Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[kudroz]

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

[rexall]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

[Firefan]

Jeff; you got it right. That said; some embassies are getting stricter on issuing seveal tourist visas in a row (and probably check passport for visa-free-stamps too...) but in theory your plan works. Cheers!

So let me get this straigh... I have tried to follow these new rules once they were made public a few weeks ago but and still baffled.

I am leaving Thailand in Mid Nov and plan on getting a tourist visa from the Thai embassy in NY for my return in Jan. Once that has been completed, I assume I will have a 90 day visa to stay in the Kingdom. Before those 90 days expire, I am allowed to make 2 or 3 visa runs to Cambodia, Laos or wherever for an additional 60 days????

Once those 2 or 3 visa runs have been used, I must then leave the country and apply for a new tourist visa at an embassy outside the Kingdom, such as Cambodia? Then the whole cycle can begina again?

I am currently going to school her learning the language and am really contemplating not coming back if I can only stay for a total of 6 months then go home for 3. Not really following what the whole deal is.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Jeff

[paulmw]

(Pattaya Post) .....single entry tourist visas. These used to be valid for a stay of up to 60 days but from October 1 they are valid for a stay of 90 days. They cannot be extended.

The question has to be asked "have any TV contributors entered LoS since 1st October on a Tourist visa, and if so how many days did they get..... 60 or 90?" The Pattaya Post article does not seem to be attributed to anyone and I have checked for press releases on the Ministry of foreign affairs website and there is no reference to any changes to tourist visas. I was at Nong Khai Friendship bridge on friday 29.9.06 and there was a notice on the immigration cabin stating that visitors from 40 countries would be allowed to enter on a Tourist visa for a maximum of 60 days.

last week Penang the same + only single entry several people informed they would only be entitled to 1 permit?

[paulmw]

(Pattaya Post) .....single entry tourist visas. These used to be valid for a stay of up to 60 days but from October 1 they are valid for a stay of 90 days. They cannot be extended.

The question has to be asked "have any TV contributors entered LoS since 1st October on a Tourist visa, and if so how many days did they get..... 60 or 90?" The Pattaya Post article does not seem to be attributed to anyone and I have checked for press releases on the Ministry of foreign affairs website and there is no reference to any changes to tourist visas. I was at Nong Khai Friendship bridge on friday 29.9.06 and there was a notice on the immigration cabin stating that visitors from 40 countries would be allowed to enter on a Tourist visa for a maximum of 60 days.

last week Penang the same + only single entry several people informed they would only be entitled to 1 permit?

Sorry T/visa not permit

[belmac]

Can someone please confirm this:

Does my Filippina nanny need to return to the Philipines to get her 90 day visa (and stay there for 90 days before she can return to BKK) or can she go to Penang and get it (and return almost immedialely), and then continue on her 3*30 day Cambodian visa runs, et al.

Thanks

[EmptyMind]

Can someone please confirm this:

Does my Filippina nanny need to return to the Philipines to get her 90 day visa (and stay there for 90 days before she can return to BKK) or can she go to Penang and get it (and return almost immedialely), and then continue on her 3*30 day Cambodian visa runs, et al.

Thanks

Hang on, If your Nanny is working in Thailand and you are paying her here in Thailand, Should she not have a work permit and be paying tax ? Are these new visa rules not here to stop people working here illegally on 30 day border runs such as you are suggesting?

Forgive me if i have missed a point here but ......

[Ijustwannateach]

Now back to Visas

How easy is it today to retain your business visa?

pap, there is another thread in this forum discussing the business visa rules as well.

Yes, lets try to keep this on the topic of the visa rule changes shall we? This is not the time nor the place to be discussing the sex industry in Thailand.

Lets keep it on topic please.

I very much agree, and I've gone as far as snipping the off-topic posts.

[Noel]

May I suggest that you are overreacting somewhat?

My advice to you would be to sit tight and see how things pan out.

Throwing the towel in now simply because of recent developments that do not even appear to particularly affect you seems totally unwarranted IMHO.

Watch and wait...

You're quite right of course Noel - things may settle down after a while and the current so-called rule tightening may slowly become relaxed, especially with a new regime at the helm

Speaking personally, there is noithing in the new guidlines that will in any way affect me. I have retirement visa, and am not short of a few bob, and leaving 800k, or 1M, or whatever it takes in the bank for 3 months or longer is not a big deal.

