NEW METV FINNISH REQUIREMENTS

[JackThompson]

...

1. can do METVs back to back as long as you have the funds in your bank account

2. (**my edit - for all so far, must "go home" to get these**)

3. 'proof of a job' this could be showing monthly X income instead of one lump sum, like for retirement visa extensions you can show 40k/mo instead of 80k - but we don't see this on the Norway one, and others make reference to 'entrepeneurs' so those who work for themselves (digital nomads) will have some way of explaining what they do to support themselves

To me the above is more likely. I don't think Thailand wants digital nomads out, I think they want illegal workers (which are only those working IN Thailand, actually) and criminals out.

IMO. Getting back to back METV's from your home country will be difficult because they appear, based on limited information, to be wanting to issue these only to people that have jobs or businesses to go back to. Surely anyone getting back to back METV's would need to explain how they can do their job or operate their business without working in Thailand. I expect the number of back to back applications will be limited.

You don't see online working as illegal and yet you are already seem to be thinking of ways to obtain a tourist visa without disclosing your work activities when in Thailand. How is a digital nomad going to explain how they will not be working at their business whilst in Thailand and not breaking the terms of a tourist visa?

I am late 40s, too, so in the same boat as some earlier posters in these METV threads. I am not going to fork over a pile of cash up for the "elite" plan, which literally torches a lot of money - all up-front. For those who feel they have money to burn, go for it, but I'd rather invest in something that pays dividends, or even put that into a condo of questionable-risk, which will be worth more than zero, later (if you loose 50%, you are still 50% ahead of a taking a zippo to your money).

As to proof of income whilst not working illegally, most "Digital Nomads" operate under a business name in their home country. That business pays them money, so they can easily show proof of business ownership and income. Many IT businesses do not require the owner "work" to keep the cash coming in - they can hire contractors. And fortunately, neither Norway or Berlin (Germany) ask for "proof of job" - only that you have $7000 -> $8000 in the bank. The USA is generally treated well by Thailand, so hopefully we get similar terms (if our visiting reps will keep their traps shut re: their opinion of the current government).

I am not thrilled about blowing ~$700 to fly to Hawaii every ~9 months, but that is still a workable option. I've lived in Cambodia and the Philippines - nice folks there - but just Not The Same as Thailand, so I come back and deal with this rigamorole.

Worst case, it looks like doing the "every 3 months" routine - with each fresh passport, going "merry-go-round" from the hardest to easiest "single entry TV" consulates, (1-Cambodia, 1-Vietnam, 1-Penang, 1-Bali, 2-Lao* - new PP, rinse, repeat).

One last thing, about Thialand "not needing nomads" - consider just 10,000 of them putting 70,000+ Baht / mo (minimum) into the economy for a year; it does add up to real money (8.4 Billion Baht). Just ask the businesses, and rural-families of their girlfriends, who depend on them.

* - For the record, I only got 1 double and 1 single with blue-stamp from Lao, after being out of country for 7 months. Those old-stamps still played a role, regardless of "breaking the cycle". If they would define the requirements, I would simply keep going back and show my Bangkok book with all income coming from abroad - but I've yet to read any account stating what they want to see (or "has worked"), and do not wish to be "stuck" outside Thailand, with my life back in my condo here, so it is "new passport" time.

[oncearugge]

A new passport does not erase your history from the Thai immigration computers.

The situation relating to the METV's is not yet fully clarified although it does seem that 2&3 entry TV's are going to be difficult , if not impossible to obtain.

Maybe the life of the DN will indeed become increasingly difficult/expensive in future? Time will tell.

Can you tell me how a Thai digital nomad can gain easy access/entry to the USA ?

Edited October 17, 2015 by oncearugge

[elviajero]

I am late 40s, too, so in the same boat as some earlier posters in these METV threads. I am not going to fork over a pile of cash up for the "elite" plan, which literally torches a lot of money - all up-front. For those who feel they have money to burn, go for it, but I'd rather invest in something that pays dividends, or even put that into a condo of questionable-risk, which will be worth more than zero, later (if you loose 50%, you are still 50% ahead of a taking a zippo to your money).

