National Park Experience

[LivinLOS]

Whether he could con his way into getting the Thai rate or whether they might mistake him as being a Thai National or not is irrelevant because the regulation is about Nationality, not race. Do Southern Muslim's, Northern hilltribe people, mixed-race Thai Nationals, or foreigners that have acquired Thai Citizenship get the Thai rate? I think so. I would be very surprised if any park staff ever said 'you whitey, you pay more', so I can only assume that is just you being a drama queen, or possibly being the consequence of you having read too many comics.

See my posts about testing with a obviously non Thai asian, no Thai langauge and no Thai ID.. But usually Thai price..

Given that is 100% witnessed fact please explain how that isnt simply race ?? they knew she wasnt Thai, but she got the local rate anyway..

[White Christmas13]

What happens when families of Thai and non Thai try to enter national parks? Our son is 3 so no Thai ID. He looks foreign so what do they charge? How do they determine Thai and foreign?

They take a DNA

[Chiengmaijoe]

Whether he could con his way into getting the Thai rate or whether they might mistake him as being a Thai National or not is irrelevant because the regulation is about Nationality, not race. Do Southern Muslim's, Northern hilltribe people, mixed-race Thai Nationals, or foreigners that have acquired Thai Citizenship get the Thai rate? I think so. I would be very surprised if any park staff ever said 'you whitey, you pay more', so I can only assume that is just you being a drama queen, or possibly being the consequence of you having read too many comics.

See my posts about testing with a obviously non Thai asian, no Thai langauge and no Thai ID.. But usually Thai price..

Given that is 100% witnessed fact please explain how that isnt simply race ?? they knew she wasnt Thai, but she got the local rate anyway..

Maybe they fancied her, maybe they thought she couldn't afford the full amount and were being sympathetic. If she was Japanese would she have got the Thai rate? Either way, the regulations are about Nationality. How they are interpreted at different parks by different staff is another matter. And ...... you did say 'usually'. I noticed.

I'll repeat my statement above. What price would a westerner with Thai Nationality pay? Or half Thai-half foreigner Thai National? Now tell me it's only about race.

[Spaniel]

I don't like the two tier pricing system at the parks. My Thai wife and I go to the parks several times a year on camping trips mainly to Khao Yai and Doi Inthanon and most time I get in for the Thai price by showing my Thai drivers liscense and letting my wife do the talking. Most recently I entered the Erawan NP back in August for the Thai price. I think a lot depends on how nicely you talk to the gate attendant.

It has already been pointed out that it is nothing to do with having a driving licence or not, sweet-talking or not, there is a new directive. From the topic about Doi Inthanon ...... not much room for debate here...

doi inthanon.jpg

I was just stating my own experiences.

[Fairynuff]

I don't believe discrimination is ever right so I'd never be comfortable with that, whether it's me or someone else being discriminated against.

Can you understand that not everyone sees it as 'discrimination?'

No, because it IS discrimination

[Fairynuff]

Why should foreigners in Thailand - mostly farang with 2-3x purchasing power of local population be allowed to pay the same price as Thais?

The locals are likely spending 1/3rd of a day's wages to bring their family to the park, and as a farang who can easily afford the higher entrance fee, why would you expect to pay the same price as them?

If everyone paid the same price, Thais and foreigners alike, the prices would inevitably increase faster than the local consumer could afford.

Oh yes, how silly of me, I completely forgot that there are no rich Thai people. All the big cars and big houses are foreign owned. All the huge companies in Thailand are owned by foreigners.i should remind myself of that when I spend time with my Thai friends who have the kind of money I'll only ever have in my dreams

What percentage of the population are rich Thais and are those the one's that frequent the national parks?

The number of farang living in Thailand who enjoy 2-3x purchasing power of most Thais while taking advantage of the country's infrastructure and paying no taxes far exceeds the number of rich Thais, let alone those frequenting national parks.

May I suggest that you open your eyes and look around you

[Fairynuff]

For those of you who think I'm not happy here because I talk about discrimination, I'm not unhappy living here, I have a great life. I have always challenged discrimination, I did it back home and I do it here because it's wrong. If you're happy to be discriminated against then I'm happy with your choice, but I also think you're weird!

[FolkGuitar]

I don't believe discrimination is ever right so I'd never be comfortable with that, whether it's me or someone else being discriminated against.

Can you understand that not everyone sees it as 'discrimination?'

No, because it IS discrimination

You probably think the police are only ticketing foreigners at the check points as well, right? And the girl in the gas station only short-changes farangs.

Maybe they are ALL out to get you!

