Israeli right-wingers call for government crackdown on Palestinian violence

[Jingthing]

Not aware anyone around these can trace family ancestry and home ownership a 1000 years back.

Zionist Jews who colonized Palestine displacing the resident population seemed to have no trouble in doing so.

As usual,Morch, you sit on the fence, just quote this side, that side, and conclude it's all a very difficult complex questiom. Lets leave it in the too hard basket for now. I think after 48 years of occupation and negotiations young Palestinians are venting their frustrations since there doesn't seem to be any hope for the future for them.

I would be very interested to hear what you think ought to happen to the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank

1....two state solution based on the 67 borders

2... one state solution with Palestinians as equal citizens

3... one state solution with Palestinian as resident aliens (apartheid)

4... one state solution with Palestinians ethnically cleansed to Jordan and Egypt.

IMO I think 1. and 2. are the only viable solutions for a permanent peace. But perhaps you have some other ideas...some sort of confederation of 2 states maybe.

I would very much like to know what you think would be a peaceful resolution of the conflict as well as some of the main stumbling blocks... Jerusalem the biggest I suppose.

You have of course forgotten the solution that is being proposed pretty universally by the Islamists: kill ALL the Jews. That's what they want.

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution) and Hamas are hated by most Palestinians. They are corrupt, take most of the money sent by the UNO not for building as new infrastructure but for preparing to annihilate Israel.

Quote: "For further proof of the religious intolerance lets look at Hamas’s Charter and what Mahmoud Abbas said to the UN in his speech for a Palestinian State. Hamas’s stated goal is to wipe Israel and its Jews off the map, just like Iran wants to do… Abbas wants the State of Palestine to be “Jew free”. From http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_un_anti_israel_bias.php

There is no solution as long as Palestinians are brought up in an atmosphere of hate and blaming the Jews for everything. If and when Palestine does finish with Israel, they will turn around after 20 years of ruining what was Israel and start to look for new scape goats.

Pretty much, yes.

The Culture of Hate:

[dexterm]

Not aware anyone around these can trace family ancestry and home ownership a 1000 years back.

Zionist Jews who colonized Palestine displacing the resident population seemed to have no trouble in doing so.

As usual,Morch, you sit on the fence, just quote this side, that side, and conclude it's all a very difficult complex questiom. Lets leave it in the too hard basket for now. I think after 48 years of occupation and negotiations young Palestinians are venting their frustrations since there doesn't seem to be any hope for the future for them.

I would be very interested to hear what you think ought to happen to the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank

1....two state solution based on the 67 borders

2... one state solution with Palestinians as equal citizens

3... one state solution with Palestinian as resident aliens (apartheid)

4... one state solution with Palestinians ethnically cleansed to Jordan and Egypt.

IMO I think 1. and 2. are the only viable solutions for a permanent peace. But perhaps you have some other ideas...some sort of confederation of 2 states maybe.

I would very much like to know what you think would be a peaceful resolution of the conflict as well as some of the main stumbling blocks... Jerusalem the biggest I suppose.

You have of course forgotten the solution that is being proposed pretty universally by the Islamists: kill ALL the Jews. That's what they want.

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution) and Hamas are hated by most Palestinians. They are corrupt, take most of the money sent by the UNO not for building as new infrastructure but for preparing to annihilate Israel.

Quote: "For further proof of the religious intolerance lets look at Hamas’s Charter and what Mahmoud Abbas said to the UN in his speech for a Palestinian State. Hamas’s stated goal is to wipe Israel and its Jews off the map, just like Iran wants to do… Abbas wants the State of Palestine to be “Jew free”. From http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_un_anti_israel_bias.php

There is no solution as long as Palestinians are brought up in an atmosphere of hate and blaming the Jews for everything. If and when Palestine does finish with Israel, they will turn around after 20 years of ruining what was Israel and start to look for new scape goats.

Constructive responses please.

Yours is simply hate filled rambling vitriol.

Would love to respond to your old chestnuts and misinformation, but I fear we would be drifting off topic. Another thread another time maybe.

[ggold]

What this if you are interested in peace loving Arabs!

https://youtu.be/y4h2q33BqhM

I see post 39 has it up on TV.

Edited October 9, 2015 by ggold

[Morch]

Sorry, thread full.

Morch, I apologize for not recalling your outline last year of a 2 state solution.

The other link you quote was only posted today. I must have overlooked it because the poster called me an anti semite, as do you..please do not do so.

I make no apologies for pointing out the evil committed by the IDF in recent weeks such as the shooting in the back by an IDF colonel of a stone throwing teenager running away after he cracked his windscreen and he and his fully armed soldiers "felt their lives were in danger!"...the new carte blanche get out of jail card for the iDF, or, as you euphemistically call it, "a new addendum" to existing regulations. There is more background to the present unrest as you well know. B'Tselem produce a comprehensive list of all Palestinians killed by the IDF so far this year. And that is not counting the daily thuggery of Jewish squatter price tag terrorists..no arrests or parents homes demolished there I notice.

