Rubber Trees

buriramboy · October 11, 2006

i aquired 20 rai of land outside Buri Ram last year, anyway planted it all with rubber tree saplings this year and while i am aware it will be 4-5 years before they will start making money, i keep hearing so many different stories as to how much money they will make, if anyone could tell me from current experience how much 1 rai of rubber trees should produce every day/week/month i would be most grateful.

Maizefarmer · October 11, 2006

The general consensus is that you will not make yourself rich or maintain a Western lifestyle with that size of plantation - but you'll keep you head above the water (from a Thai lifestyle point of view).

There aint much money in it but so long as they produce you'll always have some cash in your pocket.

Tim

jamescollister · October 11, 2006

Hi I don,t want to burst your bubble, but don't believe what the Thais say about rubber. First you will not be tapping in 4 to 5 years. 7 years is the waiting time, or 46 cm. around the trunk,one metre from the ground.

Are you fertilising, if not look for 8 years, if you cut too early or small you will lose life span on your trees and about 25% less rubber out put over the life of the trees.

I have 7000 trees in the ground, the oldest being 4 odd years old, so I have not got any return yet, but the average out put in my area of issan is 1 kilo per tree per month, so you are looking at 8 or 9 kilos per tree per year, the price per kilo varies, but I worked on a price of 60 baht per kilo. So on 20 rai you should have 1600 trees. You can work out how much you will earn, depending on whether you hire tappers or do a 50/50 deal with a local.

As for myself rubber has been a great investment,[ on paper at least] as the value of the land and trees increase every year, but TIT and who knows what will happen tomorrow. Example 2 months ago rubber was 105 baht per kilo then it went to 56 baht per kilo.

Best of luck with the trees JIM

buriramboy · October 11, 2006

cheers for the info, basically i got the land cheap (less than 200,000 baht for the 20rai), as the family had borrowed on it years ago with no way of paying it back and the 10 years was nearly up when the bank were talking about repossessing it. anyway i agreed to pay it on condition that the land got transferred into my daughters name (she is only 3) this has been done and much to my amazement i even had to sign loads of papers in the land office. the land was growing rice, obviously no money in this, maybe i have taken a gamble but i personally never had any intention of making money myself, just as an investment for my daughters benefit. at the moment i am giving the in-laws 3,000 baht a month and this is to continue till the trees mature (also as a way of compensating them for the money that they no longer get from the rice) then the deal is supposed to be a 60-40 split in my favour, but i had never looked into it so had no idea how much my 60% should equate to every month, hence the question.

jamescollister · October 11, 2006

As a investment for you daughter you cann't go wrong, by the time she is old enough for Uni the trees will be worth more than enough to put her through school. At current prices the lumber value of rubber trees is 100,000 to 150,000 bht per rai, depending on the condition of the lumber. So I guess you cann't lost in the long term

JIM

mark131v · October 11, 2006

Hi Jim,

am i right in thinking that is about 100rai of trees. Reason i ask is that is what we planted 100rai about a year ago (visited a few months ago all going very well and looking good) and we had about 7500 trees put into the ground. We where lucky we got in just before the price of the trees went up but i was just wondering if you had lost many trees over the years. The figures you mention look good and they were about what we were quoted from the brother in law (luckily for us he has worked rubber in Issan for about 4 or 5 years) who is going to do the labour on a 50/50 basis. The total investment for everything 50 rai (the missus already owned 50 rai) and 100rai of rubber tree was about £7000 and it is costing about B50k a year for labour fertiliser etc so providing all goes well it should be a good investment as we both work in the UK and have no intention of returning LOS for a few years. Any advice or tips you can give will be gratefully accepted as its good to hear from someone in a similar position and i hope you do really well out of this

many thanks Mark

jamescollister · October 11, 2006

Hello Mark sounds like you landed on your feet in this deal, but ,there is always a but. Re think the costs of maintanence and fertilser as you need to fertilise twice a year. A lot of locals have been usiing organic fertiliser produced locally, but in my opinnion it is next to useless. Do you own a tractor as you will need to rent one to plough the land for the first 2 years, then to keep the grass down for the next 3 years, fire is a big worry.

Otherwise I would say you are on a winner and probably don't know how much money 7000 trees are worth. A company form the south offered me 6,000,000 bht for a 50 rai block, I said maybe I would think about it at 10,000,000 (jokingly) they said they would look again next year.

