Why I never have, and never will fly a budget airline.

[robhufton]

Here's the official report, all 206 pages: http://kemhubri.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/Final%20Report%20PK-AXC.pdf

Yes, there was a problem with the tail rudder limiter on the aircraft, but the plane was perfectly airworthy. But because the tail rudder limiter was faulty, they pulled a black circuit breaker which turned off the autopilot and put it into "alternate law". The airplane banked to 54 degrees...they corrected the bank...but then the rudder (which was off by 2 degrees) caused the aircraft to descend, at which point, the crew put the aircraft into a steep climb, which eventually caused a stall. The stall could have been quickly recovered by pointing the nose down and regaining lift. However, the Indonesian Captain was telling the French First Officer to "pull down", which added to the confusion. The nose remained up and the aircraft plummeted to the sea.

The stall was very recoverable and it's amazing that a Captain who had 20,000 hours flying and who had just had his 6-monthly check (which includes stall recovery) was unable to identify and recover the stall. All they had to do was fly the plane instead of being distracted by the faulty tail rudder limiter.

I think there was a dual input problem during this incident (like Air France)...don't know why Airbus doesn't do anything about this. Apparently, you can have two opposite control inputs at the same time and one will override without the other pilot feeling it in the controls.

Whilst the rudder electrical issue was a contributing factor in the crash, the primary cause has to be pilot error, by being unable to recover a stall which they are regularly trained on.

I think that modern aircraft today are so automated that the pilots forget, (or don't know), how to actually FLY the aircraft.

[gandalf12]

If the air fare is cheap there is a reason why it is cheap and the obvious thing they will cut back, the passenger cant see it, is the maintanence. No way in hell would I ever fly these airlines to save a bit of money just not worth it.

[gandalf12]

Why would the authorities let only budget airlines get away with poor maintenance & repairs?

Why would they be more strict towards other airlines?

Either you trust the authorities, or you don't.

If Air Asia was at fault, then so were the countries in which they operated, and most probably the other airlines as well.

Because they do what the are obliged to do. National flights do not come under the FAA so they do as little as possible. If International from Asia they may well have a regional local airworthyness company that issues the certificate. In this case they are being ngligent in their duties.

Edited December 3, 2015 by gandalf12

[impulse]

E.g. Singapore and Cathay are very good, but they do not always fly the Budget routes.

And therein lies the rub. If you refuse to fly budget, you're going to miss out an a lot of life's experiences. Unless you drive instead, which is many times more dangerous than the crappiest budget airline available in Asia. And if you want to visit an island, there's the ferry ride. A whole 'nother topic of safety nightmares.

[nidieunimaitre]

OK guys that's it, I've taken as much abuse as I am willing to accept on this topic.

And to carter1882 you've absolutely no idea how much I can spend, but I'm sure you would not believe me if I told you.

I'm not on Thaivisa to be offended, ridiculed etc. I was merely stating why I will not fly budget airlines, and I stand by my statement.

So go ahead as much as you like I'm out of here.

Yermanee

Nobody offended or ridiculed you.

Touchy are we?

[rijit]

TBh only time i took a stand and refused to.save money on a flight was with aerofloc in the early 90's on flights to India from the UK were 25% cheaper than others however there Were regular unscheduled stoppovers in the likes of leningrad Moscow with no acomodation provided. The longest i heard was 5 days in leningrad. God knows what the maintenance or safety standards were like.

[petermik]

OK guys that's it, I've taken as much abuse as I am willing to accept on this topic.

And to carter1882 you've absolutely no idea how much I can spend, but I'm sure you would not believe me if I told you.

I'm not on Thaivisa to be offended, ridiculed etc. I was merely stating why I will not fly budget airlines, and I stand by my statement.

So go ahead as much as you like I'm out of here.

Yermanee

Nobody offended or ridiculed you.

Touchy are we?

No just pi**ed at the fact few people agreed with him................

[F4UCorsair]

OK guys that's it, I've taken as much abuse as I am willing to accept on this topic.