Quote

Everything is justified by placing the responsibility with the other side, nothing to be conceded.

Precisely. That is because Israel and the IDF do bear the responsibility. They are the ones occupying 4.5 million Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza. Why should the Palestinians continue co-operating with the invader when they have been stalling serious peace negotiations for the last 48 years. Israel is the one with all the power. Netanyahu and his cabinet could put a dampener on all this violence tomorrow by announcing a moratorium on Jewish visits to Al Aqsa until things calm down, and a moratorium on settlement building as a goodwill gesture to get the peace talks rolling again....what have they got to lose..but a few surveyors pegs. Instead of that some of his ministers want to defy his ban, visit Haram al Sharif and stir up more trouble. Just as Sharon did 15 years ago in order to successfully derail any peace process.

It is this intransigence that makes me distrustful of Netanyahu and what he and his cabinet plan next. I followed all his lies in the conflict last year. He is very much a Janus.

However you try to spin, the quoted outline was not the first or the last time I expressed support for a two-state solution on this forum. As for the second quote, it is an easy matter to check the posting history of a member (hint: not a first as well).

If you do not wish to be called anti-Semite perhaps you ought to drop the "blood lust" blood libel angle (which is what the poster was alluding to). Or does calling a spade a spade work only in one direction? (Usual Suspects - for the love of Christ, let's pretend that the OFF TOPIC antisemitism definition was rehashed, we all been there done that).

You were not asked to apologize for anything. It was simply noted that "pointing out" exclusively at one side of the conflict, while absolving, justifying and turning a blind eye to any wrongs perpetrated by the other is not a constructive, nor realistic, approach. And yes, it does cut both ways, of course.

I called the recent provisions approved by the Israeli government an "addendum" because that is what they are - an addition to existing regulations. The OTT description provided is rejected, both as factually incorrect, and as unnecessarily inflammatory. From an operational point of view, simply increasing the use of previous means and regulations did not prove itself as effective. As posted on another topic, I have my doubts that any of it would make a dent in the volume of rock throwing incidents, and no doubts that it will hurt Israel's international image. There is always "more background" to any "present unrest" in this lengthy, ongoing conflict, and it is almost never one-sided.

There was no claim made that Israel bears no responsibility, quite the opposite. This does not entail that the Palestinians bear no responsibility whatsoever for their predicament, as the post above suggests. There were known junctions in history when better decisions could have been taken by the Palestinians, There are better ways to achieve their goals than through violence.

Israel is more powerful than the Palestinians, in economic and military terms, less so when international public opinion is concerned. As history shows, there are ways to resist and drive away an occupying force under such conditions, without violence being the main core ingredient of the struggle.

Not really sure which cooperation between Israel and the Palestinians is referred to - closing shop and cutting off all cooperation is a most probably an empty proposition. At least no level headed leader on the Palestinian side suggested it for real. It is very loaded question within Palestinian society - the popular sentiment runs against the PA (corruption and political impotence issues often cited), but there are also realistic fears its dissolution will lead to anarchy. The prospect of having either Hamas or the IDF back in full control does not provide a better alternative. Considering Israel's situation vs. Gaza, a unilateral disengagement may sound like a tempting course of action for some, but in effect it just trades older problems for new ones.

Israel stalling negotiations for 48 years is a figment of your imagination. There were no serious peace overtures immediately after the 1967 war. For those with a selective memory disorder (as above) - the West Bank was annexed by Jordan at the time, while the Gaza strip was de-facto so, by Egypt. The Palestinians had no meaningful say in negotiations since 1947. This was not Israel's doing, but a combination of bad choices by the Palestinians and Arab nations meddling.

The Israeli government made announcements and took certain steps that are supposed to defuse some of the tension, so did Abbas. At the same time, both leaders continue to say other things when addressing supporters. This is pretty much the norm. No one expects goodwill or sincerity. Regardless - would silence be better? It is what it is, Wishing for epiphanies or magic solutions is futile. As for right wing ministers and politicians threatening to defy the ban, they might, but it wouldn't be original by now - one of the Arab MK of the Joint List already tried it earlier today. There is ongoing friction between Netanyahu and certain coalition partners, so fiery statements should be taken within this context as well.

The irony of you bringing up intransigence (with respect to my main argument on this topic) is precious. But be that as it may, claiming intransigence with regard to one side while implying acquiescence of the other is simplistic. Netanyahu is a known commodity. No one claims he is honest or willing. But when push comes to shove he doesn't quite have it in him to go all out. Not when it comes to aggression and not when it comes to peace. Arafat was somewhat similar on that front.

[Morch]

Not aware anyone around these can trace family ancestry and home ownership a 1000 years back.

Zionist Jews who colonized Palestine displacing the resident population seemed to have no trouble in doing so.

As usual,Morch, you sit on the fence, just quote this side, that side, and conclude it's all a very difficult complex questiom. Lets leave it in the too hard basket for now. I think after 48 years of occupation and negotiations young Palestinians are venting their frustrations since there doesn't seem to be any hope for the future for them.

I would be very interested to hear what you think ought to happen to the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank

1....two state solution based on the 67 borders

2... one state solution with Palestinians as equal citizens

3... one state solution with Palestinian as resident aliens (apartheid)

4... one state solution with Palestinians ethnically cleansed to Jordan and Egypt.

IMO I think 1. and 2. are the only viable solutions for a permanent peace. But perhaps you have some other ideas...some sort of confederation of 2 states maybe.

I would very much like to know what you think would be a peaceful resolution of the conflict as well as some of the main stumbling blocks... Jerusalem the biggest I suppose.

You have of course forgotten the solution that is being proposed pretty universally by the Islamists: kill ALL the Jews. That's what they want.

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution) and Hamas are hated by most Palestinians. They are corrupt, take most of the money sent by the UNO not for building as new infrastructure but for preparing to annihilate Israel.

Quote: "For further proof of the religious intolerance lets look at Hamas’s Charter and what Mahmoud Abbas said to the UN in his speech for a Palestinian State. Hamas’s stated goal is to wipe Israel and its Jews off the map, just like Iran wants to do… Abbas wants the State of Palestine to be “Jew free”. From http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_un_anti_israel_bias.php

There is no solution as long as Palestinians are brought up in an atmosphere of hate and blaming the Jews for everything. If and when Palestine does finish with Israel, they will turn around after 20 years of ruining what was Israel and start to look for new scape goats.

Constructive responses please.

Yours is simply hate filled rambling vitriol.

Would love to respond to your old chestnuts and misinformation, but I fear we would be drifting off topic. Another thread another time maybe.

How is that response so very different from your own posts and posting style?

Should the extensive use of "blood lust", among other negative hyperbolic descriptions, be considered....what? Constructive? Conciliatory?

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

Top slogans on any half decent demonstration proclaim it. It is a common feature of many Hamas speeches in Arabic. Certain choice mosques are known for it.

A wee bit of honesty and integrity accepting some of the unpleasant sides of side you support would be appreciated.

[dexterm]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

Edited October 9, 2015 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

The people of Israel will get through this wave of Palestinian terrorist attacks just as they have weathered them in the past. Right wing, middle wing, left wing, Buffalo chicken wing ...

TEL AVIV AND JERUSALEM
It’s been a tense and tragic few weeks here in Israel, as a wave of Palestinian terrorism — stabbings and shootings, as well as boulders and Molotov cocktails hurled at passing cars — hit Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria, and on Wednesday, began to spread around the country, making every Jew in Israel a potential target and leaving casualties in its wake.
...
At the same time, Israelis are nothing if not defiant. I’ll be damned if a bunch of anti-Semites keep me from going to work, or to pray at the Western Wall, or to the movies or anywhere else. Allowing my life to be seriously disrupted would be, as the cliché goes, letting the terrorists win.

http://nypost.com/2015/10/08/in-israel-were-defying-terror-by-living-our-lives/

Edited October 9, 2015 by Jingthing

[cooked]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

[Jingthing]

Obama administration belatedly has termed the recent Palestinian wave of terrorism against Jews as TERRORISM.

Better late than never.

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration characterizes the recent wave of violence sweeping Israel as "terrorism," a US official told The Jerusalem Post on Friday.

A State Department official had previously told the Postthe administration would refrain from using the term pending a full investigation of the attacks. But the tempo of violence only increased in recent days, with over fifteen attempted or successful stabbings and shootings of Israelis by Palestinians across the country and throughout the West Bank.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Violent-wave-sweeping-Israel-is-terrorism-US-says-421461

To state the obvious:

The chances of peace talks resuming before US President Barack Obama's term ends appear slim.

[Jingthing]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

If there is even one Jew in Gaza, I'm sure he's deep deep in the closet.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

There is a huge moral difference between a violent group wanting liberation from oppression, and a group wanting to oppress by violence.

Netanyahu is plainly trying (feebly) to use the phrase that is often accurately used against Israel. Evicting Jews from stolen land is hardly "ethnic cleansing". Evicting Palestinians so as to steal the land, is.

[cooked]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

There is a huge moral difference between a violent group wanting liberation from oppression, and a group wanting to oppress by violence.

Netanyahu is plainly trying (feebly) to use the phrase that is often accurately used against Israel. Evicting Jews from stolen land is hardly "ethnic cleansing". Evicting Palestinians so as to steal the land, is.

True. So when are the Palestinians going to liberate themselves from Hamas?

The Jews were on the land legally allotted to them by the UN when they were attacked on all sides by Arabs who told Arabs in the war zone to flee, it would all be over in a few days. They also hysterically called for the killing of all Jews. I have been in the Golan heights, Israel would be crazy to give that back. War initiated by the Arabs resulted in them losing territory. Israel gave the Sinai back and evacuated Jewish settlements in Gaza. Were the Arabs content? No. They are still screaming for the death of all Jews and total war.

Israel is not oppressing by violence, it is fighting for its life.

By the way, generally, I don't like Israelis.

[Seastallion]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

There is a huge moral difference between a violent group wanting liberation from oppression, and a group wanting to oppress by violence.

Netanyahu is plainly trying (feebly) to use the phrase that is often accurately used against Israel. Evicting Jews from stolen land is hardly "ethnic cleansing". Evicting Palestinians so as to steal the land, is.

True. So when are the Palestinians going to liberate themselves from Hamas?

The Jews were on the land legally allotted to them by the UN when they were attacked on all sides by Arabs who told Arabs in the war zone to flee, it would all be over in a few days. They also hysterically called for the killing of all Jews. I have been in the Golan heights, Israel would be crazy to give that back. War initiated by the Arabs resulted in them losing territory. Israel gave the Sinai back and evacuated Jewish settlements in Gaza. Were the Arabs content? No. They are still screaming for the death of all Jews and total war.

Israel is not oppressing by violence, it is fighting for its life.

By the way, generally, I don't like Israelis.

" Israel gave the Sinai back and evacuated Jewish settlements in Gaza"

How gracious of them. A useless desert and one of the most densely populated places on earth.

Meanwhile, wherever there is a good water source is taken over. Every month, new settlers lay down foundations.

How can you not expect Arab anger while the settlements continue to expand? You make out that the desert given back should have pacified the Palestinians and that they should not mind their water being stolen.

[cooked]

Jordan had a project to steal water from Israel but they discovered that water doesn't go up hill. There was some propaganda a month or two ago, that Israel was stealing water from Gaza. Another lie. The water has been there for years but the 'Palestinians' (mostly immigrants from other countries) never bothered to exploit it. Useless desert? You don't get it do you? The Sinai has a huge strategic importance. Water can be had, desalination projects are an Israeli speciality.

I too think that the West bank settlements are provoking non Israelis but they also have strategic importance.

Try to see both sides of what is happening, there is no doubt that the Arabs want to kill all the Jews. Literally, they say so all the time.

Arab proverb: today Saturday (Jewish Sabbath) tomorrow Sunday ( used to be the holy day in Europe before it lost its identity).

[Seastallion]

Jordan had a project to steal water from Israel but they discovered that water doesn't go up hill. There was some propaganda a month or two ago, that Israel was stealing water from Gaza. Another lie. The water has been there for years but the 'Palestinians' (mostly immigrants from other countries) never bothered to exploit it. Useless desert? You don't get it do you? The Sinai has a huge strategic importance. Water can be had, desalination projects are an Israeli speciality.

I too think that the West bank settlements are provoking non Israelis but they also have strategic importance.

Try to see both sides of what is happening, there is no doubt that the Arabs want to kill all the Jews. Literally, they say so all the time.

Arab proverb: today Saturday (Jewish Sabbath) tomorrow Sunday ( used to be the holy day in Europe before it lost its identity).

The Gazans never bothered to exploit the water? THAT is an obfuscation. Israel does not easily grant permits to dig wells. Meanwhile, aquifers in the West Bank are controlled by Israel, and the water is pumped to Jerusalem and the settlements, while the indigenous people have extreme water restrictions. Rich Israelis swim in their swimming pools while Palestinian children have no clean water to drink.

We'd be drifting off-topic to go into this aspect in depth, but a little googling brings up plenty of facts. Have you ever noticed how all the new settlements are dotted around the place, willy-nilly? Compare to maps of where the aquifers lie, and you realise why.

[cooked]

Rich leaders of Hamas have enough water in their swimming pools also.

Why should they build settlements where there is no water? As I said before, the Jews are fighting for their lives and these settlements have strategic value.

[Seastallion]

Rich leaders of Hamas have enough water in their swimming pools also.

Why should they build settlements where there is no water? As I said before, the Jews are fighting for their lives and these settlements have strategic value.

Strategic value. Indeed they do.

Settle, settle settle, drive the Palestinians into the desert, so that by the time the world inevitably puts it's foot down, Israel will say, "But, they are too established to move out, now.". Like the US banks, "they're too big to allow to fail", the entire lot of settlements will unfairly be seen as too established to let go of.

The only strategy is to control more and more of the best land.

[dexterm]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,”

Isn't that an exact mirror image of the title of this thread? It's Ok for the right wing Israeli fanatics to call for increased violence but not for the ones on the receiving end of it.

It would have been more statesmanlike if the Israeli cabinet had announced a call for a calming down and de-escalating of the violence, and actually put measures in place to do so, such as a curb on the trigger happy unnecessary use of lethal weaponry, which only creates more martyrs and exacerbates the conflict.

Edited October 10, 2015 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

Rich leaders of Hamas have enough water in their swimming pools also.

Why should they build settlements where there is no water? As I said before, the Jews are fighting for their lives and these settlements have strategic value.

