The prevalence of using bought in curry pastes in Thai cooking in Thailand ...

[Jingthing]

I don't pretend to be an expert about this but would like to know more about the topic.

It is my impression that most Thai restaurants even in Thailand and certainly most Thai home cooks are using bought in curry pastes for the Thai dishes that call for curry pastes.

These curry pastes likely have different quality levels.

There is the store bought stuff in packets and there is the stuff for sale from big bins in local produce which appears to be much more fresh.

What is the history of this?

Like 50 years ago or 100 years ago, did most Thai cooks buy their curry pastes in markets or did they make their own curry paste at home from scratch?

I'm not sure how to think about this buying in the key flavor profile of dishes.

If I was to judge an INDIAN cook I would assume to be a good Indian cook you must prepare your own curry mixtures yourself. Tailored to your special take on the dish in question.

I think probably THAI cooking should be seen the same way.

If the curry pastes aren't made fresh to the taste of the chef ... then it's basically SHORTCUT cooking.

Do you think I am wrong about that impression? I really don't know. Perhaps those freshly made pastes in the local produce markets are so incredibly good and fresh that it would be nutty to make your own ... but the fact is you can't put your own signature on the main flavor profile of the dish by using any bought in curry paste.

It's impossible to imagine a restaurant using bought in curry pastes winning a Michelin star!

Another question ...

what percentage of Thai restaurants in Thailand do you reckon actually do make their own curry pastes?

I could be totally wrong but I am guessing a very small percentage.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[DogNo1]

Pre-made curry is like pre-made salsa: loaded with bacteria. Best to find a dependable vendor of freshly made curry. Of course, if the curry is cooked at a high temperature for long enough, the bacteria WILL die. The key words are long and high. Freshly made usually tastes better, right.

[AyG]

If I was to judge an INDIAN cook I would assume to be a good Indian cook you must prepare your own curry mixtures yourself. Tailored to your special take on the dish in question.

I think probably THAI cooking should be seen the same way.

If the curry pastes aren't made fresh to the taste of the chef ... then it's basically SHORTCUT cooking.

Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices. It's really no effort to toss together a few spoonfuls of powder from different jars. On the other hand, Thai curry pastes are extremely labour-intensive, requiring the pounding of fresh ingredients, some of them, such as galangal, very hard. They are also sensitive to variations in the characteristics of the ingredients, so one can't simply rely upon a recipe to give the correct results.

Commercial pastes aren't made by pounding, but (usually) by passing the ingredients through a mincer. This produces a finer texture, but does slightly alter the taste. However, they are very consistent.

The stuff sold in supermarkets is (I presume) heat-sterilised which will inevitably alter the taste. (And most are very salty - particularly Lobo brand - possibly to help with preservation.) What you get at the local market is usually superior in my experience.

[Jingthing]

No, Indian curry mixtures are often not that simple to make. I know this from reading Indian cookbooks (not Anglo Indian) and watching some of those Indian food porn travel shows where local master chefs make the stuff. I have seen pounding of whole spices and of course in modern times food processors are used ... but at least they're making it themselves ... not buying the main flavor of the dish from outside. I definitely agree those market pastes seem to be superior to store brand packets.

[Suradit69]

If I was to judge an INDIAN cook I would assume to be a good Indian cook you must prepare your own curry mixtures yourself. Tailored to your special take on the dish in question.

I think probably THAI cooking should be seen the same way.

If the curry pastes aren't made fresh to the taste of the chef ... then it's basically SHORTCUT cooking.

Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices. It's really no effort to toss together a few spoonfuls of powder from different jars. On the other hand, Thai curry pastes are extremely labour-intensive, requiring the pounding of fresh ingredients, some of them, such as galangal, very hard. They are also sensitive to variations in the characteristics of the ingredients, so one can't simply rely upon a recipe to give the correct results.

Commercial pastes aren't made by pounding, but (usually) by passing the ingredients through a mincer. This produces a finer texture, but does slightly alter the taste. However, they are very consistent.

