Chonburi immigration - Extension

[pen]

Today i went to Chonburi Imm. for extension of retirement, 300 K THB in income certified by embassy and more than 500K THB in bank book...now they claim that the cash amount has to be deposited for 3 months when i use this combination....and refuse to renew...

Are they correct ??

[Jingthing]

Based on the national rules, they are not correct, but it doesn't matter if that's how they are now enforcing.

The seasoning is required when using the full 800K baht method though.

But some offices do enforce as you report.

When you say Chonburi immigration, which office?
Jomtien, or not?

In any case, it would be big news if the JOMTIEN office now requires bank account seasoning for COMBO retirement extensions applications.

Perhaps it is a case where the amount of your income relative to your banked money was considered too low. Not in the rules that it matters though.

Another question, were you screened out at the entry desk or did you actually make it to the retirement officer to be formally rejected there?

Sometimes the entry desk people aren't fully familiar with all the details of enforcement and could have been confused knowing that 800K applications require the seasoning.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[oncearugge]

Strictly speaking , no they are not correct.

There are one or two rogue immigration offices who are insisting on "combo" funds being seasoned.

[Jingthing]

I don't think there has ever been a report like this at Jomtien which does a HUGE volume of retirement extension applications. Which is why I think we need to know if he means at Jomtien office or not.

[ubonjoe]

I cannot recall any report of Jomtiien wanting the seasoning before if that is where you went.

It could be because of the income being less than the money in the bank.

[Jingthing]

I would also be very surprised if this actually happened at JOMTIEN at the actual retirement desk.

Otherwise, I would not be very surprised.

Chonburi immigration has multiple offices, for those who don't know.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[oncearugge]

I cannot recall any report of Jomtiien wanting the seasoning before if that is where you went.

It could be because of the income being less than the money in the bank.

Maybe a very recent deposit ?

[Jingthing]

I cannot recall any report of Jomtiien wanting the seasoning before if that is where you went.

It could be because of the income being less than the money in the bank.

Maybe a very recent deposit ?

I don't think there has ever been a report of any money seasoning issue for any reason for combo retirement applications at Jomtien office. Why would recent make a difference. No seasoning is no seasoning.

[oncearugge]

I cannot recall any report of Jomtiien wanting the seasoning before if that is where you went.

It could be because of the income being less than the money in the bank.

Maybe a very recent deposit ?

I don't think there has ever been a report of any money seasoning issue for any reason for combo retirement applications at Jomtien office. Why would recent make a difference. No seasoning is no seasoning.

I was just making polite reference to the fact that the "combo" method" is open to creative manipulation.

[Jingthing]

I don't consider filing a complete application which follows the written rules any kind of manipulation.

If the authorities wish to change the rules and require money seasoning for combo applications as they do for full 800K applications, it would really good if some kind of OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT is made.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[pen]

Based on the national rules, they are not correct, but it doesn't matter if that's how they are now enforcing.

The seasoning is required when using the full 800K baht method though.

But some offices do enforce as you report.

When you say Chonburi immigration, which office?

Jomtien, or not?

In any case, it would be big news if the JOMTIEN office now requires bank account seasoning for COMBO retirement extensions applications.

Perhaps it is a case where the amount of your income relative to your banked money was considered too low. Not in the rules that it matters though.

Another question, were you screened out at the entry desk or did you actually make it to the retirement officer to be formally rejected there?

Sometimes the entry desk people aren't fully familiar with all the details of enforcement and could have been confused knowing that 800K applications require the seasoning.

Jomtien

[Jingthing]

Thanks for informing us it was Jomtien.

Now for the second question, were you screened out at the entry desk where a lady checks your paperwork, or were you formally rejected at the actual retirement desk?

In case it was the entry desk, I would go back and find a way to talk to the people at the actual retirement desk.

Your report is going to be helpful to a lot of people but I just want to get full confirmation that they have REALLY changed their enforcement policy. Which is certainly very possible.