For those of you who think I'm not happy here because I talk about discrimination, I'm not unhappy living here, I have a great life.

Except that in your own words, "I don't believe discrimination is ever right so I'd never be comfortable with that." And if, as you say, discrimination exists here, then you are never comfortable. How does that fit into your 'great life?' Your great life is never comfortable? I think you and I might have different criteria for 'a great life.'

[curtklay]

Once a discussion has declined to the point where all you can say is "if you don't like it, go back where you came from", then there truly is nothing left to say.

[Fairynuff]

I don't believe discrimination is ever right so I'd never be comfortable with that, whether it's me or someone else being discriminated against.

Can you understand that not everyone sees it as 'discrimination?'

No, because it IS discrimination

You probably think the police are only ticketing foreigners at the check points as well, right? And the girl in the gas station only short-changes farangs.

Maybe they are ALL out to get you!

For those of you who think I'm not happy here because I talk about discrimination, I'm not unhappy living here, I have a great life.

Except that in your own words, "I don't believe discrimination is ever right so I'd never be comfortable with that." And if, as you say, discrimination exists here, then you are never comfortable. How does that fit into your 'great life?' Your great life is never comfortable? I think you and I might have different criteria for 'a great life.'

As long as my life never becomes anything like yours then yep...I'm definitely happy

[Mudcrab]

Thought the Thai Driver License you pay same guess not TIT

I wonder if, instead of a Thai Driver's License, you had shown a Thai Work Permit? As a worker in Thailand, you pay Thai taxes. As a retired expat you don't. I can understand the desire to charge more to those who don't contribute to the upkeep of the park. When I had my business here in Chiang Mai, I would always bring my Work Permit booklet with me when we went to National Parks. Always paid the same rate as the Thais. Never any questions about it.

It's the same as a Resident Fishing License or Resident Hunting License being much less expensive than the Non-Resident ones, sometimes hundreds of dollars less. Or charging a higher tuition for classes in a state-run educational facility to someone from out of state. These are normal charges in most countries, but for some reason, folks here think that there is something unusual about them. If you help pay for the maintenance of the parks through taxes, you 'shouldn't' have to pay. If you do, then something is indeed wrong with the system. But just showing a Drivers License doesn't prove you are contributing to the system. It only means you live here.

what a pointless and stupid statement from you, how you can say by nationality who contribute more to thai tax system? a foreigner who stay 4 weeks in a hotel and spent lets say 200 USD in restaurants and shops, pay more tax than 50% of all thai in 1 year. and foreigner who live here for sure they spent more tax than 80% of all thais.

Its not about who pay tax, it is a discrimination by race and nationality.

Chargng somebody different price for the same product is a crime in western countrys if it is done by nationality. And there is no reason why a foreigner should pay more. National parks are built for Thais, to educate them about the country where they live. They are not built to entertain tourists.

Never heard of geographical pricing huh?

Look at the price of an iPhone in the US and then look at the price in Australia, or for that matter, Thailand.

Price difference based on location.

Is this discrimination?

No, this is called accepted business practices.

You don't want to pay the price? No problem, don't buy the product.

Same principle.

[TheSiemReaper]

I'm fully in support of dual-pricing for national parks, etc. and wish that my own government did the same. I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3. It's not racism it's simply shifting the burden of upkeeping tourist sites onto tourists. (And yes, even if you've been an expat here for 3 decades and are about to launch into an exciting lecture on how much tax you've paid - you're stil a tourist).

[chuang]

Suggest check the admission prices before going. This kind of thread has been going around here donkey times.

[Cake Monster]

If the entrance price to the park was set at 20 Baht for Thai,s, and you only paid 100 baht, consider yourself lucky.

Some months ago, Prayut issued a mandate to all the operators of the National Parks within Thai borders to charge " Farang " 10 times, ( yes- 10 ) times the entrance price of Thai visitors.

I really hope that all the travel guides pick up on this overcharging issue.

[Ricardo]

I'm fully in support of dual-pricing for national parks, etc. and wish that my own government did the same. I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3. It's not racism it's simply shifting the burden of upkeeping tourist sites onto tourists. (And yes, even if you've been an expat here for 3 decades and are about to launch into an exciting lecture on how much tax you've paid - you're stil a tourist).

"I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3"

And when it's an extra $10+ ?

And when it's not all tourists, but just foreign ones, plus foreigners who live here, but not people from say Bangkok, where everyone is rich too ?

And when it gives the country a reputation for being racist, still support it ?