Got to go JIM

mark131v · October 11, 2006

Thanks for getting back so quick,

yeah we already new we had a good deal as i said the in laws have been in this business for a few years (primarily for other people but he also has had a few rai of his own for a 3 or 4 years and they all seem to be going well) The reason we got such good prices was through the fact he had contacts and the falang angle was not mentioned also like i said we got in just before the prices went through the roof. The tractor we already have and the land is pretty good and flat but its good to hear the fertiliser angle. I dont know what they are using but i have seen his 3 year old trees and they look in very good condition and seem to be doing well. If we had to rethink how much the overheads are going to be then that is not a problem and i still think it is a bloody good investment as i said we are both working in UK (iam in the forces and fly to Afghanistan this afternoon for 3 months which is sh,'t but never mind) and not planning on returning for a few years. Gone through the prices at baht 105 per kilo and that looks scary good but i know nothing in life and farming is ever clear cut. Thanks again mate for getting back it is appreciated and it is reassuring to know your figures are in the same ball park as mine

have a good one Mark

stoneman · October 11, 2006

". the land was growing rice, obviously no money in this, maybe i have taken a gamble but i personally never had any intention of making money myself,"................................

If this land has been used for growing rice, you could have a problem with standing water during the rainy season...If there is water standing there now and you have no way of draining it, then you have a problem you need to deal with before you put the trees in the ground...I just planted 900 rubber trees into a field that was formerly 35 rice paddies.

I had a back-hoe and bulldozer in for 3 days building terraces and elevated rows to get above any potential standing water..Glad I did... The village elders were not pleased with the farang bulldozing 35 rice paddies

timber · October 12, 2006

timber · October 12, 2006

My in-laws have rubber plantations in the south that they are working. It is hard to get information out of them so I have to guess-timate a bit. They harvest rubber 3 days then leave a day. Not too sure how that compares with the harvest every other day. They don't harvest during a hard rain and there is a fair amount of that you won't get in Issan. I understand that they use rain guards in Brazil. I am not sure how much time is lost due to leaf fall. I think that they harvest rubber about 220 days a year.

My sister-in-law makes about 1000 baht per harvest day for about 7 rai. One person can handle the 7 rai. That is tapping and processing. My brother in-law-has about 20 rai and it is a good day for him and his wife to tap and process.

dan adams · October 12, 2006

My experience tell that for the 20 rai you have to wait for 5 to 7 years and in this you can harvet for 5 days and then leave 1 day. And make it your habit regularly

buriramboy · October 12, 2006

thanks all for the replies, but i am still unsure of what returns i should be expecting in 7 years, if someone can actually put some sort of figure +/- what should be expected on 20 rai per month i would be more than grateful. i understand different conditions in differnet parts of country etc. (buri ram) i would just like a rough estimate and maths ain't my strong point so if could just give rough figure for one month in Thai baht would be most appreciated.

thanks again

buriramboy

timber · October 12, 2006

Dan you said a 5 and 1 ratio of harvest to rest and I said 3 to 1. I am talking about an area on the coast south of chumphon where bouts is your plantation.

Maizefarmer · October 12, 2006

Very roughly: 100kg per acre per year or around 40 - 45kg per rai per year.

That will give you around 900kg per year for 20 rai

Price wise - well, hard to say: recent prices have moved from Baht 50 - 100 per kg - so anything from Baht 45 000 - 90 000 per year!

Costs are around Baht 500 per year per rai (fertilser ect ) but not including labour - which when it comes to tapping will be on a +/- basis of around 50% - so your net will be around half of the value of the rubber crop.

You wont get rich in this business - unless the plantations are big e.g. 500 - 1000 rai or more.

The figures start looking a lot better when it comes to cutting down the trees - the value of the timber adds significantly, but again - how long will you have to wait, 15 - 20 years from the time you start planting before the trees are harvested.

I am no expert in this game - my figures are calculated form other figures on various postings - but even if they were doubled, you still wouldn't be earning anymore than around Baht 15 - 17K per month from your 20rai.

Tim

buriramboy · October 12, 2006

trying to split the wheat from the chaff, i have been lead to believe i rai should generate 100 baht per day, hence 20 rai 2000 per day, @ 30 days per month 60k per month, on a 60/40 split , hence 36,000 baht a month for me and 24,000 month for the in-laws. do these figures sound correct, or totally outrageous, as my knowledge of rubber trees bordes on my knowledge of nuclear physics.

again true figures would be most appreciated.

buriramboy

timber · October 13, 2006

Sounds high to me. Over a year 30 days a month is not realistic, Have to let the trees replenish themselves. Now down south only harvest for 3 days then let the tree rest for a day. Some say they would look at a ratio of 5 to 1. The encyclopedia said 1:1. You will have to gauge yourself if you harvest 30 days you will downgrade the ability of the tree to produce rubber. You have a leaf fall in Febuary which will shut down harvesting for a period of time. If you don't have rainguards may have to shut down for rain and things just happen to shut you down. I think you should base your budgets on about 20 days per month. I think 70 baht per rai per day is a better figure per rai at present. My the price in the paper is listed at 67, but my in-laws are getting 55, depends on quality.