I will add an editorial comment here.

As many know, Jomtien has been enforcing correctly under the national rules for many, many years.

Any applicant would REASONABLY expect them to continue to do so unless there was a formal announcement of a rules change.

Anyone caught in the net of such an announcement, where it was TOO LATE to comply for them, seriously, shouldn't there be a GRACE PERIOD for such people?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[pen]

Based on the national rules, they are not correct, but it doesn't matter if that's how they are now enforcing.

The seasoning is required when using the full 800K baht method though.

But some offices do enforce as you report.

When you say Chonburi immigration, which office?

Jomtien, or not?

In any case, it would be big news if the JOMTIEN office now requires bank account seasoning for COMBO retirement extensions applications.

Perhaps it is a case where the amount of your income relative to your banked money was considered too low. Not in the rules that it matters though.

Another question, were you screened out at the entry desk or did you actually make it to the retirement officer to be formally rejected there?

Sometimes the entry desk people aren't fully familiar with all the details of enforcement and could have been confused knowing that 800K applications require the seasoning.

Jomtien

I asked them to show the paper where it show balance has to be seasoning... they show me the english translation, but the paper do not mention anything of seasoning balance when using combo...anyway they still claim balance has to seasoning, My extension has to be renew end of this month and they told me to leave to another country and obtain new non-o....

[Jingthing]

Thanks pen.

But again, I need to ask you, was this information conveyed at the actual retirement desk inside the building or were you told this by the staff at the entrance?

It kind of makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thank you.

I wouldn't want you (or anyone) to have to go to the hassle of getting a new O visa unless it's absolute necessary.

If you were told this info at the entry desk rather than the actual retirement desk, there still may be a lot of hope that your application as is will be OK.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

In any case, even if this was a case of miscommunication at the front desk rather than a formal rejection by an officer, I guess it's reasonable to suggest that anyone planning a retirement extension COMBO application at Jomtien who still has TIME to season the bank portion, go ahead and DO season it. Before, I would have called that paranoid. Now it seems to be prudent.

[pen]

Thanks for informing us it was Jomtien.

Now for the second question, were you screened out at the entry desk where a lady checks your paperwork, or were you formally rejected at the actual retirement desk?

In case it was the entry desk, I would go back and find a way to talk to the people at the actual retirement desk.

Your report is going to be helpful to a lot of people but I just want to get full confirmation that they have REALLY changed their enforcement policy. Which is certainly very possible.

I will add an editorial comment here.

As many know, Jomtien has been enforcing correctly under the national rules for many, many years.

Any applicant would REASONABLY expect them to continue to do so unless there was a formal announcement of a rules change.

Anyone caught in the net of such an announcement, where it was TOO LATE to comply for them, seriously, shouldn't there be a GRACE PERIOD for such people?

I was screened at entry desk and everything was ok....it was the guy who serviced outside the retirement desk who refuse after a "small talk" with the guy behind the retirement desk,....maybe because it was close to lunch time !!!

I'm normally very impressed with the new attitude at Jomtien office and think they have improved a lot....but when i'm "sure" i am are correct and they turn you down, i'm not not very impressed !!....otherwise i have use another option, if they not change these option as well ):

[elviajero]

I think it's safe to say that the "national rule" is now being interpreted by the majority of offices as it was, probably, meant to be written. With seasoning.

I did a quick search of the forum. Not many recent reports (within 2 years) but 8 offices required seasoning and only Jomtien didn't. This report Jontien (Chonburi) now makes 9/9.

[Jingthing]

I think it's safe to say that the "national rule" is now being interpreted by the majority of offices as it was, probably, meant to be written. With seasoning.

I did a quick search of the forum. Not many recent reports (within 2 years) but 8 offices required seasoning and only Jomtien didn't. This report Jontien (Chonburi) now makes 9/9.

I think you're wildly exaggerating but yes, there MIGHT be a trend.