As to proof of income whilst not working illegally, most "Digital Nomads" operate under a business name in their home country. That business pays them money, so they can easily show proof of business ownership and income. Many IT businesses do not require the owner "work" to keep the cash coming in - they can hire contractors. And fortunately, neither Norway or Berlin (Germany) ask for "proof of job" - only that you have $7000 -> $8000 in the bank. The USA is generally treated well by Thailand, so hopefully we get similar terms (if our visiting reps will keep their traps shut re: their opinion of the current government).

I am not thrilled about blowing ~$700 to fly to Hawaii every ~9 months, but that is still a workable option. I've lived in Cambodia and the Philippines - nice folks there - but just Not The Same as Thailand, so I come back and deal with this rigamorole.

Worst case, it looks like doing the "every 3 months" routine - with each fresh passport, going "merry-go-round" from the hardest to easiest "single entry TV" consulates, (1-Cambodia, 1-Vietnam, 1-Penang, 1-Bali, 2-Lao* - new PP, rinse, repeat).

One last thing, about Thialand "not needing nomads" - consider just 10,000 of them putting 70,000+ Baht / mo (minimum) into the economy for a year; it does add up to real money (8.4 Billion Baht). Just ask the businesses, and rural-families of their girlfriends, who depend on them.

* - For the record, I only got 1 double and 1 single with blue-stamp from Lao, after being out of country for 7 months. Those old-stamps still played a role, regardless of "breaking the cycle". If they would define the requirements, I would simply keep going back and show my Bangkok book with all income coming from abroad - but I've yet to read any account stating what they want to see (or "has worked"), and do not wish to be "stuck" outside Thailand, with my life back in my condo here, so it is "new passport" time.

I'm sure some online workers will continue to find ways to continue to live and work here illegally, but the recent changes will make it harder for many and impossible for some. Business owners with a passive income are different, but proving the difference might be difficult.

Thailand doesn't need illegal online workers by any name. Your 8.4 billion example is baseless as you have no idea how many online workers there are or the money they bring in to the country. No doubt the Thais relying on these people would be disappointed, but that has no impact on the country as a whole. And if the relationship is genuine I'm sure the foreigner would continue support from afar.

[JackThompson]

A new passport does not erase your history from the Thai immigration computers.

But it does "erase" what a Thai consulate sees, when they look at your passport, when deciding whether or not to give you a visa. This has been a documented, working method to obtain new visas from Laos and elsewhere for years. Granted, that might change at some point - but there is no case of which I am aware, where this method has failed.

But always have money to show when re-entering Thailand, most especially if you have a long history of living here, as you are then dealing with the immigration-computer system, which has that complete history.

Can you tell me how a Thai digital nomad can gain easy access/entry to the USA ?

First way: Enter the country, legally or illegally, and stay in one of the many "sanctuary cities" that do not cooperate with immigration enforcement. You can work online easily, but can also buy fake-documents to work for American companies, as the validity of documents is not checked, and foreigners are not prosecuted for this crime. In many states, you can even get a drivers license, while illegal, and live a perfectly "normal" life. Your children born in the USA become automatic citizens, too, unlike every other industrialized nation on Earth, and then become a vehicle to apply for citizenship.

Second way: apply for a job which requires an H1-B visa. There are twice as many American citizens graduating with Science/Tech/Engineering/Mathematics (STEM) degrees, than available jobs, but foreigners are prioritized by business for hiring, in order to keep wages at about 1/2 of what these jobs paid in the past.

Thailand is much more strict with foreigners than the USA - and I respect this. I hope anyone who takes jobs from Thais gets caught, prosecuted, and deported. A government's duty is to protect the well-being of its own citizens - not foreign nationals. But also note, that in the case in Chang Mai, those caught working for foreign entities, bringing money into Thailand, were not prosecuted.

[jspill]

What do you mean you don't see it?

its in RED

Ok chill out I was looking at the OP of the Norway thread, not online. My bad.

[jspill]

IMO. Getting back to back METV's from your home country will be difficult because they appear, based on limited information, to be wanting to issue these only to people that have jobs or businesses to go back to. Surely anyone getting back to back METV's would need to explain how they can do their job or operate their business without working in Thailand. I expect the number of back to back applications will be limited.

You don't see online working as illegal and yet you are already seem to be thinking of ways to obtain a tourist visa without disclosing your work activities when in Thailand. How is a digital nomad going to explain how they will not be working at their business whilst in Thailand and not breaking the terms of a tourist visa?

