Koh Tao Murders: Defense Asks Court to Drop Charges

[catsanddogs]

No B2 DNA on the hoe handle

but plenty of others

They were able to identify David and Hannah's

Time to identify the others

Maybe they have. We don't know that Scotland Yard didn't have a few cotton swabs in their pockets whilst on Koh Tao.

[smedly]

The prosecution made no closing statement because there was nothing they could say of any substance, there was no way for them to compile anything to present to the court without verifying the nonsense they had already presented in evidence, an absolute disgrace

[khunken]

How anyone can honestly believe that the B2 are accessories let alone the guilty parties is one of the wonders of TV. Everything about the case stinks of ordered scapegoats of a non-Thai description all the way through botched and distorted 'investigation' by the scapegoat-loving RTP (mushroom pickers anyone?).

Pick on those least able to defend themselves, 'persuade' them to sign confessions and selectively use bits & pieces of 'evidence' to stitch a 'case' together and rely on a got at or biased judge. I hope the latter is not true as, if it is, it really is an open & shut case.

This trial will prove one way or another whether judges are allowed to give unbiased & legally correct verdicts in Thailand without on high or outside pressure.

I don't think that the verdict on 24th December is a deliberate effort to muffle reporting. This is a Buddist country and, notwithstanding retailers, Christmas is not recognised as a holiday here.

[Yann55]

It's not the first time I see this photo of the 're-enactment' and every time I feel utterly appalled.

This picture actually says it all - body language, face language, eye language - it's all there for the reading, and I can't bear to imagine what's going on in the head of those two guys who were working in Thailand, trying to make money for their families back home, until that fateful day ...

[Alwyn]

Thailand has lost all crdibility in this situation. Now it comes down to how do they lie their way out to save face in thailand only. The rest of the worid has accepted that the men charged are innocent and justice isnot being served.

How can you, or anyone else know what the "rest of the world" think and accept?

Apart from Thailand. Myanmar and the UK, the media interest won't be that great.

What is apparent is the total lack of professional competence within the RTP, from CSI, to following up and questioning witnesses and suspects, through to presenting evidence. Completely shambolic and clueless.

What they seem to be good at is allowing "interested" parties to direct their actions towards a conclusion that satisfies those parties and might appear to solve the case. They can't get away with it now as easily as the used to. But, they won't give a fig about what anyone outside of Thailand thinks; or anyone inside who isn't Thai and influential.

Feel for the bereaved families. The way this has all been conducted must make a nightmare scenario even worse.

w

It's not often you and I agree on much but I'm totally with you here, the other thing that people don't mention too much is the real offender is still walking the streets (if indeed these two lads are innocent, which appears likely)

[KamalaRider]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

The prosecution, to my knowledge, haven't produced a single DNA evidence against the B2 so you must mean someone elses semen?

Edited October 27, 2015 by KamalaRider

[beammeup]

Its not clear that they are innocent. What is clear is that the RTP have botched the case and mishandled the evidence. Looks like we will never know the truth. I think they should and probably will walk due to lack of evidence. If they are guilty this is a very sad state of affairs. I feel sorry for the families

[wabothai]

D-day for Thailand.

[Jonathon]

Probably all a cover up for the posh boys who actually did it and were given time to leave the island.

So I would not be unhappy to see these two acquitted.

Sadly not too much chance of the real culprits being exposed.

[AleG]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

The prosecution, to my knowledge, haven't produced a single DNA evidence against the B2 so you must mean someone elses semen?

The prosecution did produce the DNA evidence, that the defense essentially declined to contest directly, just saying that it should be thrown out because the results could be wrong doesn't count as reasonable doubt over its validity.

The DNA evidence being accepted, plus the other concordant evidence and circumstances is enough for a conviction, notwithstanding the defense saying there's no case to answer, but they would say that, wouldn't they?

The of course are all the obfuscations, for example the cell phone of one of the victims on the hands of the defendants being only a "tangential" issue, saying that the hoe DNA analysis results prove the innocence of the defendants or that allegedly not testing the clothes of the female victim was a serious oversight (as if semen inside the victim wasn't enough evidence to get things going ), etc, etc...

It's all dust being blown on people's eyes, it works because it panders to people's prejudices and emotions, not very likely IMHO to be a factor on the judge's decision.

The prosecution doesn't need to tart their case up; the DNA evidence is enough, that gets accepted they are guilty, simple as that. It was the defense job to prove the results were not valid, which objectively speaking they didn't; they didn't request a court order to get the chain of custody and other data they said they wanted, before they did ask for a court order to get the evidence retested, were granted it and then declined it, apparently they didn't even bother with a thorough cross examination of the people that did the DNA work.