Let's see what happens at Bangkok and Chiang Mai, two major retirement extension offices.

As far as I know, both of those offices do not require money seasoning for COMBINATION applications.

Also, as I said before, for those who still have the time, I suppose at this point it would be sensible to go ahead and season your upcoming combination applications. Yes, nationally, why not if you can do it? For those who might be caught in the web of a possible change and you won't have time enough to season, I suppose it would be wise to think about preparing for a new O visa application.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Thanks for informing us it was Jomtien.

Now for the second question, were you screened out at the entry desk where a lady checks your paperwork, or were you formally rejected at the actual retirement desk?

In case it was the entry desk, I would go back and find a way to talk to the people at the actual retirement desk.

Your report is going to be helpful to a lot of people but I just want to get full confirmation that they have REALLY changed their enforcement policy. Which is certainly very possible.

I will add an editorial comment here.

As many know, Jomtien has been enforcing correctly under the national rules for many, many years.

Any applicant would REASONABLY expect them to continue to do so unless there was a formal announcement of a rules change.

Anyone caught in the net of such an announcement, where it was TOO LATE to comply for them, seriously, shouldn't there be a GRACE PERIOD for such people?

I was screened at entry desk and everything was ok....it was the guy who serviced outside the retirement desk who refuse after a "small talk" with the guy behind the retirement desk,....maybe because it was close to lunch time !!!

I'm normally very impressed with the new attitude at Jomtien office and think they have improved a lot....but when i'm "sure" i am are correct and they turn you down, i'm not not very impressed !!....otherwise i have use another option, if they not change these option as well ):

Thank you very much, pen.

That's the information I was looking for.

It sounds like you are probably the first case ever on this forum of a rejection of a combo application based on seasoning at Jomtien. Not exactly something to celebrate.

Given this is kind of unfair as it is IMPOSSIBLE to retroactively season and there was no way you could have known about this change as NO WARNING, I do wonder if ubonjoe has any suggestions on how it MIGHT be possible to appeal this decision with the understanding that next year you must comply.

They certainly have every right to change their ENFORCEMENT policies but this seems a special kind of case as it is literally impossible for you to fix it without starting over with a new O visa.

Of course, understandably, because you had a relatively low income to bank balance ratio, people might wonder if they will enforce the same way if someone shows up with an income of 700K and bank balance of 100K, for example, But we'd only be speculating.

Sorry to hear you were so unlucky.

It's a long story but many years ago I was unfairly caught in the web of a similar instant rule change (this time officially national) where it was literally impossible to comply because we don't have TIME MACHINES, so I really can imagine how you feel.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[elviajero]

I think it's safe to say that the "national rule" is now being interpreted by the majority of offices as it was, probably, meant to be written. With seasoning.

I did a quick search of the forum. Not many recent reports (within 2 years) but 8 offices required seasoning and only Jomtien didn't. This report Jontien (Chonburi) now makes 9/9.

I think you're wildly exaggerating but yes, there MIGHT be a trend.

Let's see what happens at Bangkok and Chiang Mai, two major retirement extension offices.

As far as I know, both of those offices do not require money seasoning for COMBINATION applications.

According to TV member reports, both Bangkok (dec 2014) and Chiang Mai (Jul 2014) require seasoning. With respect I think you should update your knowledge instead of repeating the same line year after year.

There are very few reports by members probably because most people use all income or all bank deposit, and probably a large number of those that do use a combination have seasoned funds.

IMO people should assume seasoning is required as the norm, but should check with their individual office 3 months before applying for an new extension if a combination is their chosen method.

[Jingthing]

I think it's safe to say that the "national rule" is now being interpreted by the majority of offices as it was, probably, meant to be written. With seasoning.

I did a quick search of the forum. Not many recent reports (within 2 years) but 8 offices required seasoning and only Jomtien didn't. This report Jontien (Chonburi) now makes 9/9.

I think you're wildly exaggerating but yes, there MIGHT be a trend.