[TheSiemReaper]

I'm fully in support of dual-pricing for national parks, etc. and wish that my own government did the same. I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3. It's not racism it's simply shifting the burden of upkeeping tourist sites onto tourists. (And yes, even if you've been an expat here for 3 decades and are about to launch into an exciting lecture on how much tax you've paid - you're stil a tourist).

"I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3"

And when it's an extra $10+ ?

And when it's not all tourists, but just foreign ones, plus foreigners who live here, but not people from say Bangkok, where everyone is rich too ?

And when it gives the country a reputation for being racist, still support it ?

Even if it were an extra $100. Locals aren't tourists - they're locals. They already pay into a system for all their lives which should be designed to benefit them as citizens. It only "gives the country a reputation for being racist' in the minds of pathetic skinflints - the kind of tourists that Thailand can now afford to live without.

[Nowisee]

You have a lot of replies on this post, many are quite assumptive and most I don't agree with. You seem to have an agenda... I wonder why this topic winds you up so much?

One last note....

Please permit me to say 'Thank you' to all of you who refuse to visit the national parks. It really makes it just so much nicer for those of us who enjoy them.

Be it a racist plot, a nationalistic purge, or just a way to make extra money for the Thais, frankly, I DON'T CARE.

The extra few hundred baht is no skin off my nose compared with the enjoyment I get when visiting the various parks and attraction around the Kingdom. The fact that I've been living here for 15 years and paying a few bits extra for my pleasure is simply not a hardship to me. I'm sorry if it is to you. There are far more important things in life to pay attention to than looking for ways to be unhappy.

The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude ABOUT the problem.

[SoiBiker]

You have a lot of replies on this post, many are quite assumptive and most I don't agree with. You seem to have an agenda... I wonder why this topic winds you up so much?

One last note....

Please permit me to say 'Thank you' to all of you who refuse to visit the national parks. It really makes it just so much nicer for those of us who enjoy them.

Be it a racist plot, a nationalistic purge, or just a way to make extra money for the Thais, frankly, I DON'T CARE.

The extra few hundred baht is no skin off my nose compared with the enjoyment I get when visiting the various parks and attraction around the Kingdom. The fact that I've been living here for 15 years and paying a few bits extra for my pleasure is simply not a hardship to me. I'm sorry if it is to you. There are far more important things in life to pay attention to than looking for ways to be unhappy.

The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude ABOUT the problem.

It gets a little tedious seeing people shout 'racism' every time a Thai as much as looks at them funny. Even more so when they entirely fail to grasp the concept being discussed.

[StefanBBK]

I'm fully in support of dual-pricing for national parks, etc. and wish that my own government did the same. I'm happy to pay an extra $2-$3. It's not racism it's simply shifting the burden of upkeeping tourist sites onto tourists. (And yes, even if you've been an expat here for 3 decades and are about to launch into an exciting lecture on how much tax you've paid - you're stil a tourist).

I agree with the better part of your post. But instead of charging more, giving Citizens and local Tax payers a Discount would go down better with me.

And this should be applied to state subsidized venues only.

I am sort of fine with National parks, but detest certain Aquariums, Waterparks etc.

[FolkGuitar]

You have a lot of replies on this post, many are quite assumptive and most I don't agree with. You seem to have an agenda... I wonder why this topic winds you up so much?

One last note....

Please permit me to say 'Thank you' to all of you who refuse to visit the national parks. It really makes it just so much nicer for those of us who enjoy them.

Be it a racist plot, a nationalistic purge, or just a way to make extra money for the Thais, frankly, I DON'T CARE.

The extra few hundred baht is no skin off my nose compared with the enjoyment I get when visiting the various parks and attraction around the Kingdom. The fact that I've been living here for 15 years and paying a few bits extra for my pleasure is simply not a hardship to me. I'm sorry if it is to you. There are far more important things in life to pay attention to than looking for ways to be unhappy.

The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude ABOUT the problem.

I'll answer your question, as it's a fair one...

As an American, I've chosen to live in foreign countries. I did so because I wanted to experience those countries. I didn't want to bring America with me. I didn't want to force those countries to change to meet American standards. I realized that I will never be a native of these countries, and that's OK. I didn't expect to be. I'm comfortable being a foreigner. Despite the rants of many people in ThaiVisa, I don't feel threatened by Thai culture, I don't feel that Thai culture 'targets' me for negative treatment. Nor do I feel that living within Thai culture negatively impacts my life in any way. If it did, I wouldn't stay in Thailand. Obviously, you feel differently, as you disagree with my position.

