Narrow Arrivals Area?

[think_too_mut]

What really shocked me was how packed the arrivals area was. To walk 50m to an ATM, I had to go out and approach it from another door.

Yesterday, on arrival to Narita, I notoiced that their arrival area is not wider than Suvarnabhumi's. The time was peak of the peak - 7am. Narita is closed until 6:30 am and then a barrage of aircrafts land, probably 40-50 in 30 minutes.

Probably, the Suvarnabhumi's designers did not make such a big mistake. At least, they may had followed guidelines and calculations for busy places like NRT ( has 200,000 aircraft movements per year, BKK Don Muang had 160K). Also, NRT has 8 hours a day less to handle the traffic (it's closed overnight).

So, why it is not packed as Suvarnabhumi arrival area? Some of the reasons might be:

- Everyone coming to NRT has to have and show passport

- Train/Bus are almost 30US$ one way

- Taxi is 300-400US$ one way

- People's time have more value in Japan. Nobody goes to NRT to meet/see off anyone. It all hapens at bus/train terminal in the city.

Here is the pic:

[Soju]

Also not a room full of touts at Narita, nor a slew of booths set haphazard across the arival area. How many different exits are there at Narita? I recall only two, the same as Suvarnabhumi (international exits), but some airports with a long and narrow arrival area have 4, 5, or 6 different exits to alleviate crowding.

[think_too_mut]

Also not a room full of touts at Narita, nor a slew of booths set haphazard across the arival area. How many different exits are there at Narita? I recall only two, the same as Suvarnabhumi (international exits), but some airports with a long and narrow arrival area have 4, 5, or 6 different exits to alleviate crowding.

There are booths at NRT arrival, all along the way (see the pic).

"Exits"? You mean from the building? There could be 20 at NRT Terminal 1 only, my bus left from exit 12 and there were more after, for other destinations buses.

As for the touts: I can not imagine under what circumstances Japanese would do touting.

Edit: forgot to attach the pic.

Edited October 13, 2006 by think_too_mut

[Krub]

What really shocked me was how packed the arrivals area was. To walk 50m to an ATM, I had to go out and approach it from another door.

Yesterday, on arrival to Narita, I notoiced that their arrival area is not wider than Suvarnabhumi's. The time was peak of the peak - 7am. Narita is closed until 6:30 am and then a barrage of aircrafts land, probably 40-50 in 30 minutes.

Probably, the Suvarnabhumi's designers did not make such a big mistake. At least, they may had followed guidelines and calculations for busy places like NRT ( has 200,000 aircraft movements per year, BKK Don Muang had 160K). Also, NRT has 8 hours a day less to handle the traffic (it's closed overnight).

So, why it is not packed as Suvarnabhumi arrival area? Some of the reasons might be:

- Everyone coming to NRT has to have and show passport

- Train/Bus are almost 30US$ one way

- Taxi is 300-400US$ one way

- People's time have more value in Japan. Nobody goes to NRT to meet/see off anyone. It all hapens at bus/train terminal in the city.

Here is the pic:

In BKK there is an ATM rght after immigration in the baggage hall.

I agree that the arrival hall after customs is very crowded.

WHat makes things worse isthe lack of clear signs, even the airport hotel is not on any board that i have looked at !

[Soju]

There are booths at NRT arrival, all along the way (see the pic).

"Exits"? You mean from the building? There could be 20 at NRT Terminal 1 only, my bus left from exit 12 and there were more after, for other destinations buses.

As for the touts: I can not imagine under what circumstances Japanese would do touting.

Edit: forgot to attach the pic.

But the booths at Narita are all off to the side in a row, correct? Whereas at Suvarnabhumi they're not neatly arranged as such, meaning people are everywhere and it's difficult to navigate.

By exits I meant customs exits into the arrival area. As I recall they have an A and B (or 1 and 2?)arrival area with cameras and TV monitors to show the arriving passengers as they exit customs. In Korea at Incheon airport, the arrival area is also long and somewhat narrow, but there's always plenty of space despite much cheaper costs for people to come to the airport to greet arriving passengers. I always see lots of families there waiting for someone, but with a large number of customs exits, there's never too many people at one single exit.

