UK expats for EU exit

[evadgib]

The '15 year' clock was reset when I updated my entry a few months ago...

Edited December 17, 2015 by evadgib

[i claudius]

I fear that Dave will come back waving a document saying we have got everything we wanted(just like anotherP M came back from Germany saying "peace in our time" ) and that it will be as worthless as that document was , I vote out ,they need us much more than we need them ,and believe me I have no problem with our continental cousins,just ,Brussels and all it stands for

[MaeJoMTB]

Same here, and I can't now see how any "renegotiation" can come up with terms which would persuade me to vote to remain in the EU. However, being realistic, the opinions of expats living in countries like Thailand are likely to be far outweighed by those of UK citizens resident within other EU countries, and if I were retired or working in, say, France or Spain I would be very nervous about the possible repercussions of Brexit, and vote accordingly.

How do you think the UK leaving the EU would negatively affect UK citizens resident in EU countries?

(Remember, it's the EEA agreement that gives the right to live and work in other EEA countries)

[Richard W]

Same here, and I can't now see how any "renegotiation" can come up with terms which would persuade me to vote to remain in the EU. However, being realistic, the opinions of expats living in countries like Thailand are likely to be far outweighed by those of UK citizens resident within other EU countries, and if I were retired or working in, say, France or Spain I would be very nervous about the possible repercussions of Brexit, and vote accordingly.

How do you think the UK leaving the EU would negatively affect UK citizens resident in EU countries?

(Remember, it's the EEA agreement that gives the right to live and work in other EEA countries)

Who's declared that a no vote means transferring to the EEA?

[MartinL]

Unfortunately, according to news I've had from an organization that's been campaigning for 'Votes for Ex-Pats', it's likely that a vote in any EU Referendum will NOT be extended to ex-pats outside EU. So it appears that I, and other UK ex-pats in Thailand, will be disenfranchised on this one.

That is not so.

Part of the text of the e-mail I received is as follows:-

The Referendum Bill - Update

Our lobbying has already had an impact: see here ITV's report on the debate during committee stage on 2 Nov:---

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-02/lords-argue-five-million-brits-living-abroad-should-get-a-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/ and also our report on the debate below this email. However, we need to keep up the pressure!

1. The Report Stage takes place in the House of Lords from Wed 18 November. Baroness Miller (Lib Dem) will introduce an amendment to give all British Citizens in the EU a vote in the Referendum. Those resident outside the EU will not be included as this is unlikely to be accepted. When Baroness Miller presents her amendment, it is likely that the Government will tell (whip) its members not to vote for it, and may even urge them to vote against it. Labour might also whip against it. Baroness Miller's amendment is thus likely to fail unless Labour & Conservative peers are persuaded otherwise by our lobbying.(My addition - it appears the amendment WAS defeated)

The above is the latest info. I've received, personally, by e-mail although things have changed, apparently.

Also see this - http://votes-for-expat-brits-blog.com/2015/11/20/eu-ref-bill-18-nov-defeat-of-lords-amendment-to-include-all-eu-resident-british-expats/

Eff1n2ret might be correct, if I misunderstood para.1 above and interpreted it as meaning that the amendment referred to those living abroad (EU & non-EU) rather than only those living abroad for 15+ years - no reference to 15 years is made above.

This FT report says that ALL expats of less than 15 years abroad will be eligible:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9530fc1a-a285-11e5-bc70-7ff6d4fd203a.html#axzz3uZq7lwRY

It looks as if the 15 Year Rule will be subject of its own Bill one day and might eventually be repealed.

[Eff1n2ret]

Same here, and I can't now see how any "renegotiation" can come up with terms which would persuade me to vote to remain in the EU. However, being realistic, the opinions of expats living in countries like Thailand are likely to be far outweighed by those of UK citizens resident within other EU countries, and if I were retired or working in, say, France or Spain I would be very nervous about the possible repercussions of Brexit, and vote accordingly.

How do you think the UK leaving the EU would negatively affect UK citizens resident in EU countries?

(Remember, it's the EEA agreement that gives the right to live and work in other EEA countries)

Who's declared that a no vote means transferring to the EEA?

That's an interesting point. The EEA came into being in 1992, when the UK was already in the EU, and was formed from the EU and the remaining members (except Switzerland)of EFTA, the European Free Trade Association, of which the UK was a member before it joined the EU. I'm not sure that it's a given that the EEA is a 'default position' for any country which leaves the EU. If the UK wanted to remain in the EEA, it might have to apply to join - and why would it, seeing that to do so would mean signing up to the right of free movement, something which most of the voters who had opted to leave the EU thought they were getting rid of.

