Papa Francis -- Who is he to judge? More anti-gay than we thought.

[Jingthing]

Note: Accidentally posted in Pattaya forum. On request to MOVE to gay forum.

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Papa Francis seemed to show his true, and much more anti-gay, colors on his recent historic visit to the USA.

What a shame for GLBT Catholics.

He completely snubbed American gay Catholics but met instead with the Kentucky bigot lady. Dreadful.

"I fear that this meeting and claims that the Pope told Ms. Davis to 'stand strong' will embolden the many US bishops and others who continue to try to turn back support for LGBT people," wrote Duddy-Burke of DignityUSA. "It will make even more of us feel like the Pope’s message of mercy and love was not meant for LGBT people and families. It points again to the deep divide between Catholics who affirm and support their LGBT family members and friends, and the hierarchy, which is tragically out of touch."

http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/9/30/lgbt-catholic-groups-disappointed-fearful-after-pope-francis-met-kim-davis

Edited September 30, 2015 by Jingthing

[KittenKong]

I read this and thought the Pope was coming to Pattaya.

I'm so disappointed.

[Jingthing]

I read this and thought the Pope was coming to Pattaya.

I'm so disappointed.

Another man in a frock on beach road ... wouldn't raise any eyebrows.

[JakeSully]

He's not exactly my type but I do like the message on climate change since we all live under 1 house and burning charcoal indoors is a bad idea.

My type is more the type with large snakes in their pants.

Edited September 30, 2015 by JakeSully

[lostinisaan]

Is it true that the POPE's pregnant?

[isanbirder]

First, the Pope does not organise his itinerary. That was done by Archbishop Chaput of Boston. The Pope does change the itinerary sometimes, but always, it seems, in favour of meeting poor people, children, and disadvantaged groups.

His themes for the visit were mainly climate change, immigration, and freedom of religion. He met the Kentucky woman in connection with the last aim (a mistake in my view).

Meeting the LGBT group of dissident Catholics would have caused a storm in the media.... and that precisely was what he did not want because it would have deflected attention from his main themes. (I would be a member of the dissident group)

The Pope is not a dictator; he is primus inter pares. In the USA he had to tread a fine line between the conservatism of the American bishops and his own main concerns, which are always pastoral rather than doctrinal.

Edited October 1, 2015 by isanbirder

[Jingthing]

Oh please. Stop defending him. He referred to gays as a lifestyle and irresponsible. Nobody made him say that. Face facts. He isn't as gay tolerant as people thought before.

Not Catholic but yes he came to impact more than Catholics. That is obvious.

So criticizing him is not off limits to non-Catholics.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Is it true that the POPE's pregnant?

I wonder how much weight he gained.

[Robroona]

Oh please. Stop defending him. He referred to gays as a lifestyle and irresponsible. Nobody made him say that. Face facts. He isn't as gay tolerant as people thought before.

Not Catholic but yes he came to impact more than Catholics. That is obvious.

So criticizing him is not off limits to non-Catholics.

Can I criticise you for criticising him? Would that also upset you?

I am a non Catholic but my opinions are broadly his. You might argue with my opinion but I'm sure you wouldn't try to censor it.

If he opened up a restaurant near you,and arrived every day at work by baht bus, then I would love to see your thoughts on the matter, because you are the resident expert on both subjects.

But he only let us know what he thought, and I'm sorry if he pissed you off.

[isanbirder]

Oh please. Stop defending him. He referred to gays as a lifestyle and irresponsible. Nobody made him say that. Face facts. He isn't as gay tolerant as people thought before.

Not Catholic but yes he came to impact more than Catholics. That is obvious.

So criticizing him is not off limits to non-Catholics.

No, JT, criticising him is not off-limits.... nor is defending him.

Since my last post, I've read a bit more about the Davis affair, and the whole series of incidents strikes me as very odd indeed.

Davis refused to marry a gay couple. She could have been diplomatically ill, or got one of her deputies to do it, but she stuck her neck out, and spent five days in jail. She thereby became a public figure. So far, so good.

