Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[Madaussie]

"At the end of the wooden part of the hoe where the blade is attached seems to be a metal bit that protrudes out the back? Or is it a hammer lying underneath the hoe?"

YES! On this particular photo, there is indeed, a hammer underneath the hoe!

It is positioned just in the opposite direction, with the wooden handle pointing to 11o'clock, touching the the green leaf on the top (the blunt end of a hammer on the left side)

Thank you RWA! STRIKE!

This is pretty significant, another weapon in the mix that has not been tested and gone missing.

Mind you, I'm sure we'll have a troll come along soon and say leave this to the capable RTP detectives

Well I am not a troll and you are wrong in your assumptions. Another angle shows what you think is a claw to be a piece of concrete.

[Madaussie]

Thank you RWA! STRIKE!

This is pretty significant, another weapon in the mix that has not been tested and gone missing.

Mind you, I'm sure we'll have a troll come along soon and say leave this to the capable RTP detectives

Jesus, we've all been looking at that bloody bloody hoe for so long with DNA questions and crime scene scenarios running round our frustrated heads that we never saw the damn hammer! What now?

A message to AH going now

Oh Dear...

Perhaps you have made a mistake..

[berybert]

I also don't see a hammer, unless the head and the handle are made from the same material.

[catsanddogs]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

[Madaussie]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

Shelve the Wine. Perhaps you've had to much already hey.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Well GB if you feel so strongly then let them know they need to abide by your criteria.

The Lady you need to speak is Jacqueline Lake. Below is the contact details for you (thought I would save you the hassle)

Please do let us know how you get on I am intrigued

Address: 69-75 Thorpe Rd, Norwich, Norfolk NR1 1UA, United Kingdom

Phone:+44 1603 663302

norfolk@coroner.norfolk.gov.uk.

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Community_and_living/Coroners/index.htm

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

Shelve the Wine. Perhaps you've had to much already hey.

No Hammer.jpg

Strange it down't look chipped like so many claim and where is no dog food laying around.

[Madaussie]

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Well GB if you feel so strongly then let them know they need to abide by your criteria.

The Lady you need to speak is Jacqueline Lake. Below is the contact details for you (thought I would save you the hassle)

Please do let us know how you get on I am intrigued

Address: 69-75 Thorpe Rd, Norwich, Norfolk NR1 1UA, United Kingdom

Phone:+44 1603 663302

norfolk@coroner.norfolk.gov.uk.

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Community_and_living/Coroners/index.htm

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

I take it you wont be contacting her then GB??

And I take it your saying her findings are worthless?

You'll find the Coroners reports contradict several things including the injuries both David and Hannah had suffered. You will remember first they said she was raped. Then they said she wasn't. Then they said she was raped in both lower passages. I think they where coving all their bases actually. Well that could be one of the contradictions. But who knows I am Mad Hey....

Ohhh I forgot that bit. They have been submitted as evidence into the court. Face saving at the moment for the RTP as they don't want them published maybe?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Madaussie

[thailandchilli]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

Shelve the Wine. Perhaps you've had to much already hey.

No Hammer.jpg

mmm yes a different perspective

[catsanddogs]

"At the end of the wooden part of the hoe where the blade is attached seems to be a metal bit that protrudes out the back? Or is it a hammer lying underneath the hoe?"

YES! On this particular photo, there is indeed, a hammer underneath the hoe!

It is positioned just in the opposite direction, with the wooden handle pointing to 11o'clock, touching the the green leaf on the top (the blunt end of a hammer on the left side)

Thank you RWA! STRIKE!

This is pretty significant, another weapon in the mix that has not been tested and gone missing.

Mind you, I'm sure we'll have a troll come along soon and say leave this to the capable RTP detectives

Well I am not a troll and you are wrong in your assumptions. Another angle shows what you think is a claw to be a piece of concrete.

Brit3.jpg

The piece of wood that is in that pic you posted (not the hoe handle) is not the same wood that is in the other pics. Sorry, but I continue to see a hammer in the pics attached to my original post.

[Madaussie]

The piece of wood that is in that pic you posted (not the hoe handle) is not the same wood that is in the other pics. Sorry, but I continue to see a hammer in the pics attached to my original post.

Repost the single picture. But I tell ya the red wines effected your vision.

[Nigeone]

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Well GB if you feel so strongly then let them know they need to abide by your criteria.

The Lady you need to speak is Jacqueline Lake. Below is the contact details for you (thought I would save you the hassle)

Please do let us know how you get on I am intrigued

Address: 69-75 Thorpe Rd, Norwich, Norfolk NR1 1UA, United Kingdom

Phone:+44 1603 663302

norfolk@coroner.norfolk.gov.uk.

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/Community_and_living/Coroners/index.htm

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

Oh dear dear me....but is totally reliant on information supplied and where from !! When the Prosecution and/or RTP show how they obtained and passed on that same DNA I will believe the findings if it's shown to be above reproach...They haven't done that yet and I wonder why?! As it must be so easy to do if everything is above board.