Maizefarmer · October 13, 2006

As you said - let loose near anything nuclear would be a disater for Buriram !!!

Neg - those figures are well to optimistic - further confirmation during the day that my figures are fairly representative. It is a subsistance crop on quantities of anything less than arteas that are less than 100's of rai and the only people who have becom rich from it are the old chinese tin mining families down south who run enourmous 1000 - 5000plus rai plantations.

Its a tough buisness - and hard work as well.

Tim

chang35baht · October 15, 2006

Hi guys. I also have 20 rai of rubber trees up here in Chiang Rai.

You guys are driving me crazy with all of your conflicting figures about yield and upkeep costs.

Firstly lets deal with fertiliser: In the Ist year of planting you will have to put fertiliser down 3-4 times @ approx. 200 grammes per tree then in the second year 3 times per year @ approx. 140 grammes per tree. After that I`m not sure as I`m in the UK at the moment and the book ( The Para Rubber Tree) that we use is back home with the wife, but I don`t think It`s more than twice a year. @ around 450-500 Baht per 50 kilo bag you can do your own figures depending on the size of your farms.

Why do you need to plough your land for the first 2 years? totally unnecassary, unless you are planning to put cover crops. You have the option. Cutting grass on my 20 rai can take me 4-5 days if I do it alone or 1-2 days if i want some help. 200 baht per day per helper bringing his own brushcutter. 4 times per year. Ok 100 rai is a bit more of a project. But on any of your figures the revenue isn`t going to be as bad as you guys seem to think.

James Collister and Maize farmers figures are so far apart. MF says that you can expect around 45kg per rai per monthx 20 rai x 9 months tappingx lets say 60baht per kilo. I make that to be around 486000 per year.

Whereas JC says in his area It`s around 1 kilo per tree per month. Which gives a totally diff. amount. It`s 70-80 per rai dependent upon your soil quality, so let`s say 75x20 rai x9months tapping x 60baht per kilo=810000baht per year.

If you invest in rain guards you may even get an extra month or two of tapping

Taking things from word of mouth can sometimes be misconstrued or even totally not understood. There is a mature rubber farm adjacent to mine. It is approx. 4 rai. They are processing around 29-30 mats per tapping@ around 1.2 kilos per mat. The trees are around 14 years old.

Some of the guys who have helped me from time to time, cutting grass etc, have worked in the south on rubber plantations. Some say tap every day, the others say every second day.

I don`t expect to get filthy rich from growing rubber trees but barring disasters( by the way my eggs are not all in one basket) I fully expect to get a decent revenue from them.

When you guys are tapping your own trees come back and tell me again about the yield and upkeep figures and I`ll believe you. Until then I will believe what I`ve seen with my own eyes, spent from mw own pocket and done with my own hands(and jop).

Cheers,

Chang35baht.

P.S. do you guys physically do any work on the farms? Maize farmer you seem to know a hel_l of a lot about this subject so I expect you do. With you having 4 year old trees and such.

A little test of your knowledge; how many branches are there coming out from the main trunk of your 4 year old trees?

timber · October 16, 2006

'chang35baht'

You wrote that there is 4 rai next door that is getting 29 - 30 mats per day. My in-laws are on the coast in the south. Good rain fall and soil seems ok. They don't get nearly that much on 7 rai. Is their anything special that your neigbhors do to their plantation? They are making good money for a rubber tree plantation. How often do they tap.? Down south they are tapping for three days then a day of rest.

