Palestinians shot dead as Israelis thwart knife attacks

[Jingthing]

Johnpa -- I'm afraid you don't know the definition of Zionism. It lives in the very existence of the modern nation state of Israel. You seem to think it's strictly about Orthodox Jews. Amazingly wrong.

It's not complicated. It was begun as a secular movement towards political self determination for the Jewish people. The reasons for the need for that are very obvious to anyone with even a basic understanding of the history of the Jewish people in the diaspora.

I think it's probably true that the majority of modern Israelis and global Jews don't really think much about being Zionists. Identifying that way started to become passe as Israel has become well established as ISRAEL IS ZIONISM.

So Israeli nationalism is in effect how the original ideology of Zionism has evolved.

But if they support the RIGHT of the state of Israel to exist and defend itself, they are indeed ... ALL Zionists.

Of course many non-Jews feel that way too and I consider them pro Zionist as well.

Yes, there are now many flavors of Zionists, left wing ones, atheistic Jewish ones, secular ones, religious ones, conservative ones, and even sadly fascist ones. But just because there are some fascist Zionists does NOT mean that Zionism is fascism any more than the fact that there are fascist Americans mean that the USA is a fascist state.

That's why I and many other Jews strongly think that anti-Zionism is very closely related to antisemitism. To oppose Zionism is to oppose the existence of Israel is to oppose the right of the Jewish people (specifically the Jewish people) to POLITICAL self determination. Can't get much more anti-Jewish than that.

Now of course there are a number of exceptions. Such as non-haters who sincerely are advocates for the Jewish people interested in their continued survival (Jewish or not) who think that the ideology of Zionism taking form of a nation state was NOT the right direction for the Jewish people. There might be a case for that POV considering the rhetoric coming from places like Iran saying it's good Israel is there because the Jews are concentrated in one place ... easier to wipe them out.

Also a tiny tiny minority of Jews who believe that Jewish religious texts specifically would oppose a nation state associated with Jews.

Also a tiny number of political radicals who don't think there should be ANY nation states. No borders, etc. Such people in opposing the nation state of Israel's existence specifically would not be discriminating against the one nation state associated with the Jewish people.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

It's not the Elders of Zion that most people in the world have a problem with - it's the modern day Zionists who are denying the existence of 4.5 million Palestinians and their aspirations toward statehood.

Let's start with this 4.5 million mumber. Most if not all are 2-3 generations removed from the region where their families may have originated. Some come from the former Egyptian territory of Gaza, now controlled by Hamas. That is not to say that there were not legitimate refugees, nor does it deny that some arabs suffered when they chose to either leave on their own or were forced out due to fighting. The fact is that prior to the re-establishment of Israel, the census of 1945 showed 756,000 permanent Arab residents in Israel. On November 30, 1947, the date of the UN partition vote the total was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. This indicates that no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees . In 1950, the number of registered Arab refugees with the UN was 711,000.

Nowhere is there any mention of the approximately 1 million refugees identified as jews who were forced out of arab countries. Unlike the arabs, the UN did not provide aid, did not provide food, clothing or health care. The jews had only one place to go because once again the west had closed its doors to the jews, and that place was Israel. The arabs have never ever acknowledged ethnic cleansing of jews, nor do people like you. Just once I would like to see you address the issue of injustice to the approximate 1 million who lost everything, including their lives. In Egypt, they were given 24-72 hours to leave. In Iraq, they were just slaughtered in their homes. The same horrors were repeated throughout arab lands. Yet, you and your friends never ever mention this. Why's that?

Here's the reality. As much as the arabs will demand compensation for these arabs linked to present day Israel, it will never ever happen. Here's why; Look at the mess in Syria today. How many Arab countries have stepped up to help the refugees? Millions of Kurds have been displaced in Turkey, Syria Iraq and Iran over the years. Turkey has fought very hard to deny the Kurds any justice. Every decade in Africa, there are whole scale refugee crises with millions on the run. Never, ever has there been any settlement along the lines that the arabs are demanding. There was no settlement for the tens of millions of refugees that came out of the India- Pakistan partition. China must tread carefully because of its treatment of Tibet and Vietnam must be careful because of its forced expulsion of ethnic Chinese. And on and on it goes. Do you really believe that Russia wants to open itself up to claims of compensation for the millions of refugees created after its invasion of the former east bloc countries?