The conclusion is obvious, the defense didn't want to touch the actual evidence and the issue of its validity with a ten foot pole and thought it better to just imply it could be wrong.

[AGareth2]

if the DNA test could be wrong

that by definition is reasonable doubt

End of story

[Travelman868]

It seems that with so many interested parties, and with a mountain of actual evidence actually shredding the prosecution's case entirely, the court has no option but to acquit be it on a technicality or whatever.

If they (the prosecution) fight the acquittal then it will show a lot of the RTP's approaches in an even worse light (unqualified translators, sub standard DNA testing capabilities etc).

Either way the Burmese guys'chances of a bright future are gone. Very sad

Just look at the boys faces in the pic. They are either innocent or psychopaths. Either way the case is a complete mess

[ianf]

Verdict was decided months ago.

How do you know?

[AGareth2]

The case is quite simple

identify the DNA on the hoe handle

[Briggsy]

For all the posters saying Dec 24th is not relevant in Buddhist Thailand have clearly never worked in Thailand. The last week of Dec and first week of Jan are now considered as full-on holiday periods. Almost all offices and factories

scale down,

run a skeleton staff,

experience a lot of annual leave from their staff

hold excursions

or similar non-work activities.

Middle class jump in their Fortuners and head up the northern mountains.

Working class head back to their villages.

December 24th is the perfect pick if you wish to bury the news both in the West and in Thailand.

[Gweiloman]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

If their (B2) semen was found inside Hannah, then nobody would have any doubts as to their guilt. But there's just one problem - their semen was not found inside Hannah.

Also, the Norfolk coroner's report (which I would believe more so than the Thai pathologist's) stated that there was no evidence of rape or necrophilia. So the B2 seems to be innocent of that too.

[AleG]

if the DNA test could be wrong

that by definition is reasonable doubt

End of story

Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

The defense saying it could be wrong because this or that alleged procedural shortcomings, no procedural shortcoming would produce a DNA match, let alone two, any more than dropping a box of letters would produce a Shakespeare sonnet.

The whole defense hopes for acquittal revolves around the unspoken allegation that the police and/or forensic analysts faked the results, and they (or anyone else) have produced absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that allegation.

[Gweiloman]

if the DNA test could be wrong

that by definition is reasonable doubt

End of story

Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

The defense saying it could be wrong because this or that alleged procedural shortcomings, no procedural shortcoming would produce a DNA match, let alone two, any more than dropping a box of letters would produce a Shakespeare sonnet.

The whole defense hopes for acquittal revolves around the unspoken allegation that the police and/or forensic analysts faked the results, and they (or anyone else) have produced absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that allegation.

The prosecution hopes for conviction on the basis of "because we say it is so" without being able to and/or bothered to produce any substantiated evidence. No matching prints or DNA on the alleged murder weapon, no eyewitnesses, no apparent motive and unsubstantiated and unverified claims of a DNA match that cannot be challenged due to the non-existence anymore of the source substance.

So you are right. Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

[smedly]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

The prosecution, to my knowledge, haven't produced a single DNA evidence against the B2 so you must mean someone elses semen?

The prosecution did produce the DNA evidence, that the defense essentially declined to contest directly, just saying that it should be thrown out because the results could be wrong doesn't count as reasonable doubt over its validity.

The DNA evidence being accepted, plus the other concordant evidence and circumstances is enough for a conviction, notwithstanding the defense saying there's no case to answer, but they would say that, wouldn't they?

The of course are all the obfuscations, for example the cell phone of one of the victims on the hands of the defendants being only a "tangential" issue, saying that the hoe DNA analysis results prove the innocence of the defendants or that allegedly not testing the clothes of the female victim was a serious oversight (as if semen inside the victim wasn't enough evidence to get things going ), etc, etc...

It's all dust being blown on people's eyes, it works because it panders to people's prejudices and emotions, not very likely IMHO to be a factor on the judge's decision.

The prosecution doesn't need to tart their case up; the DNA evidence is enough, that gets accepted they are guilty, simple as that. It was the defense job to prove the results were not valid, which objectively speaking they didn't; they didn't request a court order to get the chain of custody and other data they said they wanted, before they did ask for a court order to get the evidence retested, were granted it and then declined it, apparently they didn't even bother with a thorough cross examination of the people that did the DNA work.