And to carter1882 you've absolutely no idea how much I can spend, but I'm sure you would not believe me if I told you.

I'm not on Thaivisa to be offended, ridiculed etc. I was merely stating why I will not fly budget airlines, and I stand by my statement.

So go ahead as much as you like I'm out of here.

Yermanee

Without us having the benefit of how you, a consumer, knows you're flying with a 'reputable' airline. That's a shame, because I thought we were going to be treated to inside info on selecting a 'reputable' airline.

I'm not abusing you, so maybe you can communicate via PM. I'd like to be the beneficiary of such a font of knowledge.

Edited December 3, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[spidermike007]

I completely trust budget airlines that fly to civilized countries.

They cut non safety related costs, but abide by the same safety rules as the expensive airlines.

Absolutely correct. The budget airlines have excellent safety records. I fly them all the time. I do not think the major carriers necessarily have better safety records. And the difference in cost can sometimes be prohibitive.

AirAsia never had a deadly crash before Flight 8501 went down. Never. Do you have any idea how many flights a day they operate? Probably thousands. I am a fatalist. When it is my time, the grim reaper will find me no matter where I am, or what airline I am flying on.

Edited December 3, 2015 by spidermike007

[bazza40]

Hope i dont jinx it but ive found jetstar asia very reliable....theyre part of qantas.

Every time i board i glance at the cockpit and theres usually a farang fellow behind the wheel.

And your point is?

The point is English is the international language for the airline industry. So having a native English speaking falang at the wheel is preferable from the viewpoint of communication. The Air Asia crash is being partly blamed on an Indonesian pilot who gave a confused instruction in English to the first officer when the aircraft was approaching a stall condition.

Apropos of this, the decision by the Thai government to prefer education in English by English-speaking Thais in preference to native English-speaking teachers is looking increasingly like a death spiral.

[nidieunimaitre]

Hope i dont jinx it but ive found jetstar asia very reliable....theyre part of qantas.

Every time i board i glance at the cockpit and theres usually a farang fellow behind the wheel.

And your point is?

The point is English is the international language for the airline industry. So having a native English speaking falang at the wheel is preferable from the viewpoint of communication. The Air Asia crash is being partly blamed on an Indonesian pilot who gave a confused instruction in English to the first officer when the aircraft was approaching a stall condition.

Apropos of this, the decision by the Thai government to prefer education in English by English-speaking Thais in preference to native English-speaking teachers is looking increasingly like a death spiral.

I see.

All farangs are native English speakers.

All coloured people are native Swahili etc speakers.

Sure.

[2fishin2]

Just to make my point about never flying budget airlines more clear here is my take on this unfortunate incident :

Fact : The problem with the faulty circuit board was known for 12 months and nothing was done about it.

Fact : The faulty circuit board caused 23 malfunctions in that period of time.

Fact : The crew did indeed exacerbate the malfunction but if it had not been faulty there would have been NO malfunction of the said part.

Fact : Who let inexperienced pilots fly the plane ?

I hope I've made my point.

Yermanee

I agree with everything you say.

However I disagree with what you imply.

Given the chance, (and in Asia the chance IS given) I am sure big airlines WILL do the same.

50% of the blame should go to the authorities.

Exactly right. Major airlines Do exactly the same.

A lot of 'maintenance' is done on a computer screen, often the same screens (certainly on Boeing aircraft), that the pilots use to input flight plan information. Maintenance engineers laugh it off as 'the keyboard is mightier than the spanner'!

If a fault is reported by pilots, or is revealed on the BITE (Built In Test Equipment), a check is done on the system by maintenance engineers. It frequently tests OK and is signed off as good to fly, but I don't think 23 such 'sign offs' on the same system would be permitted or legal.

Solder 'dry joints' can be an electronics tech's worst nightmare, difficult to find because of their intermittent nature, and subject to different performance under different thermal conditions.

Having said all that, not recovering the aircraft from the stall seems odd to me. It should have been possible right down to 10,000 feet, without difficulty, and I've seen it done from 6,000', in the simulator, but the crew were wound up like a clockspring, ready to act at the first stick shaker indication, but suffering severe sphincter chattering over the last 600 feet!!