[nong38]

The powers that be would see ex-pats to be out of the country for some reason or another they are not happy with the UK the way it is currently and therefore would be unlikely to vote for the status quo to continue, they would more likely vote for change, an EU exit. For those who want to stay in the EU it would make sense to obstruct anyone they could from voting against them, ex-pats are seen, in my view, as in that category.

Perhaps someone could do a poll on this site to see what the current position is on whether the UK should leave the EU, my guess that the vast majority more than 75% would be leaving.

The poll question should be ................Should the UK vote to leave the EU?.........................Yes or No.

[Richard W]

That's an interesting point. The EEA came into being in 1992, when the UK was already in the EU, and was formed from the EU and the remaining members (except Switzerland)of EFTA, the European Free Trade Association, of which the UK was a member before it joined the EU. I'm not sure that it's a given that the EEA is a 'default position' for any country which leaves the EU. If the UK wanted to remain in the EEA, it might have to apply to join - and why would it, seeing that to do so would mean signing up to the right of free movement, something which most of the voters who had opted to leave the EU thought they were getting rid of.

It seems that the UK has been a member since its inception! Of course, matters would be different if exit from the EU were achieved by granting England independence.

[evadgib]

EU Referendum Bill receives Royal Assent

[brewsterbudgen]

Unfortunately, according to news I've had from an organization that's been campaigning for 'Votes for Ex-Pats', it's likely that a vote in any EU Referendum will NOT be extended to ex-pats outside EU. So it appears that I, and other UK ex-pats in Thailand, will be disenfranchised on this one.

That is not so.

The EU Referendum Bill, which as far as I can see has recently passed all stages in Parliament and is just waiting Royal Assent states that eligibility to vote will include (inter alia) anyone who is registered to vote in UK General Elections or EU Parliament Elections. This includes those like myself who have registered as overseas voters, which anyone can do if they have lived outside the UK for less than 15 years.

I certainly intend to vote, albeit by proxy as that is the only practical way you can vote from relatively distant countries like Thailand.

Me too. My proxy vote to stay in is assured.

[nong38]

According to the information in comment 39 any ex pat who is registered to vote and who left less than 15 years ago will be able to make their mark. You should been registered in the last constituency you lived in.

[i claudius]

Unfortunately, according to news I've had from an organization that's been campaigning for 'Votes for Ex-Pats', it's likely that a vote in any EU Referendum will NOT be extended to ex-pats outside EU. So it appears that I, and other UK ex-pats in Thailand, will be disenfranchised on this one.

That is not so.

The EU Referendum Bill, which as far as I can see has recently passed all stages in Parliament and is just waiting Royal Assent states that eligibility to vote will include (inter alia) anyone who is registered to vote in UK General Elections or EU Parliament Elections. This includes those like myself who have registered as overseas voters, which anyone can do if they have lived outside the UK for less than 15 years.

I certainly intend to vote, albeit by proxy as that is the only practical way you can vote from relatively distant countries like Thailand.

Me too. My proxy vote to stay in is assured.

and so is mine to get out

[nong38]

Have a look at the Andrew Marr Show on the BBC IPlayer for yesterday. Dr Liam Fox was on and gave reasons why he thought we should leave, I think about 15 minutes into the show and later at minute 32 Sir John Major gave his views, he clearly wants to stay in PROVIDED we get a good deal, but he makes interesting points as well. It is worth looking at. One of the points Sir John made was that it will not be long before the UK is the dominant economy in the EU and how the EU administrators side stepped something that the UK and Germany put foward which has caused a lot of the problems and which he feels needs addressing.

[nong38]

We had aThai couple round today, the husband works in Denmark and his wife naturally wants to live with him. They spend 2 months in Thailand and 10 in Denmark. In order for her to get a visa to stay in Denmark after her initial 6 months she has to demonstrate that she can speak Danish at the end of the 6 months or she will told/asked to leave. Its not easy to learn another language within 6 months, she is making an effort but finds it difficult.

Perhaps it might be an idea for the UK to introduce something similar for refugees/asylum seekers that they should have basic English skills after 1 year to show that they were trying to integrate, failure to do so they should be asked to leave as per Denmark, sadly I dont think Dave has this on his shopping list for the EU, but, if we left then we could put it on the agenda and turn it into law, what do you think, good idea?

Edited December 25, 2015 by nong38

[SgtRock]

nong38, on 25 Dec 2015 - 20:04, said:

We had aThai couple round today, the husband works in Denmark and his wife naturally wants to live with him. They spend 2 months in Thailand and 10 in Denmark. In order for her to get a visa to stay in Denmark after her initial 6 months she has to demonstrate that she can speak Danish at the end of the 6 months or she will told/asked to leave. Its not easy to learn another language within 6 months, she is making an effort but finds it difficult.