The conclusion is obvious, the defense didn't want to touch the actual evidence and the issue of its validity with a ten foot pole and thought it better to just imply it could be wrong.

you keep claiming the prosecution presented dna evidence in court, I can tell you 100% they did not - fact

They made a claim there was a dna match, they presented no evidence - nothing none zero

two entirely different things

I don't know why you keep making statements like this

[LuckyNo4]

No!! nothing to do with it.

All i am saying that any evidence either way to do with DNA on/not on the hoe is inadmissible according to Pornthip's statement.

so along with the confessions and all other claimed dna evidence - none of it is admissible - where is the case against the accused ? it doesn't and never did exist

Whilst I completely agree, the fact that it is the RTP who are asserting that the B2 carried out the crimes, is the norm here for gaining a conviction. There doesn't have to be any evidence submitted, just their say-so. I am sure this trial has been a revelation to the Thai authorities who could not have thought that the case could or would be challenged. My concern is that the RTP will HAVE to be believed, to maintain their organisational credibility at all influential levels of Thai society, and therefore a guilty verdict should be expected - with the option of an appeal.

What a sick society we live in here in Thailand when they would rather destroy two young peoples lives rather than admit a <deleted> up. Disgusting!

[steven23]

If there is a justice and fairness in this world!!! If this can appear to people, I hope this case will be DROPPED !!!

[SamuiLoner]

Whatever the outcome, I wonder if the Department of Special Investigations (which incidentally is a department within the Ministry of Justice, the place where Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand is employed) will reinvestigate the case. What an interesting scenario that would be.

Take a look at the link to who the DSI are;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Special_Investigation

[steffi]

It sets a dangerous precedent to convict anybody based on recanted confessions as the most significant piece of evidence.

[wvavin]

If these two guys are to be found guilty, Thailand would certainly shamed to their toes in the eyes of the international community.

[boomerangutang]

The prosecution, to my knowledge, haven't produced a single DNA evidence against the B2 so you must mean someone elses semen?

The prosecution did produce the DNA evidence, that the defense essentially declined to contest directly, just saying that it should be thrown out because the results could be wrong doesn't count as reasonable doubt over its validity.

The DNA evidence being accepted, plus the other concordant evidence and circumstances is enough for a conviction, notwithstanding the defense saying there's no case to answer, but they would say that, wouldn't they?

The of course are all the obfuscations, for example the cell phone of one of the victims on the hands of the defendants being only a "tangential" issue, saying that the hoe DNA analysis results prove the innocence of the defendants or that allegedly not testing the clothes of the female victim was a serious oversight (as if semen inside the victim wasn't enough evidence to get things going ), etc, etc...

It's all dust being blown on people's eyes, it works because it panders to people's prejudices and emotions, not very likely IMHO to be a factor on the judge's decision.

The prosecution doesn't need to tart their case up; the DNA evidence is enough, that gets accepted they are guilty, simple as that. It was the defense job to prove the results were not valid, which objectively speaking they didn't; they didn't request a court order to get the chain of custody and other data they said they wanted, before they did ask for a court order to get the evidence retested, were granted it and then declined it, apparently they didn't even bother with a thorough cross examination of the people that did the DNA work.

The conclusion is obvious, the defense didn't want to touch the actual evidence and the issue of its validity with a ten foot pole and thought it better to just imply it could be wrong.

you keep claiming the prosecution presented dna evidence in court, I can tell you 100% they did not - fact

They made a claim there was a dna match, they presented no evidence - nothing none zero - two entirely different things. I don't know why you keep making statements like this.

I don't like to gang up on anyone in a blog, but I have to agree with Smedly and KR. AleG, as far as we can tell, from watching the trial, the prosecution/RTP were not able to come forth with any tangible evidence of DNA being/found in Hannah. All they submitted to the court was hearsay based on their frame-up agenda. How can the defense test something that doesn't exist? The judge said in late April that the defense can get key DNA re-tested. Then he said 'no. Not until the trial starts on July 8.' The trial started, and there was still confusion and obfuscation. Top RTP investigators said DNA evidence was lost or 'used up'. Chief cop said 'nothing was lost' (though where's the crucial blond hair?). It's no surprise the defense finally threw up their hands and said, 'no thanks' about re-testing the DNA: IT'S BECAUSE THERE WERE NO SAMPLES FROM HANNAH TO TEST. ...and whatever RTP could scrape up was suspect because of their reputation for skewing/losing data.

Near the end of the trial, the defense had a DNA expert flown in from Australia to testify. All she requested was some evidence of a DNA trail from the prosecution/RTP. Surprise! prosecution couldn't come up with any. NOTHING.