She then decided to go to New York (or wherever the Pope was) with her lawyer (strange?) and got smuggled in to see the Pope (we don't know whether he wanted to see her, or whether it was wished on him). Nobody knew anything about it until her lawyer (again) announced the meeting to the Press.

Who orchestrated all this? The Pope's visit was very high profile, and I would have thought he was too politically shrewd to connive at a private meeting which would embarrass his hosts, and which was bound to leak out.

All very strange.

Oh, by the way, I don't think he's particularly gay-tolerant.... he persists in thinking about us, and everyone else, as people, not as members of a particular group.

[Jingthing]

Papa commented on the plane out of his support for the bigot lady. The problem is the bigot lady saga is one of the top very divisive US current news stories. She is not s religious functionary. This is about separation of church and state. Popey has inserted his Argie Bargie self into US matters supporting Christian theocracy backed by the imaginary power of the papacy. He has dirtied the message of his entire trip.

[dennis123]

A shame for the LGBT catholics? It's a shame they are catholic.

[Jingthing]

A shame for the LGBT catholics? It's a shame they are catholic.

Probably born that way ...

[isanbirder]

Papa commented on the plane out of his support for the bigot lady. The problem is the bigot lady saga is one of the top very divisive US current news stories. She is not s religious functionary. This is about separation of church and state. Popey has inserted his Argie Bargie self into US matters supporting Christian theocracy backed by the imaginary power of the papacy. He has dirtied the message of his entire trip.

As I said above, I think it was a mistake. But you don't try to answer my two main questions:-

Why bring the lawyer with her?

and

Why all the secrecy? There are plenty of people who support Davis (or the issue wouldn't be divisive).

[Jingthing]

How do I know why she brought the lawyer with her? I don't get your obsession with that. It seems totally off topic to the fact that Papa met with her and showed support for her. You do realize the bigot lady continues to push absurd legal cases in the U.S. to support her anti-gay discrimination? Maybe they were working on a case. Maybe she's such a moron that she needs a lawyer to go to the toilet, much less see the Pope. Who cares?

Why the secrecy? Figure it out. He didn't want it leaked during the trip. DUH!

If it HAD leaked during the trip, there would have been gay activist PROTESTS against "his holiness" ... wouldn't want that to spoil the optics, would we? If there wasn't time to organize protests, it would have been the lead story in his trip, drowning out all the other stuff he said and did ... some of which obviously was very good. Help the poor ... what's not to love about that?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[RabC]

I guess the OP would feel different if he was a Rabbi? I also find your term Pappa quite derogatory each to their own and live and let live, or those without sin cast the first stone

Edited October 1, 2015 by RabC

[Jingthing]

I guess the OP would feel different if he was a Rabbi? I also find your term Pappa quite derogatory each to their own and live and let live, or those without sin cast the first stone

Jews do not have a Pope so your comparison is absurd. It's obvious Papa F and all modern Papas is presenting himself as a global political leader of morality. As an American I say hands off our secular laws. None of his bloody business.

I could I would oppose also any religious leader American or otherwise who shows support to the bigot lady.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[RabC]

I guess the OP would feel different if he was a Rabbi? I also find your term Pappa quite derogatory each to their own and live and let live, or those without sin cast the first stone

Jews do not have a Pope so your comparison is absurd. It's obvious Papa F and all modern Papas is presenting himself as a global political leader of morality. As an American I say hands off our secular laws. None of his bloody business.

I could I would oppose also any religious leader American or otherwise who shows support to the bigot lady.

And still you insist on the derogatory name, suppose I was to use other derogatory names on this forum I would be banned. So a Guy in a White Cassock disagrees with what YOU believe, that's the real world Dorothy move on nothing to see here, if you were a Catholic then your comments may be worthy of attention but you aint so butt out..

[NickJ]

As Popes go he does seem to be a decent one. I think I will start playing Fr. Guido Sarduccis game again......Finda the Pope inna the Pizza.

[Jingthing]

Papa for pope is not derogatory.

My name is not Dorothy and it's clear R is no friend of Dorothy. 3 snaps!