Perhaps it might be an idea for the UK to introduce something similar for refugees/asylum seekers that they should have basic English skills after 1 year to show that they were trying to integrate, failure to do so they should be asked to leave as per Denmark, sadly I dont think Dave has this on his shopping list for the EU, but, if we left then we could put it on the agenda and turn it into law, what do you think, good idea?

There are different laws, rules and regulations that govern those that wish to legally migrate to those that are Asylum Seekers / refugees.

As far as the AS / Refugees are concerned, once they have landed on your shores they are very much there to stay. A simple claim of persecution and their life is in danger if they return home guarantees their stay in the host Country.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It is not something that is going to change in our lifetimes.

[SgtRock]

Poker hands are now being dealt fast and furious.

You will remember that Cameron was loudly denounced over his 4 year benefit ban. How it was against the very tenents of EU principles, other member states would never agree to it yada yada.

Hollande and Merkel have offered a compromise it seems.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande have suggested a counter offer of three years to Cameron’s initial demand of a four-year ban on social benefits for EU migrants, the sources said.

At the recent summit discussion on Cameron’s demands, Poland, Lithuania, Portugal and Spain all “raised significant concerns” about the four-year ban, according to a European diplomat.

Other countries like Belgium saw the reform proposal as “pure discrimination” and a “no-go,” the diplomat said.

http://www.politico.eu/article/cameron-shorter-welfare-benefit-ban-summit-diplomacy-eu-reform/

It is also being reported in The Times, although it is pay per view.

To my mind the 3 or 4 years is nothing more than a red herring. What I take from it, is that the EU, is being run and controlled by both Germany and France.

Had I been Cameron, I would have called their collective bluffs, told them that negotiations were over and schedule a meeting to invoke Article 50.

Sh!t off a shovel would have been a polite way of describing the mayhem that would have ensued within the EU corridors.

[i claudius]

I believe that if Britain leaves the E.U and prospers , it will be the end of the whole idiotic plan , the only ones who prosper by it are those on the gravy train called the E.U .

[SgtRock]

i claudius, on 26 Dec 2015 - 10:25, said:

I believe that if Britain leaves the E.U and prospers , it will be the end of the whole idiotic plan , the only ones who prosper by it are those on the gravy train called the E.U .

Agreed.

I also believe that the thing that scares the EU most is the domino effect. The farce to keep Greece in the EU speaks volumes.

[IMA_FARANG]

Well, I do have an opinion..... but as a Yank I'll just keep my opinion to myself.

[SgtRock]

IMA_FARANG, on 26 Dec 2015 - 10:31, said:

Well, I do have an opinion..... but as a Yank I'll just keep my opinion to myself.

Are you scared

Go on. You know you want to.

Obviously I cannot speak for everyone, but I do not think that anybody will have an issue with anyone who posts an opinion that is coherent, has some merit and is not just an attack on Brits for the hell of it.

[jadee]

The case for the UK leaving seems appealing at first but it's deeply flawed. I'm not sure whether voters who say they want to leave realize the implications. Yes, the UK frequently contributes more to the EU than it gets out (10bn Euros more in 2013) but if the UK left the EU and still wanted to remain in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) like Switzerland and Norway, it would still have to pay.
It's a big assumption that voters would be okay with paying for EFTA membership if they had no say over the rules. Trade with the EU would certainly drop but membership dues wouldn't, would that be okay with the electorate? There are so many questions that economists need to attempt to answer. Far more information is needed if Britons are to make an informed choice. It's scary that the vote is so soon and so little is known or understood.

[SgtRock]

jadee, on 26 Dec 2015 - 11:04, said:

The case for the UK leaving seems appealing at first but it's deeply flawed. I'm not sure whether voters who say they want to leave realize the implications. Yes, the UK frequently contributes more to the EU than it gets out (10bn Euros more in 2013) but if the UK left the EU and still wanted to remain in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) like Switzerland and Norway, it would still have to pay.

It's a big assumption that voters would be okay with paying for EFTA membership if they had no say over the rules. Trade with the EU would certainly drop but membership dues wouldn't, would that be okay with the electorate? There are so many questions that economists need to attempt to answer. Far more information is needed if Britons are to make an informed choice. It's scary that the vote is so soon and so little is known or understood.

jadee a few points for you to consider.

