Thai men: brave, hardworking or just plain silly?

[JohnDodd]

I'm neither Thai or stupid, but I once climbed from the crosstrees to the foretop mast by climbing hand o/v hand up the wire stays that were shackled to edge of the crosstrees in order to change a navigation bulb. Reason for potentially dangerous action, I was a 20 year old A.B. and thought I was indestructive, also the 'dummy' gantline usually left rigged through a sheave at the mast top had broken when we attempted to reeve a new gantline. On board m/v Hazelmoor, midipacific bound for yokohama with a cargo of sugar from Cienfuegos, Cuba, '66.........@craig krup, absolutely spot on,....The greatest threat to Civilization is Man's innate hostility towards other men...... S. Freud : Civilization and its discontents.

[Broken Record]

If you cant or wont, then you'll have problems and probably end up frustrated and moaning about how bad everything is.

And spend every waking hour on an anonymous internet forum whining about how unfair it all is to have to live here in such conditions.

[elgordo38]

Not hard to understand. Safety is just another luxury not widely available in relatively poor countries.

Fair comment.

But whatever happened to common sense?

Common sense is a good thing but unfortunately it will not put meals on the table or a roof over your head. Why do you think so many Thais beg borrow and well you know to put some capital together to go to Korea and other Asian countries to work. My g/f has a friend working on a chicken farm in Korea making 60,000 bahts a month plus room and board. She started off at 40,000 there. My g/f's brother works here as a car mechanic for 15,000 bahts a month with no paid mandatory overtime. You do the math. Slave labor has been much in the news here lately unfortunately there are different levels from mild to extreme.

Edited November 12, 2015 by elgordo38

[Briggsy]

I'm neither Thai or stupid, but I once climbed from the crosstrees to the foretop mast by climbing hand o/v hand up the wire stays that were shackled to edge of the crosstrees in order to change a navigation bulb. Reason for potentially dangerous action, I was a 20 year old A.B. and thought I was indestructive, also the 'dummy' gantline usually left rigged through a sheave at the mast top had broken when we attempted to reeve a new gantline. On board m/v Hazelmoor, midipacific bound for yokohama with a cargo of sugar from Cienfuegos, Cuba, '66.........@craig krup, absolutely spot on,....The greatest threat to Civilization is Man's innate hostility towards other men...... S. Freud : Civilization and its discontents.

Have you escaped from the mariner's sub-forum again?

[elgordo38]

Not hard to understand. Safety is just another luxury not widely available in relatively poor countries.

Fair comment.

But whatever happened to common sense?

Common sense , aka known as elf n safety , comes at a price.

Alas EU . is burdened with safety requirements , and compensation claims , making EU industry uncompetitive .

The recent VW , emission issue , is a polluted joke .

Growth economies ,such as India , China , Indonesia . Thailand , etc.

are not burdened with these rules , in summary , the workers in unregulated industries ,

die a premature death . Who cares?? , Profit comes first .

The sad part is that employers in the West want to lower the standards there to the standards here which are non existent. Once Western employers have brought their workers to heel and stripped them of benefits and pensions lowered wages over time work will migrate back to Western shores. When we look at VW and big bank fines shenanigans its only the tip of the iceberg of the skullduggery going on in the business world. Western businesses are just a tad slicker in how they cover up their thievery. They big business have refined their illegal operations to the point where slow moving governments with outdated methods and leaner payrolls just cannot keep up. They have been left in the dust. They only manage to catch a few fish out of a barrel full.

[elgordo38]

Is "plain silly" the answer?

"Plain silly" is a wrong answer for a serious problem.

[elgordo38]

My wife lets my 3 year old daughter sit in the front seat. I told her millions of times that the air bag can kill her. Her reply was that she drives carefully and my daughter is wearing a good luck amulet and not to worry.

Just about sums up Thainess I guess. Well guess its time to go look for a 4 leaf clover.

[billd766]

the problem is if they introduce regulations for safety etc it will start to raise the prices of everything which will then be another moaner for all those that want it to be cheap here, you cant start to add western values in the workplace etc without also raising all the related costs. It would be the same if people demanded qualified tradesmen be used in building, the prices would skyrocket, health and safety would do the same as it would add extra costs into the pricing structure. Unfortunately we cant have it both ways if the thais/westerners want the prices to remain low which makes if very prickly

There have been lots of threads on TVF that start "where can I get the cheapest.....................?

If you get the cheapest then somebody along the line somewhere will have paid for it in pain.

