Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[Aj Mick]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

Exactly.

The family want closure, and they have put their faith in those they know they can trust.

Unfortunately they have chosen to believe a pack of lies from an outfit that is regarded as the most corrupt of all official bodies in the Thailand. Even the hugely patriotic and nationalistic local hoi polloi have little or no real respect for them, though they do kowtow and obligingly pay fines for riding their motorcycles sans helmet or driving licence.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Aj Mick

[evadgib]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

Factually incorrect. Interested parties had representatives in court that were able to translate word for word accurately and efficiently in real time and in written transcripts afterwards to the very standard you imply was not available.

[Aj Mick]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

Factually incorrect. Interested parties had representatives in court that were able to translate word for word accurately and efficiently in real time and in written transcripts afterwards to the very standard you imply was not available.

Have you ever tried to translate Thai to English word for word? You will come up with a bunch of gobbledy gook.

What the family have been fed, and want to believe comes from official sources toeing the party line.

[samuibeachcomber]

If this verdict is allowed to pass by the UK embassy in Bangkok, their hands will be just as bloody as the real culprits in this crime.

What do you suggest they do?

how about "no comment"

[Nigeone]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

Yes I'm inclined to agree with this..All the Thais I've spoken too agree that this verdict is not correct and they all have the quietly spoken opinion !! that the mafia on Koh Tao is responsible. Remember 99.3% of Thais are happy with the junta !! There is a real real fear of speaking out more so than ever...And I do also know that they are fiercely patriotic so if it came down to it maybe they wouldn't be so happy to speak against there country men to outsiders..

[DKUNPUTAF713]

After reading Andy Hall's FB and the information provided by the Burmese regarding the guitar player

and the alleged murdered man wearing the No. 9 shirt and other information provided,

I do believe the B2 will be found innocent or acquitted and the real perpetrators arrested and convicted.

Oh, yes the the PM, Deputy PM, and the current and prior top RTP and others will have to answer as well!!

Andy, my deepest thanks for the work that your team has done under such trying circumstances!

[T_Dog]

Sondhi knows the system in the islands as well as anyone. Hit the gear icon to turn on English subtitles. I wish the judges could have been as forthright as this fellow.

https://youtu.be/peaD7E6cUso

Edited December 26, 2015 by T_Dog

[zaphod reborn]

The flaws include lack of chain of custody in evidence

If the DNA chain of custody is flawed, the DNA is unreliable. The criminal court brushed this aside, saying each department handling the evidence had its own chain of custody procedure. As the conviction was based primarily on the DNA (the other basis being David's mobile phone was with one of the defendants), doubt as to the guilt of the defendants was established, rendering the verdict reversible. Hopefully the appellate and/or Supreme Court will see through the trial court's failure to properly rule on this issue.

[TheCruncher]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

Have you ever considered for one minute other than what appears as your own limited views that some of the comments against police, business people, residents, and to a certain point the judges might be well placed. As for the Miller family I agree what they shouldn't be brought into it, even though I found their comments to be contrived and argueable.

Have you ever considered that what you just wrote applies to you as well, as does it to those hardcore armchair detectives on this forum, the only significant difference is that Happy Joe doesn't insult other members, the RTP or the victims family to make his point

[mojorison]

After reading Andy Hall's FB and the information provided by the Burmese regarding the guitar player

and the alleged murdered man wearing the No. 9 shirt and other information provided,

I do believe the B2 will be found innocent or acquitted and the real perpetrators arrested and convicted.

Oh, yes the the PM, Deputy PM, and the current and prior top RTP and others will have to answer as well!!

Andy, my deepest thanks for the work that your team has done under such trying circumstances!

Others of greater significance will also be held accountable. Ultimately. IMHO

[smedly]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

In the west a jury listen to what is presented then decide weighing up the "allowed" and presented evidence from the prosecution and any arguments presented by the defence

The defence are there to counter and argue against the case presented by the prosecution, they have various ways to do this, calling on expert witnesses - exposing procedural anomolies - presenting their own evidence and witness statements to counter claims by prosecutiuon and create doubt

The judge is there to facilitate the procedings and make sure all procedures and protocols have been strictly followed by both the prosecution presenting their case - police while investigating and gathering evidence - - defence with their evidence and arguments.

