Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[JLCrab]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

[DiscoDan]

At the end of the day. There is no explaining how David's phone came to be in Zaw possession. Or why they concealed it knowing what was happening at the time. Or why Muang Muang and Zaw went back to the vicinity in the early hours to look for their belongings. Or why they were washing themselves in the sea in the early hours of the morning. My only question is "why did they let Muang Muang go? " and I do think there are others involved.

I am pretty sure he was there at the beginning of the attack remember he is also seen wearing WP shirt later, there excuse was he wanted it as he was cold, but not cold enough for the B2 to go for a swim !

The reason they couldn't arrest him as none of his DNA was found unlike the B2

[Dogmatix]

Maybe a good moment to view Sondhi Limtrakool's Youtube clip on the case with English subtitles from December 2014.

[Dogmatix]

When will the inquest on Hannah's death be held in Norwich and the proceedings be made public. There is still a loose end to be tied up from the Home Office pathologist's report that was released to the defence by the Norwich coroner. That is the finding that there was no evidence that Hannah was sexually assaulted. It is hard to understand how Thai police could have found the two convicted men's semen in her body, if she was not sexually assaulted. Does that imply that she had consensual sex with both, who then brutally murdered her?

[DiscoDan]

If you want to know if there is some info that the public don't know about why don't you all go and ask Andy Hall ? then we can clear this up once and for all.

[xylophone]

Honestly guys, this case presented by the Thai police for me goes little further than finger pointing, it's like standing up in court pointing at someone and saying - they did it, case closed.......... guilty

The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that

I wish they had been able to back it up because I'd be first in line cheering as the guilty were hanged and it would have made me very happy indeed.

Whether B2 are guilty or not I just cannot sit comfortably with this verdict based on what was presented by the police, it just doesn't sit well with me and for that I am sorry

Quote: "The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that".

And for me that is key, and the judge looks past/dismisses anything that could possibly "incriminate" the police or their investigation modus operandi.

The posters who support the guilty verdict surely realise that nothing was actually proven, and by that I mean proven by means which would stand scrutiny or tests by an independent body, or are indeed accepted internationally, so surely that has to ring alarm bells with these people?

And if you go on to add the complete overlooking of the murder weapon which was presented in court as not being the one that was photographed as the original murder weapon, and absolutely no explanation of what was used on poor David, then surely all this has to lead even simpleminded people to question if the verdict was correct.

These very supporters are those people who are basically saying, well I believe in the police and what they do and because they are honest and trustworthy people, we will take their word for it, because they can do no wrong.......and that has never been the case.

PS. I thought the Youtube link to the Thai guy (Sondhi?) was interesting and I think he hit the nail on the head.

[stephenterry]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

It really all boils down to the alleged DNA found on Hannah's body. Because it hasn't been validated, it is questionable whether it existed, whether it was all used up, or whether it wasn't that of the B2. Had the RTP provided this rock-solid evidence to the court, I'm sure everyone would be satisfied that the right perps had been caught. They didn't, and that is where there is a big hole in the court's judgement, IMO.

As to the above, it's conjecture not a legal argument. However, if the above had been properly submitted and substantiated, I agree this conjecture would carry some weight.

Also like some posters on here, I suspect that the B2 know more than they are admitting and if they want the truth to come out, they need to talk - albeit endangering their lives. Or somebody else does.

[sweatalot]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

Ever heard about being presented wrong facts, forged evidence, persuasation, brainwashing, psycho tricks ....

[JLCrab]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

It really all boils down to the alleged DNA found on Hannah's body. Because it hasn't been validated, it is questionable whether it existed, whether it was all used up, or whether it wasn't that of the B2. Had the RTP provided this rock-solid evidence to the court, I'm sure everyone would be satisfied that the right perps had been caught. They didn't, and that is where there is a big hole in the court's judgement, IMO.

As to the above, it's conjecture not a legal argument. However, if the above had been properly submitted and substantiated, I agree this conjecture would carry some weight.

Also like some posters on here, I suspect that the B2 know more than they are admitting and if they want the truth to come out, they need to talk - albeit endangering their lives. Or somebody else does.

As to the above, it is the conclusion of the Judges.

[sweatalot]

He s brother seemed very convinsed.

Hello Janne. How's the Maya Beach Club doing nowadays?

Maya Beach Club, Janne ....

interesting

[DiscoDan]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

Ever heard about being presented wrong facts, forged evidence, persuasation, brainwashing, psycho tricks ....

To all the people on here slagging of the Millers I suggest you contact Andy Hall via facebook and twitter and ask is there things that have gone on in the court that the Millers know about that we don't.

I await a answer

[Islandlife]

He s brother seemed very convinsed.

Hello Janne. How's the Maya Beach Club doing nowadays?

Maya Beach Club, Janne ....

interesting

we doing ok ,thanks for asking.

[Islandlife]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

Ever heard about being presented wrong facts, forged evidence, persuasation, brainwashing, psycho tricks ....

i think you have watched too meny movies.

[asiamaster]

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

Nonsense.

Even more nonsense!

