MobileContent Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Its strange when Erdogan says their are no Arabs on the Turkish Syrian borders so LiveLeaks has a great video how the area gets bombarded where the pilot was killed. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19a_1448653297 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileContent Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) French and German media report that France might consider using the Syrian army to ISIS and any terrorists in Syria. So we would have no France, Germany, Russia, the US as long it goes against ISIS. Turkey looks like not part of the coalition and is not invited. Turkey does need any invitation for exterminating cockroaches few miles away from its borders in its backyard. And Turkey does not need any permission to attack Isis too. Keep in mind, it is Turks living there on those lands, not any other country you counted, for a millenium and it had right to protect its national security. Indeed, Turkey does not need an invitation. In fact, where one is lacking, they provide there own. Lets not forget a few years ago a top official was caught on the phone revealing the plan to use Turkish saboteurs to bomb a shrine/historical site in Syria which Turkey arguably had a claim. This was to be done to provide pretext to intervene. Afterwards, Youtube, FB or such was banned to prevent the leakage from going mainstream; too late. Turkey attacked the Russian plane because the Russians are bombing IS. It is that simple. Turkey has consistently been the prime local enabler of IS and any who look closely will see this. i dont know anything about bombing a shrine and it is not related with the topic and source please? you get things totally wrong. just try took from a larger perspective away from your prejudices. it is russia using Isis as a political trump card to stay in that region by using the fears of millions or countries like france, usa etc. it is also russia providing financial support by buying oil from isis. russia never cares about isis and they will not let isis go. bc isis provides russia a claim to be in syria. if we talk about an enabler it is russia. they bomb forces against isis and Assad a lot more than isis. they say only 20% of russian bombings are towards isis and rest went to other forces fighting with Assad and isis. russia intruded nato airspaces 400 times during 2014! just old cold war tactics by Putin Russia. so as a nato member, turkey gave the appropriate response in behalf of all nato members for such aggression often performed by russia. at least a country dare to slap russia in the face. and it is the first russian jet downed by a nato member for 66 years from the beginning of nato. and just for that kudos for turks as this will stop russian aggression towards nato countries or any other country. Since Russia installed the S-400 system, no sorties has been flown by the US coalition in Syria. Looks like the Russians are now able to go after everyone they seems fit. The Turks know as soon they fly into Syrian airspace, they will be popped off the sky. The S-400 radar is capable of moving cars or military vehicles at a distance of 600 kilometers. I wonder if Turkey wants to send more convoys. Edited November 28, 2015 by MobileContent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Indeed, Turkey does not need an invitation. In fact, where one is lacking, they provide there own. Lets not forget a few years ago a top official was caught on the phone revealing the plan to use Turkish saboteurs to bomb a shrine/historical site in Syria which Turkey arguably had a claim. This was to be done to provide pretext to intervene. Afterwards, Youtube, FB or such was banned to prevent the leakage from going mainstream; too late. Turkey attacked the Russian plane because the Russians are bombing IS. It is that simple. Turkey has consistently been the prime local enabler of IS and any who look closely will see this. i dont know anything about bombing a shrine and it is not related with the topic and source please? you get things totally wrong. just try took from a larger perspective away from your prejudices. it is russia using Isis as a political trump card to stay in that region by using the fears of millions or countries like france, usa etc. it is also russia providing financial support by buying oil from isis. russia never cares about isis and they will not let isis go. bc isis provides russia a claim to be in syria. if we talk about an enabler it is russia. they bomb forces against isis and Assad a lot more than isis. they say only 20% of russian bombings are towards isis and rest went to other forces fighting with Assad and isis. russia intruded nato airspaces 400 times during 2014! just old cold war tactics by Putin Russia. so as a nato member, turkey gave the appropriate response in behalf of all nato members for such aggression often performed by russia. at least a country dare to slap russia in the face. and it is the first russian jet downed by a nato member for 66 years from the beginning of nato. and just for that kudos for turks as this will stop russian aggression towards nato countries or any other country. I don't get what the issue is regarding context. Context or/and motivation are at the heart of any discussion. I get that remaining on point is good, but I personally find it difficult to believe that the shoot down with Russia was a coincidence. People have a very short attention span. Turkey has consistently evidenced a willingness to behave in this manner, as evidenced earlier with a Syrian jet as well. Russia may have no better behaved recent history of border flights, but there is certainly enough information to support withholding judgement on Russia. The modus operandi of Turkey is the false flag and this should not be so easily dismissed with regard to this OP. I would not presume those who disagree with me have prejudice- the ole