As I'm sure you know Israelis are deeply politically split about the question of settlements in Judea and Samaria. But I reckon the Palestinians aren't doing themselves any favors with terrorist attacks on Jews there as that will serve to make the Israeli public more right wing on that issue. Yes there will be a temporary freeze of new building but any hope of a direct negotiated peace is greatly diminished.

[Morch]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

The usual spins and deflections.

I do not subscribe to the views expressed in the post, but rather, questioning the integrity of your response.

My suggestion is that the post was a reflection of your own posts and posting style

Nowhere did I not suggest all the Palestinian uphold or even express such views, It was merely pointed out that these views are often expressed, even if some posters insist on denying it. One can find them on social media, demonstration slogans and leaders speeches. Abbas himself, by the way, acknowledged it, on several occasions, as an issue plaguing Palestinian society. Notice that I never denied that these sort of views appear on the Israeli side as well. Unlike some, I do not feel the need to proclaim the purity of either side - it simply does not stack up with reality.

Abbas generally expresses relatively moderate views, but not always. Anyone who follows events would recall that just prior to his UN speech, Abbas gave a rather fiery public address which was nothing but pouring oil on the flames. This was linked and discussed on previous topics. Abbas is not the sole voice of the Palestinians - spinning it this way is about as ridiculous as insinuating Netanyahu's words represents a general Israeli position. Considering the low approval ratings of both, how can their words be accounted for as expressing a unified view?

Furthermore, it is not uncommon for leaders (on both sides) to speak in different tones and words when addressing different crowds. This is compounded by most discussions here relying on English language sources, along with their editing and translation. As an example, what Abbas says in the piece of news referred to is true, It just fails to mention that his words also included (free form translation here, do not crucify) - "We support our brothers protecting al-Aqsa...". This does not appear in all translations nor in some of the voice over clips, available. Like most politicians, he needs to pay dues to public sentiment.

Regardless of your assertions on the status of the Hamas Charter, there is no special need to reference it. Nor did I do anything of the sort. There are more than enough Hamas statements that convey this view. That some wish to tout the same worn links to specific statements, while ignoring others does not change things one iota. Once again, there is a marked difference in Hamas rhetoric as it appears in English vs. statements in Arabic, made for local ears.

The rest of your diatribe is irrelevant to the question posed. It also pretty much confirms my view on the extent of your actual familiarity with the subject matter. Namely, an opinionated tourist, lacking much by way of in-depth experience. Not that this limits your right to prolifically spew one-sided biased interpretations, of course. As that old adage conjured earlier goes - you hear what you want to hear, you see what you want to see. The "analysis" presented is reminiscent of, and about as spot, as some of the lectures given by short term visitors to LOS on local politics. The usual response from most expats ranges between exasperation and indulgence.

Going back to my original points, which you deflected:

how are your posts any different in tone and content than the one previously directed at you? Or, if it makes it easier to relate - how does your rhetoric compares with calls for calm and what contribution does it represent to an already heated situation?

How does brushing aside all wrongs committed by one of the sides promote the chances for understanding or conform with reality? This wall-to-wall denial is not even something all Palestinians subscribe to.

[Morch]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

There is a huge moral difference between a violent group wanting liberation from oppression, and a group wanting to oppress by violence.

Netanyahu is plainly trying (feebly) to use the phrase that is often accurately used against Israel. Evicting Jews from stolen land is hardly "ethnic cleansing". Evicting Palestinians so as to steal the land, is.

It would depend on what "liberation" means.

Portrayal of the whole Palestinian society as embracing a "liberation" concept which incorporates territorial compromise is inaccurate. Some do, some do not. The "Do Not" element is by no means marginal, to put it mildly. What the "Do not" stands for is quite vividly evident for anyone following Palestinian sources and social media.

The unlikelihood of the Palestinian "Do Not" element's chances of achieving its goals anytime soon is immaterial. It does not confer a higher moral ground, nor is its presence conductive to reaching a resolution, quite the opposite.

And before the red flag goes up, yes - there is similar element on the Israeli side.

The fallacy lies in describing and treating each of the sides as unified "groups", with each group holding coherent ideology and goals. This is obviously not the case, and the OP makes a standard reminder of the state of things.

I do not think that Israeli (or Jewish) presence in the future Palestinian state will be a good idea, especially not during its formative years. The prospects for friction would rise significantly if it would be maintained. Maybe not much of an issue from a pragmatic and realistic point of view. Wouldn't go as far as calling it "ethnic cleansing" (but then, unlike some, I keep loaded terms for fitting occasions), but obviously not an indication of a great humanistic approach.

[Morch]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

There is a huge moral difference between a violent group wanting liberation from oppression, and a group wanting to oppress by violence.

Netanyahu is plainly trying (feebly) to use the phrase that is often accurately used against Israel. Evicting Jews from stolen land is hardly "ethnic cleansing". Evicting Palestinians so as to steal the land, is.

True. So when are the Palestinians going to liberate themselves from Hamas?