And yet somehow, people like you focus in on Israel. Why's that? Is it because the jews are pesky folks deserving of a double standard?

Your 4.5 million figure is not correct and you didn't link it with OP.

There are more than +7.1 M Palestinian refugees and IDP (Internally Displaced People).

6.6 M of them are refugees. 427.000 of them are IDP's.

67% of global Palestinian population are refugees or IDP's.

+4.8 M are registered refugees to UNRWA.

NRWA definition of Palestinian refugees: “People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.” As a rule, those displaced after 1948 do not qualify for UNRWA assistance.

+1 M are not registered refugees due to exit after May 1948 : 1967 war, 1973 war, 1982 war,...

+350.000 are registered to UNHCR.

An estimated 1.1 M Palestinians out of 1.5 M Gaza population are UNRWA registered refugees. These refugees have also been bombed during IDF military offensives. They live under Israeli embargo.

An estimated 780.000 Palestinians of the West Bank are registered UNRWA refugees. They are mainly victims of Israeli 'Price Tag' attacks.

Palestinians whose forbears were displaced in 1948 but remained within the borders of what is now Israel are estimated to +350.000. They have the right to Israeli citizenship but are denied the right to return to their home villages and towns. If they became Israeli, they're subjected to partial Israeli civil law. If they remain Palestinian, they're subjected to Israeli military law.

Most of the Palestinians who committed latest crimes and died of protest, stone throwing and stabbing are from the last category and averaged between 16 and 25 years old.

A radicalised generation with 67 years of discrimination behind them and a tombstone in front of them...

Danny Danon, Israeli UN embassador in the meanwhile, showed up with "how to stab a Jew" impulse in front of the UN conference and requested not to send UN troops to Jerusalem...

Jerusalem mayor gave permission to the Israeli civilians to carry and use their weapons if necessary.

Why only concentrate on the mutual tragedies if the source of the conflicts is so old ?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

A larger "successful" Arab terrorist attack today, he opened fire (not rocks) at civilians at Beersheba ISRAEL bus station.

Hamas is celebrating.

There are celebrations in Lebanon.

Israel has many enemies, some posting here, ... no choice for Israel but to have a strong IDF.

An Israeli soldier killed and eleven people injured, four seriously.

The terrorist is of course dead.

Perhaps this is escalating.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

A larger "successful" Arab terrorist attack today, he opened fire (not rocks) at civilians at Beersheba ISRAEL bus station.

Hamas is celebrating.

There are celebrations in Lebanon.

Israel has many enemies, some posting here, ... no choice for Israel but to have a strong IDF.

An Israeli soldier killed and eleven people injured, four seriously.

The terrorist is of course dead.

Perhaps this is escalating.

Israeli police shot 'by accident' an innocent Eritrean immigrant. They thought he was a second gunman based on his colour.

Was not enough to kick on him or lynch him after he was 'neutralised' and the police start proceeding afterwards with ID check. Oops !

It's all on YouTube...

I hope that all victims will survive !

[Johpa]

Johnpa -- I'm afraid you don't know the definition of Zionism. It lives in the very existence of the modern nation state of Israel. You seem to think it's strictly about Orthodox Jews. Amazingly wrong.

Zionism has no one definition and I am not hear to get into talmudic arguments over semantics. One only has to google "Zionism" to get one definition as "Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews"..Encyclopedia Britannica. That goal has been reached. Israelis protecting their homeland today is no different than an American or Englishman, or Frenchman wanting to protect their own homeland.

That I suggested that most Zionists today are American orthodox Jews who immigrate to Israel was not intended to imply that their orthodoxy was at the heart of the matter. Most Israelis today are Sabras, born in Israel, and for whom the State of Israel is their home irrespective of any Zionist sentiments. Zionism as a political movement to establish a Jewish homeland had relevancy a century ago but for most native born Israelis is a rather moot point. On the other hand a century ago there was not much of a "Palestinian" identity apart from a larger Arab identity. History changes lots of things, and much quicker today that yesteryear.