standby pejorative to attack a poster personally. Lets assume, shall we, that we have different points of view? It is far more constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 A post in violation of Fair Use Policy has been removed. Only quote the first three sentences and then a link to the remainder of the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 US is discussing with Russia whether Putin will activate the missile system he's installing. It's up to Putin cause it's his system on his territory. It would be another escalation if Putin ordered it turned on. Assad certainly hasn't any effective say over what Putin does in Putin's new territorial domain, formerly called Syria. There's only a tiny bit left over now of what used to be Syria for Assad to rule over. Sort of rule over. Be allowed to pretend to kind of rule over. Somewhat. Sometimes. Some people who are still there. Certainly not rule over any Russians in the place. If Putin activates the missile system once it's all in place, US will outfit its fighters with jamming equipment. Neither system would be a joke or ineffective, so the Putin fanboyz can save that song and dance which has already been disproved at the thread. Putin's missile system is maybe where Reagan's Star Wars system was back then. Putin ordered in his missile system because Erdogan gave Putin a sore head brought on by complications due to sore nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 f...k akp and their politics. totally agree with you but those arms were going to turkmen forces not isis do you agree russia to perform aggression and intrude and disrespect the national sovereignty of another country? you are saying erdogan and akp are islamofascist which you are right but what about Putin? isnt he another fascist and tyrant but just a christian one? all newspapers are under iron fist of putin in russia. you say one word to putin and you are in jail. things are a lot worse in russia than turkey in terms of freedom of speech or human rights believe me. so are you ok for such violation of turkish airspace or any other airspace by a dangerous fascist and tyrant? You're not entirely wrong, but neither are you right The perfect state or perfect leader does not exist, so we just have to put up with whatever happens to float to the top of the cesspool of politics. Mere mortals like ourselves can only read the reports (hopefully from a wide range of sources) and pass comment in forums such as this, but the chances of any of us being able to actually DO anything are so remote as to be negligible. Fwiw - - Erdogan's family are well-known to be up to their armpits in activities supporting Daesh. http://journal-neo.org/2015/08/24/erdogan-s-dirty-dangerous-isis-games/ Every single politician that has made a statement has been telling lies -- it's in their DNA One cannot brush over or dismiss criticism of Putin quite so lightly or glibly. Putin has much too much to account for. He has opponents murdered right outside the Kremlin for instance. Don't like Erdogan at all but gotta shake his hand for giving the mite Putin a swift kick to the nuts. It got Erdogan what he wanted at his country's border. It demonstrated how best to handle the mite in Moscow. That kick in the nuts will be repaid many times over.. The response(s) will take many forms and will spread over a long period of time Erdogan proved Putin is not such a tough nut to crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I i dont know anything about bombing a shrine and it is not related with the topic and source please? you get things totally wrong. just try took from a larger perspective away from your prejudices. it is russia using Isis as a political trump card to stay in that region by using the fears of millions or countries like france, usa etc. it is also russia providing financial support by buying oil from isis. russia never cares about isis and they will not let isis go. bc isis provides russia a claim to be in syria. if we talk about an enabler it is russia. they bomb forces against isis and Assad a lot more than isis. they say only 20% of russian bombings are towards isis and rest went to other forces fighting with Assad and isis. russia intruded nato airspaces 400 times during 2014! just old cold war tactics by Putin Russia. so as a nato member, turkey gave the appropriate response in behalf of all nato members for such aggression often performed by russia. at least a country dare to slap russia in the face. and it is the first russian jet downed by a nato member for 66 years from the beginning of nato. and just for that kudos for turks as this will stop russian aggression towards nato countries or any other country. Turkey is buying ISIS oil. Russia is home to the biggest oil company on the planet so I don't think oil importing is high on their agenda list. Turkey and Erdogan are insane. Simply crazy. They were making all these deals with Russia and then they do this. It means that Turkey cares more about its ISIS connections then its deals with Russia. Who are providing them with things like nuclear power and pipeline mega deals. And 55% of their natural gas. Russia gives $1.39 bln for Turkey's first nuclear plant ... www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russia-gives-139-bln-for-turkeys-first-nucle... Apr 10, 2014 - Turkey has received $1.39 billion from Russia for the construction of Turkey's first nuclear power plant in Akkuyu for the first quarter of 2014. Russia And Turkey Governments To Sign Pipeline Deal ... www.forbes.com/.../russia-and-turkey-governments-to-sign-pipeline-deal... Oct 5, 2015 - Just to play safe, Russia's government will set up an intergovernmental agreement with Turkey to lock in the planned Turkish Stream pipeline ... Turkey: Lacking Geopolitical Leverage in Russian Relations ... www.eurasianet.org/node/75711 Oct 26, 2015 - Turkey imports 55 percent of its gas from Russia, 10 percent of its oil from