[minikev]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

Shelve the Wine. Perhaps you've had to much already hey.

No Hammer.jpg

mmm yes a different perspective

I also put the pic into photoshop and zoomed in. It did resemble a hammer head but the shaft has too clean edges. It looks concave like split bamboo looking from the inside. I don't think it's a hammer. The Hoe however has a corner missing in the pictures on the beach and after it was said to have been cleaned and replaced inside the bamboo fenced small garden.

[thailandchilli]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

[catsanddogs]

Fanbloodytastic T&C thanks! Second glass of wine now. x

Shelve the Wine. Perhaps you've had to much already hey.

No Hammer.jpg

mmm yes a different perspective

The piece of wood in the pic posted by MA looks like rough wood and appears as if it is lying in line with the hoe. In the other pics the wood appears at a different angle and appears to be wood that has been shaped to a softer finish. I'll shut up if I'm seeing things.

[Madaussie]

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

Oh dear dear me....but is totally reliant on information supplied and where from !! When the Prosecution and/or RTP show how they obtained and passed on that same DNA I will believe the findings if it's shown to be above reproach...They haven't done that yet and I wonder why?! As it must be so easy to do if everything is above board.

Both coroners have taken accurate DNA profiles. There is a record Nige. They carried out Forensic grade Autopsy's. That is extremely thorough. I think you will find Hannah was identified by her DNA to avoid the family having to suffer the horror of the ID.

[BritTim]

Do you know what is the likelihood of transfer DNA on wooden objects to be detected?

I did some research and from what I found it is less than 40% under ideal conditions: sterilized wood, 60 full seconds of firm grasping, no contaminants or further handling, straight into a sealed bag and to the lab for analysis.

What is the conclusion from all this? The often left out quote from the article that's been making the rounds here:

The prosecution asked Mr Waiyawuth if the third, incomplete, profile could belong to one of the suspects. He replied that only a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile.

The prosecution said: “So his participation cannot be ruled out.”

Mr Waiyawith replied: “No, but he cannot be included either.”

The results of the DNA analysis of the hoe can't rule out or incriminate the defendants, so in that regard the situation is the same as before the retesting.

So, based on your research, Hannah and David each firmly grasped the handle of the hoe for over 60 seconds, but the two diminutive Burmese kids overpowered them, and briefly then held the hoe to inflict wounds of various kinds sufficient to kill both victims. Do I have your version of events correct?

[catsanddogs]

The piece of wood that is in that pic you posted (not the hoe handle) is not the same wood that is in the other pics. Sorry, but I continue to see a hammer in the pics attached to my original post.

Repost the single picture. But I tell ya the red wines effected your vision.

White .

[catsanddogs]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

Watched it. That wood does not look like the more rounded piece of wood in the photos linked with my post.

[Baerboxer]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Koh tao defense team lawyers informed me I'm the first witness on the stand at Samui Court 2mrw for 17th day of Koh Tao murder trial.

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Likely to be covering a number issues including liaison with UK authorities/UK evidence, situation of Koh Tao migrant workers, CCTV cameras

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Quite a few other issues prepared to give testimony on but will depend on lawyers, time and appropriateness as to which issues are presented

Would it not have been more pertinent to have asked the friends of the victims, and McAnna to return as witnesses?

Surely the Judges would be interested in understanding as much about what happened that night as possible. Such things as who they interacted with, who was there, was there any altercations etc.

At no time does any of these friends appear to have been interviewed. Or if they have, it's not been reported. That would seemingly shed some light on events. The babbling McAnna has simply gone to ground.

No disrespect to Mr. Hall but the friends were there that night and he wasn't. Unless he has some bombshell information from the UK he's going to reveal.

It certainly seems that the police are not particularly interested in all the events leading up to the murders.

[thailandchilli]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

Watched it. That wood does not look like the more rounded piece of wood in the photos linked with my post.

Not saying your wrong, just for me I'm not convinced, the supposed hammer head has the same markings as the concrete.

[Madaussie]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

yes its not a hammer... C & D just wet herself I think in excitement...lol...

Focus on motives and who would have a motive... The B2 didn't really have a motive did they. They are on an island. A small island working to send money for the elderly parents. It doesn't fit in my mind.

What does fit though is an argument, some confrontation earlier and this was the subsequent outcome. We have all seen the horrific attacks meted out on foreigners by the Thai's upset at loosing face or on the drink and raging. The pack and gangs who think nothing of shooting people if they feel like it. There's a lot of drugs on Koh Tao. Its drugs drink and party time everyday. Robbery's, thefts, fights, shootings and rapes are common.

If this was about sexual motives then they could easily gotten sex for a few baht as we all know.

[catsanddogs]

Take a look at the clip at 5.10 it shows the RTP picking up this piece of wood

yes its not a hammer... C & D just wet herself I think in excitement...lol...

Focus on motives and who would have a motive... The B2 didn't really have a motive did they. They are on an island. A small island working to send money for the elderly parents. It doesn't fit in my mind.