[RickBradford]

The BBC has an interesting viewpoint on this:

BBC: Israelis shouldn’t shoot Palestinians

Q: Why not?

BBC: Because Israel is in the wrong

Q: How do you know Israel is in the wrong?

BBC: Because they shoot Palestinians

[Soutpeel]

Just read with what animals the 'Zionist' state has to deal with and protect itself from...

TERRORISTS have posted videos and manuals on social media to teach Palestinian supporters — even children — “how to stab a Jew.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/terrorists-post-videos-that-teach-palestinian-supporters-how-to-stab-a-jew/story-fnh81ifq-1227572975293

Animals are the thieves and murderers.Jews hungry for blood stabbing each other in frenzy.There plenty of material so zionist propaganda is useless.16 year old girl executed by cops is available in different camera angles etc.You have a dog in this fight so understand...I can pm some interesting videos where settler zionists teach their kids how to "handle" rightful owners. World is waking up...and it is going to hurt someones wallet

You do know Bernie Sanders is pro Zionist? Just checking. Anyway, I'm sure he'll still take the votes of people posting inflammatory posts about hungry for blood Jews anyway.

Yes as you have said it enough times in the USer President candiate thread and then said he would never get elected as he is a Jew....so if this is true then who cares if he is pro zionist...he aint getting elected

[Soutpeel]

It's not the Elders of Zion that most people in the world have a problem with - it's the modern day Zionists who are denying the existence of 4.5 million Palestinians and their aspirations toward statehood.

Let's start with this 4.5 million mumber. Most if not all are 2-3 generations removed from the region where their families may have originated. Some come from the former Egyptian territory of Gaza, now controlled by Hamas. That is not to say that there were not legitimate refugees, nor does it deny that some arabs suffered when they chose to either leave on their own or were forced out due to fighting. The fact is that prior to the re-establishment of Israel, the census of 1945 showed 756,000 permanent Arab residents in Israel. On November 30, 1947, the date of the UN partition vote the total was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. This indicates that no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees . In 1950, the number of registered Arab refugees with the UN was 711,000.

Nowhere is there any mention of the approximately 1 million refugees identified as jews who were forced out of arab countries. Unlike the arabs, the UN did not provide aid, did not provide food, clothing or health care. The jews had only one place to go because once again the west had closed its doors to the jews, and that place was Israel. The arabs have never ever acknowledged ethnic cleansing of jews, nor do people like you. Just once I would like to see you address the issue of injustice to the approximate 1 million who lost everything, including their lives. In Egypt, they were given 24-72 hours to leave. In Iraq, they were just slaughtered in their homes. The same horrors were repeated throughout arab lands. Yet, you and your friends never ever mention this. Why's that?

Here's the reality. As much as the arabs will demand compensation for these arabs linked to present day Israel, it will never ever happen. Here's why; Look at the mess in Syria today. How many Arab countries have stepped up to help the refugees? Millions of Kurds have been displaced in Turkey, Syria Iraq and Iran over the years. Turkey has fought very hard to deny the Kurds any justice. Every decade in Africa, there are whole scale refugee crises with millions on the run. Never, ever has there been any settlement along the lines that the arabs are demanding. There was no settlement for the tens of millions of refugees that came out of the India- Pakistan partition. China must tread carefully because of its treatment of Tibet and Vietnam must be careful because of its forced expulsion of ethnic Chinese. And on and on it goes. Do you really believe that Russia wants to open itself up to claims of compensation for the millions of refugees created after its invasion of the former east bloc countries?

And yet somehow, people like you focus in on Israel. Why's that? Is it because the jews are pesky folks deserving of a double standard?

Your 4.5 million figure is not correct and you didn't link it with OP.

There are more than +7.1 M Palestinian refugees and IDP (Internally Displaced People).

6.6 M of them are refugees. 427.000 of them are IDP's.

67% of global Palestinian population are refugees or IDP's.

+4.8 M are registered refugees to UNRWA.

NRWA definition of Palestinian refugees: “People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.” As a rule, those displaced after 1948 do not qualify for UNRWA assistance.

+1 M are not registered refugees due to exit after May 1948 : 1967 war, 1973 war, 1982 war,...

+350.000 are registered to UNHCR.