"Cold" solder joints

[duanebigsby]

Hope i dont jinx it but ive found jetstar asia very reliable....theyre part of qantas.

Every time i board i glance at the cockpit and theres usually a farang fellow behind the wheel.

And your point is?

The point is English is the international language for the airline industry. So having a native English speaking falang at the wheel is preferable from the viewpoint of communication. The Air Asia crash is being partly blamed on an Indonesian pilot who gave a confused instruction in English to the first officer when the aircraft was approaching a stall condition.

Apropos of this, the decision by the Thai government to prefer education in English by English-speaking Thais in preference to native English-speaking teachers is looking increasingly like a death spiral.

He said "farang"" pilots are decent, anyone else is inferior. What about the French, German, Polish, Portuguese, etc farangs.

They have the same language barrier.

Perhaps only RP speakers from southern England should be allowed to pilot. Maybe all the ground crew from around the world should be replaced with Brits as well.

[melvinmelvin]

Hope i dont jinx it but ive found jetstar asia very reliable....theyre part of qantas.

Every time i board i glance at the cockpit and theres usually a farang fellow behind the wheel.

And your point is?

The point is English is the international language for the airline industry. So having a native English speaking falang at the wheel is preferable from the viewpoint of communication. The Air Asia crash is being partly blamed on an Indonesian pilot who gave a confused instruction in English to the first officer when the aircraft was approaching a stall condition.

Apropos of this, the decision by the Thai government to prefer education in English by English-speaking Thais in preference to native English-speaking teachers is looking increasingly like a death spiral.

having a native English speaker at the wheel doesn't mean the communication with tower/other crafts or whatever goes more smooth,

that will depend on the language abilities of the person at the other end

I think its a fairly common mistake to assume that a native English speaker is better understood (than others) by Thais/Indonesians/Chinese or whatever.

[nithisa78]

I feel terrible because I have a (non refundable) flight booked with one of these Budget Airlines in April (to escape the Song Kran madness)

Will wait and see what happens, but if the situation doesn't improve I'm going to cut my losses and book with a regular (foreign) airline, or choose another destination, or stay indoors

Edit: I also never fly budget airlines, but I booked a hotel via a Booking Site and this Airline had a good time schedule to fly us to the destination and back, so you see you should stick to your principals

Let not fear prevail above your will.

We can run, but we can't hide.

[sanukjim]

I feel terrible because I have a (non refundable) flight booked with one of these Budget Airlines in April (to escape the Song Kran madness)

Will wait and see what happens, but if the situation doesn't improve I'm going to cut my losses and book with a regular (foreign) airline, or choose another destination, or stay indoors

Edit: I also never fly budget airlines, but I booked a hotel via a Booking Site and this Airline had a good time schedule to fly us to the destination and back, so you see you should stick to your principals

You fly on an airline that promotes their pilots by who his family is and you take your chance.Hell they probbily on crash or an inncident once for every 300 flights.Save a $100.Is that being brave or stupid.

[mcfish]

Air asia, This was the worst type of accident, 30 full seconds of an intact aircraft spinning out of control. Dont want to imagine the screaming... much better to slam into a mountain in the bad weather

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

Edited December 3, 2015 by mcfish

[2fishin2]

Air asia, This was the worst type of accident, 30 full seconds of an intact aircraft spinning out of control. Dont want to imagine the screaming... much better to slam into a mountain in the bad weather

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

You were there and witnessed all this? Good on ya any more gory details you care to let us in on.

This was AA first fatal and major accident since inception. Your apt to be struck by lightening 7 times rather than be involved in an airplane accident.

[F4UCorsair]

I feel terrible because I have a (non refundable) flight booked with one of these Budget Airlines in April (to escape the Song Kran madness)

Will wait and see what happens, but if the situation doesn't improve I'm going to cut my losses and book with a regular (foreign) airline, or choose another destination, or stay indoors

Edit: I also never fly budget airlines, but I booked a hotel via a Booking Site and this Airline had a good time schedule to fly us to the destination and back, so you see you should stick to your principals

You fly on an airline that promotes their pilots by who his family is and you take your chance.Hell they probbily on crash or an inncident once for every 300 flights.Save a $100.Is that being brave or stupid.