There's no one single factor creating the situation at Suvarnabhumi, so there's no single solution to the problem. A start would be banning the touts, forcing family/friends of arriving passengers to wait someplace other than the arrival area, adding more customs exits, and re-arranging the booths. I think as you said, people don't come to Narita to greet passengers or see them off due to the high cost. An unpopular, but likely effective solution at Suvarnabhumi would be to add a hefty surcharge to taxis, parking, or whatever other means the visitors are coming to the airport.

[think_too_mut]

By exits I meant customs exits into the arrival area. As I recall they have an A and B (or 1 and 2?)arrival area with cameras and TV monitors to show the arriving passengers as they exit customs.

Now I inderstand. Sorry, don't remember about exits at NRT, should be 2 at terminal 1.

The point I am trying to make with this thread : appears there is no "Fundamental Design Flaw" as the dimensions of the arrival area were described in one of the threads a week earlier. At the time I agreed with that but after comparing it to NRT changed my mind.

Just, for some reason, too many people who are not meant to be in the arrivals area are simply there and that has to be controlled somehow.

Maybe - only people with departure tax paid - easier if included in the ticket price and presenting a ticket for the day would gain admittance past certain point?

Certainly, better arrangement of the booths would help too.

[The Coder]

Well, Japanese people are the model for efficiency and people travelling there will be the most like minded. Processes are implemented in Japan that just wouldn't work in other countries. In Thailand you can't even get people to choose what side of the sidewak they want to walk on. If (just speculation) they used a Japanese model as the standard for a Thai airport then I would say this is a Fundamental Design Flaw. It's no different than cookie cutter housing they make in Bangkok; it has no allowances for Thai living like open airflow, shoes outside, or air drying laundry. Ignoring the uniqueness of the people being served invariably results in a collision course resulting in unanticipated negative outcomes even though it worked somewhere else.

But also recall the new airport is supposed to handle far greater capacity than the old one. If it can't even handle Don Muang's load it effectively then it has even more serious problems ahead as it attempts to grow. It is also odd to me the newest major airport in the world has no provisions for the A380.

[Krub]

Well, Japanese people are the model for efficiency and people travelling there will be the most like minded. Processes are implemented in Japan that just wouldn't work in other countries. In Thailand you can't even get people to choose what side of the sidewak they want to walk on. If (just speculation) they used a Japanese model as the standard for a Thai airport then I would say this is a Fundamental Design Flaw. It's no different than cookie cutter housing they make in Bangkok; it has no allowances for Thai living like open airflow, shoes outside, or air drying laundry. Ignoring the uniqueness of the people being served invariably results in a collision course resulting in unanticipated negative outcomes even though it worked somewhere else.

But also recall the new airport is supposed to handle far greater capacity than the old one. If it can't even handle Don Muang's load it effectively then it has even more serious problems ahead as it attempts to grow. It is also odd to me the newest major airport in the world has no provisions for the A380.

It has 4 gates for the A 380

[ovenman]

Also, I'll guarantee that Narita Airport doesn't have nearly the same amount of staff wandering about/working at the airport as does Suvarnabhumi.

[think_too_mut]

Well, Japanese people are the model for efficiency and people travelling there will be the most like minded. Processes are implemented in Japan that just wouldn't work in other countries.

How did then Toyota, Nissan, Hitachi, Fujitsu and thousands of other Japanese companies end up plugging their technologies and processes into Thailand?

Many high rise buildings were built Japanese way (I know of 2 identical to Emporium in Tokyo).

[bubba]

It has 4 gates for the A 380

And I shall be very happy indeed if I never, ever have to arrive on an A380. Imagine getting off the plane and then arriving at immigration and baggage claim with 500 - 600 fellow passengers.

I really don't understand all the hype with the A380. I dread the day of having to fly on them and I would go out of my way to take a flight that is NOT an A380. Thankfully, Thai won't have them until at least 2011.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/...afx3088317.html

[bubba]

Ooops...this just in from Bangkok Post:

The new Suvarnabhumi airport was built to accommodate the huge planes, which never have carried a paying passenger. Thai Airways International was to buy several, but now looks unlikely to take delivery.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=113249

Maybe we are in luck and Thai will never fly A380s!

[TokyoT]

Narita: No touts, two terminals, much lower level of people there to meet arriving passengers, vendor booths all accounted for in the design and out of the general traffic flow, taxi/bus/train service laid out to keep traffic flowing out of the arrival area.