The Judge has a duty and obligation to intervene and disqualify presented evidence and statements that have broken lawful procedure or recognised legal protocols, these may also be brought to his/her attention by either legal council and referenced to the relevent law or statute that has been breached

[Bluespunk]

@TheCruncher

You said

Have you ever considered that what you just wrote applies to you as well, as does it to those hardcore armchair detectives on this forum, the only significant difference is that Happy Joe doesn't insult other members, the RTP or the victims family to make his point

Me

Calling those with differing views "the dregs of society" is fairly insulting.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Bluespunk

[TheCruncher]

@TheCruncher

You said

Have you ever considered that what you just wrote applies to you as well, as does it to those hardcore armchair detectives on this forum, the only significant difference is that Happy Joe doesn't insult other members, the RTP or the victims family to make his point

Me

Calling those with differing views "the dregs of society" is fairly insulting.

I had to look up the word, but to be honest I couldn't find a better description, for people who insult a grieving family with claims that they are in it for the money.

[Prbkk]

We are told the evidence is compelling and overwhelming. If that is the case there has been something missing in the media coverage. What we HAVE had is an investigation of staggering ineptitude, the presentation of junk science, the naming of a number is suspects ( even in the absence of any evidence implicating them) subsequently withdrawn, the loss of crucial material, police and politicians offering opinions as to guilt prior to any proceedings, a failure to hear world recognised experts, etc etc etc

The whole thing is tragic and made all the more so by the stumbling buffoonery of the officials in charge.

[Bluespunk]

@TheCruncher

You said

I had to look up the word, but to be honest I couldn't find a better description, for people who insult a grieving family with claims that they are in it for the money.

Me

Maybe those views are ill informed and regrettable. I don't share them.

However you destroy the argument, you don't resort to abusive comments.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Bluespunk

[IslandLover]

He s brother seemed very convinsed.

Hello Janne. How's the Maya Beach Club doing nowadays?

[IslandLover]

Briggsy, on 26 Dec 2015 - 02:13, said:

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

I have seen a comment by someone (who attended every day of the court hearings) who overheard one of the RTP (who testified for the prosecution) sucking up to the Millers in court and telling them that they could trust him and that the right people were on trial. Says it all really.

Edited December 26, 2015 by IslandLover

[StealthEnergiser]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

I have seen a comment by someone who attended every day of the court hearings who overheard one of the RTP, who testified for the prosecution, charming the Millers and telling them that they could trust him and that the right people were on trial. Says it all really.

And when you read tweets like this the media aren't buying it. Follow

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

Judges claim that DNA tests met international standards is extraordinary. DNA documentation was appalling - wrong date grounds for suspicion

[IslandLover]

Aj Mick, on 26 Dec 2015 - 04:21, said:

AleG, on 26 Dec 2015 - 02:15, said:

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

1. Why your interest in this case?

2. What is your connection to Koh Tao, and those involved in the case?

Give it a rest. You know you're never going to get an answer

[TheCruncher]

@TheCruncher

You said

Have you ever considered that what you just wrote applies to you as well, as does it to those hardcore armchair detectives on this forum, the only significant difference is that Happy Joe doesn't insult other members, the RTP or the victims family to make his point

Me

Calling those with differing views "the dregs of society" is fairly insulting.

I had to look up the word, but to be honest I couldn't find a better description, for people who insult a grieving family with claims that they are in it for the money.

While your looking up words try this one " Troll "

Is that the best you can come up with?

TROLL

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,^[1]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,^[3] often for their own amusement.

And what you call this. Or are you gonna deny that it was posted by one of the members you support in his views?

This Michael Millar fella is probably looking forward to the appeals so he can have another free holiday and again compliment the locals on how well they have treated him.

He comes across as someone enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.

[TheCruncher]

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

1. Why your interest in this case?

2. What is your connection to Koh Tao, and those involved in the case?

1. Why your interest in this case?

2. What is your connection to Koh Tao, and those involved in the case?

[smedly]

@TheCruncher

You said

Have you ever considered that what you just wrote applies to you as well, as does it to those hardcore armchair detectives on this forum, the only significant difference is that Happy Joe doesn't insult other members, the RTP or the victims family to make his point

Me

Calling those with differing views "the dregs of society" is fairly insulting.