[stephenterry]

Following the demonstrations at the Thai Embassy in Yangon, I'm wondering if there is going to be a similar backlash from the migrant population on Koh Tao?

It's just possible that this verdict will be the catalyst that opens a few peoples mouths or brings about retribution Burmese style...

Not that I would condone violence...

[TheCruncher]

Honestly guys, this case presented by the Thai police for me goes little further than finger pointing, it's like standing up in court pointing at someone and saying - they did it, case closed.......... guilty

The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that

I wish they had been able to back it up because I'd be first in line cheering as the guilty were hanged and it would have made me very happy indeed.

Whether B2 are guilty or not I just cannot sit comfortably with this verdict based on what was presented by the police, it just doesn't sit well with me and for that I am sorry

Quote: "The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that".

And for me that is key, and the judge looks past/dismisses anything that could possibly "incriminate" the police or their investigation modus operandi.

The posters who support the guilty verdict surely realise that nothing was actually proven, and by that I mean proven by means which would stand scrutiny or tests by an independent body, or are indeed accepted internationally, so surely that has to ring alarm bells with these people?

And if you go on to add the complete overlooking of the murder weapon which was presented in court as not being the one that was photographed as the original murder weapon, and absolutely no explanation of what was used on poor David, then surely all this has to lead even simpleminded people to question if the verdict was correct.

These very supporters are those people who are basically saying, well I believe in the police and what they do and because they are honest and trustworthy people, we will take their word for it, because they can do no wrong.......and that has never been the case.

PS. I thought the Youtube link to the Thai guy (Sondhi?) was interesting and I think he hit the nail on the head.

You think Sondhi hit the nail on the head because he shares your opinion, but who would believe a criminal, convicted for fraud and insulting the monarchy, doesn't have an agenda?

By the way, did you notice that Sondhi switched sides 3 times already during his criminal career, only to his own benefit?

Edited December 26, 2015 by TheCruncher

[Bluespunk]

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

Nonsense.

Even more nonsense!

Nope.

If you don't like what someone says then prove them wrong by rational argument.

Do not resort to the knee jerk, paranoid, if you are critical you hate Thailand, wannabe BS reaction.

[stephenterry]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

It really all boils down to the alleged DNA found on Hannah's body. Because it hasn't been validated, it is questionable whether it existed, whether it was all used up, or whether it wasn't that of the B2. Had the RTP provided this rock-solid evidence to the court, I'm sure everyone would be satisfied that the right perps had been caught. They didn't, and that is where there is a big hole in the court's judgement, IMO.

As to the above, it's conjecture not a legal argument. However, if the above had been properly submitted and substantiated, I agree this conjecture would carry some weight.

Also like some posters on here, I suspect that the B2 know more than they are admitting and if they want the truth to come out, they need to talk - albeit endangering their lives. Or somebody else does.

As to the above, it is the conclusion of the Judges.

Doesn't invalidate my opinion. I respect the court's judgement, but like Andy Hall said, I don't have to agree with it. That's why an appeal is being formulated.

Edited December 26, 2015 by stephenterry

[arrowsdawdle]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

Factually incorrect. Interested parties had representatives in court that were able to translate word for word accurately and efficiently in real time and in written transcripts afterwards to the very standard you imply was not available.

Are you suggesting the information being translated is not coming from police sources?

[arrowsdawdle]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

It really all boils down to the alleged DNA found on Hannah's body. Because it hasn't been validated, it is questionable whether it existed, whether it was all used up, or whether it wasn't that of the B2. Had the RTP provided this rock-solid evidence to the court, I'm sure everyone would be satisfied that the right perps had been caught. They didn't, and that is where there is a big hole in the court's judgement, IMO.

As to the above, it's conjecture not a legal argument. However, if the above had been properly submitted and substantiated, I agree this conjecture would carry some weight.

Also like some posters on here, I suspect that the B2 know more than they are admitting and if they want the truth to come out, they need to talk - albeit endangering their lives. Or somebody else does.

As to the above, it is the conclusion of the Judges.

Were you trying to say it is the collusion of the judges?

[JLCrab]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

It really all boils down to the alleged DNA found on Hannah's body. Because it hasn't been validated, it is questionable whether it existed, whether it was all used up, or whether it wasn't that of the B2. Had the RTP provided this rock-solid evidence to the court, I'm sure everyone would be satisfied that the right perps had been caught. They didn't, and that is where there is a big hole in the court's judgement, IMO.

As to the above, it's conjecture not a legal argument. However, if the above had been properly submitted and substantiated, I agree this conjecture would carry some weight.

Also like some posters on here, I suspect that the B2 know more than they are admitting and if they want the truth to come out, they need to talk - albeit endangering their lives. Or somebody else does.

As to the above, it is the conclusion of the Judges.

Were you trying to say it is the collusion of the judges?

No -- I was just trying to put into this record the written conclusions of the Judges. As Mr. Terry says above, during any appeal, Mr. Hall and the defense team can give their version of why the 2 Burmese chose to go swimming and lose their clothes "in the dead of night".