Russia. In the gas business, you simply can't diversify overnight. These are also creates problems for russia. If they cant sell their gas to turkey which is russia's number two customer after germany. Where will they sell those gas if not turkey? Economy in russia sucks now and they need that money from turkey which is like 10s of billions dollars. Moreover, I am against any nuclear reactor so hope it is cancelled still russia is not doing it for free! They will sell electricty to turkish government at high prices which is the part of the deal and they do it to earn money not for charity! And turkey was the one of the rare countries that was selling agricultural products to russia due to the embargo of west so both countries lose and actually russia loses more. Russia does not need the money. They can keep the gas in the ground. Russia Has a Flat Tax and Almost no Debt - Forbes www.forbes.com/.../attention-mitt-romney-russia-has-a-flat-tax-and-almo... Jan 20, 2012 - Mitt Romney's bizarre stand-off with an Occupy Wall Street heckler has now gone viral. To the surprise of no-one conservatives seem to love ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 US is discussing with Russia whether Putin will activate the missile system he's installing. It's up to Putin cause it's his system on his territory. It would be another escalation if Putin ordered it turned on. Assad certainly hasn't any effective say over what Putin does in Putin's new territorial domain, formerly called Syria. There's only a tiny bit left over now of what used to be Syria for Assad to rule over. Sort of rule over. Be allowed to pretend to kind of rule over. Somewhat. Sometimes. Some people who are still there. Certainly not rule over any Russians in the place. If Putin activates the missile system once it's all in place, US will outfit its fighters with jamming equipment. Neither system would be a joke or ineffective, so the Putin fanboyz can save that song and dance which has already been disproved at the thread. Putin's missile system is maybe where Reagan's Star Wars system was back then. Putin ordered in his missile system because Erdogan gave Putin a sore head brought on by complications due to sore nuts. Its on. Reports are coming in that pilots can already hear the radar lock on their aircraft. The S 400 cannot be jammed by the US or Israel. That is why Israel has made such a big deal about Russia selling it to Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 French and German media report that France might consider using the Syrian army to ISIS and any terrorists in Syria. So we would have no France, Germany, Russia, the US as long it goes against ISIS. Turkey looks like not part of the coalition and is not invited. Turkey does need any invitation for exterminating cockroaches few miles away from its borders in its backyard. And Turkey does not need any permission to attack Isis too. Keep in mind, it is Turks living there on those lands, not any other country you counted, for a millenium and it had right to protect its national security. Indeed, Turkey does not need an invitation. In fact, where one is lacking, they provide there own. Lets not forget a few years ago a top official was caught on the phone revealing the plan to use Turkish saboteurs to bomb a shrine/historical site in Syria which Turkey arguably had a claim. This was to be done to provide pretext to intervene. Afterwards, Youtube, FB or such was banned to prevent the leakage from going mainstream; too late. Turkey attacked the Russian plane because the Russians are bombing IS. It is that simple. Turkey has consistently been the prime local enabler of IS and any who look closely will see this. i dont know anything about bombing a shrine and it is not related with the topic and source please? you get things totally wrong. just try took from a larger perspective away from your prejudices. it is russia using Isis as a political trump card to stay in that region by using the fears of millions or countries like france, usa etc. it is also russia providing financial support by buying oil from isis. russia never cares about isis and they will not let isis go. bc isis provides russia a claim to be in syria. if we talk about an enabler it is russia. they bomb forces against isis and Assad a lot more than isis. they say only 20% of russian bombings are towards isis and rest went to other forces fighting with Assad and isis. russia intruded nato airspaces 400 times during 2014! just old cold war tactics by Putin Russia. so as a nato member, turkey gave the appropriate response in behalf of all nato members for such aggression often performed by russia. at least a country dare to slap russia in the face. and it is the first russian jet downed by a nato member for 66 years from the beginning of nato. and just for that kudos for turks as this will stop russian aggression towards nato countries or any other country. total drivel. Russia forces don't need ISIS to stay in Syria, since Russia is invited by Assad so that the gas pipeline can be built. ISIS is on the contrary a big nuisance for Russia. you can read ahead and see how many times Turkey alone invaded Greek airspace in the last years, it has gone up from about 500 times a year to more than 2500 times now... Turkey has no case for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 This is a new development : http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/26/us-turkey-media-syria-idUSKBN0TF2CI20151126 The newspaper had published footage that purported to show the state intelligence agency helping send weapons to Syria, and of course, the Islamofascist thugs of AKP were incensed at this; and vowed to take revenge on this newspaper. Now, two journalists have been arrested and will possibly be sentenced to jail (AKP has a lot of control on the judiciary system now; just like they do on other crucial units of the country). Horrible times for my country To be honest, I