Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[cumgranosalum]

"the court said yesterday that DNA samples collected from the crime scene are so incontrovertible, that they justify a conviction."

Why does a court need to say this?

Why are people so naive to think that DNA is some "incontrovertible" magic wand that reveals everything beyond doubt....to me, it just creates an impression that the courts simply weren't up to making sense of what was little more than a fiasco created at the crime scene?

Edited December 26, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[TheCruncher]

Honestly guys, this case presented by the Thai police for me goes little further than finger pointing, it's like standing up in court pointing at someone and saying - they did it, case closed.......... guilty

The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that

I wish they had been able to back it up because I'd be first in line cheering as the guilty were hanged and it would have made me very happy indeed.

Whether B2 are guilty or not I just cannot sit comfortably with this verdict based on what was presented by the police, it just doesn't sit well with me and for that I am sorry

Quote: "The evidence they presented goes little beyond finger pointing simply because they cannot back it up in any convincing way - it really is as simple as that".

And for me that is key, and the judge looks past/dismisses anything that could possibly "incriminate" the police or their investigation modus operandi.

The posters who support the guilty verdict surely realise that nothing was actually proven, and by that I mean proven by means which would stand scrutiny or tests by an independent body, or are indeed accepted internationally, so surely that has to ring alarm bells with these people?

And if you go on to add the complete overlooking of the murder weapon which was presented in court as not being the one that was photographed as the original murder weapon, and absolutely no explanation of what was used on poor David, then surely all this has to lead even simpleminded people to question if the verdict was correct.

These very supporters are those people who are basically saying, well I believe in the police and what they do and because they are honest and trustworthy people, we will take their word for it, because they can do no wrong.......and that has never been the case.

PS. I thought the Youtube link to the Thai guy (Sondhi?) was interesting and I think he hit the nail on the head.

You think Sondhi hit the nail on the head because he shares your opinion, but who would believe a criminal, convicted for fraud and insulting the monarchy, doesn't have an agenda?

By the way, did you notice that Sondhi switched sides 3 times already during his criminal career, only to his own benefit?

Ah, I see...........the old trick of trying to divert attention away from the main body of the post by picking up on my PostScript.

So let's delete the PostScript and focus on the main body of the post. The reason you won't is because the points I raised are unanswerable in a logical and commonsense way.

As I said before and I will continue to say, there is nothing concrete/provable that indicates the B2 are guilty and there are SO MANY unanswered questions that the case should have been thrown out before it got this far, and the only reason it hasn't is because face needed to be saved, and money changed hands to ensure that it was.........in a country where corruption is endemic, this surely is no surprise as it has happened time and time again.

If you think the post scriptum is diverting attention a way from the topic, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place, don't you agree.

The fact that you posted it makes it obvious that you considered it worth mentioning, but when you're rebuffed for it, it is off topic.

Aren't we seeing similar reactions for the past 16 months from tv finest?

I know there is a name for that condition, and it has something to do with a river in Africa, try to look it up.

So you don't see any concrete evidence, so that means you don't consider DNA profiling as evidence?

SAMUI Although it accepts that the case against the two Myanmar men - found guilty of killing two British tourists in southern Thailand last year - was not without flaws, the court said yesterday that DNA samples collected from the crime scene are so incontrovertible, that they justify a conviction.

What do you think about this statement of the Miller family? It looks as if they know something that you, or I, don't.

We saw images of two innocent looking men surrounded by tough policemen.

It was easy to conclude they might just be convenient scapegoats. However we resolved to keep an open mind until we had heard all the evidence.

[DiscoDan]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

[stephenterry]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Allegedly that of the B2 in respect of the female victim, but it has not been validated, so it is questionable whether it actually existed. There is no DNA evidence to link the B2 to the male victim.

Or the murder weapon.......

Which is an interesting anomaly. I understand that the hoe produced at court that was tested by Ms Pornthip was not that pictured on the beach. If that is true, the question is why?

In fact there are so many unanswered questions that may never be resolved - the list seems endless.

[Artisi]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

It does make it however very convenient. As mentioned above, the conclusion of the Judges can be contested in an appeal and that would the opportunity to demonstrate as to why the Judge's' conclusions as to alibi are unfounded.

Let's assume there will be a trail at a higher level with judges of a higher calibre, they may even return a guilty verdict but should open up a lot more evidence and discussion for a final high court appeal- normally at this level you can expect a much thorough review and requests for sound substantiated evidence.