Where am I doing that. I just said since it mentions 'entrepeneurs' on some of those embassy guidelines digital nomads should be fine, i.e. those that don't work for a company.

I actually work for a company myself, so I'm fine with the 'proof of job' part. I'd be willing to bet Thailand just wants to keep people with low funds out, and working online is a non-issue if you have the funds, don't sell stuff to Thais, don't take jobs from Thais, etc.

To me actually the whole 'proof of a job' thing implies that if you have some western based or online based job, and can show that, then you are never working IN Thailand, from their perspective.

To them working in Thailand is as it states on the persona non grata list, 'Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training' http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html or those who have been arrested in the past - Phuket tour guides and so on. Never have we ever seen online workers mentioned, and we still don't yet with this new visa coming out. So your opinions are based on nothing yet.

[jspill]

Thailand doesn't need illegal online workers by any name. Your 8.4 billion example is baseless as you have no idea how many online workers there are or the money they bring in to the country. No doubt the Thais relying on these people would be disappointed, but that has no impact on the country as a whole. And if the relationship is genuine I'm sure the foreigner would continue support from afar.

Well it doesn't 'need' anybody, it would survive with zero foreigners. You just throw that platitude in there in the hope it makes you sound more credible when you make totally baseless statements like online workers are illegals.

Edited October 18, 2015 by jspill

[jspill]

As to proof of income whilst not working illegally, most "Digital Nomads" operate under a business name in their home country. That business pays them money, so they can easily show proof of business ownership and income.

And I would bet a lot of money they're not going to be asked 'will you continue to do this work in Thailand?' when applying. Because it doesn't matter, they just want to know you can support yourself, i.e. probably won't start working as a tour guide here.

Again on the persona non grata criteria - Those who have no appropriate means of earning a living once they have entered the Kingdom.

http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

[elviajero]

Thailand doesn't need illegal online workers by any name. Your 8.4 billion example is baseless as you have no idea how many online workers there are or the money they bring in to the country. No doubt the Thais relying on these people would be disappointed, but that has no impact on the country as a whole. And if the relationship is genuine I'm sure the foreigner would continue support from afar.

Well it doesn't 'need' anybody, it would survive with zero foreigners. You just throw that platitude in there in the hope it makes you sound more credible when you make totally baseless statements like online workers are illegals.

If a foreigner with a tourist visa rented an office and worked his online business from that office would they be illegal if they didn't have a work permit?

[jspill]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) right now and for years, that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself.

As long as there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

Edited October 18, 2015 by jspill

[Soutpeel]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) right now and for years, that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself.

As long as there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

Still banging the same drum i see Jspill

[oncearugge]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself if there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

It is interesting how illegals drive change.

1. Visa exempt entry rules tightened --------howls of anguish from illegals

2. Ed visa rules enforced ........................More howls of anguish !

3. ? Tourist visa changes ? ..................Screams of "unhappiness" from those who abuse such visas before the full detail is known.

I am delighted that the changes have resulted in the disappearance of time share touts from where I live. I can now venture outside without fear of being accosted by these scammers.

[elviajero]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) right now and for years, that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself.

As long as there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

Make sure you hang on tight to those straws.

[Soutpeel]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself if there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

It is interesting how illegals drive change.

1. Visa exempt entry rules tightened --------howls of anguish from illegals

2. Ed visa rules enforced ........................More howls of anguish !

3. ? Tourist visa changes ? ..................Screams of "unhappiness" from those who abuse such visas before the full detail is known.

I am delighted that the changes have resulted in the disappearance of time share touts from where I live. I can now venture outside without fear of being accosted by these scammers.

I think what a lot of the howlers where expecting with this new visa is that they would nip over a border for the day and be given 6 month visas no questions asked.....oh dear

[JackThompson]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself if there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

It is interesting how illegals drive change.

1. Visa exempt entry rules tightened --------howls of anguish from illegals

2. Ed visa rules enforced ........................More howls of anguish !

3. ? Tourist visa changes ? ..................Screams of "unhappiness" from those who abuse such visas before the full detail is known.

I am delighted that the changes have resulted in the disappearance of time share touts from where I live. I can now venture outside without fear of being accosted by these scammers.

