What would you do? Caddy and rules Q

[jobin]

Must take a caddy in T'land. I accept that. Most often the caddy and i have no common language at all and sometimes she is a new trainee too. Recently i had exactly this caddy. She did not know much and we could hardly communicate. Yet, according to the rules i am responsible for her actions regarding my ball/gear, etc.

On the green 3 of 4 had putted out and i had a 3 foot putt in a no-gimme contest. I told her to mark the ball but she picked up the ball, thinking no doubt hole complete or gimme or ?? She probably sees many gimmes from that distance in daily play, but not with our group. I was assessed a 2 stroke penalty.

What's your thought on this?

[lovelomsak]

Take it as lesson learned. In the future communicate exactly what you want done . People assume especially Thai's . If communication is a problem just need to put more effort into communicating.Next time maybe place the marker in her hand.and point.

[manarak]

yes, you are responsible of the actions of your party, including your caddy, but two stroke penalty is wrong.

the penalty is one stroke and replace the ball (rule 18).

if you didn't replace the ball, you didn't finish the hole and therefore you would be disqualified, except if you played match play (lose the hole) or stableford (score zero).

considering the caddy is imposed on you and not really a member of your game party by your choice, you could appeal the one stroke penalty with the committee responsible for the tournament before handing in your scorecard for that round.

when in doubt about a rule, always finish the hole anyway and write down two possible scores, you can ask for a referee ruling before giving back your scorecard, as well as for raising an appeal with the game committee.

in absence of a referee, playing a second ball in potential application of a rule and finishing the hole with both and asking clarification of the rule before handing in the scorecard is also acceptable.

Edited November 29, 2015 by manarak

[scubascuba3]

the default is for the caddy to mark the ball, say nothing and she will mark it.

The real problem here is the 2 shot penalty. What knob imposed that, don't play with them again.

[topt]

yes, you are responsible of the actions of your party, including your caddy, but two stroke penalty is wrong.

the penalty is one stroke and replace the ball (rule 18).

if you didn't replace the ball, you didn't finish the hole and therefore you would be disqualified, except if you played match play (lose the hole) or stableford (score zero).

considering the caddy is imposed on you and not really a member of your game party by your choice, you could appeal the one stroke penalty with the committee responsible for the tournament before handing in your scorecard for that round.

when in doubt about a rule, always finish the hole anyway and write down two possible scores, you can ask for a referee ruling before giving back your scorecard, as well as for raising an appeal with the game committee.

in absence of a referee, playing a second ball in potential application of a rule and finishing the hole with both and asking clarification of the rule before handing in the scorecard is also acceptable.

OP I agree with manarak but I do not understand if you knew it was a no gimme contest why you did not replace the ball and putt it out? If you did and they still gave the penalty then poster scubascuba3 is probably right.

For the future I would suggest that you ask for a caddy with "experience" and whilst not fool proof may avoid such occurrences in the future.

[lovelomsak]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

[topt]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Yes. and sometimes no.

I don't mean this disrespectfully but take it you have not played much in Thailand?

Unfortunately many courses do not train their caddies so they learn on the job - if they are any good. Even those that mentor in a group cannot do much if your ball position is a long way from the other players balls.

Even caddies who have been there many years may simply have no interest - IE like 9-5 in an office and going through the motions.

They vary from the very good to basically a bag puller or cart driver. Sometimes they cannot even give you the correct distances especially to anything other than the centre of the green.....

Edited November 29, 2015 by topt

[chuckd]

In a cut throat competition, mark your own ball and carry a copy of the rules of golf in your bag.

[manarak]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Beyond the caddies' own knowledge and capabilities, the rules view the caddie as being is the same game party as you, so the caddie can give advice on anything, same as another player in your team when playing a team game.

In any tournament, the wisest behavior for a player is to always perform any sensitive task himself, including marking the ball on the green and removing debris. They don't know where it is allowed and where not.

One time I had to tell the caddie off from bending a tree away that was interfering with my swing, another proceeded with trampling down high grass around my ball... they mean well but...

Also, don't listen to caddies when it comes to rules - when my ball was outside the green with a water sprinkler on my putt line and not interfering with my stance, my caddie advised a free drop...

On the other hand, I recently played with someone who has the bad habit of pivoting his body on his heels after picking up the ball in the ball, leaving very ugly marks on the green everytime, I wanted to shoot him.

[Supaluke]

I can never take golf that seriously!

But my Brother-in-law does, so I understand.

[topt]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Also, don't listen to caddies when it comes to rules - when my ball was outside the green with a water sprinkler on my putt line and not interfering with my stance, my caddie advised a free drop...