What does fit though is an argument, some confrontation earlier and this was the subsequent outcome. We have all seen the horrific attacks meted out on foreigners by the Thai's upset at loosing face or on the drink and raging. The pack and gangs who think nothing of shooting people if they feel like it. There's a lot of drugs on Koh Tao. Its drugs drink and party time everyday. Robbery's, thefts, fights, shootings and rapes are common.

If this was about sexual motives then they could easily gotten sex for a few baht as we all know.

Yes I did and I will.

[Madaussie]

A wider angle for you..

Edited September 22, 2015 by Madaussie

[Nigeone]

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

Oh dear dear me....but is totally reliant on information supplied and where from !! When the Prosecution and/or RTP show how they obtained and passed on that same DNA I will believe the findings if it's shown to be above reproach...They haven't done that yet and I wonder why?! As it must be so easy to do if everything is above board.

Both coroners have taken accurate DNA profiles. There is a record Nige. They carried out Forensic grade Autopsy's. That is extremely thorough. I think you will find Hannah was identified by her DNA to avoid the family having to suffer the horror of the ID.

Sorry I think you misunderstood mate...I'm referring to the prosecutors DNA that doesn't seem to have made a appearance yet! I have know doubt about the authenticity of UK DNA collection etc. Goldbuggy was basing his comments on the defense discrediting the RTP DNA I thought...if I'm wrong about what he was saying so be it lol...not saying sorry

[BritTim]

the scene is looking different

No, it's exactly the same as before; the prosecution never claimed DNA from the defendants was found on the hoe. The only thing that has come from the independent testing of it is that it was, indeed, the murder weapon; so nothing new.

Meanwhile the actual DNA evidence the prosecution is basing their case on is being contested only indirectly by trying to discredit the process that yielded the results, instead of the actual results themselves; which I don't think carries much weight because it's not possible to by mistake or accident arrive at two DNA profiles matching the defendants.

The only thing that would produce a match is a deliberate faking of the results after the two defendants were arrested, and until they can provide any sort of evidence for such thing, IMO, the DNA evidence still stands.

I agree AleG or otherwise the Defense wouldn't be spending so much time and effort by trying to discredit this.

What I found most interesting about the latest news, is where did the Defense get Hannah's and David's DNA from, and to say it was n the Garden Hoe? Remember everyone saying that what the Police had was all corrupt, and tainted, and the replica was no damned good? For the 20th time?

If this came from the Forensics Lab in the UK, I would think he/she would have had to be their to testify to this, and show some proof of control and custody, since it is DNA. Or does this only apply to the Prosecution and the Defense can say anything they want and be taken as the gospel truth?

GB the problem with Aleg semen match , is that all we have is a statement to say it is a match. There is no chain of custody , the forensic officer taking the sample did not sign for it and could not account for an annotation/mark on the evidence bag. Documentation has been crossed out and been hand amended The guy who signed for all the mass dna testing on the island was not present.

Not to mention that the semen sample itself was mysteriously all used up, when DNA testing requires only a minuscule amount, leaving only degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process. The prosecution witnesses did a pretty good job of trying to confuse the issue about what was still available, but the truth (in this respect) cannot be hidden. I am pretty sure there will be testimony before the week is out that totally exhausting a semen sample taken from Hannah is not credible.

[catsanddogs]

A wider angle for you..

Hannah-Witheridge-FB-v2-hoe-web.jpg

Thanks. But so you see the sharp edges/angles on that piece of wood that was lying there and the police picked up? And compare that to the other photos where the wood appears to have been rounded at the edges? And the angle that the wood is lying is different on the different pics. Makes me wonder why the police were happy to have that little bit of investigating filmed?

[BritTim]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

Sigh! You keep repeating this, and I need to keep correcting what may mislead the casual reader. The RTP did not offer independent testing of the semen sample. They claimed (unconvincingly) that it was "all used up". They offered degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process that cannot be shown with confidence to have any relationship to any original semen sample.

[thailandchilli]

A wider angle for you..

Hannah-Witheridge-FB-v2-hoe-web.jpg

Thanks. But so you see the sharp edges/angles on that piece of wood that was lying there and the police picked up? And compare that to the other photos where the wood appears to have been rounded at the edges? And the angle that the wood is lying is different on the different pics. Makes me wonder why the police were happy to have that little bit of investigating filmed?

Shows just how incompetent they were to be honest. That piece of wood he picked up, the blooding end of the hoe had previously been resting on it and it could well have contained residue blood from the hoe that should have been tested. But then that would be to obvious, along with disregarding testing all the blood drenched sand that could have contained DNA other than the victims

[JoopJoop]

Is it possible for the defense to call the original investigating lead officer to account.

That initial lead officer was then sent to a silent post in BKK preceding the incompetent and lying Somyot's takeover?

I'm aware he was instructed to silence yet think his initial investigation may just implicate or provide credible information to the case.

I honestly fear a huge miscarriage of justice and this case to fade in several years. I'll be full of rage should it happen leading to my inevitable exit from this country.

Edited September 22, 2015 by JoopJoop