Issangeorge · October 16, 2006

chang35baht, I sure hope your figures on the 4 rai next to you are correct, because I have 11 rai I want to plant with rubber, and if those figures are right it would sure give me more encouragement to plant. Could you please tell me where you got your book ‘The Para Rubber Tree’ thank you. I have been researching this topic for a year now and it so far I have not seen any figures that came from someone actually farming. MaizeFarmer I have followed all of your postings and find them very informative and of all the posters you seem to post about subjects you have done a lot of research on and seem to know a lot about so I tend to take your figures as being most accurate. However your figure of “100kg per acre per year or around 40 - 45kg per rai per year.” Seem to be very low. I have found a government site http://www.oae.go.th/statistic/yearbook/2003/indexe.html

that shows that in 2546 the average yield for rubber in Thailand was 286kgs per rai. This is the figure I will work with until someone can prove it wrong. Issangeorge

Maizefarmer · October 16, 2006

CHANG35BAHT

A hint of sarcasm in your reply - please read my contribution - I know little to nothing about growing rubber trees: If you read my posting properly - and they other contributions, 2 things will be clear and apparent:

1. I say I am not an expert on the subject.

2. the calculations I made were based on figures quoted by an earlier contributor.

But all that aside, for the record this is what I posted (based on what an earlier contributor wrote)

Very roughly: 100kg per acre per year or around 40 - 45kg per rai per year.

That will give you around 900kg per year for 20 rai

Price wise - well, hard to say: recent prices have moved from Baht 50 - 100 per kg - so anything from Baht 45 000 - 90 000 per year!

Somewhat different to what you say I said, er Chang35Baht.

Why do you say I seem "to know a hel_l of a lot about the subject"

Tim

Edited October 16, 2006 by Maizefarmer

Maizefarmer · October 16, 2006

The problem with using the inter-net for figures is that the figures are hopelessly different for every document you read – and we land up going round in circles.

The other half has just phoned a man who knows – well, a man you has access to KK Uni figures for 2005, and this is what he said.

A survey that covered Para-rubber production for 83% of Thai farms in 205 conducted by KK Uni came up with the following figures:

1) On average those plantations were tapped 187 days of the year (i.e. roughly just over every 2nd day)

2) On average those plantations produced 233 kg per rai for 2005

Now take what ever figure you wish for the price of a kg (anything between Baht 50 – 65 would be quite reasonable) and do the calcs.

At Baht 60 you are going to get just under Baht 14 000 p/year per/rai – and that is before ANY expenses (e.g. labour, fertiliser and processing costs).

I am going to take a guess and say if a farmer netts 2/3 of that he is doing fine – lets be optimistic and say Baht 12 000 p/annum p/rai.

At 20 rai that is Baht 240 000 net from a turn over of Baht 280 000 gross

The figures I gave in my earlier posting were not my own, they were based on another contributors figures– they were based/adjusted for a 20 rai plot, and other than for a change in over all scale of economies for size (i.e. as plantation size increases costs decrease – as a rule), the figures are not much different.

I should add that the average size of plantations from which the Uni figures I quote came from, was 8 rai

According to Chang35Baht’s figures a 20 rai plantation is producing 177kg per tapping.

That means 177kg x 187days p/y = 33099kg p/year for 20rai

That plantation is 14 years old – so yes, it’s a mature plantation (I don’t have an average age for the figures of the trees on the plantations that I was given – forgot to ask).

One can convert the above to income by multiplying the kg figure by whatever price the wish to use.

It is I am told, for any age of plantation an extremely high production figure – 33 tons per year from 20 rai is over 1 ton p/year p/rai!

................now, someone please tell me where I have gone wrong.

Chang35Baht - I have not only corrected your mis-quote of what I was supposed to have said, I actualy go back to what I did really say, and from what I can establish - both from the internet and from a person who has access to rather recent stats, although your figures may be accuarte for that one plantation, they are not representative for Thailand (and although I am sure if I recall you said it, they are certianly not Pararubber figures - 1 ton plus per year for a 1rai Para-Rubber plantation is not possible from what I have been told)

Please do not mis-quote in future, but otherwise, I invite all who are at all interested in getting to the bottom of what is versus what is not achieveable, to please by all means critisize and comment on these figures.

Tim

Edited October 16, 2006 by Maizefarmer

Issangeorge · October 16, 2006

Maizefarmer, 233 kgs/rai per year isnot that far off the 286 kgs/rai/year I got off what I believe to be a government site, and that was for 2003 which may have been a better year, if memorry serves me the early part of 2005 was very dry and may have affected the rubber yield. For planning one can probably take the 233 as a low figure and the 286 as the high. If using these figures your business plan works out, then if chang35baht's figures are at all close the business will be very profitable indead. Isangeorge

Maizefarmer · October 16, 2006

ISSAANGEORGE - yes, I see where you are coming from. We can argue about exact figures, especialy on the net where different articles quote different figures - which may well be correct, but are of little use to us unless the criteria under which those figures were complied.