1. Where were the economists is 2008 ? Economists are part of the problem not part of the solution.

2. The UK is a net importer. Any arguments regarding trade is a red herring. If the UK was a net exporter those arguments would have some leverage.

3. The EU as a trading block is in decline. Some will say that decline is terminal. That may be true or it may not. It is time to sort out our own trade agreements without interference.

4. If the UK's current membership fees are 12 Billion, do you really think that equates to a free trade agreement.

I made this point yesterday on another thread. A Governments responsibility is to the people who elect them, not business's. This is what the EU has morphed into, a club for big business. The actual, real, everyday people get next to nothing as part of the EU.

Just my humble observations, which I am sure will not be agreeable with everyone. I am more than happy to be educated to the contrary.

[nong38]

I think the only things that Joe Public gets out of the EU is an easier passage through border controls and using the Euro rather than Francs, Pesetos etc apart from that difficult to see what other tangible benefits we get. I still ask for veg and meat in pounds and ounces unlike the shopkeepers who HAVE to use metric, you might call me old fashioned or you might call me independent.

All that I have heard to try and convince me to stay in is scare mongering from people who like the status quo and are not up for the challenge of being an independent trading nation, like we used to be and why London is still the financial capital of the world despite the EU trying to through spanners in the works!

[buddy]

To stay in is the right thing to do.

To come out is stupid. We all know that.

I do not know that and neither do my friends and family.

What we do know is that the EU stole our democracy, stole our countrys sovereignty and now Britain is ruled by a foreign power without the British peoples consent.

[buddy]

I believe that if Britain leaves the E.U and prospers , it will be the end of the whole idiotic plan , the only ones who prosper by it are those on the gravy train called the E.U .

The ONLY reason the EU wants Britain to stay in is money.

[bendejo]

Back when the Euro went into effect there was some chatter of the possibility that UK could become part of NAFTA. This may have only been from pundit columnists.

Has anyone heard anything about this in recent years?

[brewsterbudgen]

To stay in is the right thing to do.

To come out is stupid. We all know that.

I do not know that and neither do my friends and family.

What we do know is that the EU stole our democracy, stole our countrys sovereignty and now Britain is ruled by a foreign power without the British peoples consent.

What hyperbolic nonsense! Don't you remember there was an election a year or so ago?

[kingalfred]

To stay in is the right thing to do.

To come out is stupid. We all know that.

I do not know that and neither do my friends and family.

What we do know is that the EU stole our democracy, stole our countrys sovereignty and now Britain is ruled by a foreign power without the British peoples consent.

What hyperbolic nonsense! Don't you remember there was an election a year or so ago?

if you knew anything you would know the British House Of Commons does not have the powers it did . EU law over rules. The only way to get it back is to repeal the "Treaty of Rome" and leave the failing EU!

[nong38]

It is being reported to day in the UK media that the draft agreement is out. It also reported that Cameron has not got much of a deal, take a look at the BBC News and the UK paers and see what you think.

If whats being reported is correct Cameron needs to be honest and say its not good enough I cannot sell this the British Public, indeed he should have said to Donald Tusk " If thats your final offer, the best you can do, its not good enough!"

Clearly the EU have misjudged the situation, not only will they miss our contribution but our defence capabilities, innovation, inventions etc etc. They will realize when its to late, well it now looks like its too late.

I have seen nothing in the reported package that makes me want to stay with them, its not the countries and the people, its the Euro beurocrats who run the show and dont take any notice of anyone else, why would you trust them to make any changes, history teaches us you cannot trust them, they can clear up their own mess and get the rest to stump up £55 m a day.

[i claudius]

DavidBonnie, on 10 Dec 2015 - 23:42, said:

Only bigots want to leave the EU

The way things are going in the EU, it is only liberal retards that want to stay in.

3 - 2 - 1 modded.

No need to start calling each other bigots or retards, we're all just British-expats living-in-Thailand and with a right to an opinion, I'm sure we all agree that we have a right to take part in any such vote ?

Personally I'm for staying-in, because I think the UK is too-heavily-dependent on the EU-economy, and would be worse-off outside on-our-own.

But I know there are plenty who'd disagree, or who blame Europe for the economic-chills & refugee-problems, myself I think it's good to face these things with a few friends on our side.

I do accept the EU has problems, and wish that we Brits were working harder to fix things, to actively participate. Better to be inside the tent, peering out with our mates and grumbling, than outside and peeing-in !

Unfortunatly the tent we are in ,peeing out is not full of "our mates" but countrys who either want to sponge of us ,or control us , they just want our money , and if we do leave , you can bet your bottom dollar that the E.U will fall apart sooner rather than later .