I have every right to diss Papa F on this matter. He has inserted himself into American politics in ways of impact to all Americans. The bigot lady isn't Catholic either nor is her good buddy Mike Huckabee.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

As Popes go he does seem to be a decent one. I think I will start playing Fr. Guido Sarduccis game again......Finda the Pope inna the Pizza.

Yes as Papas go he is a good one I do agree. But by supporting the bigot lady the way he has considering she has become a major symbol for the anti-gay American right wing as we head into presidential election season ... totally open to severe criticism. Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[Mojomor]

It seems to me that people are missing the Pope's message. The word catholic is an old word, and actually means universal. The Pope is saying, that we are all God's people, and there is a place for everybody, in the universal church. Whether a person is gay or not, or has strong anti - gay views, is beside the point.

Note, he also visited a prison. How often do we see politicians visiting prisons?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I've only followed this story a bit...

I read where the city clerk reactionary and her attorney were saying what the Pope supposedly told them. The Vatican has confirmed the meeting, but not commented on what was said or discussed. From the NYT yesterday:

Vatican officials initially would not confirm that the meeting occurred, finally doing so on Wednesday afternoon, while refusing to discuss any details.

If the Pope did side with them on this issue, I think it's a very unfortunate choice. As noted, they aren't even Catholics. But more to the point, in a world where there's all varieties of unarguable atrocities occurring on a regular basis, you'd think a Pope might have decided to spend his spiritual capital on bigger, life and death-type issues.

If he wants to take a stand for religious freedom, how about the persecution of the Rohingya Muslims, or countries where Catholics are persecuted for practicing their faith...

Edited October 1, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jingthing]

It seems to me that people are missing the Pope's message. The word catholic is an old word, and actually means universal. The Pope is saying, that we are all God's people, and there is a place for everybody, in the universal church. Whether a person is gay or not, or has strong anti - gay views, is beside the point.

Note, he also visited a prison. How often do we see politicians visiting prisons?

Yes, we know. We know.

Gay people are indeed welcome in the Catholic church but they are not welcome to ever express their sexuality physically including within marriage. Thanks a bunch!

Your post is really silly. The Pope explicitly did not meet with any GLBT Catholic groups but did explicitly support the not Catholic anti-gay bigot lady. We're not stupid. Message received.

Papa F can't undo what he did on this trip.

But it does look like he has undone the good will tone that his famous "Who am I to judge" comment seemed to promise. Back to the same old, same old, anti-gay message.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[JakeSully]

Oh please. Stop defending him. He referred to gays as a lifestyle and irresponsible. Nobody made him say that. Face facts. He isn't as gay tolerant as people thought before.

Not Catholic but yes he came to impact more than Catholics. That is obvious.

So criticizing him is not off limits to non-Catholics.

You know in Argentina where he's from.. he went to war with the President and their Parliament for denying rights of lbgt to marry. Yet Argentina as a conservative and catholic nation still decided on marriage equality.

He may have turned a new leaf as a pope but that part of him remains in him.

[Jingthing]

Yes I know and he was also suspiciously closer than comfort to the murderous fascist Argie dictatorship when they were in power. No, he can't be labeled left wing or right wing but he is a Catholic Pope.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Do Americans have freedom of conscience? This is after all what the whole Davis case is about.

I won't insist on the lawyer, JT, though I still think it's weird.

Secrecy..... on a high-profile trip like this, it's just not possible for the Pope to meet someone secretly. Far too much media attention. If anyone knows this, he should. That's why I suggested that he may not have wanted to meet Davis, but that it was wished on him by one of his entourage. I have no justification for this, but the Vatican denials/ignorance of the meeting suggest that something odd was going on. Maybe we shall learn more later.

I fully agree with you, JT, that the incident damages the effect of his whole visit to the US..... and this is why I think we're not being told the full story.

[Jingthing]

The meeting has been confirmed by the Vatican. It DID happen.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

The meeting has been confirmed by the Vatican. It DID happen.

I know, but the initial Vatican reports said "it has been reported that...."., and the usually omniscient Fr. Lombardi didn't seem to know about it.

[Jingthing]

The damage has been done.