I am constantly amazed at how vociferous some TV members are about how badly they are treated by Thais, yet they stay in Thailand. Is Thailand their personal 'hangnail' to be tugged upon every time they begin to be comfortable? Yeah... 'amazed' is the correct word. I don't have enough psychological training (despite degrees in the field) to fully comprehend the motivation to stay in a situation in which they are clearly uncomfortable!

I've answered your question. Please answer mine; why would someone insist on changing a country that clearly is not their own? Why impose your Western values on a people who quite clearly don't want them? The simple answer that 'my values are the right ones' led to the extermination of countless cultures all over the world. Are you trying to do that here? If you don't like the way it is, leave. Don't try to change what the rest of the population is happy with.

Edited October 29, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[SoiBiker]

But instead of charging more, giving Citizens and local Tax payers a Discount would go down better with me.

So instead of charging non-Thais more, you want to charge Thais less?

Surely that amounts to exactly the same thing?

[hugh2121]

This is not unique to Thailand, many countries outside the Western world have this policy. India, Costa Rica, the list goes on. Don't see it as a Thai problem.

It is done to the tourists in Hawaii as well.

Ohh!! Shock horror!

If America practices this racial discrimination it must be OK then?????

Tell that to the EU where it is ILLEGAL!!!

How exactly does charging foreigner more than locals count as Racial Discrimination? It may be discrimination, but's it's not racial. Unless, of course, you believe that there is a race called "non-Thai".

In case you had not noticed, there are very many races other than Thai. These races are all being discriminated against, hence racial discrimination.

Now is that still too difficult for you to understand or would you like me list all those races in alphabetical order??????

[FolkGuitar]

How exactly does charging foreigner more than locals count as Racial Discrimination? It may be discrimination, but's it's not racial. Unless, of course, you believe that there is a race called "non-Thai".

In case you had not noticed, there are very many races other than Thai. These races are all being discriminated against, hence racial discrimination.

Now is that still too difficult for you to understand or would you like me list all those races in alphabetical order??????

Your list would be very short;

Caucasian,

Mongoloid

Negroid

Australoid.

"Thai" is not a race. It's a nationality. There are lots and lots of nationalities if you'd like to list those for us.

Edited October 29, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[LivinLOS]

For those of you who think I'm not happy here because I talk about discrimination, I'm not unhappy living here, I have a great life. I have always challenged discrimination, I did it back home and I do it here because it's wrong. If you're happy to be discriminated against then I'm happy with your choice, but I also think you're weird!

Excatly !!! Give that man a cigar..

This isnt about walking around with a scowl waving some colonial beating stick at the natives.. But some things are right and wrong.. Not 'just are'..

Animal cruelty is wrong, I react heavily when its seen and dont 'walk on by' (same as in the west btw).. I do my best to make ethical purchasing decisions.. I would aboslutely be involved if I thought I witnessed child abuse or other situations.. These things are not 'just cultural'.. I dont change my morals depending on where I am.

I dont agree with discrinatory practices and try to avoid supporting them.. I am the same when it comes to seeing how Thais discrinminate against Shan / Thai Yai / or immgrants.. I would absolutely not pay my burmese gardener less than a thai one simply because hes Burmese and I can abuse him and hes got less chances.. Thats not how a fair social system should be. when things are unfair or go against my beliefs, I oppose them.. thats how they change !!

[LivinLOS]

Thought the Thai Driver License you pay same guess not TIT

I wonder if, instead of a Thai Driver's License, you had shown a Thai Work Permit? As a worker in Thailand, you pay Thai taxes. As a retired expat you don't. I can understand the desire to charge more to those who don't contribute to the upkeep of the park. When I had my business here in Chiang Mai, I would always bring my Work Permit booklet with me when we went to National Parks. Always paid the same rate as the Thais. Never any questions about it.

It's the same as a Resident Fishing License or Resident Hunting License being much less expensive than the Non-Resident ones, sometimes hundreds of dollars less. Or charging a higher tuition for classes in a state-run educational facility to someone from out of state. These are normal charges in most countries, but for some reason, folks here think that there is something unusual about them. If you help pay for the maintenance of the parks through taxes, you 'shouldn't' have to pay. If you do, then something is indeed wrong with the system. But just showing a Drivers License doesn't prove you are contributing to the system. It only means you live here.

what a pointless and stupid statement from you, how you can say by nationality who contribute more to thai tax system? a foreigner who stay 4 weeks in a hotel and spent lets say 200 USD in restaurants and shops, pay more tax than 50% of all thai in 1 year. and foreigner who live here for sure they spent more tax than 80% of all thais.

Its not about who pay tax, it is a discrimination by race and nationality.