I had to look up the word, but to be honest I couldn't find a better description, for people who insult a grieving family with claims that they are in it for the money.

While your looking up words try this one " Troll "

Is that the best you can come up with?

TROLL

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,^[1]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,^[3] often for their own amusement.

And what you call this. Or are you gonna deny that it was posted by one of the members you support in his views?

This Michael Millar fella is probably looking forward to the appeals so he can have another free holiday and again compliment the locals on how well they have treated him.

He comes across as someone enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.

sorry but insulting the Millar family is quite disgraceful no matter what they said, they believe in what they have been told which is exactly the same as we have been told - they know nothing more, my advise to them would be to have a long chat with a legal expert in the UK who can actually explain some of the flaws in this case and how the evidence is far from convincing especially since it doesn't exist anymore and there is nothing to prove that it ever existed - at least not in Thailand

[evadgib]

'Boing!'...

Time to Close?

Edited December 26, 2015 by evadgib

[TheCruncher]

sorry but insulting the Millar family is quite disgraceful no matter what they said, they believe in what they have been told which is exactly the same as we have been told - they know nothing more, my advise to them would be to have a long chat with a legal expert in the UK who can actually explain some of the flaws in this case and how the evidence is far from convincing especially since it doesn't exist anymore and there is nothing to prove that it ever existed - at least not in Thailand

Why do you think that what they have been told is exactly the same as you have been told.

Were you also privately informed by the UK investigators who observed the investigation in Thailand?

Edited December 26, 2015 by TheCruncher

[smedly]

sorry but insulting the Millar family is quite disgraceful no matter what they said, they believe in what they have been told which is exactly the same as we have been told - they know nothing more, my advise to them would be to have a long chat with a legal expert in the UK who can actually explain some of the flaws in this case and how the evidence is far from convincing especially since it doesn't exist anymore and there is nothing to prove that it ever existed - at least not in Thailand

Why do you think that what they have been told is exactly the same as you have been told.

Were you also privately informed by the UK investigators who observed the investigation in Thailand?

there is very simple answer to this

1. If police in Thailand had told them something that convinced them then it would have been presented in court and we would all know about it, I would have believed the DNA evidence if they could have backed it up, as it stands they couldn't and that rings a very large alarm bell for me, the Millar family have seemingly accepted this evidence at face value - I have not - will not until they can produce it, a written report saying we got a match without anything else to support it doesn't work for me and it wouldn't work in any western courtroom either.

2. The UK police would not have told them anything above what was officially released - next to nothing, I am 100% sure of that

3. same applies to any official government representation

What we have not heard yet (and I stress that nobody has), is the official detailed autopsy reports from the UK, that should make for some interesting reading

Edited December 26, 2015 by smedly

[Islandlife]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

Because he wants to believe a pack of lies and has found closure from them.

Must so hard trying to wrangle when want to believe they innocent but they not. Even the brother believes who bee monitoring everything closely.

[TheCruncher]

sorry but insulting the Millar family is quite disgraceful no matter what they said, they believe in what they have been told which is exactly the same as we have been told - they know nothing more, my advise to them would be to have a long chat with a legal expert in the UK who can actually explain some of the flaws in this case and how the evidence is far from convincing especially since it doesn't exist anymore and there is nothing to prove that it ever existed - at least not in Thailand

Why do you think that what they have been told is exactly the same as you have been told.

Were you also privately informed by the UK investigators who observed the investigation in Thailand?

there is very simple answer to this

1. If police in Thailand had told them something that convinced them then it would have been presented in court and we would all know about it, I would have believed the DNA evidence if they could have backed it up, as it stands they couldn't and that rings a very large alarm bell for me, the Millar family have seemingly accepted this evidence at face value - I have not - will not until they can produce it, a written report saying we got a match without anything else to support it doesn't work for me and it wouldn't work in any western courtroom either.

2. The UK police would not have told them anything above what was officially released - next to nothing, I am 100% sure of that

3. same applies to any official government representation

What we have not heard yet (and I stress that nobody has), is the official detailed autopsy reports from the UK, that should make for some interesting reading

What the UK police will have told them is what will be in the official investigation report.

Do you believe that the media has access to the investigation report, or only print what is fed to them?

If you think that all what is printed in the media is all what is known, then I wonder why a defense team spend so much time going through the court files, when they simply could buy a newspaper and subscribe to facebook.