[TEFLKrabi]

Just for sake of argument, if there was a successful appeal and the Burmese guys were released, what would the next course of action be in finding the culprit?

[DiscoDan]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You are missing the part where WP claimed to wake up at 4am To go back down the beach to look for a pair of shoes, and the guitar they spent so much time looking for was found in the exact spot they left it.

[paddyjoe41]

The reason the brother sounds happy is,he has been led to believe that what is being said and done in law??? here is correct.Yes he has found closure,but im certain if he can read all the findings and comments that have appeared since and after the trial,then I think he would be a different person,Not that i would like him to suffer any more,But It would be nice for him to know the true facts as they have been dealt,and then he no doubt could read between the lines,and find out,just what has already been said,IN THAILAND THERE IS NO JUSTICE FOR FARANGS<REGARDLESS WHAT COLOUR>or what crime.THATS FACT.

[MrTee]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Unfortunately, the retest could not be made as the remaining DNA had been used up, there was little or no support that the DNA had not been tampered with, that is no evidence to show a complete chain of custody ... why would a defence team test DNA which can not be shown to be reliable..

Oh here is some DNA, test it?

No proof of where it came from.

No proof it had not been tampered with. Just an A4 document with "corrections" and incorrect dates.

Oh but some men, that may or may not have a vested interest, say its ok.

I've said previously that I cannot be sure one way or the other. I heard talk of some secret evidence only known to a select few that shows beyond any doubt the guilt of these men.

And that, perhaps, a blogger can clear this up, but to my mind I've seen nothing, absolutely nothing that is compelling and shows the guilt of these 2 men.

Sound like a crock of brown stiff to me.

If this was your child that was facing a death sentence would you not expect a better standard of proof?

[Artisi]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Allegedly that of the B2 in respect of the female victim, but it has not been validated, so it is questionable whether it actually existed. There is no DNA evidence to link the B2 to the male victim.

Or the murder weapon.......

Which is an interesting anomaly. I understand that the hoe produced at court that was tested by Ms Pornthip was not that pictured on the beach. If that is true, the question is why?

In fact there are so many unanswered questions that may never be resolved - the list seems endless.

Unanswered questions, because it pays to not have questions asked that should be raised and asked. Simple really, hopefully as this progresses to higher courts these questions will be asked and the answers fully considered.

[elgordo38]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

Yes I'm inclined to agree with this..All the Thais I've spoken too agree that this verdict is not correct and they all have the quietly spoken opinion !! that the mafia on Koh Tao is responsible. Remember 99.3% of Thais are happy with the junta !! There is a real real fear of speaking out more so than ever...And I do also know that they are fiercely patriotic so if it came down to it maybe they wouldn't be so happy to speak against there country men to outsiders..

Quote There is a real real fear of speaking out more so than ever. unquote. Yes this is true my g/f keeps shushing me and telling me the walls have ears. The conversion of the masses is well on its way.

[stephenterry]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Incorrect. Stop spreading misinformation. The original DNA sperm samples, if they actually existed, were said to be all used up (which in itself is tantamount to a blatant untruth). The defence was offered a half-way house DNA profile which could have come from anywhere or anybody. Even spittle. That was rightly rejected by the defence.

[Moonsterk]

Just wish to point that verdicts usually are "guilty" or "not guilty". Not "innocent". I've been on jury duty in US, and recall trial of guy charged with being under influence of marijuana while driving. We on the jury agreed the guy was high, but the state did not do a good enough job of proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt, so we returned "not guilty" verdict.

The case here in Thailand was hardly proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". Maybe B2 did it, maybe not. But judge did the job of connecting the dots that should have been done by prosecution.

Here's where the misunderstanding of Thai justice lies. " Beyond a reasonable doubt.." is not the standard used to judge guilt. Instead, it is, "Enough evidence to implicate... "

[AGareth2]

this matter is now between Burma and Thailand

[Moonsterk]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Incorrect. Stop spreading misinformation. The original DNA sperm samples, if they actually existed, were said to be all used up (which in itself is tantamount to a blatant untruth). The defence was offered a half-way house DNA profile which could have come from anywhere or anybody. Even spittle. That was rightly rejected by the defence.

The defense did a crap job, and who can blame them. They would be ostracized by their peers had they actually gotten the lads acquitted and career prospects would plummet.