have little hope for the future of Turkey. Things will get worse before they get any better. This is what happens 99 percent of the time when political Islam is tolerated. Not only nationalists but also some liberals have blood and shame in their hands for sometimes assisting and even colluding with Islamists. <deleted> akp and their politics. totally agree with you but those arms were going to turkmen forces not isis do you agree russia to perform aggression and intrude and disrespect the national sovereignty of another country? you are saying erdogan and akp are islamofascist which you are right but what about Putin? isnt he another fascist and tyrant but just a christian one? all newspapers are under iron fist of putin in russia. you say one word to putin and you are in jail. things are a lot worse in russia than turkey in terms of freedom of speech or human rights believe me. so are you ok for such violation of turkish airspace or any other airspace by a dangerous fascist and tyrant? Putin mistreating journalists in Russia doesn't give Turkey the right to do the same. Regarding the respect for national sovereignty, see my previous case about Turkish incursions in Greek airspace (2500+ a year). Regarding the weapons, being Turkmen doesn't make a person or a group of them good persons. Attacking random people in streets with swords in China or bombing the Erawan shrine is not going to help the Turkmen. Regarding the Turkmen in Syria, the brigade that shot dead the Russian pilot is led by a terrorist (Grey Wolf) and his fighters speak arab... So, either way these arms shipments get spinned, the recipients are terrorists in both cases... terrorist Turkmen or ISIS... doesn't make a big difference, I hope all terrorists disappear. And Erdogan already announced the journalists will pay a heavy price - so they are already sentenced by the president even before being sent to court, that will be a fair trial for sure. And let's not forget the nice business of Erdogan's son, trading oil with ISIS. Again, Turkey does not have a case for anything. If your country gets rid of its islamofascists at home (Erdogan & family and accomplices) and stops to support terrorists abroad, we can talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 If Putin activates the missile system once it's all in place, US will outfit its fighters with jamming equipment. The S 400 cannot be jammed by the US or Israel. That is why Israel has made such a big deal about Russia selling it to Iran. But….but…but….Publicus said it could be jammed and he gets his info straight from the daily briefing at the oval office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvr181 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Muslim supporting muslim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Off-topic post removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Russia vows to continue Syria air strikes close to Turkish ...www.ft.com › World 3 days ago - Moscow said it would continue to bomb targets in Syria close to the Turkish ... Russian warplanes also carried out raids on Azaz, a strategic ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) US is discussing with Russia whether Putin will activate the missile system he's installing. It's up to Putin cause it's his system on his territory. It would be another escalation if Putin ordered it turned on. Assad certainly hasn't any effective say over what Putin does in Putin's new territorial domain, formerly called Syria. There's only a tiny bit left over now of what used to be Syria for Assad to rule over. Sort of rule over. Be allowed to pretend to kind of rule over. Somewhat. Sometimes. Some people who are still there. Certainly not rule over any Russians in the place. If Putin activates the missile system once it's all in place, US will outfit its fighters with jamming equipment. Neither system would be a joke or ineffective, so the Putin fanboyz can save that song and dance which has already been disproved at the thread. Putin's missile system is maybe where Reagan's Star Wars system was back then. Putin ordered in his missile system because Erdogan gave Putin a sore head brought on by complications due to sore nuts. Its on. Reports are coming in that pilots can already hear the radar lock on their aircraft. The S 400 cannot be jammed by the US or Israel. That is why Israel has made such a big deal about Russia selling it to Iran. Russia's S-400 system is one of several new A2/AD systems being developed by major military powers. It is Russia's best system to date and it's a very good one that is complex and comprehensive. Its design and testing indicate it could stop anything incoming from any country. A2 = Anti-Access meaning stopping an attacker's air offense to include everything, from ships and planes to cruise to ballistic missiles. EW (electronic warfare). AD = Area Denial meaning deny an attacker getting close in enough to fire missiles within their range, deny bomber aircraft getting to targets within their range, fighter jets, ships such as aircraft carriers etc etc. S-400 is named by Nato as the SA-21 Growler A2/AD system. (The Russian Bear ) It is a sophisticated and formidable system of A2/AD. The Dictators in Beijing have spent several years trying to buy it. SA-21 Growler (S-400) puts Israel and southern Turkey in its area of A2/AD, to include all of Syria back out to the RAF base in Cyprus. It encompasses the eastern Med to include the French aircraft carrier that just arrived there as a present friend of Putin. So Putin is making a statement more to Turkey and Israel than he is trying to do to the United States or to Nato. Assad is meanwhile standing at his window watching which is all that he can do. Putin is boss in Syria. Erdogan is Putin's nemesis. The weakness of present systems of A2/AD is that they are complex, integrated, interdependent. Break one step in the kill chain and you will live to tell the tale of your