However, after having been nearly thrown out of the country when I mistakenly (and very foolishly) tried to change my retirement extension to a marriage extension last year (on the stupidly simple premise that leaving 400K in a non- interest bearing Thai bank account is better than leaving 800k), I know how precarious my continued existence is here.

I am 60 years old, have burnt most of my bridges and am committed to staying in Thailand with my wife and family until I die. The very notion of having to go back and live in the UK (and for sure my wife will not follow me), scares the shit out of me. I can live here very comfortably. If I go home, it will be a very different existence indeed.

We are all at the whim of the powers that be , most of whom have no love for us farangs, and don't really care if they disrupt, upset and even destroy our lives. It's not a happy situation, and I for one get depressed about it, wondering when some new crackdown may come along and put yet more of us on the boat back home.

Yes, I fully appreciate everything you say Mobi.

However, uncertainty in terms of how farang are treated by the powers that be has always been ‘business as usual’ here; any certainty for the future has been sadly lacking and remains so.

The recent developments have perhaps reminded many of that fact and some are understandably stressed as they contemplate the possibilities as far as their own situations are concerned.

I too dread the prospect of having to move on from the country I have regarded as my home for well over a decade, doubtless losing not an insubstantial amount of wealth in the process.

I doubt I would even recognize the UK and can tell you that should push meet shove then that is the last place to which I would relocate.

Simply put, I would only do so as a last resort but I cannot envisage that ever being the case; I would then and only then look to other neighbouring countries.

That of course may sound smug, although it is not my intention to appear so. But for the retirement age having been lowered not that long ago, I might now find myself in an awkward situation.

However, I have deliberately chosen (been able) not to burn my bridges, yet I am quite aware how circumstances can effectively force people to do so and thereby limit their options should the worst case come about.

The very thought of the upheaval and lifestyle changes are daunting prospects indeed.

However, I still believe that this is a time to tread water and just wait and see what happens.

I certainly am no Mr McCawber, but nor am I leaning towards the paranoid; knee-jerk reactions are to be avoided in my view, although putting certain costly projects on hold may well be wise for the time being.

[lopburi3]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

My guess is those with less than the required 40k per month income will be allowed to use bank deposit to offset just as the retirement extension allows. We should know in a day or two.

[george]

Regarding the 60 or 90 days on a Tourist visa, mentioned in the Pattaya article, some update here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=86715

[amarka]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

hello Aloha,

yes i realise that thousands of foreigners are either illigal or earning very little.

the bar is being lifted in thailand and the thai authorities clearly do not want these people to stay in thailand and are going to make life difficult for them.

yes i would suggest that they go home and earn a decent wage and visit thailand on holidays if they want to..... and perhaps build up a decent pension and retire in thailand ?

i realise that a lot of these people are in a very sticky situation because they have commitments and family in thailand and will not want to leave...

but .......... what it the future for them? only 30,000bht a month a family to support? i feel very sorry for them and dont know how they do it.. and then when they actually retire what happens then - i assume they have no pension or at least not enough to qualify for a visa....

to me its just a big mess and staying in thailand on such a salary with such a future only makes it worse......

sorry guys - your time is up.....

do what is best for yourselves.........

amarka

[Maestro]

As the new regulation reads...

National Police Office Order No. 606/2006 clause 7. 17 (6)

...

Sunbelt, do you have a link to the full text of this new Police Office Order?

Since journalists have a habit of getting confused when reporting on visa and extension-of-stay matters, it would be useful to have the text of this Police Office Order as a reference, in other words to get the information straight from the horse’s mouth.

--------------

Maestro

[Phil Conners]

I look forward to the day, when some has the balls, to take the immigration department to the International Court in the Hague, for seperating a man from his legally wedded wife!

Good luck with that.. But be sure to bring a case against virtually every country in the world when you do it..

You don't get an automatic right to live in any country just because you are married to someone..

This has been the case since the middle ages almost.

I don't know what Hague will do about it but what you say is bull. Tell me one other country that does not allow you to live in it if you are married to one of their nationals.

This is allowed in all of the Americas, North and South and in all of Europe. Asia may be differen, Africa too, I don't have som much experiene there, but "virtually every country in the world" is just bull, pure unadulterated!

You are wrong !

In Denmark there is absolutely no automatic right to live with your spouse.

Be careful about throwing all that "bull" around, the smell might just hang on to yourself.

Define "automatic" then. I lived in Europe with my TW for 10 years, including Denmark, and had no problems getting an unlimited visa/residence permit for her. We had to ask for it, but it was no big deal. One application in the embassy here, and one visit to the local 'kommune' and it was sorted.

No 3rd degree interrogation, no questions asked, no raisied eyebrows, no checking funds, no nothing!

[rayw]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

Also consider a retiree who is unable to work now or would never get a job back home due to his age and physical inabilities. Many living here manage very well on less than the 800K Baht per year. So how could they now go home, and if so to what ?? I for one could not afford to live back in the UK, way too expensive for my pension to cope with and one of the reasons I chose to retire here. I have worked hard and honestly all my life but lost most of my pension and equity on 2 divorces and moved here with enough money left to buy a property in Thailand and live on my 650K Baht a year pension with a small amount of capital left over. I am sure I am one of hundreds living here the same way who cannot just go back home and get a job. I have worked for over 40 years and now I feel have earned my retirement and choosing to do so here actually helps the Thai people a lot too creating jobs and improving the economy here.

Like many I decided honestly to settle in Thailand for my retirement rather than live in squalor and cold in the UK. I have never had a problem with the immigration people and show them my pension letter and my Thai bank account with enough but never a lot in it. They have always been helpful and never awkward or obstructive. Long may this continue. At least in less than 4 years my state pension steps in and I will not need the extra capital for my visa. If you are unlucky enough not to have sufficient capital to top up your pension then surely most have still got a UK/USA/Euro credit card they can use for an easy loan to give them sufficient funds. Okay I know the interest charge is verging on legal theft but it is a way round the problem if needed. Still think they should let you use your property here as proof of the needed additional capital as after all you then will not be having to outlay say 10K-15K Baht a month in rent for a start.

One word of advice I was given by a helpful Thai Immigration officer is to keep hold of the retirement visa and do not change to a marriage spouse visa even if you do get married. As someone said here what happens if your Thai wife leaves you and anyway the retirement visa is a lot easier to get and renew as well as safer for all the reasons mentioned.

Still think the Thai authorities have made a huge blunder as usual, this will cost Thailand dearly with lost potential wealth form investors and retirees who now are looking elsewhere. Why do they make such stupid ill thought out policies and ruin what should be an excellent country and place to live ? One sometimes wonders at the level of education the so called ruling class here have ever received as some of their actions are those of low IQ and/or grossly uneducated people who should not be in powerful positions or else they otherwise have ulterior motives like racism maybe !! Fingers crossed the new regime are well educated and have moral motives and thus will see the light .. sorry did I see a pig flying overhead !!

[ray23]

The last bit of this came from a news reported in Pattaya a review of the immgration site shows no changes, nor does the Ministry of Foriegn affairs. Nor have I been able to verify the changes anywhere else. Now maybe the changes haven't been put in yet, or maybe it was the reporter interputations. In any event it will take some time before the we know for show. But until the codes are ammended there is no law.

It would be impossible to know that at this juncture everything is just to recent. My approach at this time is to monitor it .

It's funny I'm married but can not qualify for the marriage visa as it is now being presented but I can qaulity for thr the single one.

Like eveything else here I think we have to wait and see what really comes from this if anything.

[BlackJack]

i went to Jomtien Immigrations at 2PM today

I was told that if the visa is due in Jan 2007 then each month i need to put into my bank account 200K or 300K to make up the 800K for review in Jan 2007

or get proof of income / pension per month

Seems to me that we are back to the discretion of the office on duty at the time you go in to get your renewal.

good luck guys

[BlackJack]

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

After talking with Immigration in Jomtien it seems that if you can prove consistent income of 65K per month and get the embassy to back it up then all is well

[Upcountry]

Seems to me that we are back to the discretion of the office on duty at the time you go in to get your renewal.

The discretion may be helpful if you are in a tight spot, but of course, it wouldn't pay to count on that going in your favor!

[wolfmanjack]

I would like to know why all the people living in thailand on a so called permanent basis do not become a citizen of Thailand and saves themselve the hazzle of forever obtaining vizas

not so easy to do. I know someone that was a monk here before he started a business. He now makes between 2mill and 4 mill per year. He has been here for 17 years. Can read write and speak thai. He paid the mega bucks for the application fee, passed all of the tests and was still denied. How many times do they want to collect the fee before they aprove the residency ??

[what next?]

so what are we all going to do about it? post in forums ?

have a chat in the pub? close our eyes and hope it all just goes away?

how much money do we have to have next time the visa is renewed?

the thais can do and will do what they want regardless of our personal circumstances.

anybody ever thought of spending less money here?

economic sanctions?

downgrade?

selective investment?

who's buying all these trucks with red plates?

who's buying all the land (another thread )

12 bedroom 15 bathroom houses?

who's buying exotic wood furniture?

swimming pools?

stop stop stop---- please use your wallet as a weapon

[dereklev]

I phoned Suan Plu today about extending my "Marriage Visa" the officer I spoke to just kept repeating same as last year to each question I asked.

When I asked does the money have to be in the account 3 months in advance and remain untouched until the extension is granted he just repeated for you the same as last year!!

Now I am even more confused!!

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me if I missed a reply somewhere in this 987 page topic (just kidding..), but I understood that the monthly salary rules don't apply to teachers. So, a teacher on a B or O visa, extended by a work permit as a teacher, can earn 25K baht or 89K baht, regardless of nationality. Right?

[Naam]

"He paid the mega bucks for the application fee, passed all of the tests and was still denied. How many times do they want to collect the fee before they aprove the residency ??"

would somebody please enlighten me where i can get specific information as far as a "real" residence permit is concernede? how much exactly are "mega bucks"?

thanks in advance.

[LoveDaBlues]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Edited October 3, 2006 by LoveDaBlues

[lopburi3]

I phoned Suan Plu today about extending my "Marriage Visa" the officer I spoke to just kept repeating same as last year to each question I asked.

When I asked does the money have to be in the account 3 months in advance and remain untouched until the extension is granted he just repeated for you the same as last year!!

Now I am even more confused!!

There is no change for you because you already are in the 400k system and will remain able to use it. Only those making first application are likely to be hit with the 40k income requirement. The 3 month may well be something they tell you to do on your next renewal but believe it will only be closely checked for those who are suspect (no money until application and then gone).

[Noel]

so what are we all going to do about it? post in forums ?

have a chat in the pub? close our eyes and hope it all just goes away?

how much money do we have to have next time the visa is renewed?

the thais can do and will do what they want regardless of our personal circumstances.

anybody ever thought of spending less money here?

economic sanctions?

downgrade?

selective investment?

who's buying all these trucks with red plates?

who's buying all the land (another thread )

12 bedroom 15 bathroom houses?

who's buying exotic wood furniture?

swimming pools?

stop stop stop---- please use your wallet as a weapon

Yeah right, and you could stamp your feet, hold your breath until you go blue in the face or perhaps threaten to sthcweam and sthcweam until you are sthick!

Pissing in the wind would be just as worthwhile...

I personally do not believe that they are going to kick back any retiree who has a financial track record as evidenced by a Thai bank passbook.

Perhaps what they are really talking about are new applicants and those who borrow the 800k for a day and then promptly withdraw the money the day after they get the extension? That should not be too difficult to spot for those renewing (and put the applicant on the spot...).

I very much doubt I will personally have any problem, but of course nothing is certain.

It will be interesting to see as to what response I get from Pattaya Immigration when I apply for my fourth annual extension in December, having just transferred enough to put my account balance well into seven figures a few days before.

We shall see what the ongoing experiences of those actually renewing reveal in due course...

[Axel]

"He paid the mega bucks for the application fee, passed all of the tests and was still denied. How many times do they want to collect the fee before they aprove the residency ??"

would somebody please enlighten me where i can get specific information as far as a "real" residence permit is concernede? how much exactly are "mega bucks"?

thanks in advance.

Talking about Baht 200,000.

More info here: http://www.thaivisa.com/300.0.html

[ray23]

I hvav never had 800K in the bank I consistently put 65K or more in the bank each month and the Thai bank gives me a letter stating what account it comes from in the states. I use that money each month for livign expenses, never been questioned. I'm on my third renewal. I really doesn't sound like anyhting has changed.

[lopburi3]

Immigration most surly does use the term pension, on there website. And they do not normally require 65k per month transfers if you provide a normal pattern of transfers every few months.