The stuff sold in supermarkets is (I presume) heat-sterilised which will inevitably alter the taste. (And most are very salty - particularly Lobo brand - possibly to help with preservation.) What you get at the local market is usually superior in my experience.

"Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices."

The invention of pre-mixed Indian curry powder was solely for the British.

I lived with many Indian neighbors while in Africa and was a frequent guest for meals. All the ingredients were, as far as possible, fresh or at least whole spices not ground up until needed for use. Some of the ingredients like curry leaves, chillies, plantain,fresh coriander, taro and ginger were grown in their own gardens.

The idea of "curry powder" was totally alien to them as was the concept of fast food. It seemed whenever I visited something was being prepared in their kitchens and it seemed many of the best side dishes like pickled mango or pickled fish required long term preparation. Fantastic variations and nothing like I've ever come across in any restaurant.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Suradit69

[Jingthing]

Yes, exactly.

Which is a reason I started this thread.

Are most Thai cooks, including restaurant cooks at some expensive Thai restaurants, just LAZY?
Now casual home cooks, I understand, and cheap Thai food restaurants, I understand, but when you get into gourmet level Thai restaurants, shouldn't we EXPECT them to make their own curry pastes from scratch? It's like a double standard of criticism ... too soft on the Thai chefs compared to other culture's food.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Jingthing

[matseng]

Pre-made curry is like pre-made salsa: loaded with bacteria. Best to find a dependable vendor of freshly made curry. Of course, if the curry is cooked at a high temperature for long enough, the bacteria WILL die. The key words are long and high. Freshly made usually tastes better, right.

How many bacteria strains can thrive in a paste made mainly out of chillies / ginger / tumeric / garlic? All of those ingredients have highly anti-bacterial characteristics.

[georgey]

Pre-made curry is like pre-made salsa: loaded with bacteria. Best to find a dependable vendor of freshly made curry. Of course, if the curry is cooked at a high temperature for long enough, the bacteria WILL die. The key words are long and high. Freshly made usually tastes better, right.

How many bacteria strains can thrive in a paste made mainly out of chillies / ginger / tumeric / garlic? All of those ingredients have highly anti-bacterial characteristics.

[georgey]

I agree with you. I make all my curry pastes & they keep for a long time in the fridge. They are also infinitely better than anything you'll get in all but the very best restaurants. They take me a long to make, but we'll worth the effort. Dog is inadvertently barking up the wrong tree because he's talking about keeping the finished dish as opposed to the curry paste alone.

[crickets]

Making a curry paste is very time consunming. When you are selling food for under 150baht why bother when the packet ones are really good quality especially yellow curry. I doubt a chef would use a packeged one.

[Jingthing]

Yes I would never expect home made paste from a cheap Thai food place or usually from busy modern Thai home cooks.

I do still wonder whether the market pre-prepared pastes were widely used 50 or 100 years ago.

[harrry]

When I lived in India 40 years ago I was surprised to find very few people miixed their own spices at home. The bougt them ready made each day from either the market or a mobile (walking) vendor.

[hawksway]

Same the World over. Virtually all Thai Restaurants use pastes either out of packets or from Markets where they are usually made up the day before. CP-Makro Cash and Carry in Thailand usually offer some good pastes made up and as with the Markets you can choose how much you want.

In the heat of Home or in the Kitchen it just takes too long to roast the spices, chop the herbs and grind it all up with a pestle and mortar or food processor - all that can take an hour before the cooking starts - and at the end of the day unless you a going to make extra to freeze, it's probably uneconomic. The only really plus in doing it yourself is that you don't have the chemicals and preservatives in the mix.

Shame really,

[AyG]

Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices. It's really no effort to toss together a few spoonfuls of powder from different jars. On the other hand, Thai curry pastes are extremely labour-intensive, requiring the pounding of fresh ingredients, some of them, such as galangal, very hard. They are also sensitive to variations in the characteristics of the ingredients, so one can't simply rely upon a recipe to give the correct results.

"Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices."