Let's see what happens at Bangkok and Chiang Mai, two major retirement extension offices.

As far as I know, both of those offices do not require money seasoning for COMBINATION applications.

According to TV member reports, both Bangkok (dec 2014) and Chiang Mai (Jul 2014) require seasoning. With respect I think you should update your knowledge instead of repeating the same line year after year.

There are very few reports by members probably because most people use all income or all bank deposit, and probably a large number of those that do use a combination have seasoned funds.

IMO people should assume seasoning is required as the norm, but should check with their individual office 3 months before applying for an new extension if a combination is their chosen method.

OK, can you cite these two cases?

Talking about COMBINATION applications, not full 800K.

You did not spell out that those reports were about COMBINATION applications. Nobody is denying the national rule for 800K applications is seasoning needed.

I would be happy to change my POV with evidence.

Maybe I just missed seeing those reports or they didn't sink in ... those are indeed major offices.

I have already accepted this report at Jomtien as being important enough for people nationally to take notice, as they do so many retirement applications.

There is nothing wrong with being proactively prudent in situations like this so I would agree people who have time nationally with combo applications should go ahead and season, if they can.

I really do feel sorry for people who might be caught in an enforcement policy change like this where it is now TOO LATE to season.

To add, I do not really believe that combination applications are very rare. Lots of people have pensions under 65K baht per month. Many of those people file such applications.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[CRUNCHER]

I have never understood the lack of seasoning when using the combo method.

To exaggerate for the sake of emphasis - if I have income of 1 baht and a deposit of 799,999 baht that is an easy way for everyone to get round the seasoning requirement.

What, of course, is very wrong is to change the interpretation of the rules without notice. They should give at least 3 months to allow everyone to adjust.

[Jingthing]

I'm sure nobody has ever presented an income letter with one baht income but I get your point.

The logic doesn't matter.

A reading of the national rules indicates that seasoning is not required for combo applications.

Changing it is fine but wouldn't it be peachy if it was done clearly, officially, and nationally and then a grace period allowed to spare unfair pain for those caught in the trap of not having a time machine.

Can someone please confirm/verify that Chiang Mai and Bangkok are now requiring seasoning for combination applications as one poster seemed to imply here?

If it's really that widespread now, I think the forum should do a little more to get the word out to more people.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[oncearugge]

Have just spoken to a friend who recently renewed his extension in Phuket using the "combo" method. There were no requirements for seasoning.

[elviajero]

I think it's safe to say that the "national rule" is now being interpreted by the majority of offices as it was, probably, meant to be written. With seasoning.

I did a quick search of the forum. Not many recent reports (within 2 years) but 8 offices required seasoning and only Jomtien didn't. This report Jontien (Chonburi) now makes 9/9.

I think you're wildly exaggerating but yes, there MIGHT be a trend.

Let's see what happens at Bangkok and Chiang Mai, two major retirement extension offices.

As far as I know, both of those offices do not require money seasoning for COMBINATION applications.

According to TV member reports, both Bangkok (dec 2014) and Chiang Mai (Jul 2014) require seasoning. With respect I think you should update your knowledge instead of repeating the same line year after year.

There are very few reports by members probably because most people use all income or all bank deposit, and probably a large number of those that do use a combination have seasoned funds.

IMO people should assume seasoning is required as the norm, but should check with their individual office 3 months before applying for an new extension if a combination is their chosen method.

OK, can you cite these two cases?

Talking about COMBINATION applications, not full 800K.

You did not spell out that those reports were about COMBINATION applications. Nobody is denying the national rule for 800K applications is seasoning needed.

I would be happy to change my POV with evidence.

Maybe I just missed seeing those reports or they didn't sink in ... those are indeed major offices.

I have already accepted this report at Jomtien as being important enough for people nationally to take notice, as they do so many retirement applications.

There is nothing wrong with being proactively prudent in situations like this so I would agree people who have time nationally with combo applications should go ahead and season, if they can.