An estimated 1.1 M Palestinians out of 1.5 M Gaza population are UNRWA registered refugees. These refugees have also been bombed during IDF military offensives. They live under Israeli embargo.

An estimated 780.000 Palestinians of the West Bank are registered UNRWA refugees. They are mainly victims of Israeli 'Price Tag' attacks.

Palestinians whose forbears were displaced in 1948 but remained within the borders of what is now Israel are estimated to +350.000. They have the right to Israeli citizenship but are denied the right to return to their home villages and towns. If they became Israeli, they're subjected to partial Israeli civil law. If they remain Palestinian, they're subjected to Israeli military law.

Most of the Palestinians who committed latest crimes and died of protest, stone throwing and stabbing are from the last category and averaged between 16 and 25 years old.

A radicalised generation with 67 years of discrimination behind them and a tombstone in front of them...

Danny Danon, Israeli UN embassador in the meanwhile, showed up with "how to stab a Jew" impulse in front of the UN conference and requested not to send UN troops to Jerusalem...

Jerusalem mayor gave permission to the Israeli civilians to carry and use their weapons if necessary.

Why only concentrate on the mutual tragedies if the source of the conflicts is so old ?

I think the question you should be asking is how many generations the Jewish settlers are removed from the region where their families are suppose to have originated ?

[Morch]

I hope murder investigations are held for each and every death, especially when civilians do the killing.

I hope attempted murder investigations are held for each and every stabbing attempt, irrespective of who was involved.

Indeed. Of course.

However, with two different "justice" systems, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians, there are bound to be different outcomes.

it seems the out come for Palestinians is execution on the spot , since non of the Palestinians doing the stabbing was wounded or otherwise incapacitated.

Factually incorrect.

Most notably the kid stabber pronounced "executed" by Abbas.

[Morch]

There is massive fault on both sides, a jew said the only way for peace is to kill every one that is not jew, kosher or what?????

Uk be prepared this iwll happen in the not too distant future, then one will not protect the muslims. The death squads are lining up, claiming dole and having free housing, they will repay us by murder on the streets

While there are extremist idiots on the Israeli side that might say this stupid thing, it is not an actual government / official policy where as with the Arab side it IS (as in "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Now THAT IS the BIG difference.

Israeli government officials are calling for the public to carry guns with them at all times.

http://www.ibtimes.com/israeli-civilians-take-arms-jerusalem-mayor-tells-citizens-carry-weapons-violence-2132751

i suspect it is not because it's duck season.

The Jerusalem mayor called, not government policy.

In the extended version of the same, he clearly referred to those having permits and former military experience.

[Morch]

What I don't understand is that the media is constantly telling this narrative of 'Palestinians terrorists out to kill any Jew they can'...but how is it which such a mediatised hatred they are limiting themselves mainly about the change in status quo in Jerusalem with stones and knives only ?

While Israeli 'Price Tags' are committed all over the country and include occupied Palestinian territories mainly on Palestinians, but also against Ethiopian Jews, Christians and even Israeli Arabs. Here they use guns, stones, knives, fire, poison, buldozers, police, soldiers, justice departments, governement and so many more to express their radicalisation...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag_policy

How many Price Tag attacks occurred during the last month and how many casualties were recorded?

Your own link refers to Price Tag attacks being also directed at Israeli Police, IDF, and Government officials.

It also cites most of the Price Tag attacks occurring in the West Bank and Jerusalem, not as implied in your post.

Guns, stones, knives, arson and even bulldozers were used by Palestinians to carry attacks against Israelis - they do not limit themselves to stones and knives.

On top of that, there is an open criticism of such attacks by many Israelis, some even illegal settlers themselves.. When you can find a similarity on the Palestinians side, be sure to update.

[Morch]

Just read with what animals the 'Zionist' state has to deal with and protect itself from...

TERRORISTS have posted videos and manuals on social media to teach Palestinian supporters — even children — “how to stab a Jew.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/terrorists-post-videos-that-teach-palestinian-supporters-how-to-stab-a-jew/story-fnh81ifq-1227572975293

I wonder why a so-called Palestinian leaflet, supposedly aimed at Palestinians, on "How To Stab a Jew" is in English?????

