 25, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[sambum]

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

unfortunately, so far the policy has been to close the thread between sessions, trolling or no trolling, so I guess we don't have much time left to contribute.

Thanks to everybody for sharing useful info, it sure is nice to have a place like this to follow the trial and share views.

I guess we'll talk again in two weeks, until then, take care.

I think the mods won't mind leaving it open if we can keep it civil not to argue with the poster just report them if they are baiting or trolling as chilli says it should work.

I agree and there's still news reports to come out from today's hearing along with plenty of useful debate among rational posters. I think its very important to keep things simmering

Yes indeed! And if in doubt about a post you have read, or one you are about to post, contact the Mods first to bring it to their attention for a decision.

[Jonmarleesco]

'Thai authorities insist DNA evidence proves their guilt.' This being the same DNA that doesn't match the weapon to the accused?
​

[StealthEnergiser]

So current state of play of some of the more recent revelations that have been reported I'm sure I've missed a few, links for all the below available for reasonable posters:

UK Coroner - No evidence of the rape of Hannah

UK Coroner No bite marks on Hannah's breast despite the Thai pathologist saying there was in their report which the UK coroner had a copy of.

Documents withheld from court showing the DNA chain of custody on DNA testing, rendering the expert witness with no means to testify on it.

Hannah's clothes not forensically tested and not presented in court or records of where they are?

Hannah's underwear not forensically tested

Hoe with no DNA of accused but ample of the victims from touch DNA traces which take a substantial amount of time to occur

Hair found clutched in Hannah's hand gone?

Clothes of victims found on beach not forensically tested

DNA retesting of cigarette butts not possible because they are not available

Torture testimony from the B2 as yet remain un-investigated yet confessions apparently still being used in court

This is not what any mentally stable person can deem to be a fair trial taking place with such discrepancies in evidence and testimony. There is more than enough reasonable doubt for a not guilty verdict and a complete re-haul of the Thai Judicial system!

the Autopsy report was deleted because "it is unverified" and "not an official translation" so that's understandable.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Samui court judges & lawyers discussed today Koh Tao case judgement will be sent to director general region 8 for checking prior to release

[stephenterry]

We've got another 2 days of b2 testimony. And this farce of a trial continue to the bitter end. And it beggars belief that it would take a month for the judges to reach a verdict. It is totally crazy. If the b2 are found guilty of the crimes I will despair of any justice ever in Thailand unless it's paid for.

[stephenterry]

Follow

45]

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Samui court judges & lawyers discussed today Koh Tao case judgement will be sent to director general region 8 for checking prior to release

In other words another suckling pig at the money trough. I don't trust any Thai official he's part of the establishment.

[stephenterry]

And what's he going to check? He's not been at the trial so knows sod all.

[fab99]

I think the mods won't mind leaving it open if we can keep it civil not to argue with the poster just report them if they are baiting or trolling as chilli says it should work.

I agree and there's still news reports to come out from today's hearing along with plenty of useful debate among rational posters. I think its very important to keep things simmering

Yes indeed! And if in doubt about a post you have read, or one you are about to post, contact the Mods first to bring it to their attention for a decision.

I agree with that, moderators are doing the best they can and all we can do to make this thread going is to make it easier to manage, if it is too much work for them to maintain, it will be closed.

One of my recent messages was actually edited by the admin, but I was about to do it myself, I realised the tone was not totally appropriate, I take that into acount now.