[boomerangutang]

Why do we hear nothing from Ms Pontip about DNA found in Hannah? Same from 80 page autopsy from Britain. If nothing can be found by experts, then it's fair to assume nothing was there to be found.

DNA found in/on Hannah is the only thread of evidence the prosecution have. If it turns out there was no semen, then the prosecution is only left with a confession based on torture, and a phone which may have been David's - found 60 meters from the crime scene by one of the defendants, 30 to 80 minutes before the crime. At worst, Wei was a petty thief. Fine him Bt.500. Then compensate the B2 a million baht each for imprisonment under false pretenses - and get outside detectives on the scene to find the real criminals.

[catsanddogs]

if the DNA test could be wrong

that by definition is reasonable doubt

End of story

Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

The defense saying it could be wrong because this or that alleged procedural shortcomings, no procedural shortcoming would produce a DNA match, let alone two, any more than dropping a box of letters would produce a Shakespeare sonnet.

The whole defense hopes for acquittal revolves around the unspoken allegation that the police and/or forensic analysts faked the results, and they (or anyone else) have produced absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that allegation.

The prosecution hopes for conviction on the basis of "because we say it is so" without being able to and/or bothered to produce any substantiated evidence. No matching prints or DNA on the alleged murder weapon, no eyewitnesses, no apparent motive and unsubstantiated and unverified claims of a DNA match that cannot be challenged due to the non-existence anymore of the source substance.

So you are right. Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

DNA from Hannah's clothes would have wrapped this case up last year. But Hannah's clothes went missing following the Thai autopsy. This single point is enough to make any person in their right mind believe the real murderers are being protected. Professional uncorrupted police forces don't lose a murdered persons clothes. Forensics don't just lose clothes following an autopsy. The clothes were destroyed deliberately. Notice how the 'evidence' the police want to bring to light to support their lies is placed conveniently for all to see - the hoe (which had no DNA of the B2 on it) - the phone in the plastic bag (which seemingly had no fingerprinting evidence). No clothes though because they would have been teeming with the killers DNA.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Katherine Horton murder has an eerie resemblance. Botched investigation, cover-up, police suspect, multiple foreigner suspects. An order from then Pm Thaksin to quickly solve the murder. In the End they got a confession from two Thai fishermen who swam to shore after watching porn movies on their fishing boat. The trail lasted 1 freaking day!

Edited October 27, 2015 by Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I think most the critics leaning towards a guilty verdict must remember that this trial is probably the longest trial in Thai criminal court history vs a few days when a confession has been obtained. Fierce international scrutiny and a defense team not court appointed and supported by international agencies. Oh Nellie! This is the mother of all trials. Thailand cares about its face but it's funny how money makes a red face return to normal again. Tourism money brings a smile. There's a lot more riding on this decision with all the holes shot thru the prosecution's so called solid case. No one blames the pm for having faith in his people. He and others jumped to conclusions before the actual evidence was presented in court. Forgiven. To make sure it doesn't happen again the pm should can those who botched the investigation. Nothing like double egg on a Pm's face. This verdict will be many pages long so by the time the judge is finished reading it not guilty will be the only sensible verdict.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

if the DNA test could be wrong

that by definition is reasonable doubt

End of story

Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

The defense saying it could be wrong because this or that alleged procedural shortcomings, no procedural shortcoming would produce a DNA match, let alone two, any more than dropping a box of letters would produce a Shakespeare sonnet.

The whole defense hopes for acquittal revolves around the unspoken allegation that the police and/or forensic analysts faked the results, and they (or anyone else) have produced absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that allegation.

The prosecution hopes for conviction on the basis of "because we say it is so" without being able to and/or bothered to produce any substantiated evidence. No matching prints or DNA on the alleged murder weapon, no eyewitnesses, no apparent motive and unsubstantiated and unverified claims of a DNA match that cannot be challenged due to the non-existence anymore of the source substance.

So you are right. Saying something is so without a reason is not reasonable.

DNA from Hannah's clothes would have wrapped this case up last year. But Hannah's clothes went missing following the Thai autopsy. This single point is enough to make any person in their right mind believe the real murderers are being protected. Professional uncorrupted police forces don't lose a murdered persons clothes. Forensics don't just lose clothes following an autopsy. The clothes were destroyed deliberately. Notice how the 'evidence' the police want to bring to light to support their lies is placed conveniently for all to see - the hoe (which had no DNA of the B2 on it) - the phone in the plastic bag (which seemingly had no fingerprinting evidence). No clothes though because they would have been teeming with the killers DNA.

Yup.. Wrapped up last year but someone paid a lot of money for some bloody clothes not wearable.