This sort of thing happens a lot - especially where to drop if your ball has gone into a hazard, jungle or is unplayable. However I also find many players just don't know (or conveniently forget) the rules on dropping so caddiies then pick up bad habits from other players.

[HooHaa]

what do i think, i think it is the perfect example of a first world problem.

[carter1882]

What would I do? I would learn to speak Thai. Hey, the language of golf is hardly difficult. Half of the words are the same anyway. If you like I can help you with the vocabulary. Orn, patt, raff, ander paar, boogii....there's a start.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[DDbkh]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Yes. and sometimes no.

I don't mean this disrespectfully but take it you have not played much in Thailand?

Unfortunately many courses do not train their caddies so they learn on the job - if they are any good. Even those that mentor in a group cannot do much if your ball position is a long way from the other players balls.

Even caddies who have been there many years may simply have no interest - IE like 9-5 in an office and going through the motions.

They vary from the very good to basically a bag puller or cart driver. Sometimes they cannot even give you the correct distances especially to anything other than the centre of the green.....

This is why if you get a really good caddy - keep her Caddy number so that you can book her the next time you play at that course. Its also a good idea to get her mobile number so that you can text her in case the office forgets to tell her. When you are playing golf for four + hours it makes sense to have a caddy who doesn't disturb you. she can may also help you but you shouldn't expect a Steve Williams or Bones for THB350!

Most groups I have played with in Thailand accept that caddies break the rules unknowingly and allow a 'first-time' warning to the player, after that you are on your own - so always mark your own ball.

[smotherb]

What a picayune reason for a post and especially so for a two-stroke penalty. Simply replace your ball and putt. If anyone objects, laugh them off the green. You cannot be held responsible for someone not of your choosing, especially if that someone does not understand the lingua franca. Why do so many try to ruin such an honorable game with such petty bull?

[fakename]

Above all, get her telephone number!

[CapeCobra]

And when searching for your ball, remember that ball in Thai is called "my bon". The caddy will always find her/his ball but never yours.

[superal]

In a cut throat competition, mark your own ball and carry a copy of the rules of golf in your bag.

And fill in your own score card , never ever rely on a caddy to do this ( some will offer ) as I found out from my own experience

[Krataiboy]

End of the world, clearly.

[manarak]

In a cut throat competition, mark your own ball and carry a copy of the rules of golf in your bag.

And fill in your own score card , never ever rely on a caddy to do this ( some will offer ) as I found out from my own experience

correct, the player himself is always responsible for the correct score being written down.

[sloperating]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Yes. and sometimes no.

I don't mean this disrespectfully but take it you have not played much in Thailand?

Unfortunately many courses do not train their caddies so they learn on the job - if they are any good. Even those that mentor in a group cannot do much if your ball position is a long way from the other players balls.

Even caddies who have been there many years may simply have no interest - IE like 9-5 in an office and going through the motions.

They vary from the very good to basically a bag puller or cart driver. Sometimes they cannot even give you the correct distances especially to anything other than the centre of the green.....

This is why if you get a really good caddy - keep her Caddy number so that you can book her the next time you play at that course. Its also a good idea to get her mobile number so that you can text her in case the office forgets to tell her. When you are playing golf for four + hours it makes sense to have a caddy who doesn't disturb you. she can may also help you but you shouldn't expect a Steve Williams or Bones for THB350!

Most groups I have played with in Thailand accept that caddies break the rules unknowingly and allow a 'first-time' warning to the player, after that you are on your own - so always mark your own ball.

In social play you can pretty much do what you like but allowing a 'first-time' warning is, in itself, a breach of Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.

[topt]

In a cut throat competition, mark your own ball and carry a copy of the rules of golf in your bag.

And fill in your own score card , never ever rely on a caddy to do this ( some will offer ) as I found out from my own experience

correct, the player himself is always responsible for the correct score being written down.

If you are playing a comp you should be switching cards with another player anyway.........

[manarak]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

Yes. and sometimes no.

I don't mean this disrespectfully but take it you have not played much in Thailand?

Unfortunately many courses do not train their caddies so they learn on the job - if they are any good. Even those that mentor in a group cannot do much if your ball position is a long way from the other players balls.

Even caddies who have been there many years may simply have no interest - IE like 9-5 in an office and going through the motions.

They vary from the very good to basically a bag puller or cart driver. Sometimes they cannot even give you the correct distances especially to anything other than the centre of the green.....

This is why if you get a really good caddy - keep her Caddy number so that you can book her the next time you play at that course. Its also a good idea to get her mobile number so that you can text her in case the office forgets to tell her. When you are playing golf for four + hours it makes sense to have a caddy who doesn't disturb you. she can may also help you but you shouldn't expect a Steve Williams or Bones for THB350!