The invention of pre-mixed Indian curry powder was solely for the British.

You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I didn't mean "curry powder". If I had, I'd have written that.

Pretty much every piece of TV you see of an Indian chef involves a significant number of pots of pre-ground spices. He (and it almost invariably is a he) uses a spoon and flicks quantities of the pre-ground spices into the pan to fry. There's none of the effort of the Thai cook who has laboriously to make a curry paste by pounding fresh ingredients to get the best results.

Similarly, pretty much all Indian recipes include a list of spices. Some may be whole, then dry roasted and crushed, but that really is the work of moments. The end result may be delicious, but it's certainly a lot more straightforward than the Thai way.

[johninbkk71]

It's impossible to imagine a restaurant using bought in curry pastes winning a Michelin star

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

[wooloomooloo]

Yes I would never expect home made paste from a cheap Thai food place or usually from busy modern Thai home cooks.

Trust the locals. They know exactly what to use, and what not to use.

My wife and I will return to the UK in a few days time and my wife's luggage will be laden with various pastes. We'll be consuming it for months to come. Never had a problem or expect to.

Can't answer your question about 50-100 years ago. I can only assume that it was homemade.

[AyG]

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

Is that apart from Nahm and Kiin Kiin? (There may be others.)

Edited October 19, 2015 by AyG

[harrry]

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

Is that apart from Nahm and Kiin Kiin? (There may be others.)

http://www.comohotels.com/metropolitanbangkok/dining/nahm/chef

[StatlerandWaldorf]

If I was to judge an INDIAN cook I would assume to be a good Indian cook you must prepare your own curry mixtures yourself. Tailored to your special take on the dish in question.

I think probably THAI cooking should be seen the same way.

If the curry pastes aren't made fresh to the taste of the chef ... then it's basically SHORTCUT cooking.

Indian curries are based upon mixes of dried spices. It's really no effort to toss together a few spoonfuls of powder from different jars. On the other hand, Thai curry pastes are extremely labour-intensive, requiring the pounding of fresh ingredients, some of them, such as galangal, very hard. They are also sensitive to variations in the characteristics of the ingredients, so one can't simply rely upon a recipe to give the correct results.

Commercial pastes aren't made by pounding, but (usually) by passing the ingredients through a mincer. This produces a finer texture, but does slightly alter the taste. However, they are very consistent.

The stuff sold in supermarkets is (I presume) heat-sterilised which will inevitably alter the taste. (And most are very salty - particularly Lobo brand - possibly to help with preservation.) What you get at the local market is usually superior in my experience.

I understand your point of view on this but I have to disagree to a certain extent. The same principle applies to a chef of Indian food. For example, garam masala is a personal blend of different spices, and although blended from dry spices, the best version is made from dry roasting a number of spice seeds such as cumin seeds, coriander seeds etc. and then ground to a fine powder, this then gives you the basic garam masala which is one of many ingredients then used to make the Indian curry paste.

On the flip side, you are correct to a certain degree in that things like turmeric powder are not ordinarily home made but come from the jar, but believe me, to make a good bhuna ghosht from scratch really takes the best part of a full day.

I think that we have all become so accustomed to taking short cuts that we are losing the skill of making food 'from scratch', when I have time I like to make food from scratch, where possible from herbs etc. grown in my own garden, maybe this can be my hobby when/if I retire.

[jpb1963]

supermarket pastes don't even come close, ok for a quick time poor meal prep but otherwise a long way off the mark.

prepping and grinding (mortar and pestle) is the best option with fresh spices and herbs, market stuff comes close.

effort in > result out.

[johninbkk71]

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

Is that apart from Nahm and Kiin Kiin? (There may be others.)

I think at least one has a best in Asia award but it is run/owned by someone who is not Thai or even of Thai descent. Thai restaurants abroad serve a modified version of Thai food that most Thais say is not genuine.

On the subject of curry paste my wife uses them she says it's easy. As fair as taste I prefer Indian, Malaysian or Japanese curries.