I think what a lot of the howlers where expecting with this new visa is that they would nip over a border for the day and be given 6 month visas no questions asked.....oh dear

oncearugge:

People who follwed the rules and policies, as they existed at the time, are hardly "illegals." You speak of "abuse" - when that would imply not following the rules, as specified by the government, as I have. Those that did not overtay, and did not steal jobs, abused nothing and no one. Abuse implys a victim, which I do not find in these cases..

And expats assaulted you? Bad bad part of town, perhaps? Because the expats living in and around my condo near the beach are quite friendly. I've seen some older foreigners living in pretty shabby places, and my heart goes out to them. I'd hoped it was to budget more for "optional" expenses.

Soutpeel:

What I still hope for, is for the language in the "blue stamp" from Laos to be quantified in their implementation of the 6-mo visa, so that I may present my Thail Bank Book showing the requisite funds sent from an overseas account. I have no problem with questions, and wish employers and landlords in my own nation had to ask them (they don't).

Worst case, I will spend the money to go back to Hawaii every ~9 months (it's closer to 9, if last entry made close to the date, and one extension purchased to extend that entry). I'd rather make trips to Thai vacation spots with that $$, and spend it here, but not my call.

[oncearugge]

^ No different to all the guys in coworking spaces across BKK and Chiang Mai (e.g Punspace) that have never had an issue.

Once being arrested by accident when police thought they were employees of Punspace, and immediately all released when they discovered they weren't, seeming to imply you can work for yourself if there's no Thai employer, Thai Baht involvement, etc. (oh hey that's stuff the Alien Labor Act says about a dozen times while not mentioning online work once! http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf)

It is interesting how illegals drive change.

1. Visa exempt entry rules tightened --------howls of anguish from illegals

2. Ed visa rules enforced ........................More howls of anguish !

3. ? Tourist visa changes ? ..................Screams of "unhappiness" from those who abuse such visas before the full detail is known.

I am delighted that the changes have resulted in the disappearance of time share touts from where I live. I can now venture outside without fear of being accosted by these scammers.

I think what a lot of the howlers where expecting with this new visa is that they would nip over a border for the day and be given 6 month visas no questions asked.....oh dear

oncearugge:

People who follwed the rules and policies, as they existed at the time, are hardly "illegals." You speak of "abuse" - when that would imply not following the rules, as specified by the government, as I have. Those that did not overtay, and did not steal jobs, abused nothing and no one. Abuse implys a victim, which I do not find in these cases..

And expats assaulted you? Bad bad part of town, perhaps? Because the expats living in and around my condo near the beach are quite friendly. I've seen some older foreigners living in pretty shabby places, and my heart goes out to them. I'd hoped it was to budget more for "optional" expenses.

Soutpeel:

What I still hope for, is for the language in the "blue stamp" from Laos to be quantified in their implementation of the 6-mo visa, so that I may present my Thail Bank Book showing the requisite funds sent from an overseas account. I have no problem with questions, and wish employers and landlords in my own nation had to ask them (they don't).

Worst case, I will spend the money to go back to Hawaii every ~9 months (it's closer to 9, if last entry made close to the date, and one extension purchased to extend that entry). I'd rather make trips to Thai vacation spots with that $$, and spend it here, but not my call.

Where did you find the word "assaulted" in my post .?

Your other comments and rudeness are best ignored.

Edited October 18, 2015 by oncearugge

[jspill]

Make sure you hang on tight to those straws.

Still banging the same drum i see Jspill

This is the natural progression of any digital nomad discussion, you guys run out of any points to make, and turn to making jokes ('appeal to ridicule' fallacy) and then the thread ends / gets locked, and digital nomads keep living in Thailand as they have without issue for a long time. Then another thread pops up later on.

[Kitsune]

OH NO!

Not the digital nomad fight AGAIN!

You guys keep spoiling every each topic with your stupid DN fight!

It always end with the mods closing the topic because of YOU!

[Soutpeel]

OH NO!

Not the digital nomad fight AGAIN!

You guys keep spoiling every each topic with your stupid DN fight!

It always end with the mods closing the topic because of YOU!

Not from me... i have grown tired of that debate.....its like talking to a brick wall...suffice to say as time passes and immigration rules evolve they are going to find it harder and harder

[JackThompson]

OH NO!

Not the digital nomad fight AGAIN!

You guys keep spoiling every each topic with your stupid DN fight!

It always end with the mods closing the topic because of YOU!