Chargng somebody different price for the same product is a crime in western countrys if it is done by nationality. And there is no reason why a foreigner should pay more. National parks are built for Thais, to educate them about the country where they live. They are not built to entertain tourists.

Never heard of geographical pricing huh?

Look at the price of an iPhone in the US and then look at the price in Australia, or for that matter, Thailand.

Price difference based on location.

Is this discrimination?

No, this is called accepted business practices.

You don't want to pay the price? No problem, don't buy the product.

Same principle.

What nonsense..

Thats like saying an australian cant buy an iphone in the USA.. Or I cant buy the item and mail order it..

Local pricing depends on many variables, including local taxes (that as I keep pointing we do pay, when buying things like iphones, which we tend to do more of than 'average' thais) but the sale is not conditional on my race or skin color or source of passport.

[SoiBiker]

I dont agree with discrinatory practices and try to avoid supporting them..

Then presumably you also boycott any business that offers a discount to students? Or pensioners? Or practices any other form of differential pricing?

[LivinLOS]

I'll answer your question, as it's a fair one...

As an American, I've chosen to live in foreign countries. I did so because I wanted to experience those countries. I didn't want to bring America with me. I didn't want to force those countries to change to meet American standards. I realized that I will never be a native of these countries, and that's OK. I didn't expect to be. I'm comfortable being a foreigner. Despite the rants of many people in ThaiVisa, I don't feel threatened by Thai culture, I don't feel that Thai culture 'targets' me for negative treatment. Nor do I feel that living within Thai culture negatively impacts my life in any way. If it did, I wouldn't stay in Thailand. Obviously, you feel differently, as you disagree with my position.

So your just fine with Chinese dog torture then ?? boiling them alive in oil and taking flaming torches to live dogs ??

That OK as you dont try to export your morals on them ??

Weak sauce..

[LivinLOS]

But instead of charging more, giving Citizens and local Tax payers a Discount would go down better with me.

So instead of charging non-Thais more, you want to charge Thais less?

Surely that amounts to exactly the same thing?

Yeah I am OK with that..

As I have pointed out.. we are ALL taxpayers here.. the income tax element of Thai taxation is just a fraction, the average western resident contributes multiples in taxes than the average Thai but hey ho..

Malaysia has a similar residents card.. (as does Indo but thier pricing system is also grab what you can).. Government and tourist attractions have dual pricing but based clearly on where you live.. Tourists pay more, residents dont. Be they Indian Western Asian or whoever.. They have a more multicultural population and hence have set a system up.. Its fair.. It works.. I have no problem as a tourist in Malaysia paying the correct price as a visitor and if I went to malaysia and invested in the MM2H program and became legal there, I would have the exact same benefits.

[LivinLOS]

I dont agree with discrinatory practices and try to avoid supporting them..

Then presumably you also boycott any business that offers a discount to students? Or pensioners? Or practices any other form of differential pricing?

If they were only for 'white' students.. Or only for 'asian' students.. then hell yes..

Let us not forget there is in all practical respects no path to citizenship available to most of us.. Using the justification that it is innocently citizen based, when in practice asians are simply given the ticket anyway, and caucasians on avarage cannot ever be a citizen.. Is simply trying to hide the profiling the same as putting the numbers in outdated unused Thai numerals.

So if you are bothering to read my posts you see I am not against differential pricing at all.. I would not be as strongly against it (mildly so due to the previous tax explanation) if they said OK work permits and tax records (and PR holders) accepted.. But they dont. You can be a born in country grown up all your life here PR status, but if you have a white face, you wont get the ticket. Asian face, even not speaking Thai, yes you (usually) do.

[SoiBiker]

But instead of charging more, giving Citizens and local Tax payers a Discount would go down better with me.

So instead of charging non-Thais more, you want to charge Thais less?

Surely that amounts to exactly the same thing?

Yeah I am OK with that..

As I have pointed out.. we are ALL taxpayers here.. the income tax element of Thai taxation is just a fraction, the average western resident contributes multiples in taxes than the average Thai but hey ho..

Malaysia has a similar residents card.. (as does Indo but thier pricing system is also grab what you can).. Government and tourist attractions have dual pricing but based clearly on where you live.. Tourists pay more, residents dont. Be they Indian Western Asian or whoever.. They have a more multicultural population and hence have set a system up.. Its fair.. It works.. I have no problem as a tourist in Malaysia paying the correct price as a visitor and if I went to malaysia and invested in the MM2H program and became legal there, I would have the exact same benefits.

So you're ok with discrimination as long as it doesn't affect you?