attack against the system. Find the system's weakest link means disabling the entire system. “All aircraft can be seen by certain radars. The trick is to disrupt the [kill] chain when someone can lock weapons on you," Mike Gibbons, Boeing vice president of F/A-18 and EA-18G programs. Stealth does not mean invisible, never has meant invisible. It means having to have an A2/AD radar technology that differentiates between a crow flying or an F-22 Raptor of the USAF.The Russian S-400 will still explode the crow while the US attack fighter jet will destroy the missiles launched against it. Even the US fighter jets F-15 and F-16 that are the backbone of the Turkey Air Force can be modified against the SA-21 Growler (S-400) From the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, which is a private organisation.... U.S. weapons designers have taken a number of measures to defeat the various capabilities of systems such as the S-400. For example, the F-35 has been designed with sufficient stealth and electronic warfare capability to operate effectively in air space contested by the S-400. It will employ an integrated combination of stealth technologies to give it a very small radar cross section, especially in attack profile. [10] Moreover, it will utilize an advanced electronic warfare suite that includes sophisticated on-board emitter detection, advanced signal processing, and high transmission power to make it feasible to jam or deceive the kind of agile radar systems used by the S-400. http://csis.org/blog/russia-announces-sale-s-400-china The following infographic, prepared by US Naval Intelligence @Naval_Graphics, details most of the weapon and sensor systems aboard the Slava-class cruiser Moscova deployed off the coast of Syria.. We know where they live. Edited November 29, 2015 by Publicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukecan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) The Turkish Air Force is shiiiiiiiiiiiii t to be honest. We have no means of matching Russia. We only have f-16's, yes they've been upgraded and all, but we currently don't have an air superiority fighter like f-15 or f-35. I'm sure some military geeks can confirm my point. For the last 30 years we've been getting into dogfights with greek planes which were no match for us, but russia is a different story. S-400 is really advanced. Edited November 29, 2015 by Lukecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maykilceksin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Turkey does need any invitation for exterminating cockroaches few miles away from its borders in its backyard.And Turkey does not need any permission to attack Isis too. Keep in mind, it is Turks living there on those lands, not any other country you counted, for a millenium and it had right to protect its national security. Indeed, Turkey does not need an invitation. In fact, where one is lacking, they provide there own. Lets not forget a few years ago a top official was caught on the phone revealing the plan to use Turkish saboteurs to bomb a shrine/historical site in Syria which Turkey arguably had a claim. This was to be done to provide pretext to intervene. Afterwards, Youtube, FB or such was banned to prevent the leakage from going mainstream; too late. Turkey attacked the Russian plane because the Russians are bombing IS. It is that simple. Turkey has consistently been the prime local enabler of IS and any who look closely will see this. i dont know anything about bombing a shrine and it is not related with the topic and source please? you get things totally wrong. just try took from a larger perspective away from your prejudices. it is russia using Isis as a political trump card to stay in that region by using the fears of millions or countries like france, usa etc. it is also russia providing financial support by buying oil from isis. russia never cares about isis and they will not let isis go. bc isis provides russia a claim to be in syria. if we talk about an enabler it is russia. they bomb forces against isis and Assad a lot more than isis. they say only 20% of russian bombings are towards isis and rest went to other forces fighting with Assad and isis. russia intruded nato airspaces 400 times during 2014! just old cold war tactics by Putin Russia. so as a nato member, turkey gave the appropriate response in behalf of all nato members for such aggression often performed by russia. at least a country dare to slap russia in the face. and it is the first russian jet downed by a nato member for 66 years from the beginning of nato. and just for that kudos for turks as this will stop russian aggression towards nato countries or any other country. total drivel. Russia forces don't need ISIS to stay in Syria, since Russia is invited by Assad so that the gas pipeline can be built. ISIS is on the contrary a big nuisance for Russia. you can read ahead and see how many times Turkey alone invaded Greek airspace in the last years, it has gone up from about 500 times a year to more than 2500 times now... Turkey has no case for anything. assad invited russia to build a pipeline? haha, funny really. so are they building it now? russis is or even invited i am sure bc they are in syria for long years. most probably they are being there by force. what they are doing is being a lapdog of assad to keep those bases and land. greece also intrudes to Turkish airspace regularly but engagement rules are different between two countries. turks have the case on that matter and gave putin a nice slap in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukecan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) I hope this crisis serves as a wake up call to my country, diversify , diversify. We're dependent on Russian gas, we need to diversify ASAP. Europe has strengthened their efforts on energy diversification after the Ukraine incident, we should follow their lead. Russia is a commodity driven economy and is