Sanukjim, if you're going to make wild claims about promotions and number of incidents, you really need to provide some references if you wish to be believed.

[F4UCorsair]

I think there is a lot of confusion here about low cost carriers, maintenance, cost cutting, etc.

LCC's are the opposite end of the spectrum to Full Service Airlines. It's a service related issue, from booking, restrictive conditions, no flexibility, through to no cabin service, but available at an exorbitant cos, frequently not using aerobridges. Crew salaries on LCC's are also well below those on full service carriers, but there is no mention of compromising on maintenance.

The manufacturers provide maintenance schedules, created from experience of having aircraft flying over many years. The schedule is the MINIMUM requirement, and many airlines exceed those requirements, based on their own operational experience. I imagine that LCC's would be less likely to do more, but they must still comply with the minimum.

I've flown for both full service and LCC's, and from my perspective, the only differences were salary, catering, and tarmac loading rather than via aerobridges.

LCC's generally have strict closure of checkins, enabling the same checkin staff to scan boarding passes in the gate lounges. Flight attendants do interior aircraft cleaning, unlike full service which have cleaners. LCC's generally have shorter turnaround times, allowing higher utilization. One more sector a day, and the overall operating cost per seat goes down.

So, there are many and myriad differences between LCC's and Full Service Airlines, but from my experience, they don't include wilfully cutting of required maintenance. Where money is involved, I have no doubt that it occurs, but it occurs for both LCC's and FSA's.

Edited December 3, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[derator01]

Be civil to other members and please stick to the topic. Sad Yermanee had to drop out.

[F4UCorsair]

He didn't have to Mod01, but when he made the claim that he flys only with 'reputable' airlines, it begged the question, 'what is a 'reputable'airline?

I guess he couldn't, or didn't want to, answer the question. Dropping out seemed the easy option.

I didn't see any insults, so maybe he's just a little sensitive?

[craigt3365]

He didn't have to Mod01, but when he made the claim that he flys only with 'reputable' airlines, it begged the question, 'what is a 'reputable'airline?

I guess he couldn't, or didn't want to, answer the question. Dropping out seemed the easy option.

I didn't see any insults, so maybe he's just a little sensitive?

He's a reputable man. And can afford not to fly budget airlines. Sadly, I'm not in that position. I wish I could afford business class on every flight! LOL But back of the bus for me....

[F4UCorsair]

He didn't have to Mod01, but when he made the claim that he flys only with 'reputable' airlines, it begged the question, 'what is a 'reputable'airline?

I guess he couldn't, or didn't want to, answer the question. Dropping out seemed the easy option.

I didn't see any insults, so maybe he's just a little sensitive?

He's a reputable man. And can afford not to fly budget airlines. Sadly, I'm not in that position. I wish I could afford business class on every flight! LOL But back of the bus for me....

I don't think personal reputation has anything to do with it, but money does, unless of course, you're suggesting that reputable people only travel on reputable airlines??

Having said that, he may well be, as I am, but when you make a claim that a particular airline is 'reputable', I think it's reasonable to ask on what basis that assessment was/is made. Passengers wouldn't know if the flight crew have maintained a heading within 20 degrees, or an altitude within a thousand feet, during the flight, or busted the minima on arrival, so they base their assessment on the smoothness of the landing, or the level of cabin service. The issues that matter, pilot training, maintenance, audit results, are FAR more important, yet they are information to which no member of the public has access, so is unable to make a reliable judgement.

It seems he didn't want to answer, but to suggest he was being insulted, by others or me, didn't make any sense to me.

We are all different.

I frequently travel Business Class, but I'm not stupid about it. It's difficult to justify, for me, for a short/ish flight, whereas a longer night flight, the decision is easy.