The we must love everything about Thailand "Farangs" will disagree and call me a "Thai Hater" and tell me to go home. So be it. I lived here long enough and I love it here. The food, well I can do without it. My choice.

[katana]

I actually find the ready made pastes quite good eg kanokwan do a good TOM KHA KAI paste I'm using at the moment etc.
The pastes last for ages in the freezer until you next need them and saves all the time and expense of running round looking for the various ingredients if you were to make them yourself.

[Jonathon]

I've noticed recently that bought out green curries leave a green residue on dishes which is hard to remove, This is a recent phenomenon so it seems that whatever they are using contains an unacceptable level of colouring, possibly to mask the fact that they are not using the proper natural ingredients.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Jonathon

[F4UCorsair]

I can say, truthfully, that I cook Thai and Indian as good as ANY restaurant, and better than many/most.

I use nothing but pastes for Thai and powders for Indian. I can still put my own variation on any recipe by adding extra of whatever spices I choose. An accomplished cook can quite easily identify what is required to modify to his own taste.

I'd want to see testing done before believing Thai pastes are bacteria laden, but I think it unlikely.

Edited October 19, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[MAMMartin]

When Gordon Ramsey was doing is travel cooking show - Great Escape - for his trip to Thailand he had a competition with Thai chef McDang son of the most famous Thai chef and in that McDang uses a pre-made paste as he says in Thailand they're all great and no-one makes their own.

It's the final part of the show

[abhaya]

I used to make all my own pastes and curries blends- I grow my own galangal, tumeric and ginger etc. and discovered they tasted only fractionally better than the bottled and packaged versions. More so with Thai pastes than the Indian bottled stuff, I think the pastes you can buy from the giant lumps you can get a local Thai wet market as a good as anything I can make myself. Anyway so far no one has complained. I can make better Thai food than my ex teelak.

[AyG]

When Gordon Ramsey was doing is travel cooking show - Great Escape - for his trip to Thailand he had a competition with Thai chef McDang son of the most famous Thai chef and in that McDang uses a pre-made paste as he says in Thailand they're all great and no-one makes their own.

Uhh... Chef McDang is most definitely not the son of a chef. His real name is ML Sirichalerm Svastivadhana. He's a member of the Royal Family and was brought up in the palace. He taught himself Thai cooking whilst at school in England.

I wasn't sure about his enthusiasm for commercial pastes, but I've checked in one of his books and he does indeed say to use ready made paste for all his curry recipes. Doesn't even include the paste recipes should you want to make your own.

Just seen his name in Thai script for the first time. His name translates as "red ink" - nothing to do with the Scots.

[northernphil]

Who was it that once said " I have had more curries then you have had hot dinners " ?

[Jingthing]

I totally understand why people don't make their own.

I wouldn't make my own.

I think to make pastes better than from the produce markets, you'd need a lot of skill.

But as a serious chef wanting to customize the flavor profile of your dish, as curry paste is often the dominant flavor profile of dishes that use it, it seems to me you'd want to make your own Thai curry pastes.

Nothing posted here has convinced me otherwise. So far.

[farangmick]

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

Is that apart from Nahm and Kiin Kiin? (There may be others.)

I think at least one has a best in Asia award but it is run/owned by someone who is not Thai or even of Thai descent. Thai restaurants abroad serve a modified version of Thai food that most Thais say is not genuine.

On the subject of curry paste my wife uses them she says it's easy. As fair as taste I prefer Indian, Malaysian or Japanese curries.

The we must love everything about Thailand "Farangs" will disagree and call me a "Thai Hater" and tell me to go home. So be it. I lived here long enough and I love it here. The food, well I can do without it. My choice.

I'll share the flack with you. Penang and green curry ok. My favourite is massaman, because it is closest to a South Asian curry. The pastes I see made here are about as subtle as a kick in the nuts. Chilies, fish sauce, sugar, MSG, maybe a squeezed lime, and more chilies for luck. Like you, I love Thailand and have no intention of moving the family to Bangladesh just so I can have a good curry.