basically nothing without their energy advantage. They don't export high tech, they have no worldwide known brands apart from yandex. I just want to see the look on putins face when neighboring countries aren't so dependent on Russian gas anymore? Edited November 29, 2015 by Lukecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 "For example, the F-35 has been designed with sufficient stealth and electronic warfare capability to operate effectively in air space contested by the S-400" One of the problems with the F-35 and that is for every sorty run it needs between 8-12 hours to 'clean' the radar absorbing skin and around 15 crew/staff per aircraft to maintain it. So turnaround time is a bit on the slow side, no pit stop only. Solution of course, just have a whole lot of them around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maykilceksin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) This is a new development : http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/26/us-turkey-media-syria-idUSKBN0TF2CI20151126 The newspaper had published footage that purported to show the state intelligence agency helping send weapons to Syria, and of course, the Islamofascist thugs of AKP were incensed at this; and vowed to take revenge on this newspaper. Now, two journalists have been arrested and will possibly be sentenced to jail (AKP has a lot of control on the judiciary system now; just like they do on other crucial units of the country). Horrible times for my country To be honest, I have little hope for the future of Turkey. Things will get worse before they get any better. This is what happens 99 percent of the time when political Islam is tolerated. Not only nationalists but also some liberals have blood and shame in their hands for sometimes assisting and even colluding with Islamists. <deleted> akp and their politics. totally agree with you but those arms were going to turkmen forces not isis do you agree russia to perform aggression and intrude and disrespect the national sovereignty of another country? you are saying erdogan and akp are islamofascist which you are right but what about Putin? isnt he another fascist and tyrant but just a christian one? all newspapers are under iron fist of putin in russia. you say one word to putin and you are in jail. things are a lot worse in russia than turkey in terms of freedom of speech or human rights believe me. so are you ok for such violation of turkish airspace or any other airspace by a dangerous fascist and tyrant? Putin mistreating journalists in Russia doesn't give Turkey the right to do the same. Regarding the respect for national sovereignty, see my previous case about Turkish incursions in Greek airspace (2500+ a year). Regarding the weapons, being Turkmen doesn't make a person or a group of them good persons. Attacking random people in streets with swords in China or bombing the Erawan shrine is not going to help the Turkmen. Regarding the Turkmen in Syria, the brigade that shot dead the Russian pilot is led by a terrorist (Grey Wolf) and his fighters speak arab... So, either way these arms shipments get spinned, the recipients are terrorists in both cases... terrorist Turkmen or ISIS... doesn't make a big difference, I hope all terrorists disappear. And Erdogan already announced the journalists will pay a heavy price - so they are already sentenced by the president even before being sent to court, that will be a fair trial for sure. And let's not forget the nice business of Erdogan's son, trading oil with ISIS. Again, Turkey does not have a case for anything. If your country gets rid of its islamofascists at home (Erdogan & family and accomplices) and stops to support terrorists abroad, we can talk. the ones in china called uighur turks not turkmens. just update yourself a bit. you constantly provide misleading info. and please links on what you say. people in syria speaks arabic so normal for them to speak arabic. gray wolves are terrorists? they are fascists but i dont know if they are counted as a terrorist group. pleaae links and please enlighten us more. but here are link russians buying oil from isis or help assad to clear it and how they are blacklisted. and please check these links: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-says-syria-is-buying-oil-from-islamic-state-1448471418 http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/25/us-sanctions-those-helping-syrian-govt-buy-oil-from-islamic-state.html so they help isis to stay as if no isis, assad will be gone and so do russia as they will have no triumph card to get support from any other country or in that region to stay. and what about russia arming assad probably with chemical weapons and helping every rouge country on earth to get armed? regarding erdogan s son and their corrupt family, really hate them all but do you have any links to back up what you are saying? here my posts are never to support those corrupt bigots but just for condemning russia on violating turkish airspace and nato airspaces 400 times last year and for putin russia's expansioinst emperial tendencies bringing war to the countries. putin just wants to be an emperor! turks have a valid case. they shot down a russian plane for violating its airspace for the 6th time in two months. but russia dont have any valid case to be in syria apart from bloody assad's illegitimate permission. dont tell me russia is there to build a pipeline! you dont want to see it or if you are unable to digest the reality, that is fine. Edited November 29, 2015 by maykilceksin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maykilceksin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I hope this crisis serves as a wake up call to my country, diversify , diversify. We're dependent on Russian gas, we need to diversify ASAP. Europe has strengthened their efforts on energy diversification after the Ukraine incident, we should follow their lead. Russia is a commodity