Can someone possibly tell me the meaning of MATSAMAN (มัสมั่น)?

I am aware that it relates to the Muslim curry.

Thank you for your help.

Dear MJCM,

Thank you for that. I have actually read that before and therefore have described Massaman curry as 'muslim'.

Dear stoneyboy,

Thank you very much for that. I think I might indicate it as 'possibly' meaning muslim (as I have already).

Dear MJCM,

Sorry about that. I read the top section and realized that I had read it before, but didn't notice the section regarding it possibly meaning "sour".

Thanks for pointing that out. I may have to add that.

The suggestion that "matsaman" is derived from the Malay "masam" is highly questionable.

(1) Very, very few Malay words have been adopted into Thai. It's rather like Welsh words in English. I can count them on the fingers of one hand. (Flannel, penguin, eisteddfod...) Where a culture looks down on a neighbouring culture it usually doesn't adopt its words, and the northern Malay states were vassal states of Ayutthaya, paying annual tribute.

(2) The spicing of the curry is not typically Malay, and has much more in common with the curries of India.

(3) How did "masam" gain an additional "man" at the end? It doesn't make sense.

(4) "Masam" means "having an acid, sharp or tangy taste". This curry is salty and sweet, not acidic.

This very much smacks of folk etymology.

Dear AyG,

Thank you very much for your information. You have put a lot of thought into this.

I was thinking that the 'sour' taste could come from the tamarind, which is used in this curry (although I believe that the spices play a more important part), but tended to think that 'muslim' could be correct. I was also wondering about the 'man' at the end, however when I looked it up, it did not appear to make sense to me. Many sites do describe this as a 'muslim curry' and I imagine that David Thompson would have done quite a bit of research himself.

In your opinion then, would you recommend I use 'muslim' only?

Thanks for your help.

I think the etymology of MATSAMAN isn't clear, though Mussalman is quite persuasive. However, the Moslem roots of this curry are quite clear. The RID doesn't give an etymology, but reads (sorry, the translation's a bit rough):

แกงชนิดหนึ่ง นํ้าแกงข้น เป็นแกงอย่างมุสลิม

A type of curry. The sauce is thick. It's a Moslem curry.

ใช้เนื้อหรือไก่เป็นต้นชิ้นโต ๆ ปรุงด้วยเครื่องเทศ มีรสเค็ม หวาน

It's made with beef, chicken for example. Large pieces. It's cooked with [dry] spices. It has a salty, sweet taste

และออกเปรี้ยวเล็กน้อย.

and is a little bit sour.

FWIW, every couple of weeks I visit a local Moslem restaurant (even though I disapprove of halal killing). The Moslem curry section includes "curry", "matsaman" and "korma". Clearly the cooks lump the Indian-style curry with matsaman and korma, suggesting that in their mind they share a common connection, namely having originally come from India.

Dear AyG,

Thank you very much for that. It seems that all these clues tend to lean towards 'muslim'.

I sincerely appreciate all your information (and translation).

The suggestion that "matsaman" is derived from the Malay "masam" is highly questionable.

Very, very few Malay words have been adopted into Thai.

It's rather like Welsh words in English. I can count them on the fingers of one hand. (Flannel, penguin, eisteddfod...) Where a culture looks down on a neighbouring culture it usually doesn't adopt its words, and the northern Malay states were vassal states of Ayutthaya, paying annual tribute.

-combe, cwm (2 for the price of one)...

More seriously, apart from a few well known words like ทุเรียน 'durian', there are lots of words taken from a courtly form of Malay, such as กลหาย and คลิด. The RID even has the abbreviation 'ม.' meaning 'Malay' for use in etymologies. I've read that there's been a Malay influence from the presence of Malays at an early Ratanakosin court, but for all I know these words might even date back to Sri Vijaya.

Dear Richard W,

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.

The suggestion that "matsaman" is derived from the Malay "masam" is highly questionable.

Very, very few Malay words have been adopted into Thai.

It's rather like Welsh words in English. I can count them on the fingers of one hand. (Flannel, penguin, eisteddfod...) Where a culture looks down on a neighbouring culture it usually doesn't adopt its words, and the northern Malay states were vassal states of Ayutthaya, paying annual tribute.

-combe, cwm (2 for the price of one)...

More seriously, apart from a few well known words like ทุเรียน 'durian', there are lots of words taken from a courtly form of Malay, such as กลหาย and คลิด. The RID even has the abbreviation 'ม.' meaning 'Malay' for use in etymologies. I've read that there's been a Malay influence from the presence of Malays at an early Ratanakosin court, but for all I know these words might even date back to Sri Vijaya.

I must say I was rather surprised by the number of Malay loan words in the RID. Approximately 550. A proportion of them is listed has having originated in Sanskrit and/or Pali. For these words, I guess they must have been adopted into Malay before the displacement of Buddhism and Hinduism on the Malay peninsula by Islam (i.e. pre-12th/13th century CE), so a Sri Vijaya background makes a lot of sense.