Here's how it is and why we westerners will never understand as long as we hold our western values to Thais;

The boys are Myanmar, not deserving of justice and it's far more important to assuage tourist fears of rapist-murderers running around loose than spending a lot of time trying to convict those who will just later pay their way out of a meaningful sentence- if they don't first pay the way out of a conviction.

[Artisi]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Unfortunately, the retest could not be made as the remaining DNA had been used up, there was little or no support that the DNA had not been tampered with, that is no evidence to show a complete chain of custody ... why would a defence team test DNA which can not be shown to be reliable..

Oh here is some DNA, test it?

No proof of where it came from.

No proof it had not been tampered with. Just an A4 document with "corrections" and incorrect dates.

Oh but some men, that may or may not have a vested interest, say its ok.

I've said previously that I cannot be sure one way or the other. I heard talk of some secret evidence only known to a select few that shows beyond any doubt the guilt of these men.

And that, perhaps, a blogger can clear this up, but to my mind I've seen nothing, absolutely nothing that is compelling and shows the guilt of these 2 men.

Sound like a crock of brown stiff to me.

If this was your child that was facing a death sentence would you not expect a better standard of proof?

If it were my child, either murdered or changed with murder, and considering the crap that passed as an investigation or evidence, I would have no problem engaging a ruthless hardened ex copper or the like to undertake some in - depth investigation using what ever methods were needed to extract some meaningful dialogue from whom I considered would have first hand knowledge or even involvement in these murders.

If you think the likely torture of the B2 was tough it would be like a walk in the park to what I would condone to get to the truth on behalf of my child.

[stephenterry]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You are missing the part where WP claimed to wake up at 4am To go back down the beach to look for a pair of shoes, and the guitar they spent so much time looking for was found in the exact spot they left it.

Read my highlighted sentence. It's a serious comment. I am open-minded enough to accept the B2's alibi as being weak, and if they want or expect the truth to emerge, they need to talk. I am also open-minded enough to accept that they could have been at the crime scene, witnessing Thai thugs attacking the two victims, but I have serious reservations that they killed anyone.

Why? because the locals would have dragged them to police HQ the following day.

[Artisi]

Just for sake of argument, if there was a successful appeal and the Burmese guys were released, what would the next course of action be in finding the culprit?

..

The return of pre-paid deposits and the booking of extended overseas airfares and travel.

[RtotheC]

As much I love living in Thailand (and I truly do), things like this are the reason why it will continue to be considered a third world country. I don't claim to know all the facts, but the one fact I do know is that given the considerate amount of flaws in the investigative process the case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not.

[Lucifer]

this matter is now between Burma and Thailand

So the British should accept lies and half truths?

[DiscoDan]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Incorrect. Stop spreading misinformation. The original DNA sperm samples, if they actually existed, were said to be all used up (which in itself is tantamount to a blatant untruth). The defence was offered a half-way house DNA profile which could have come from anywhere or anybody. Even spittle. That was rightly rejected by the defence.

You are the on spreading misinformation all samples were replicated, even if they produced original sperm you lot would of said the police must have given the B2 some hand relief

[greenchair]

The phone. Why did they have the victims phone.

To be honest mate I've followed this case and couldn't ascertain what phone and who it belonged too kept on getting mentioned..For sure the early phone produced by the RTP wasn't the same as the later one produced..Someone on here will be able to explain but the phone business was certainly not clear..Mind you that same statement would apply to the whole case..

We all fought black and blue the phone was not David's. Until the last day of court the family produced the serial number of the phone from England. It matched. Suddenly Zaw says he and Muang Muang went back to the area to look for their guitar. Zaw himself says he just happened to be walking along the beach at 5 o'clock in the morning and stumbled upon the phone. He then gave it to his friend. Who smashed it and threw it away. At that time I could no longer explain away their actions of the night. It seems like the classic crime. Commit crime, wash off blood, get rid of clothes covered in blood, take belonging of victim , get rid of and conceal belonging, go back to crime upon waking to find belongings left behind. At least one of them was not sleeping at 5 am when we all thought he was. It is Zaw himself that announced to the world that the phone in his possession was David's.

[DiscoDan]

"The two defendants failed to produce any alibi to confirm their whereabouts after they left the log and parted company with Mau Mau."

With all that support and a full defense team unable to come with an alibi????