driven economy and is basically nothing without their energy advantage. They don't export high tech, they have no worldwide known brands apart from yandex. I just want to see the look on putins face when neighboring countries aren't so dependent on Russian gas anymore? i am sure turks will diversify its sources of natural resources. and anyway better to get a cold winter than living without honor by constant border harassments and disrespect from russia like they can do whatever they want and violate any border they want like it is theirs. turks buy gas from russia just bc they sell it cheaper. they can very well buy it from Iran, Azerbaijan and some other countries. but russia depends on gas exports so they cant risk cutting the gas. moreover, gas supply is guaranteed by international agreements between turkey and russia so if they cut it, they have to pay a very hefty compensation to Turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Ooops Erdogan.. NATO was worried about Russian air dominance in Syria before the S400 showed up. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/29/top-nato-general-russians-starting-to-build-air-defense-bubble-over-syria/ By Thomas Gibbons-Neff September 29 Top NATO general: Russians starting to build air defense bubble over Syria While Russia’s stated goal in moving into Syria is to fight the Islamic State, NATO’s top commander believes Russia’s new presence includes the first pieces of an intricate layer of defensive systems deployed to hinder U.S. and coalition operations in the region. November 1st 2200 US Marines arrived in the Med from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit in the USA. Marine AV8B Harrier fighter jets Thursday launched attacks against Daesh from the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge. Aircraft carrier USS Harry S Truman and its six ship strike force left the United States today (after Thanksgiving Holiday Thursday) for the eastern Med. It will join with a flotilla of French Navy ships to include the French carrier Charles de Gaulle. The two forces will coordinate air strikes against ISIS. U.S. and coalition airstrikes against the Islamic State group will continue despite Russia’s decision to send advanced S-400 surface-to-air missiles to Syria, said the commander of U.S. Air Forces Central Command. “Yes, it does complicate things a little bit, and we’ll put some thought to it, but we still have a job to do here, and we’re going to continue to do that job – to defeat Daesh [the Islamic State group],” Lt. Gen. Charles Brown Jr. told Air Force Times on Wednesday. While the U.S.-led coalition and Russia are both operating in Syrian airspace, they are not coordinating or cooperating, Brown said. http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/11/25/us-airstrikes-syria-continue-despite-new-russian-air-defenses/76365340/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 "For example, the F-35 has been designed with sufficient stealth and electronic warfare capability to operate effectively in air space contested by the S-400" One of the problems with the F-35 and that is for every sorty run it needs between 8-12 hours to 'clean' the radar absorbing skin and around 15 crew/staff per aircraft to maintain it. So turnaround time is a bit on the slow side, no pit stop only. Solution of course, just have a whole lot of them around. Valid and true, however, as we know, these technologies do get developed and modified all the time. Improved and more fully up to task. The F-35 of the present is eminently servicable. The map shows the range of the SA-21 Growler (S-400) Russian A2/AD defense missile system (courtesy of Stratfor). Pink is short and medium range, blue is long range. So the system range includes the TuAF base Incirlik used by Nato and the US. Incrilik is the name of the base located outside Adana city in the southeast. Adana is in the pink and is about two inches above the Russian air base in Syria. Yesterday the Nato supreme commander USAF Gen Philip Breedlove said a number of US planes would be located to an air base in southeast Turkey at Diyarbakir, which is in the blue circle at 2 oclock. While this is still within range, it broadens the front the SA-21 system would need to deal with. Trouble with this mobile S-400 (SA-21 Growler) system being located in Syria is, that, well, it is not inside Russia. And it is mobile. The SA-21 Growler system exists on the surface. It travels and takes stationary actions on the surface of the land. Which makes it vulnerable outside of Russia to surprise attack by special ops on the ground. Or by instant laser beams by satellites regardless of country location. The system can move but it gets tracked. Heavy artillery also can be used to effect if not direct hits. Russian defense ministry says it will take the system back to Russia when all this is over. Maybe it will, maybe not. When all this is over............ Russian A2/AD mobile SA-21 Growler (S-400) surface to air missile defense system shown during training in Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Russians shifted a missile cruiser closer to the Turkish coastline. It's not only about domination on land and air. They've also played Russian chess in the waters... https://www.rt.com/news/323385-russia-missile-cruiser-latakia/ Edited November 29, 2015 by Thorgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Everything on the Russian Navy cruiser Moscova that is off the coast of Syria is out in the open. Easy targets grossly exposed to attack. The poor Russian sailors who have to go out there in the open are also going to get blasted to bits. Ships of the Russian navy have a lot of deck and a lot of activity on deck. Below is a ship the Russians don't want to see coming. It is the USS Zumwalt DDG 1000 revolution in naval warfare. USS Zumwalt DDG 1000 destroyer being guided from construction dock Bath Shipyard, Maine, May 7, 2014. Built by General Dynamics, the