[billd766]

only in America....

European immigrant workers........

I read somewhere a while ago that the best and safest guys doing that job were North American Indians.

http://www.whitewolfpack.com/2012/09/the-mohawks-who-built-manhattan-photos.html

Mohawks have been building skyscrapers for six generations. The first workers came from the Kahn­awake Reservation near Montreal, where in 1886 the Canadian Pacific Railroad sought to construct a cantilever bridge across the St. Lawrence River, landing on reservation property. In exchange for use of the Mohawks’ land, the railroad and its contractor, the Dominion Bridge Co., agreed to employ tribesmen during construction.

The builders had intended to use the Indians as labourers to unload supplies, but that didn’t satisfy the Mohawks. Members of the tribe would go out on the bridge during construction every chance they got, according to an unnamed Dominion Bridge Co. official quoted in a 1949 New Yorker article by Joseph Mitchell (“The Mohawks in High Steel,” later collected in the 1960 book Apologies to the Iroquois, by Edmund Wilson). “It was quite impossible to keep them off,” the Dominion official said.

[jamie2009]

I was serving my apprenticeship in the UK in the late sixties early seventies, hard hats, safety boots, scaffold were non existent. If you needed access it was a pallet on a fork lift, no safety harness. Working from ladders/steps some 3 metres high was common practice. Over the years various degree of PPE was introduced to the extent on sites now steps/ladders are banned only to be used where a scaffold can't be erected, if using steps/ladders, safety harness. The full regalia is, Hard Hat, Safety Boots with steel plated sole, Coveralls, sleeves rolled down, Safety Specs, Gloves and if in a noisy area Ear Defenders.

I believe over the years they have gone over the top now Risk Assements, Method Statements and Permit to Work for every task. Has it cut done on accidents, to be honest I never remember any fatalities or serious injuries before all this.

Of course there is the liability thing which is a factor as companies are frightened about getting sued if some one trips over a feather.

It will take years to introduce here, if you high light a safety issue in Thailand, the usual reply is, what's the problem ? Is because labour is cheap, life is cheap here and poorly educated construction workers ?

[chrisinth]

I was serving my apprenticeship in the UK in the late sixties early seventies, hard hats, safety boots, scaffold were non existent. If you needed access it was a pallet on a fork lift, no safety harness. Working from ladders/steps some 3 metres high was common practice. Over the years various degree of PPE was introduced to the extent on sites now steps/ladders are banned only to be used where a scaffold can't be erected, if using steps/ladders, safety harness. The full regalia is, Hard Hat, Safety Boots with steel plated sole, Coveralls, sleeves rolled down, Safety Specs, Gloves and if in a noisy area Ear Defenders.

I believe over the years they have gone over the top now Risk Assements, Method Statements and Permit to Work for every task. Has it cut done on accidents, to be honest I never remember any fatalities or serious injuries before all this.

Of course there is the liability thing which is a factor as companies are frightened about getting sued if some one trips over a feather.

It will take years to introduce here, if you high light a safety issue in Thailand, the usual reply is, what's the problem ? Is because labour is cheap, life is cheap here and poorly educated construction workers ?

Nail, head, hammer.......................

Hope you were wearing your safety glasses when you were writing that..............................

[kannot]

The difference is Education, Training and awareness. That's what the "nanny" states drum into you..

Thailand, sadly, not so much.

Perhaps but I think it's much deeper than that here.

Thailand still retains a lot of the feudal culture mentality.

Peasant lives don't really matter much here, do they?

Look at the way pedestrians are treated here. They are seen as expendable peasants.

If you actually kill one assuming you don't flee the scene (so common here and almost seen as normal and acceptable) ... what does it cost you, 5000 baht, if that?

The man changing the bulb was an expendable peasant and for him to stand up and say I want the tools to do this safely, even if he had that spark of intelligence / self worth valuing of his how own life in him which is very doubtful, he'd be out of his rice bowl right quick.

Sorry, yes I live here and nobody is making me live here, but I'm never going to admire that part of this culture which is like that.

Cheers.

Ditch the western mindset, and consider how your average Thai views this life, the next life and the one before.

Thais arent burdened with concepts such as original sin, purgatory or hell.

This life is nothing more than a vehicle that carries them to the next.

none of which exist making it even more stupid

[mihalis]

true, you wouldnt see a farang do the same, as most would just ignore it... Stupid is stupid, not an ethnic issue...