[StealthEnergiser]

For all u non believers, watch bbc and see the brother and family make a statement, nothing but praise for the justice system, they have been there for many months, visiting the ocurts, not you keyboard warriors that want to knock Thailand at every opportunity. the burmese guys had top lawyers paid for by an activist group, how pathetic, activisits are idiots.

here we go, the troll is back !

are you saying family did not say they are happy with verdict or did not spend months with police both Thai and British or Burmese did not have top lawyers dont just knock this report say where its wrong

You forgot a very important aspect...........the verdict was bought and paid for long before the end of the trial so no matter what the family believed or how many "top lawyers" there were in attendance the guilty verdict was the "face saving", bought and paid for outcome.

When you approach this from two different perspectives you can see why a great majority of the posters here support the innocence of the B2, and yet just a few others support the guilty verdict, let me explain...........

Those who believe that the B2 are innocent are judging this on how such a case would be presented in a first-world country with a justice system which although not perfect, has, by and large, stood the test of time. They, like me, believe that the fact that the crime scene was contaminated, that the police collecting the evidence were not trained to do so, that crucial evidence has gone missing, that important CCTV footage was never viewed, that the supposed murder weapon was shown as two different hoes, that the wounds in David's head did not match the murder weapon...............and so much more.

All of the above and other aspects of the case would have ensured that in a first-world country the case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Now consider the other perspective; the supporters of the guilty verdict are looking at it from their viewpoint, accepting that Thailand is a Third World country and is known for its corruption, human trafficking and other human rights violations, that the BIB have been proven to be corrupt time and time again as have many people in power, that money can buy absolutely ANYTHING (lives included), that saving face is more important than anything else............and so on, so you get the picture.

So they either accept the verdict because of the above, or because they refuse to believe that any of the points in the last paragraph actually do exist. In both cases I believe they are morally bankrupt.

And you can judge the intelligence level of one of them who posted something along the lines of, "wow, they are innocent because the date/time was incorrect" in a sarcastic remark relating to the huge discrepancies in DNA testing procedures, when that discrepancy alone would have ensured that evidence was considered "null and void" in any legal system apart from one in which the verdict was bought beforehand.

Your right about the intelligence level of some posters and it doesn't look like they will ever learn.

Edited December 26, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[smedly]

Honestly guys, this case presented by the Thai police for me goes little further than finger pointing, it's like standing up in court pointing at someone and saying - they did it, case closed.......... guilty

The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that

I wish they had been able to back it up because I'd be first in line cheering as the guilty were hanged and it would have made me very happy indeed.

Whether B2 are guilty or not I just cannot sit comfortably with this verdict based on what was presented by the police, it just doesn't sit well with me and for that I am sorry

[smedly]

sorry but insulting the Millar family is quite disgraceful no matter what they said, they believe in what they have been told which is exactly the same as we have been told - they know nothing more, my advise to them would be to have a long chat with a legal expert in the UK who can actually explain some of the flaws in this case and how the evidence is far from convincing especially since it doesn't exist anymore and there is nothing to prove that it ever existed - at least not in Thailand

Why do you think that what they have been told is exactly the same as you have been told.

Were you also privately informed by the UK investigators who observed the investigation in Thailand?

there is very simple answer to this

1. If police in Thailand had told them something that convinced them then it would have been presented in court and we would all know about it, I would have believed the DNA evidence if they could have backed it up, as it stands they couldn't and that rings a very large alarm bell for me, the Millar family have seemingly accepted this evidence at face value - I have not - will not until they can produce it, a written report saying we got a match without anything else to support it doesn't work for me and it wouldn't work in any western courtroom either.

2. The UK police would not have told them anything above what was officially released - next to nothing, I am 100% sure of that

3. same applies to any official government representation

What we have not heard yet (and I stress that nobody has), is the official detailed autopsy reports from the UK, that should make for some interesting reading

What the UK police will have told them is what will be in the official investigation report.

Do you believe that the media has access to the investigation report, or only print what is fed to them?

If you think that all what is printed in the media is all what is known, then I wonder why a defense team spend so much time going through the court files, when they simply could buy a newspaper and subscribe to facebook.

sorry but you have completely lost me, I said what I said, it is black and white easy reading