Edited December 26, 2015 by JLCrab

[xylophone]

Honestly guys, this case presented by the Thai police for me goes little further than finger pointing, it's like standing up in court pointing at someone and saying - they did it, case closed.......... guilty

The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that

I wish they had been able to back it up because I'd be first in line cheering as the guilty were hanged and it would have made me very happy indeed.

Whether B2 are guilty or not I just cannot sit comfortably with this verdict based on what was presented by the police, it just doesn't sit well with me and for that I am sorry

Quote: "The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that".

And for me that is key, and the judge looks past/dismisses anything that could possibly "incriminate" the police or their investigation modus operandi.

The posters who support the guilty verdict surely realise that nothing was actually proven, and by that I mean proven by means which would stand scrutiny or tests by an independent body, or are indeed accepted internationally, so surely that has to ring alarm bells with these people?

And if you go on to add the complete overlooking of the murder weapon which was presented in court as not being the one that was photographed as the original murder weapon, and absolutely no explanation of what was used on poor David, then surely all this has to lead even simpleminded people to question if the verdict was correct.

These very supporters are those people who are basically saying, well I believe in the police and what they do and because they are honest and trustworthy people, we will take their word for it, because they can do no wrong.......and that has never been the case.

PS. I thought the Youtube link to the Thai guy (Sondhi?) was interesting and I think he hit the nail on the head.

You think Sondhi hit the nail on the head because he shares your opinion, but who would believe a criminal, convicted for fraud and insulting the monarchy, doesn't have an agenda?

By the way, did you notice that Sondhi switched sides 3 times already during his criminal career, only to his own benefit?

Ah, I see...........the old trick of trying to divert attention away from the main body of the post by picking up on my PostScript.

So let's delete the PostScript and focus on the main body of the post. The reason you won't is because the points I raised are unanswerable in a logical and commonsense way.

As I said before and I will continue to say, there is nothing concrete/provable that indicates the B2 are guilty and there are SO MANY unanswered questions that the case should have been thrown out before it got this far, and the only reason it hasn't is because face needed to be saved, and money changed hands to ensure that it was.........in a country where corruption is endemic, this surely is no surprise as it has happened time and time again.

Edited December 26, 2015 by xylophone

[DiscoDan]

From the Judge's verdict report via KhaoSod

The two defendants said they suddenly had the idea of going swimming in the sea on their way back to the residence. It was in the dead of the night, and it was raining slightly. It is unimaginable that any person would have made this decision, unless they wanted to erase the evidence on their shirts and bodies.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

In the crime scene photos you will also see there are big fishing boats in the bay the reason they are there is because they were sheltering from a storm that night, this also means that it would of been a extremely dangerous and slow trip to make in a speedboat which also rules out the Nomsod got on a speedboat and made it to Koh Samui in an Hour and a half and got on a plane.

[asiamaster]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

[somo]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

[Emster23]

Just wish to point that verdicts usually are "guilty" or "not guilty". Not "innocent". I've been on jury duty in US, and recall trial of guy charged with being under influence of marijuana while driving. We on the jury agreed the guy was high, but the state did not do a good enough job of proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt, so we returned "not guilty" verdict.

The case here in Thailand was hardly proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". Maybe B2 did it, maybe not. But judge did the job of connecting the dots that should have been done by prosecution.

[stephenterry]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

[JLCrab]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

It does make it, however, very convenient. As mentioned above, the conclusion of the Judges can be contested in an appeal and that would provide the opportunity for the Defense to demonstrate as to why the Judge's' conclusions as to alibi are unfounded.

Edited December 26, 2015 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Allegedly that of the B2 in respect of the female victim, but it has not been validated, so it is questionable whether it actually existed. There is no DNA evidence to link the B2 to the male victim.

[Moonsterk]

So who did it Perry Mason?

I think many posters know exactly who was involved - if you missed it you must be living under a rock.

Why should "many posters" here know who were the real murders? What special talent Thaivisa posters have or what privileged information are they privy to? Your statement is clearly incorrect, and if it isn't then all those posters who do know the identity of the murderers should be considered lower than anything that does live under a rock for not passing that information on.

Not sure if the rules have changed here on TVF but if I posted the names, and anyone who has followed this case from the beginning knows them, the post would be deleted. Nothing to do with living under a rock, but to do with criminal defamation cases and strict moderation on a public forum.

Suffice to say, one of the initial suspects, a relatively young member of an influential family on Koh Tao, (who went into a monastery soon thereafter - wonder why..) had his DNA checked quite publicly, seemingly exonerating himself from at least having had ejaculated into Ms. Witheridge in a sexual act, but then we have investigating officers informing attorneys for the defense that results from that test were never received.

We also have the foremost forensic doctor on Thailand telling us the police screwed up evidence gathering and preservation in every way.

We have a well documented history of police ineptness, and stitching up people.

However what most people do not realize in these trials there is not the western more of " beyond a shadow of a doubt.." but instead," enough evidence to implicate.."

Being migrant workers and on the beach that night, allegedly in possession of a phone belonging to Miller is "enough.. to implicate."

Edited December 26, 2015 by Moonsterk