The Jews were on the land legally allotted to them by the UN when they were attacked on all sides by Arabs who told Arabs in the war zone to flee, it would all be over in a few days. They also hysterically called for the killing of all Jews. I have been in the Golan heights, Israel would be crazy to give that back. War initiated by the Arabs resulted in them losing territory. Israel gave the Sinai back and evacuated Jewish settlements in Gaza. Were the Arabs content? No. They are still screaming for the death of all Jews and total war.

Israel is not oppressing by violence, it is fighting for its life.

By the way, generally, I don't like Israelis.

" Israel gave the Sinai back and evacuated Jewish settlements in Gaza"

How gracious of them. A useless desert and one of the most densely populated places on earth.

Meanwhile, wherever there is a good water source is taken over. Every month, new settlers lay down foundations.

How can you not expect Arab anger while the settlements continue to expand? You make out that the desert given back should have pacified the Palestinians and that they should not mind their water being stolen.

Not that this is very much on topic, but...

The Sinai Peninsula was conquered from Egypt, not the Palestinians, and was not part of the intended Palestinian state. The relevant part is that Israel did withdraw following the peace agreement with Egypt. That is an indication that the canard regarding insatiable Israeli expansionism might be inaccurate. Describing the Sinai Peninsula as "useless desert" is again (trying for polite here), inaccurate.

The Gaza Strip being a densely populated area got nothing to do with Israel. Not as if residents could freely emigrate under Egyptian, British or Ottoman rule. Before blasting away with the notion that a Palestinian State would have meant Gazans residing freely in the West Bank, may I advise signing up for Sectarianism in Palestinian Society 101. This aside, the Gaza Strip would be a part of the future Palestinian state - so not too clear if the idea presented was that Israel ought to have kept control over it? Is that view coordinated with Hamas? They see it differently.

Being gracious is not a requirement.

[Morch]

Rich leaders of Hamas have enough water in their swimming pools also.

Why should they build settlements where there is no water? As I said before, the Jews are fighting for their lives and these settlements have strategic value.

Hard to demonstrate how these illegal settlements hold much strategic value for Israel.

The original concept of setting up small frontier settlements providing constant presence a serving as anchor points for security forces goes back to earlier times. With changes in geopolitical conditions and the nature of threats, their direct contribution to security gradually diminished, eventually turning them into a burden. Holding on to them makes very little sense, from a military point of view.

Granted, security and purely military consideration are just elements of strategy - economy, international relations, national unity, resource expenditure, erosion of morals and morale - the illegal settlements in the West Bank effect them all.

What remains, then?

There is that constant frontier presence projection effect, and the illegal settlements do serve a role in preventing the Palestinians from fulfilling their national aspirations. To what degree these represent an Israeli strategic interest is a matter of opinion, but even then - the question regarding their strategic benefit-cost ratio stands.

Discussions regarding the strategic value of the illegal settlements often end with advocates resorting to ideological and religious oriented arguments,

[Morch]

Rich leaders of Hamas have enough water in their swimming pools also.

Why should they build settlements where there is no water? As I said before, the Jews are fighting for their lives and these settlements have strategic value.

Strategic value. Indeed they do.

Settle, settle settle, drive the Palestinians into the desert, so that by the time the world inevitably puts it's foot down, Israel will say, "But, they are too established to move out, now.". Like the US banks, "they're too big to allow to fail", the entire lot of settlements will unfairly be seen as too established to let go of.

The only strategy is to control more and more of the best land.

The Palestinians are not being driven into the desert (which desert would that be, by the way?).

Had there been an Israeli occupation, but no settlements, Palestinians would still have a legal headache making use of large tracts of land. Land privately owned by Palestinians and properly documented represents only part of the available area. Following the 1948 and 1967 wars, what with casualties, refugees and the not having a clear sovereign power, a lot of lands came under variations of eminent domain status. Many, if not most of the Israeli illegal settlements are not on privately owned Palestinian land, but on eminent domain lands appropriated by Israeli governments. The legality of Israeli governments appropriating such lands for settlement is rightly deemed illegal, but had there been no settlements - doubtful that Israel allowing Palestinian use of such lands would have been seen as legal.

Israel already withdrew and evacuated settlements on two separate instances. Granted, not on the same scale, but pull out it did. So at least the "only strategy" remark is not quite accurate.

It is almost a certainty that under any semi-viable agreement, some settlements will have to be evacuated, but probably not all. There is some room for creative land swaps, which may ensure a more cohesive territorial continuity for both sides. Regardless of what Netanyahu publicly says, he knows that there will be no eating the cake and having it too. Which is another reason for him to avoid serious negotiations.

Somewhat hard to reconcile the urgent tone of the post above with the usual time-is-on-the-Palestinians-side.

[Morch]

Sorry, thread full.

Quote

Are you seriously denying butchering all the Jews in Israel and taking over is not a sentiment expressed by Palestinians?

...yes, I am. Are you seriously claiming that all Palestinians want to butcher all Jews...utterly ridiculous.

And I am amazed that you even give the time of day to such heinous claims as..