In any event, as you rightly note (and I am pleased you have found) the whole idea is get a feel for what is viable and what is not - and anything around 200 - 250kg is in my opinion a realistic yield for Para Rubber (the differance been in the type of tree and its age - amongst other factors).

Chang35Baht's figure are far to optimistic and everyone I have quoted them to question their accuracy. What hacked me off is that he mis-quoted me and then made out I didnt know what I was talking about - and then went on to ask us all a question as if, if we couldnt answer that then really we were all out our depth! Sorry Chang35Baht - I didnt take that to well, but granted I may well have mis-read the tone in which what you wrote came across.

A realistic figure is 200- 250kg per rai per/year. At Baht 60 per year thats Baht 15 000 per year.

Thats around Baht 1200 p/month p/rai!!.

From 100 rai you are going to earn Baht 120 000 p/month. Take off 1/3 for expenses and you are left with Baht 80 000 per/month.

...... mmm perhaps I would be happy with 200 - 300 rai - but I'll never be rich.

Get it up to 500rai and then it starts to look like something worth waiting 5 - 7 years to start earning an income from, and making a career out of.

But anything less than 200 rai - sorry, but I would not be willing to wait 5-7 years to start getting anything out of it. The figures do not look attractive untill you start looking at plantation sizes of at least 100 -150rai. The plantations sizes members have been considering are all around 10 - 20rai. As an only source of income its a no brainer, as "beer money" - fine, go for it - but it will be just that i.e. "beer money"

I'd hate one of the members to make a committement to buy land and invest in such a project on the basis of a set of figures published here on the forum from which they understood they would realise x income from, and then find out that they are only going to get a quater or a half of x.

Guys, you need to look very carefully at rubber income - take 250kg as an accurate top yield for a rubber plantation to earn per year per rai. Multiply that by Baht60 per kg (for a rough current figure) and take off about 1/3 - that will give you a realistic income on annual basis for your invetsment and work - and remember, you won't start to get that return for at leats the next 5 years, but more typically the next 7 - 10 years.

Now if you are happy with that - go for it, if not, well - there are other things that can be done with land agriculture wise that will start generating more than rubber will per rai and a lot lot quicker.

Again - if my figures are wrong - someone please come back and correct me.

If there is any light on the horizon its these 2 things:

- smoked Grade 3 (which constitutes a large portion of Thai rubber production) is going up

steadily in farm agte price terms, and by 2010 is reackoned to rise to around Baht80 p/kg if not

more.

- rubber growing techniques are constantly improving as are the hybrid types used (this latter

point though is of not much use if you are planting now, and if you wait for a few years for those

hybrids to filter down to commercial growers - well you are adding even more time onto the

waiting period)

Tim

Edited October 16, 2006 by Maizefarmer

Tim207 · October 16, 2006

I read Chang's post the same way you did. Whether he meant it as insulting or not, that is how it came off.

Nice to get a clearer picture of the economics of rubber that seems to be documented. My wife wanted to buy some land with rubber trees a few years ago but I said no, partly because I didn't know the economics of it. The other part was that she wanted to put a hose in the middle of the trees and I have no intention of living with the smell of drying rubber. I don't know the age of the trees but they needed to sell to cover a loan coming due. The price was only 10,000 per rai so maybe I should have done it anyway.

chownah · October 17, 2006

MaizeFarmer,

Perhaps you are out of touch with the level of incomes here in Thailand. For most Thai people making 80,000 baht per month IS being rich....###### rich....rich way beyond what they would ever expect to achieve in their lives. For the average Thai just OWNING 100 Rai of productive farm land would make them rich regardless of the income they derived from it.

In Thailand YOU ARE RICH. Have you forgotten?

Chownah

RamdomChances · October 17, 2006

^ Just a word to everyone. I dont really want to see this thread degenerate into a "how much money do you need to live in Thailand" thread, theres loads of them already on the forum if you want to do asearch. I'll let chownah's stand and and a rebutal by MF if he feels like. Any others off topic I'll just delete...so don't moan if they are missing

RC

Edited October 17, 2006 by RamdomChances

chownah · October 17, 2006

RandomChances,

Good call. I agree completely.

Chownah

sooboofarang · October 17, 2006

hi there I am in bankruad

about 80klm;s from burriram

your trees will take about 7 years before you could harvest

you can look the rubber prices on the local TV

if you go to Mr dang bar at bankruad I am sure there are people there who know

the german has about the same as you

and people next to me have rubber tress

I do know you have to get up at 3am in the morning to start harvest the rubber

and good money more then rice

lol

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