[telldem]

My wife lets my 3 year old daughter sit in the front seat. I told her millions of times that the air bag can kill her. Her reply was that she drives carefully and my daughter is wearing a good luck amulet and not to worry.

Can you not disable the airbag? (I don't mean your wife.)

lol, good idea!

[sead]

The Labour union representative is the one who should be responsible for this. I dont know if thailand have. But we all know that we in our countries have 1 in every company. Thats where it has to start.

[realenglish1]

My understanding is there is on OSHA office in Thailand

[piersbeckett]

All three - life is cheap, pragmatism rules - why? - Corruption

[samsensam]

Not hard to understand. Safety is just another luxury not widely available in relatively poor countries.

I actually don't agree with this.

I've been to a number of poor countries and it's a matter of priorities.

The OP has a good point -- there is a shocking recklessness you see here on a regular basis.

It's more extreme here even than in "macho" Latin American countries where you might expect that.

So, it's part of the CULTURE here. An arguably awful part of the culture.

interesting point, the latin american culture would result in such behaviour but here i think it's to do with the hierarchical society where everyone knows their place and does what they are told by a person of higher rank - he may have feared sacking had he not complied.

lack of common sense is certainly also an issue too

[tmd5855]

Death through a lack of safety procedures can be traced in the main back to 2 incidents.

1) Piper Alpha production platform.

Owned and operated by Occidental. Number of explosions destroyed and the subsequent fire collapsed everything except the flare boom. I were working on the "MV Tharos". Safety were carried out then under the auspices of the Department of Energy. Taken from and given to Health and Safety.

2) MV Herald of free Enterprise.

Ferry capsized after leaving Zeebruge. H&E managed to have the Directors taken to court, charged with "Corporate Manslaughter" found "Not Guilty"

I were in the Industry from June 1977 until Feb 2015. Now shore management (management you never see) has made sure they can say "We provided training, equipment, the person never used it = No liability. Safety has gone from protecting an individual to a means of instant dismissal.

A good friend, former Chief Engineer (retd) were told during dry dock on the St**a Cl**e last year in Singapore to get some details from under the drillfloor in the moonpool, like yesterday. Asked for scaffold, told no time, asked for step ladder...... None could be found?? So he stood on a hand rail, seen and reported by a 3rd party. suspended, flown home and after consulting union and the office retired.

Management were out to get him for years. He did everything by the book, but when told to supply information like and hour ago, pressure can make you do things you would not normally do.

The same rig a few years ago killed (murdered) a Brit and an Australian by not following company procedures.

[ttthailand]

Thais are bullet proof... they think with a charm hanging around their neck nothing can happen to them.

[nithisa78]

Why don't you start and Asian OSHA. Are you lazy, or just plain stupid?

[Mudcrab]

only in America....

Now happily retired whiling away their days posting on Thai Visa forum

[Jingthing]

Why don't you start and Asian OSHA. Are you lazy, or just plain stupid?

Who is you?

The vast majority of posters here are not Thai.

Isn't there already some Thai ministry supposedly dealing with such matters?

[GOLDBUGGY]

It's not Bravery or Stupidity! It is just the lack of Safety Training.

One could argue as to where is the Common Sense, but if you have ever underdone a Safety Training Programs, all that does is teach you to use your Common Sense. To Think before you Act!

It is also Human Nature to be Lazy, avoid conflicts with your Boss, and to take Shortcuts. It was just much easier and quicker to do it the unsafe way then to argue with his Boss, then go find a harness, or material to build scaffold, which they wouldn't have anyway.

Unsafe Practices also leads to further Unsafe Practices. He got away with it this time didn't he? So it is now more difficult to break him of this bad habit once he has committed them throughout his life and, got away with it (so far).

It is like building Traffic Lights, or putting up a Stop Sign, at a busy Intersection. They don't do anything until a few people get killed first.

[lovelomsak]

I think fear is worse than taking risks. Fear controls you. risk frees you. Living with risk a person is alive, living with fear a person is crippled. I would rather be the guy climbing around fixing the light bulb than a guy on the ground having a heart attack watching.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Death through a lack of safety procedures can be traced in the main back to 2 incidents.

1) Piper Alpha production platform.

Owned and operated by Occidental. Number of explosions destroyed and the subsequent fire collapsed everything except the flare boom. I were working on the "MV Tharos". Safety were carried out then under the auspices of the Department of Energy. Taken from and given to Health and Safety.

2) MV Herald of free Enterprise.