Good one, Times of Israel. It certainly looks like Israeli propaganda aimed at rednecks who don't stop to think about why it's headed in English.

Because it is presented for international media. The original writing is in Arabic and can be found on the net. Plenty more where that came from.

Even Facebook finally conceded that such pages as "Stab Israelis" might actually be violating its community standards and should be removed:

Not to worry - there are others.

Also, a new clip by the Palestinian Ministry of Information out today, failing to mention that any of the shot Palestinians carried out attacks just previously. The catchphrase goes "Murder is not Bravery". Wonder if the guy editing it kept a straight face.

Keep on wondering, suspecting and denying the obvious. It's a choice.

[Morch]

Just read with what animals the 'Zionist' state has to deal with and protect itself from...

TERRORISTS have posted videos and manuals on social media to teach Palestinian supporters — even children — “how to stab a Jew.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/terrorists-post-videos-that-teach-palestinian-supporters-how-to-stab-a-jew/story-fnh81ifq-1227572975293

Authenticity aside, the Israelis always do this: Make provocations, and when the inevitable reaction comes, blame the Palestinians for incitement.

The incitement is the right-wing Israelis deliberately provoking unrest (and putting fellow Israelis in danger) by targeting the mosque for more visits...

Naturally. The Palestinians never provoke, nor make things up. It's always them Israelis.

There were about 12,000 Jewish visitors to the temple mount over the last year. Not all of them right-wing voters.

For comparison, first day of Ramadan saw around 100,000 Muslim worshipers....

A clear provocation there.

The al-Aqsa Mosque itself is not open for non-Muslim visitors,

[dundee48]

Actually, it was a comment on the attitude of some members who tolerate outright hate speech if it is directed towards Muslims, but are up in arms if there is even implied criticism of Israel.

No mention or inference to moderation intended.

The different being that while some of Israel's supporters on this forum willingly admit that Israel is not with faults, other members here only sees Israel as the only one to fault, and the Palestinians can't do wrong, now do you see where the divides lies, and why not only the Palestinians have to be pleased with Israel's conduct, but the rest of the world's hate mongers who has nothing to do with this conflict have to be satisfied as well....

If anyone understood that would you explain it to me.

I understood it perfectly well(small typo not withstanding,`with` instead of `without`.Don`t think it is worth explaining to you unless you have an open mind.

[Yahooka]

Just read with what animals the 'Zionist' state has to deal with and protect itself from...

TERRORISTS have posted videos and manuals on social media to teach Palestinian supporters — even children — “how to stab a Jew.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/terrorists-post-videos-that-teach-palestinian-supporters-how-to-stab-a-jew/story-fnh81ifq-1227572975293

I wonder why a so-called Palestinian leaflet, supposedly aimed at Palestinians, on "How To Stab a Jew" is in English?????

Good one, Times of Israel. It certainly looks like Israeli propaganda aimed at rednecks who don't stop to think about why it's headed in English.

You didn`t even read the story so let me try to explain this for you(as others have done) : The text was translated to english before the Israeli UN ambassador had a press conference for the international press to see.The originial poster was of course written in jibberish or whatever they speak in Gaza or the West Bank.

Here is the poster with the original text

[Yahooka]

Just read with what animals the 'Zionist' state has to deal with and protect itself from...

TERRORISTS have posted videos and manuals on social media to teach Palestinian supporters — even children — “how to stab a Jew.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/terrorists-post-videos-that-teach-palestinian-supporters-how-to-stab-a-jew/story-fnh81ifq-1227572975293

Animals are the thieves and murderers.Jews hungry for blood stabbing each other in frenzy.There plenty of material so zionist propaganda is useless.16 year old girl executed by cops is available in different camera angles etc.You have a dog in this fight so understand...I can pm some interesting videos where settler zionists teach their kids how to "handle" rightful owners. World is waking up...and it is going to hurt someones wallet

There was a 16 year old girl INJURED by the cops in an shopping mall after she stabbed a cop last week .

Edited October 20, 2015 by Yahooka

[norfolkandchance]

Vogie

Auswitz. Where's that then

[norfolkandchance]

One things for sure. Israel is here to stay. 6 million Jews killed in the 2nd world war. They ain't going to let that happen again. Bravo the IDF.