Most groups I have played with in Thailand accept that caddies break the rules unknowingly and allow a 'first-time' warning to the player, after that you are on your own - so always mark your own ball.

In social play you can pretty much do what you like but allowing a 'first-time' warning is, in itself, a breach of Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.

yes...

although I think when players are forced to play with a caddie provided by the club/course the best practice would be to consider these caddies as not being part of the player's game party, so when the caddie makes a mistake, the player would just have to replace his ball and not incur a penalty.

other examples of rule bending I consider useful in non-official and non-handicapping are:

- free drop if the ball rests in a divot on the fairway

- ok to repair/flatten spike marks and other abnormal damages to the green

[manarak]

In a cut throat competition, mark your own ball and carry a copy of the rules of golf in your bag.

And fill in your own score card , never ever rely on a caddy to do this ( some will offer ) as I found out from my own experience

correct, the player himself is always responsible for the correct score being written down.

If you are playing a comp you should be switching cards with another player anyway.........

yes, but you are still responsible yourself for the hole by hole score written on your card when you hand it in

[topt]

What a picayune reason for a post and especially so for a two-stroke penalty. Simply replace your ball and putt. If anyone objects, laugh them off the green. You cannot be held responsible for someone not of your choosing, especially if that someone does not understand the lingua franca. Why do so many try to ruin such an honorable game with such petty bull?

Thanks for the new word - although not sure how to pronounce it

I note the OP has not been back and I am guessing he did not replace his ball and putt out which as many have pointed out would be the obvious solution.

Golf can be a great social game but can also lead to a lot of irritation with your playing partners if the ground rules aren't set before you start. I play most of my golf with a group who do not run an overall competition and therefore it is up to each individual how they want to interpret the rules. If I wager at all it is with people I have played with before and even then we do not get too anal about it. However I have to confess I do struggle sometimes with certain peoples definition of where to drop even though it has been discussed before with them .

At the end of the day it should be enjoyable (even if you are playing badly ). If it wasn't then I would stop playing.

[topt]

This is why if you get a really good caddy - keep her Caddy number so that you can book her the next time you play at that course. Its also a good idea to get her mobile number so that you can text her in case the office forgets to tell her. When you are playing golf for four + hours it makes sense to have a caddy who doesn't disturb you. she can may also help you but you shouldn't expect a Steve Williams or Bones for THB350!

Most groups I have played with in Thailand accept that caddies break the rules unknowingly and allow a 'first-time' warning to the player, after that you are on your own - so always mark your own ball.

In social play you can pretty much do what you like but allowing a 'first-time' warning is, in itself, a breach of Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.

yes...

although I think when players are forced to play with a caddie provided by the club/course the best practice would be to consider these caddies as not being part of the player's game party, so when the caddie makes a mistake, the player would just have to replace his ball and not incur a penalty.

other examples of rule bending I consider useful in non-official and non-handicapping are:

- free drop if the ball rests in a divot on the fairway

- ok to repair/flatten spike marks and other abnormal damages to the green

Yes but ideally agreed up front before someone does it.

[manarak]

yes...

although I think when players are forced to play with a caddie provided by the club/course the best practice would be to consider these caddies as not being part of the player's game party, so when the caddie makes a mistake, the player would just have to replace his ball and not incur a penalty.

other examples of rule bending I consider useful in non-official and non-handicapping are:

- free drop if the ball rests in a divot on the fairway

- ok to repair/flatten spike marks and other abnormal damages to the green

Yes but ideally agreed up front before someone does it.

of course!

[bazza40]

The better informed members here can help me with something this post brought to mind for me. I donot wish to disturb the post but wish to understand something here.

I always thought caddies knew the game and the player could even seek advice on how to play the hole or the situation. Even give advice on best club to use etc. Am I wrong on this?

You can seek advice from a caddie; however, it doesn't mean the advice will be right or that you have to accept it.

Caddies in Thailand are highly variable in quality. Some are competent, some far from it. Different in places like the Old Course at St. Andrews, they have to pass a stringent exam before they are let loose on players.

I expect a caddie to be first to my ball, hand me the club requested, rake out bunkers after me and be in the correct position while I'm playing the shot. I only ask for yardage advice. Good caddies get an extra tip from me, bad caddies get the minimum. I used to be a caddie myself, so I am sympathetic to their cause.

[bazza40]

the default is for the caddy to mark the ball, say nothing and she will mark it.

The real problem here is the 2 shot penalty. What knob imposed that, don't play with them again.

Agree. Unless it's an official competition with prizes attached, we are not playing for sheep stations. As another poster has pointed out, in the event of doubt you have the option of playing a second ball and submitting both scores to the match committee/scorer at the end of the round.

There are golfers who are sticklers for the rules. In that case, either learn the rules or don't play with them.