Ferry capsized after leaving Zeebruge. H&E managed to have the Directors taken to court, charged with "Corporate Manslaughter" found "Not Guilty"

I were in the Industry from June 1977 until Feb 2015. Now shore management (management you never see) has made sure they can say "We provided training, equipment, the person never used it = No liability. Safety has gone from protecting an individual to a means of instant dismissal.

A good friend, former Chief Engineer (retd) were told during dry dock on the St**a Cl**e last year in Singapore to get some details from under the drillfloor in the moonpool, like yesterday. Asked for scaffold, told no time, asked for step ladder...... None could be found?? So he stood on a hand rail, seen and reported by a 3rd party. suspended, flown home and after consulting union and the office retired.

Management were out to get him for years. He did everything by the book, but when told to supply information like and hour ago, pressure can make you do things you would not normally do.

The same rig a few years ago killed (murdered) a Brit and an Australian by not following company procedures.

Some companies are truly safety conscious and this worker would have been awarded a Safety Certificate instead of reprimanded. But as you pointed out many are not. Especially on the Front Lines. The Front Line Supervisors are the ones most under pressure to complete a job in the easiest and quickest amount of time, which generally means taking shortcuts.

Safety Laws have come along way over the years. To the point where Managers, or Front Line Supervisors like this one, can be sent to prison if they commit a Safety Violation. But Management have found a way around this also.

What they do now is provide Mandatory Safety Training to all personnel. Each individual is well documented by the company to have passed this training. So now, when an accident occurs, they simple prove that this person had the training but own his own decided to do it the unsafe way. Rarely does the truth come out as people generally don't like speaking out, and risk losing their jobs to.

The one thing that remains true and hasn't changed over these years is this. If Management want to get rid of you, they will find a way. As long as that exists people are more likely to listen to their Boss than follow the rules.

[jamie2009]

There is a construction site along from me, Sukamvit Road, every Safety Notice you can think off is on the hoardings, thing is what actually goes on behind the might be a different story..

The employers make a big issue of Health and Safety in the UK, you do as the employee and your will not be invited back on the next project and end up on a 'blacklist'. I did work for a global company, they said they had a 'Green List' of people, oh so if you weren't on the 'Green List' you were 'Black Listed' !

Edited November 12, 2015 by jamie2009

[GOLDBUGGY]

I think fear is worse than taking risks. Fear controls you. risk frees you. Living with risk a person is alive, living with fear a person is crippled. I would rather be the guy climbing around fixing the light bulb than a guy on the ground having a heart attack watching.

Well! You are either Superman or Evil Knievel! I can't quite figure out which.

But what is for sure is that you have never seen a man lose a couple of fingers on a Construction Site for being careless with a grinding and cutting tool. Or a young man in a comma and perhaps a vegetable for the rest of his life because he fell off of a high railing in a Compressor Building, and hit his head on a cement floor, and all because nobody trained him or told him to wear a safety harness. Had you seen this like I have, I am sure you wouldn't be talking so smart.

There is a big difference between being Stupid and being Brave. Not being afraid when you are doing a dangerous act for your life, or others, is being Stupid. But winners of the highest award for Bravery in the USA, the "Congressional Medal of Honor", will all tell you this. They were scared Sh_tless when performing this act of courage. See the difference? .

[Sumit AHuja]

Hi,

I am new here. But I want to join this discussion. Thai men's have such great work spirit. They love their work. I really want to appreciate his work and his work spirit.

[GOLDBUGGY]

The difference is Education, Training and awareness. That's what the "nanny" states drum into you..

Thailand, sadly, not so much.

Perhaps but I think it's much deeper than that here.

Thailand still retains a lot of the feudal culture mentality.

Peasant lives don't really matter much here, do they?

Look at the way pedestrians are treated here. They are seen as expendable peasants.

If you actually kill one assuming you don't flee the scene (so common here and almost seen as normal and acceptable) ... what does it cost you, 5000 baht, if that?

The man changing the bulb was an expendable peasant and for him to stand up and say I want the tools to do this safely, even if he had that spark of intelligence / self worth valuing of his how own life in him which is very doubtful, he'd be out of his rice bowl right quick.

Sorry, yes I live here and nobody is making me live here, but I'm never going to admire that part of this culture which is like that.

Cheers.

Ditch the western mindset, and consider how your average Thai views this life, the next life and the one before.

Thais arent burdened with concepts such as original sin, purgatory or hell.

This life is nothing more than a vehicle that carries them to the next.

Rubbish!