The big one on this list is the lower level of people that are actually hanging around to meet/great arrivals and no touts.

As one earlier poster mentioned you can not design a major structure like this and not take into consideration the local issues – obviously the designers/planners of this airport did not do that.

[think_too_mut]

As one earlier poster mentioned you can not design a major structure like this and not take into consideration the local issues – obviously the designers/planners of this airport did not do that.

That may go as far as having squat toilets (even on the Shinkansen bullet train there are "Japanese style" toilets), praying places ...but to provide a high quality space for loitering - nobody does that.

If they did, the airport at Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) would have airconditioned hangars around it for no-reason permanent camping of whole families, hanging around the building during the day and sleeping in makeshifts at night.

Edited October 14, 2006 by think_too_mut

[think_too_mut]

I really don't understand all the hype with the A380. I dread the day of having to fly on them and I would go out of my way to take a flight that is NOT an A380.

That could be closer than it looks. Various articles in respected press (The Economist included) mention that EU politicians may kill off the project and possibly the whole Airbus company.

It's losing sales at the pace that it already requires extra 150 A-380s orders to break even (from 250 originally planned).

A-350 has to be redesigned from scratch and by then Boeing's Dreamliner would have captured the market.

Fuel inefficient A-340 is dying, may be discontinued in a year anyway. They sold only 15 of them over last year.

[TokyoT]

That may go as far as having squat toilets (even on the Shinkansen bullet train there are "Japanese style" toilets), praying places ...but to provide a high quality space for loitering - nobody does that.

If they did, the airport at Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) would have airconditioned hangars around it for no-reason permanent camping of whole families, hanging around the building during the day and sleeping in makeshifts at night.

Loitering?

Maybe during the early days when people with nothing better to do made trips out to the airport to just take a look around.

But now people are there for a purpose – to either meet someone who is arriving on a flight or touts attempting to sell overpriced taxi rides and calling them limo rides.

I would have no problem with them pushing the touts down stairs, but they should have know from DM that there would be a fair amount of people in the arrival area to greet people coming in on flights. No good reason to not include this kind of traffic in the design.

They should not be surprised by the number of people in this area – take a look at the number of people at DM.

And some of this volume could be accounted for in cultural terms. It is pretty typical for my wife’s family to send pretty much every available family member along to the airport to see off Ma or Pa, or to meet them at the airport when they are coming in.

I have never been to Papua New Guinea so I cannot really comment on what would make sense for them. If the families are indeed there for no good reason than sure no reason to make accommodations for their presence. On the other hand if they are there to meet incoming travelers or to see off outbound passengers than I do think the volume of people there should be taken into consideration in they happen to design a new airport.

It is not necessary to air-condition said area. There are quite a few airports in tropical/ semi-tropical climates where major portions of the airport are open air/ but under cover. Allowing the airport to accommodate larger volumes without the cost associated with air-conditioning.

They could very easily have made the design such that the exit from the customs area was also the exit from the air-conditioned area of the airport; but still under cover from the sun/rain. Making it quite cost effective to make that area as large as they needed at minimal cost.

[Shimokitazawa]

So, why it is not packed as Suvarnabhumi arrival area? Some of the reasons might be:

- Everyone coming to NRT has to have and show passport

- Train/Bus are almost 30US$ one way

- Taxi is 300-400US$ one way

- People's time have more value in Japan. Nobody goes to NRT to meet/see off anyone. It all hapens at bus/train terminal in the city.

Haven't been to Suvarnabhumi yet, but one thing that struck me from a picture I saw of the arrivals area (can't find it anymore but I think I saw it in this forum) is that in contrast to NRT there was no form of crowd control at the entrance, just some yellow lines on the floor. At NRT there are ropes set up which funnel people coming out of arrivals to either the left or right, which helps break up the crush (which there isn't usually much of anyway). On the other hand I find the check-in area at Narita could be a lot better designed, the way it is now the queues of people waiting to get past the pre-checkin security (!) collide with the people milling round looking for their check-in counter zone.

For the record the cheapest one-way train fare from the centre of Tokyo to NRT is 1000 Yen (€7 / US$8.50), although that's on the "normal" train (Keisei Line).