As I see it, the issue affects anyone under 50 supported by funds coming from abroad. Those under-50s who receive investment income will face the same trouble obtaining a (2nd or 3rd consecutive) tourist visa, as someone doing tech work via Internet. This is because one can not be differentiated from the other, in terms of effect on the economy, condo-prices, effect on other tourists, appearance, etc. They can both show a bank-book with foreign-sourced funds.

Edited October 19, 2015 by JackThompson

[elviajero]

Make sure you hang on tight to those straws.

Still banging the same drum i see Jspill

This is the natural progression of any digital nomad discussion, you guys run out of any points to make, and turn to making jokes ('appeal to ridicule' fallacy) and then the thread ends / gets locked, and digital nomads keep living in Thailand as they have without issue for a long time. Then another thread pops up later on.

Not at all. I'd happily continue to prove you wrong, but as it's off topic so I'm not going to waste time writing posts that will end up getting deleted. No doubt we can pick up again when the next person wanting to know if working with a tourist visa is legal.

[jspill]

How have you proved me wrong or proved anything? How is me Skyping with some clients in the US, accepting Skrill payments and spending the funds here considered 'working in Thailand'?

[oncearugge]

How have you proved me wrong or proved anything? How is me Skyping with some clients in the US, accepting Skrill payments and spending the funds here considered 'working in Thailand'?

Is the IRS/HMRC fully aware of this "Skyping" activity ?

Is Skrill a means of hiding income from the tax authorities ?

[Pattaya46]

How is a digital nomad going to explain how they will not be working at their business

whilst in Thailand and not breaking the terms of a tourist visa?

He could say that he earns money from trading online.

No work permit required for investing and managing your personal funds,

and you can do so on a Tourist Visa... legally.

Edit: Maestro words: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/802916-need-work-permit-for-private-stock-trading/?p=9109146

Edited October 19, 2015 by Pattaya46

[oncearugge]

How is a digital nomad going to explain how they will not be working at their business

whilst in Thailand and not breaking the terms of a tourist visa?

He could say that he earns money from trading online.

No work permit required for investing and managing your personal funds,

and you can do so on a Tourist Visa... legally.

I would love to witness the DN proving he was "investing and managing his personal funds"

Thanks for the 'Larf'

[elviajero]

How is a digital nomad going to explain how they will not be working at their business

whilst in Thailand and not breaking the terms of a tourist visa?

He could say that he earns money from trading online.

No work permit required for investing and managing your personal funds,

and you can do so on a Tourist Visa... legally.

Edit: Maestro words: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/802916-need-work-permit-for-private-stock-trading/?p=9109146

They could if it were true.

[jspill]

So you agree trading stocks or currencies should be legal... but if I trade in domain names you think that shouldn't be? A common activity of digital nomads. Or making small adsense websites then selling them, another common one. Known as flipping.

I think you just can't get your head around online work as you come from a different generation, and view it with suspicion.

[oncearugge]

So you agree trading stocks or currencies should be legal... but if I trade in domain names you think that shouldn't be? A common activity of digital nomads. Or making small adsense websites then selling them, another common one. Known as flipping.

I think you just can't get your head around online work as you come from a different generation, and view it with suspicion.

Arrogance !

Illegals are illegal no matter how they attempt to dress it up

A friend who manages the IT services of a major bank would never employ a DN but maybe that is because he has no knowledge of the IT world being 59 years old .

This man celebrates every time he takes down another "on-line" DN scammer/fraud/thief . He celebrates often.

[elviajero]

So you agree trading stocks or currencies should be legal... but if I trade in domain names you think that shouldn't be? A common activity of digital nomads. Or making small adsense websites then selling them, another common one. Known as flipping.

I think you just can't get your head around online work as you come from a different generation, and view it with suspicion.

No. I agreed that someone could say that was their occupation if it were true.

Digital nomad means nothing. There is all manor of ways to make a living remotely or online.

You think wrong. I have lived here since I was 31 (19 years) and work online everyday (legally). I'm not suspicious just a realist who knows the facts from the authorities that count. As I've said before, just because someones skill set enables them to work anywhere doesn't mean they can work anywhere. The country they are sat in has a huge say. Thailand has not yet singled out remote workers, but IMO it will come eventually. Until then the only reason so many get away with it is because they don't disclose their true activities.

Edited October 19, 2015 by elviajero

[Kitsune]

Here we go again : The DN fight !