I travelled on an Air Asia, Flat Bed Sleeper, last year on a 9 hour night flight, Bangkok to Melbourne, only because I'd booked several months ahead and it was a ridiculously cheap $257. I was disappointed by the 'flat bed' description because it certainly wasn't flat, with my feet about 20 cm lower than my head, and I consequently slid down all night. Other than that, I thought AA cabin service was good, but have no idea of what the guys up front were like.

Edited December 4, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[worgeordie]

yermanee

one day we will die whether on the ground,in the sea or up in the air and for whatever reason old age,illness etc. that day is marked somewhere in the future so don,t worry about a triviality as this-next time you travel in any vehicle I suggest you ask to see the maintainance records and give it a thorough inspection yourself........................

Aha here we go. Do not attack the facts but attack the OP.

I'm 79 and fly reputable airlines only, maybe some of my longevity is thanks to that.

Keep flying budget airlines as far as I'm concerned.

Yermanee

You have more chance of been killed by lightening,and defiantly a greater

chance of been killed crossing the road here,than dieing in a air crash,

so i suppose you better not go out your home.just to stay safe.

regards Worgeordie

[2fishin2]

I think there is a lot of confusion here about low cost carriers, maintenance, cost cutting, etc.

LCC's are the opposite end of the spectrum to Full Service Airlines. It's a service related issue, from booking, restrictive conditions, no flexibility, through to no cabin service, but available at an exorbitant cos, frequently not using aerobridges. Crew salaries on LCC's are also well below those on full service carriers, but there is no mention of compromising on maintenance.

The manufacturers provide maintenance schedules, created from experience of having aircraft flying over many years. The schedule is the MINIMUM requirement, and many airlines exceed those requirements, based on their own operational experience. I imagine that LCC's would be less likely to do more, but they must still comply with the minimum.

I've flown for both full service and LCC's, and from my perspective, the only differences were salary, catering, and tarmac loading rather than via aerobridges.

LCC's generally have strict closure of checkins, enabling the same checkin staff to scan boarding passes in the gate lounges. Flight attendants do interior aircraft cleaning, unlike full service which have cleaners. LCC's generally have shorter turnaround times, allowing higher utilization. One more sector a day, and the overall operating cost per seat goes down.

So, there are many and myriad differences between LCC's and Full Service Airlines, but from my experience, they don't include wilfully cutting of required maintenance. Where money is involved, I have no doubt that it occurs, but it occurs for both LCC's and FSA's.

best post of entire thread. Maintenance is not driven by budgets but by the actions themselves. Does it happen no doubt but, as a norm no it does not.

[Don Mega]

Hope i dont jinx it but ive found jetstar asia very reliable....theyre part of qantas.

Every time i board i glance at the cockpit and theres usually a farang fellow behind the wheel.

And your point is?

The point is English is the international language for the airline industry. So having a native English speaking falang at the wheel is preferable from the viewpoint of communication. The Air Asia crash is being partly blamed on an Indonesian pilot who gave a confused instruction in English to the first officer when the aircraft was approaching a stall condition.

Apropos of this, the decision by the Thai government to prefer education in English by English-speaking Thais in preference to native English-speaking teachers is looking increasingly like a death spiral.

He said "farang"" pilots are decent, anyone else is inferior. What about the French, German, Polish, Portuguese, etc farangs.

They have the same language barrier.

Perhaps only RP speakers from southern England should be allowed to pilot. Maybe all the ground crew from around the world should be replaced with Brits as well.

A frog was involved in the crashing of the Air Asia flight.

I'll not board a plane unless I know the pilots are fluent in english.

[JLCrab]

I flew on ValuJet from Washington DC to Orlando the day before this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

[craigt3365]

A frog was involved in the crashing of the Air Asia flight.

I'll not board a plane unless I know the pilots are fluent in english.

I love this video...at least because I wasn't on that plane!!!!

[JLCrab]

A frog was involved in the crashing of the Air Asia flight.

I'll not board a plane unless I know the pilots are fluent in english.

I love this video...at least because I wasn't on that plane!!!!

< snip >

Well at least they made it all the way from China to JFK.