Quote

Abbas (who himself only knows hate as a motivation for trying to destroy Israel.He isn't looking for a peaceful solution)

I suggest you scroll down the page and read another thread "Abbas calls for peaceful resistance after spate of fresh stabbing attacks"

Quote

The President of the Palestinian Authority addressed the spate of violence by urging Israel to keep away from holy sites such as al-Aqsa mosque and urging Palestinians to refrain from violence, saying, “We won’t act like them, we will not use violence or force, we are peaceful, we believe in peace, in peaceful popular resistance.”

He is one of the few hopes for peace Israel has.

And as for the old chestnut the obsolete 1988 Hamas Charter, we have been there so many times before. Try the search button. I am not going to waste my time on deflections.

I have seen Netanyahu in action before, I have read his right wing cabinet's aim to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, I was shocked by the pure racism of young Israelis I spoke to when I visited Israel. I have viewed youtubes of the cowardly IDF in action in the latest round of violence, and yes, I would reaffirm that they all have a definite desire to see Palestinian blood spilt.

Netanyahu's cabinet is trying to up the ante not calm things down. His ministers want to visit Al Aqsa when they know it will only stir up more trouble.

He and his cabinet have a hidden agenda..creating a national emergency in order to stay in power, and perhaps a pretext for something far more sinister. He did it last year, and he's doing it again now. I am surprised you can't see the pattern.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-declares-intifada-in-the-west-bank/

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,” Ismail Haniyeh said during a sermon for weekly Muslim prayers at a mosque in Gaza City.

You should read again what Netanjahu said about ethnic cleaning of Palestine:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that a “Jew-free” Palestinian state, now being contemplated in peace talks, would be tantamount to ethnic cleansing.

One in five of the population of Israel is an Arab. How many Jews live in Gaza?

Hamas’s chief in Gaza {Ismail Haniyeh}

on Friday called violence that has hit Israel and the West Bank in recent days an “intifada” and urged further unrest.

“We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada… It is the only path that will lead to liberation,”

Isn't that an exact mirror image of the title of this thread? It's Ok for the right wing Israeli fanatics to call for increased violence but not for the ones on the receiving end of it.

It would have been more statesmanlike if the Israeli cabinet had announced a call for a calming down and de-escalating of the violence, and actually put measures in place to do so, such as a curb on the trigger happy unnecessary use of lethal weaponry, which only creates more martyrs and exacerbates the conflict.

Was that a tacit assent to Hamas being described as "fanatics"? Thought the term of choice was "freedom fighters".

The thing about mirror images is that some learn to acknowledge the unflattering reflections, rather than condoning or ignoring them.

It's called growing up.

Insisting that the Good Guys,are always virtuous, and that the Bad Guys are always evil, is childish,

Incessantly proclaiming "they did it first" is childish.

Expecting the opposed side's leadership to call for calm and passively contain the violence, while at the same time not extending those same expectations to the other side and justifying its use of violence. Yup, about as solid an argument as can be hoped for....

[dexterm]

Sorry thread full,

Morch wrote..

Was that a tacit assent to Hamas being described as "fanatics"? Thought the term of choice was "freedom fighters".

The thing about mirror images is that some learn to acknowledge the unflattering reflections, rather than condoning or ignoring them.

It's called growing up.

Insisting that the Good Guys,are always virtuous, and that the Bad Guys are always evil, is childish,

Incessantly proclaiming "they did it first" is childish.

Expecting the opposed side's leadership to call for calm and passively contain the violence, while at the same time not extending those same expectations to the other side and justifying its use of violence. Yup, about as solid an argument as can be hoped for....

Israel is the nuclear power. Israel is the occupier. Israel calls all the shots.

Abbas has called for restraint but very few are listening. Why? Because Israel has given him nothing to reward his non violent approach to peace over the last several years...stalling peace talks while expanding settlements , nothing to boost his credibility. So when he tries to curb the violence , nobody listens.

In Gaza a handful of rockets have been fired from there NOT by Hamas but by IS associated groups. So what does Israel do...bomb Hamas killing a young pregnant mother and her daughter...another Israeli apologist on this forum even blamed Hamas for that too. As Seastallion wrote...it's always prod, prod, push push by Israel, until they get a reaction, and then it's "Wadda we do. We are the victims."

2 weeks ago when all this flared up I suggested [not that I sit in the Israeli cabinet] that a smart thing to do was call a one month moratorium on Jewish visits to Al Aqsa to allow the situation to calm down. Sure the Pals would have been dancing in the streets for a couple of days, but bottom line...lid closed on incipient intifada.

So what does Israel do in the OP...orders the use of live rounds against stone throwers.You'd be forgiven for thinking that this whole situation is being orchestrated by Netanyahu and his cabinet as cover for a "national emergency" in order to keep him in power, or something far more sinister..."See, we can't live with these Palestinians. They have to go."...ethnic cleansing Part III, which is the aim of most of his cabinet.