I really do feel sorry for people who might be caught in an enforcement policy change like this where it is now TOO LATE to season.

To add, I do not really believe that combination applications are very rare. Lots of people have pensions under 65K baht per month. Many of those people file such applications.

Bangkok Jul 2014

Chiang Mai Feb 2014 & Jul 2014

Nakhon Phanom Dec 2014

Samut Sakhon Nov 2012

Khon Kaen Mar 2013

Sri Racha Oct 2015

Surat Thani Oct 2015

Jomtien Oct 2015

Phuket Apr 2014

I think they are rarer than you think, but I can only judge from the lack or reports and enquiries compared to the income or bank options.

[elviajero]

I have never understood the lack of seasoning when using the combo method.

To exaggerate for the sake of emphasis - if I have income of 1 baht and a deposit of 799,999 baht that is an easy way for everyone to get round the seasoning requirement.

What, of course, is very wrong is to change the interpretation of the rules without notice. They should give at least 3 months to allow everyone to adjust.

I agree. It doesn't make sense which is why IMO the order was badly/wrongly written. IMO what does make sense is that seasoning is required unless the capital sum used is small which apparently is the policy at my local office.

There's no denying that the written police rule doesn't ask for seasoning, but often the intention of what's written and what's written don't match. I think they either forgot to re-specify seasoning or to refer back to the requirements of income and bank methods (as the immigration website does). It is also my opinion that this mistake/loophole was allowed to continue because most people using the combination were only using a small lump sums.

Even if I'm wrong and it was intended as written I bet that abuse has probably led to the change in policy that reports indicate. Your example is extreme but it does demonstrate why allowing no seasoning doesn't make sense.

Edited October 13, 2015 by elviajero

[oncearugge]

I have never understood the lack of seasoning when using the combo method.

To exaggerate for the sake of emphasis - if I have income of 1 baht and a deposit of 799,999 baht that is an easy way for everyone to get round the seasoning requirement.

What, of course, is very wrong is to change the interpretation of the rules without notice. They should give at least 3 months to allow everyone to adjust.

I agree. It doesn't make sense which is why IMO the order was badly/wrongly written. IMO what does make sense is that seasoning is required unless the capital sum used is small which apparently is the policy at my local office.

There's no denying that the written police rule doesn't ask for seasoning, but often the intention of what's written and what's written don't match. I think they either forgot to re-specify seasoning or to refer back to the requirements of income and bank methods (as the immigration website does). It is also my opinion that this mistake/loophole was allowed to continue because most people using the combination were only using a small lump sums.

Even if I'm wrong and it was intended as written I bet that abuse has probably led to the change in policy that reports indicate. Your example is extreme but it does demonstrate why allowing seasoning doesn't make sense.

I often wonder if some of the "confusion" relating to this and other issues is associated with translating the original Thai documents into English.

My Thai "skills" do not extend to being able to read Thai "legal" documents so the above is pure speculation.

[pontious]

That is not a problem if - each office posts on their notice board that in 3 months time seasoning for extensions using the combo method will be required. To just change it unannounced is not fair to those who use it. Does not effect me thankfully.

[oncearugge]

That is not a problem if - each office posts on their notice board that in 3 months time seasoning for extensions using the combo method will be required. To just change it unannounced is not fair to those who use it. Does not effect me thankfully.

OK But now 90 day online reporting is a reality I and many others only need to visit the immigration office once per year.

I am not going to make trips just to read a notice board.

I would prefer that National changes be announced in the National press and local changes in the local press. That coupled with the information dispersed via TV should ensure most people are kept up to date.

[Jingthing]

elviajero:

I'm sure lots of people use the combo method as pensions under 65K per month are very common but I do thank you very, very much for taking the time of compiling those links. I am going to take action on this to start a new thread that specifically highlights this issue. I wouldn't have felt confident to do so without that kind of evidence. Cheers.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing