Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[rexall]

<snip>Some posters, and they know who they are; are living hand to mouth, very little savings and just 20-30 thousand baht a month . . .

Absolutely! Right on! There are many such unfortunates living hand-to-mouth at 28K per month in Thailand. They call them Engarishe Teachers! And they gotti work permits, teaching licenses and everything!

<Snip>

Aloha,

Rex

Edited October 2, 2006 by Totster

[doclarry]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

For that matter...how comfortable would I be as a 60 year old man married to a Thai applying for a retirement visa...which is only for a year...when a house would cost in the low 6 figures? Why would I want to buy a house...if in 12 months I could not stay for some immigration law change?

Doc L

[sbk]

I see there is no reference at all to Thai husbands supporting foreign wives so am assuming the rules stay the same?

Also, lets try to keep the flaming down and keep this civil.

and once again, to those who insist on posting in ALL CAPS, please do not do so, as it is considered to be shouting and quite rude in forum life. Thanks

[libya 115]

<snip>Some posters, and they know who they are; are living hand to mouth, very little savings and just 20-30 thousand baht a month . . .

Absolutely! Right on! There are many such unfortunates living hand-to-mouth at 28K per month in Thailand. They call them Engarishe Teachers! And they gotti work permits, teaching licenses and everything!

<Snip>

Aloha,

Rex

If you work in Thailand as a teacher then you should be on a work permit, so where is the problem?

If you are not on a work permit, due to administration red-tape, that in itself is not an excuse. I would not work in Thailand without a work permit. Why risk a jail sentence and fine?

[VegasVic]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

[sbk]

Now back to Visas

How easy is it today to retain your business visa?

pap, there is another thread in this forum discussing the business visa rules as well.

Yes, lets try to keep this on the topic of the visa rule changes shall we? This is not the time nor the place to be discussing the sex industry in Thailand.

Lets keep it on topic please.

[harpman88]

PLUS what if my extension is up this month or next month and as of now I don't have 800,000 in the bank.

will i be refused and given 7 days to sell my house, sell my car, pull my daughter out of international shcool, pack all my stuff and leave??

Given the timing, I wouldn't expect that to be enforced to the letter. Also (I may be wrong) but I think that there is a certain amount of individual discretion on the part of the officials. So in some cases certain restrictions would be overlooked - or an appropriate extension would be given to allow one to meet the requirements.

I am getting confused over the 'retirement' visa. If you are receiving 65,000 per month pension, do you still need to show 800,000 in the Bank? or will the proof of income be enough. On extension If they check the bank and find it empty will they also accept the income of 65,000.

Forgive my confusion but it all seems bits and pieces to me.

If you have the annual 65K/month pension you dont have to also have 800K in the Thai bank.

But Thai Imm. DOES want to see a Thai bank acct. that you are using to live from during the year

Many posts here on TV on this very subject. Most use wire Xfers from their home bank accts. to maintain the thai acct. during the yr.

[pap]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

[pap]

Now back to Visas

How easy is it today to retain your business visa?

pap, there is another thread in this forum discussing the business visa rules as well.

Yes, lets try to keep this on the topic of the visa rule changes shall we? This is not the time nor the place to be discussing the sex industry in Thailand.

Lets keep it on topic please.

thanks for the link.

[rexall]

<snip>Some posters, and they know who they are; are living hand to mouth, very little savings and just 20-30 thousand baht a month . . .

Absolutely! Right on! There are many such unfortunates living hand-to-mouth at 28K per month in Thailand. They call them Engarishe Teachers! And they gotti work permits, teaching licenses and everything!

<Snip>

Aloha,

Rex

If you work in Thailand as a teacher then you should be on a work permit, so where is the problem?

If you are not on a work permit, due to administration red-tape, that in itself is not an excuse. I would not work in Thailand without a work permit. Why risk a jail sentence and fine?

You are replying out of context, Libya. My admittedly sarcastic reply (it was even more sarcastic originally, but some evildoer removed the part he didn't like ) was about your scorn for people who live, as you referred to it, "hand-to-mouth" on 20K-30K per month. However, the gov has absolutely no problem issuing licenses, work permits, and annual visa extensions to thousands of English teachers who work for minimum wage at 28K per month. Do you hold scorn for these individuals as well?

I propose that the gov either raise the minimum wage for English teachers to 65K per month and require them to deposit 800,000K in a Thai bank . . . or lower the income requirements for married and retired persons to 28K per month, and eliminate the bank requirements.

Aloha,

Rex

Edited October 2, 2006 by rexall

[Felt 35]

Is there any change with the multiple Non-immigrant O visa, based on marriage to a Thai.

I have been abroad for a while so have not really had time to get with me all the the news about the last visa regulations.

Thanks & Regards

Felt

[luangtom]

This is all overwhelming. I am married to a Thai wife from the Isaan for the past 32 years and have

resided in the US with annual return-trips back to visit family and friends on the 30-day tourist visas

upon arrival. We will retire in 2007 and wish to reside at least part of the year in Thailand, as we have

a home built there already. What is gonna happen for us? What sort of visa should we apply for? My

wife is a holder of a Thai-id, on the tabian-baan and yet is also a US-citizen and travels on a US pass-

port. What visa will be our best bet for ease of extended-stay? Any information will be helpful. All of

this new immigration-change is overwhelming........

Does your wife not have a Thai Passport?

Regardless, the obvious option for you is to apply for a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa. On the assumption You can apply on the grounds of supporting a Thai wife or retirement, the latter being on the assumption that you are at least fifty years of age.

Of course you will have to meet the financial requirements if you wish to extend, whichever of the above routes you take.

On the other hand, if you plan to spend three months or less in the Kingdom per annum, then a (real) Tourist Visa is also an option.

My wife has no Thai passport since she became a naturalized US citizen. She has her

old one that has expiried. She travels on the US passport. My question is will we BOTH

need to apply for visas? She has the Thai national ID-card and is listed as house-holder

on the tabian-baan for our residence. So, is her application for a visa necessary? I had

pretty much decided to use a "retirement" visa. Is this the avenue I should puruse?

Edited October 2, 2006 by luangtom

[JimsKnight]

hey cheap charlies! i for one, go back to my home country on holiday a few times a year and i just get my visas there and will continue to do it this way... if you can't afford to go to a non-border country once every 90 days then you probably should'nt be living in a foreign country, eh?

Is this an information post? Or did you just wish to inform other members that you have money to burn?

There are many reasons why people choose not to fly back to their home countries every 90 days.

Wake up!

Why would a person want to waste thousands of dollars flying back to Europe, or the US just to get a 90 day visa. Whether the person can afford to do so or not is irrelevant. Unless the long trip is necessary, it would be a total waste of time and money. Having money does not mean one must waste it.

you only have to go back to your home country once, to get the visa, good for a year... u just gotta leave every 90 days... normally i go to a nonborder country every couple of months or so, like HK or to europe....

what im trying to point out is that the cheap charlies are the ones mainly affected... and i say again, if you can't afford to live here, haul ass!

A lot of the so called cheap charlies have sold all there worldly possesions in Europe/US to create a new life in LOS and not fall under the narrow minded visa categorys.

So £££ for flight, taxi hotel, food, amenities, waiting around for your visa to come through the post, then £££ for return flight. Not everyone is loaded and flowing with cash.

Its not the end of the world for expats but its going to see a downturn in the tourism gig.

I don't know about you lot but thailands now looking neck and neck with PI, Brazil and indonesia for sojurning.

[leti]

I'm beginning to feel that it's not really worth the effort to stay in Thailand.

Perhaps I'll chage my mind, but right now, I'm thinking the whole family is going to be moving, next time I get a contract outside Thailand.

You are right about all mentioned facts.

I am also tired after 12 years about:

unqualified sale staff, painters, electricians, mechanics etc.

poor services in banks and condo managments etc.

tired of signing useless photocopies for any applications

dirty, damaged streets and rubish public parks

the no maintance mentality

high bills such as UBC, Electricity

poor train system and horror public bus ghetto, old dirty taxis etc.

high prices for highwaytolls and public national parks and museum etc.

dirty zoos an animal living under terrible condition.

fake materials, clothes and goods.

no after sale services

no customer carre

no return warranty without big surprises.

no cash back...sold and take care your self system

no working street lightning

poor traffic control system

overloaded old trucks on highways causing traffic jams

public toillets without paper and running water supply

dirty beaches and old sunchears

tired of sales promotions

tired to always read "imported" on goods and menu cards.

tired of imported hugh prices

tired of " i dont know" "no have"

allways wondering heads when a farang talks in thai.

same questions like: where you from and how long you stay..bla..bla

I don't feel very welcome here.

[Totster]

My wife has no Thai passport since she became a naturalized US citizen. She has her

old one that has expiried. She travels on the US passport. My question is will we BOTH

need to apply for visas? She has the Thai national ID-card and is listed as house-holder

on the tabian-baan for our residence. So, is her application for a visa necessary? I had

pretty much decided to use a "retirement" visa. Is this the avenue I should puruse?

Hi, I'm sure that if she has an ID card and Tabien Baan she could apply for a Thai Passport in the US and use that to enter Thailand, then there is no need for a visa for her.

totster

[cobra]

I'm beginning to feel that it's not really worth the effort to stay in Thailand.

Perhaps I'll chage my mind, but right now, I'm thinking the whole family is going to be moving, next time I get a contract outside Thailand.

You are right about all mentioned facts.

I am also tired after 12 years about:

unqualified sale staff, painters, electricians, mechanics etc.

poor services in banks and condo managments etc.

tired of signing useless photocopies for any applications

dirty, damaged streets and rubish public parks

the no maintance mentality

high bills such as UBC, Electricity

poor train system and horror public bus ghetto, old dirty taxis etc.

high prices for highwaytolls and public national parks and museum etc.

dirty zoos an animal living under terrible condition.

fake materials, clothes and goods.

no after sale services

no customer carre

no return warranty without big surprises.

no cash back...sold and take care your self system

no working street lightning

poor traffic control system

overloaded old trucks on highways causing traffic jams

public toillets without paper and running water supply

dirty beaches and old sunchears

tired of sales promotions

tired to always read "imported" on goods and menu cards.

tired of imported hugh prices

tired of " i dont know" "no have"

allways wondering heads when a farang talks in thai.

same questions like: where you from and how long you stay..bla..bla

I don't feel very welcome here.

Gee, don't sugar coat it, tell it to us straight,

[bkkandrew]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

[dunque]

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THEY WANT ALL OF US OUT. COME TO THINK OF IT, THINGS AIN'T SO BAD BACK HOME IN THE U.S.A. THAT I WOULD WANT TO TRADE MY RIGHTS AND PRIVLEDGES BACK HOME FOR NO RIGHTS AND NO PRIVLEGES HERE.

I've been thinking about this lately. I'm Australian but have lived in the Philippines for 3 years and 1 year in Thailand.

What are the real advantages, apart from it being cheap, of living in Thailand once the novelty of the girls wears off (when you finally realize they are just after your money) and you become exhausted by the unrelenting heat.

Comparing Thailand with USA and Australia:

There are better beaches back at home.

It's cleaner back at home.

They speak English.

The food is better with more choices.

The infrastructure is more reliable and better: Electricity, Internet, Cable TV.

Better cinema (I'm comparing with Pattaya, where I can watch only 1, or if lucky 2 new English movies per week).

I even believe they're friendlier back at home (Australia). I know they call this the LOS, but from my experience, that's nonsense. Even the Philippines is MUCH friendlier and welcoming. I can stay for a year without leaving. That requires 6 x 30 minute visits to the local Immigration Office and under 9000 baht for the year.

Speaking for myself, the only advantage of living in Thailand (over Australia) is the price.

Have I be living in Asia too long? What have I missed?

When they start making it difficult to stay I really start thinking of getting back home, or at least moving back to the Philippines. I've even been considering Malaysia as an alternative.

.... and of course it is so easy to emigrate to the US or Australia - no unreasonable bureaucracy there

[Rdrokit]

what i dont understand is i have a retirement visa and so must show 65k per month whereas if i married i only have to show 40K

Q1, so when i get married do i dump the retirement visa for a marrage visa?

part 2

my retire visa is due for renewal in Jan so this does not give me 3 months lead time to meet these new requirements.

Q2. If i get married then Thai wife can show this income for the past 12 months so will that suffice?

Thailands a great place until you have to do something!!!

BlackJack,

If you get a marriage visa then your retirement visa is null and void. If there is any way that you could keep your retirement visa keep it. Have you thought about what happens if you are on a marriage visa and your wife leaves and gets a divorce. Then you would be up the creek without a paddle.

[amarka]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

hi all....

if you are a tourist you get a tourist visa

if you are retired you get a retirement visa

if you are working ( legally ) you get a work visa

and if you want to buy a condo - just buy one.....

and so on....

so wheres the problem.... i have no problem getting visas for my staff....

if you are here illegally - paying no taxes or insurance and just a cheap charlie.... then it might be time to leave... and to be honest with you that must apply to every foreginer earning less than 30,000bht a month....

amarka

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I picked a good week to start drinking

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This is all overwhelming. I am married to a Thai wife from the Isaan for the past 32 years and have

resided in the US with annual return-trips back to visit family and friends on the 30-day tourist visas

upon arrival. We will retire in 2007 and wish to reside at least part of the year in Thailand, as we have

a home built there already. What is gonna happen for us? What sort of visa should we apply for? My

wife is a holder of a Thai-id, on the tabian-baan and yet is also a US-citizen and travels on a US pass-

port. What visa will be our best bet for ease of extended-stay? Any information will be helpful. All of

this new immigration-change is overwhelming........

Does your wife not have a Thai Passport?

Regardless, the obvious option for you is to apply for a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa. On the assumption You can apply on the grounds of supporting a Thai wife or retirement, the latter being on the assumption that you are at least fifty years of age.

Of course you will have to meet the financial requirements if you wish to extend, whichever of the above routes you take.

On the other hand, if you plan to spend three months or less in the Kingdom per annum, then a (real) Tourist Visa is also an option.

My wife has no Thai passport since she became a naturalized US citizen. She has her

old one that has expiried. She travels on the US passport. My question is will we BOTH

need to apply for visas? She has the Thai national ID-card and is listed as house-holder

on the tabian-baan for our residence. So, is her application for a visa necessary? I had

pretty much decided to use a "retirement" visa. Is this the avenue I should puruse?

Easiest and least expensive is to get her a new Thai passport.

[pap]

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

I think you are right but it will be in a longer time frame than you foresee. It takes time for errors like this to trickle into the economy. Farangs account for a small percentage of total rental markets. But they compete for the higher end in many scenario's. Because of this it will have more of an economic impact. They tend to spend more on rentals than Thais. In the case of a renter leaving because he has to leave the country that effect will take months to impact the individuals and the economy. Say someone needs to leave in 90 days. The owners can take less for their rental (keep in mind most Thai owners will not rent if they can't get what they want) to offset their loss. They can tread water for several months before major problems arise if they were smart about capitalising prior to purchase.

This will drag down condo purchases since if you can't live or rent easily there are other places to go. We will have to wait and see if Thailand recognizes this as a mistake. There are other ways to fix this such as making legal stay easier and less costly. This is one of the mistakes America is in the process of making. The US mistake however is not that we are cutting off a money flow...we are cutting off a labor Flow without addressing the need for the labor first.

In both countries you should ask why are people here illegally? Address those issues. Then implement the change. Both US and Thailand are making the changes before addressing the issues. In the case of the US it is that it is easier to come over illegally than legally but it is obvious we need the labor or they wouldn't come. Thailand has a different set of issues but changes are occuring before an alternate method that works to keep money and needed personel in place via legal means. There are methods in place but they do not easily lend themselves to all scenarios. Sunbelt can provide legal means as well as several other companies but they can not easily address all the scenerious that will now be swept away. It is fairly simple to do business in India today...with one or two gotcha's...because they want foreign cash understanding that with cash come schools, jobs, food, and more toys. That is why their economy is cranking. That and an educated pool of labor.

[pap]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

hi all....

if you are a tourist you get a tourist visa

if you are retired you get a retirement visa

if you are working ( legally ) you get a work visa

and if you want to buy a condo - just buy one.....

and so on....

so wheres the problem.... i have no problem getting visas for my staff....

if you are here illegally - paying no taxes or insurance and just a cheap charlie.... then it might be time to leave... and to be honest with you that must apply to every foreginer earning less than 30,000bht a month....

amarka

How fortunate for you. I hope your luck holds and reinterpretation of other laws do not affect you. Since changes occured across the board I am sure you realize not all posters have the same scenario as you. Otherwise this topic would not exist. Not all posters not in your scenario are out trying to break the law either. I hope you have continued luck.

[yoshiwara]

...under the now defunct 30-day visa rules a significant number of falangs have 'settled' in LOS. Many of these financially cannot afford to return to their home countries, so discounting the option of moving elsewhere...hey they like Thailand!..the practicalities seem to involve spending some occasional time in Penang, Cambod, Singers etc to sort out a proper visa to return 2-3 times a year for those who fall under the monetary bars set by the Govt. Thats it really. I notice however, that this thread has given rise to some eg Mr Uppercase who seem to have a splenetic dislike for LOS and that the change in the visa laws is somehow the final straw, or did they always think like this?

[pap]

...under the now defunct 30-day visa rules a significant number of falangs have 'settled' in LOS. Many of these financially cannot afford to return to their home countries, so discounting the option of moving elsewhere...hey they like Thailand!..the practicalities seem to involve spending some occasional time in Penang, Cambod, Singers etc to sort out a proper visa to return 2-3 times a year for those who fall under the monetary bars set by the Govt. Thats it really. I notice however, that this thread has given rise to some eg Mr Uppercase who seem to have a splenetic dislike for LOS and that the change in the visa laws is somehow the final straw, or did they always think like this?

Well, the people that don't like someplace will always find a reason to chime in. I think the vast majority of people on this forum love..... or at the very least like Thailand or they wouldn't be making an effort to stay.

For me it is easy. The positives of Thailand outweigh its negatives. That doesn't mean we can't hope for improvement. For investing ....well that is on hold for now, for me personally and professionally until I see where many issues end up in a month or so. The visa requirements are only part of the puzzle...albeit a significant part. If you don't like the laws today maybe the next change will be better. One thing is for sure....they will always keep changing. Those who change fastest win.

[percy2]

splenetic dislike

Without doubt the best phrase used in this thread. I will remember that one!

Made my day and its still pretty early

Cheers

[ferret]

If your son is Thai (half) then you can try to obtain a non-o based on that - based on your indication that he needs visa (education) and later that he only needs when 15....and then you say that he is born in Thailand - I am slightly confused on this option though...

No, he's not Thai, also he's born here. But I think I go there 1 more time, because on the day I was there, all were in a very bad mood, and the rules I read on the www.immigration.go.th are not the same as I was told in the office...

But thanks for the answer )

[roysv]

Hi!

This is the way my embassy has understood the new rules for the citizens of Norway!

VOA

If I do a VOA I get 30 days! I can then do 2 visa run (90 days) Then I have to get out of

Thailand for 90 days before I can get back in (180 days). As they wrote I can then get in and

out of Thailand as many times I want as long as it does not exceeds 90 days.

Apply for Visa at any Embassy or consulates in the world

If I apply for a tourist visa at any embassy in the world before going into Thailand I get 60 days, then I can ask for 30 days more at the local immigration office. After 90 days I have too leave

Thailand, but when I get into the new country (ex Malaysia) I can ask for tourist visa again and get new

60 days + 30 days extending, All this without have to think about the 180 days.

How to run the system

If I start with Applying for a tourist visa I get my 60 days + 30 days. I can then do a VOA for a total

of 90 days. Then I can ask for 60 days + 30 days in ex. Malaysia. And so on!

Until they stop me!

People from my embassy in Thailand had a meeting with Immigration officers in Thailand on the 27. of September.

You are left back with the hope that the people working for the thai embassy and immigration wants you well!

Hope this help you guys too!

[Huckenfell]

I want to know how they intend on enforcing the 3 months money must be in your bank.

first I always assumed that the 800,000 was to be deposited into my bank and then I draw on it through out the year at 65,000/month so when time comes to renew I place the fresh money to top it up. NOW I will need to make sure I have 800,000 in the bank 3 months BEFORE I apply and not use any of it so I need to bring in over 950,000 3 months before the visa is up .

PLUS what if my extension is up this month or next month and as of now I don't have 800,000 in the bank.

will i be refused and given 7 days to sell my house, sell my car, pull my daughter out of international school, pack all my stuff and leave??

TOT

Surely the Thai immigration department will be able to make considerations for persons like yourself and concentrate on the not so genuine ones first. I am sure that there are many who take advantage of the previously easy going system and that there are many non-desirables living in Thailand. As i have already said, the authorities just need to consider each case, why seperate a man from his family when he does more good than harm to Thai society. My heart goes out to the genuine ones and as for the rest well, i would rather not say. these are the ones who have made it difficult for all.

Good luck everyone.