Israel always ups the ante, the eye for eye and some, approach. It hasn't worked in 70 years and it isn't working now. Israel will be forever looking over its shoulder until it makes a just permanent peace agreement with its neighbors.

[Morch]

Sorry thread full,

Morch wrote..

Was that a tacit assent to Hamas being described as "fanatics"? Thought the term of choice was "freedom fighters".

The thing about mirror images is that some learn to acknowledge the unflattering reflections, rather than condoning or ignoring them.

It's called growing up.

Insisting that the Good Guys,are always virtuous, and that the Bad Guys are always evil, is childish,

Incessantly proclaiming "they did it first" is childish.

Expecting the opposed side's leadership to call for calm and passively contain the violence, while at the same time not extending those same expectations to the other side and justifying its use of violence. Yup, about as solid an argument as can be hoped for....

Israel is the nuclear power. Israel is the occupier. Israel calls all the shots.

Abbas has called for restraint but very few are listening. Why? Because Israel has given him nothing to reward his non violent approach to peace over the last several years...stalling peace talks while expanding settlements , nothing to boost his credibility. So when he tries to curb the violence , nobody listens.

In Gaza a handful of rockets have been fired from there NOT by Hamas but by IS associated groups. So what does Israel do...bomb Hamas killing a young pregnant mother and her daughter...another Israeli apologist on this forum even blamed Hamas for that too. As Seastallion wrote...it's always prod, prod, push push by Israel, until they get a reaction, and then it's "Wadda we do. We are the victims."

2 weeks ago when all this flared up I suggested [not that I sit in the Israeli cabinet] that a smart thing to do was call a one month moratorium on Jewish visits to Al Aqsa to allow the situation to calm down. Sure the Pals would have been dancing in the streets for a couple of days, but bottom line...lid closed on incipient intifada.

So what does Israel do in the OP...orders the use of live rounds against stone throwers.You'd be forgiven for thinking that this whole situation is being orchestrated by Netanyahu and his cabinet as cover for a "national emergency" in order to keep him in power, or something far more sinister..."See, we can't live with these Palestinians. They have to go."...ethnic cleansing Part III, which is the aim of most of his cabinet.

Israel always ups the ante, the eye for eye and some, approach. It hasn't worked in 70 years and it isn't working now. Israel will be forever looking over its shoulder until it makes a just permanent peace agreement with its neighbors.

Thanks for making my point.

According to the above, the Palestinian can do no wrong.

Any Palestinian violence is justifiable. Any refusal to acknowledge past mistakes is understandable.

This conflict will not achieve resolution without an agreement, and an agreement is made between two parties. Denying Palestinian accountability, emphasizing their helplessness and assigning them an essentially passive role in the resolution of the conflict ,may score short term cookie points, but carries a detrimental effect. Repeated descriptions of one side as inherently unable to accept responsibility and as automatically absolved from any wrong doing, does not build much confidence that agreements reached will be upheld, and lands credibility to the "no partner" claims.

Most of the usual cut/paste one-sided commentary suggests exactly the childish stance alluded to earlier:

Abbas being unpopular is not all due to things Israel did or did not do. Convenient as it is to ignore his lack of charisma, domestic Palestinian politics and power struggles, this is simply ignoring reality. Nor does the demeaning view of the Palestinians as having a collective herd mentality following "Great Leader" bear much semblance to actual political trends.

Hamas claims sovereignty in the Gaza Strip, and is de-facto recognized as such. Sovereignty comes with responsibility (as some here are all too eager to point out when it suits their agenda), and preventing rocket launches definitely falls under their unofficial obligations. Can't have the cake and eat it too. As far as I can tell, even Hamas itself does not currently resort to the argument raised.

Suggesting only one side do anything to counter the violence is totally in line with the proposed point of view. No mention is made of Palestinian leadership (not just Abbas, and without disregarding Abbas's own contribution to fanning the flames) accountability for further spreading rumors and incitement for violence.

Use of live ammunition against rock throwers is not a new measure, but was authorized long before the current conflagration. The changes made in regulations were to do with clarifying and re-defining ROE (in addition to a set of legal penalties for violators). To ignore the context within these measures were taken is just another instance of turning a blind eye to reality.

Once again, the pretense of having a clue with regard to Israeli politics brings about nonsensical notions. There is nothing to explain why Netanyahu would wish, at this time, to create a crisis which undermines his own political credibility while enhancing the popularity of rival right wing parties. Assuming that the current situation somehow works in Netanyahu's own political favor is simply out of touch with reality. A short scan of Israeli headlines and social media will suffice to show the effect is opposite. Further reading would also reveal Netanyahu ruling out illegal settlement expansion as response. The usual suggestion that this is all in preparation for some "ethnic cleansing" operation is not supported by anything save vivid imagination.

Israel got long standing peace agreements with two of its neighbors. The other three (Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians) are internally divided to degree that identifying a reliable signatory to any agreement is unrealistic. But don't ever let facts stand in the way of a good bashing.

Coming to terms with reality not being black and white can sometimes be a painful process.