Zumwalt DDG-1000 will be the Navy's largest destroyer — replacing the aging Spruance-class destroyers that had already been decommissioned — with technology onboard for targeting submarines, defeating minefields, and obliterating shore defenses with low-altitude missiles that evade radar, artillery, and it has even an electromagnetic rail gun. Anyone who wants to know vital data of this warship has gotta be inside it. You wouldn't want to be Russian and outside of it. This is the first of the Zumwalt destroyers which are named after the 19th chief of Naval operations, Admiral E.M. Zumwalt who revolutionised the Navy during the 1970s. Believe it or not, the name of its first commanding officer is Captain James Kirk. These ships are multi-mission ships with the focus on land attack to penetrate systems of A2/AD. Zumwalt has laser weapons, rail guns, an advanced radar to track ballistic missiles. The design makes it the most technologically advanced, lowest radar profile and the most lethal ship ever to take to the water. No country has anything like it. Captain James A. Kirk USN. Captain Kirk is a graduate of the US Naval Academy Class of 1990, a graduate of the U.S. Naval War College, and he is a graduate of the US Army War College. His specialty is air-sea and satellite warfare. http://www.businessinsider.com/uss-zumwalt-2014-4 Edited November 29, 2015 by Publicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukecan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Comparing the military power of US and Russia is like comparing Ferrari with a Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Everything on the Russian Navy cruiser Moscova that is off the coast of Syria is out in the open. Easy targets grossly exposed to attack. The poor Russian sailors who have to go out there in the open are also going to get blasted to bits. Ships of the Russian navy have a lot of deck and a lot of activity on deck. Below is a ship the Russians don't want to see coming. It is the USS Zumwalt DDG 1000 revolution in naval warfare. USS Zumwalt DDG 1000 destroyer being guided from construction dock Bath Shipyard, Maine, May 7, 2014. Built by General Dynamics, the Zumwalt DDG-1000 will be the Navy's largest destroyer — replacing the aging Spruance-class destroyers that had already been decommissioned — with technology onboard for targeting submarines, defeating minefields, and obliterating shore defenses with low-altitude missiles that evade radar, artillery, and it has even an electromagnetic rail gun. Anyone who wants to know vital data of this warship has gotta be inside it. You wouldn't want to be Russian and outside of it. This is the first of the Zumwalt destroyers which are named after the 19th chief of Naval operations, Admiral E.M. Zumwalt who revolutionised the Navy during the 1970s. Believe it or not, the name of its first commanding officer is Captain James Kirk. These ships are multi-mission ships with the focus on land attack to penetrate systems of A2/AD. Zumwalt has laser weapons, rail guns, an advanced radar to track ballistic missiles. The design makes it the most technologically advanced, lowest radar profile and the most lethal ship ever to take to the water. No country has anything like it. Captain James A. Kirk USN. Captain Kirk is a graduate of the US Naval Academy Class of 1990, a graduate of the U.S. Naval War College, and he is a graduate of the US Army War College. His specialty is air-sea and satellite warfare. http://www.businessinsider.com/uss-zumwalt-2014-4 I guess he's waiting on a reassignment to the next ship to bear that name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28CVN-65%29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publicus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) This discusses a central aspect of what happened and why. It is why Erdogan will not apologise. Apologising is the same as allowing Putin run free to impose his demented will. Either one produces the same result, which is a severely diminished Turkey. The bottom line for the always up tight Erdogan is that there are more allies, security, stability, prosperity, global clout in Nato and with Nato countries then there is with Russia. CCP China is not a player in this. Brics have no mortar. After Assad’s forces downed a Turkish RF-4 reconnaissance plane over the Mediterranean in June 2012, Ankara implemented new rules of engagement with dubious legal standing against Damascus. For the past three-and-a-half years, Turkey has brought down more than half a dozen Syrian fighter jets, helicopters and UAVs for allegedly violating its airspace. The latest incident is a culmination of that tug-of-war and Turkey’s desire to help its clients in Syria. Following the arrival of the Russian air contingent on Syria’s Mediterranean coast in September 2015, one Russian aircraft briefly violated Turkish airspace, a Syrian MiG-29 locked on Turkish F-16s flying inside Turkey and the Turks shot down what is believed to be a Russian-made UAV within their territory on October 16. During these episodes, Russian Air Force assets meant to show the Turks that their support for anti-Assad rebels was not welcome. For Turkey, putting pressure on Russian air operations in Syria was a way to reassure the rebel groups under its aegis to keep fighting the Assad regime. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/5-turkish-weapons-war-russia-should-fear-14447 Edited November 29, 2015 by Publicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Jones Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Russian jet breaches Israel airspace Ya’alon: Russian jet recently breached our airspace, wasn’t shot downDefense minister says open coordination channel with Putin’s military prevents mistakeshttp://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-...not-shot-down/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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