IMO, that could implicate some very violent men - and self preservation comes into play. Nowhere is safe, even a high-security prison in NST, especially when wearing shackles 24/7.

Anyway, so the two wandered around, found a phone on the beach, went for a swim, lost their clothes and guitar, went back to their lodgings and slept. Back to work the next day. Sounds pretty normal thing for young men to do. Yes, it's not a rock-solid alibi, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You are missing the part where WP claimed to wake up at 4am To go back down the beach to look for a pair of shoes, and the guitar they spent so much time looking for was found in the exact spot they left it.

Read my highlighted sentence. It's a serious comment. I am open-minded enough to accept the B2's alibi as being weak, and if they want or expect the truth to emerge, they need to talk. I am also open-minded enough to accept that they could have been at the crime scene, witnessing Thai thugs attacking the two victims, but I have serious reservations that they killed anyone.

Why? because the locals would have dragged them to police HQ the following day.

They would of if they witnessed the crime but they didn't, even when the police said they were looking at Mon as a suspect they also said that they were still looking for the 3 people sitting on the log playing guitar,

When the police did catch up with them they were with another six people, and what did WP ZL MM do ? ran away what did the other 6 people do ? stay

The excuse for this was they ran because they were living in Thailand illegally, yet in December as if by magic the defense pull out a passport claiming it is Zaw Lins.

They never came forward to clear there name and even though they had a very important part of evidence (davids phone) instead of handing to the police they got there friends to destroy it.

If the B2 know that locals did it and there lives are in danger why would you bring your mother to Thailand ?

[Yann55]

1/ To admit that there were flaws in the chain of custody and then claim that the DNA evidence was airtight, is like saying that an object can be black and white at the same time. It may be possible in quantum physics, but not in a court of law.

2/ In such a controversial case, how can the final verdict rely on the shoulders of ONE individual ? The pressure would be totally overwhelming. That's a dangerous system if ever there was one.

[stephenterry]

snip

Read my highlighted sentence. It's a serious comment. I am open-minded enough to accept the B2's alibi as being weak, and if they want or expect the truth to emerge, they need to talk. I am also open-minded enough to accept that they could have been at the crime scene, witnessing Thai thugs attacking the two victims, but I have serious reservations that they killed anyone.

Why? because the locals would have dragged them to police HQ the following day.

They would of if they witnessed the crime but they didn't, even when the police said they were looking at Mon as a suspect they also said that they were still looking for the 3 people sitting on the log playing guitar,

When the police did catch up with them they were with another six people, and what did WP ZL MM do ? ran away what did the other 6 people do ? stay

The excuse for this was they ran because they were living in Thailand illegally, yet in December as if by magic the defense pull out a passport claiming it is Zaw Lins.

They never came forward to clear there name and even though they had a very important part of evidence (davids phone) instead of handing to the police they got there friends to destroy it.

If the B2 know that locals did it and there lives are in danger why would you bring your mother to Thailand ?

I've stated my opinion, and I suggest you focus on stating yours without flaming other posters who don't agree with your POV.

[greenchair]

There were 3 judge's. They were represented by the best legal minds from both Burma and thailand.they had human rights groups, journalists and millions of baht donated for a fair trial. Still the best defense amnesty international or their lawyers can come up with is they were tortured and did not have a lawyer. The one piece of evidence that they could soundly defend was the confession. The defense ignored everything else. Why? There were too many coincidences that Coul not be explained away. They were not the only ones there. They should come clean now. It's done

[lucky11]

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

1. Why your interest in this case?

2. What is your connection to Koh Tao, and those involved in the case?

Why the third degree questioning, are you a policeman or detective?

Isn't everyone posting on this forum interested in the case? If they weren't...........then they wouldn't be posting, would they?

Cut out the personal aspect as this is none of your business. Why don't you just post your views (for or against) and let others get their point of view over without all of this nonsense regards what you ask in question number 2.

This is not adding to the debate in the slightest and is not needed on this forum!! Why not find a topic where you can contribute in a more constructive manner and pull the plug on this one?

[oneday]

"...Koh Tao Murders: Court Says DNA Trumps Other Flaws in Case..."

Seriously...are you kidding? Jesus, the DNA was one of the biggest flaws in the whole case. Collecting it, analyzing it and especially documentation.

[lucky11]

this matter is now between Burma and Thailand

Yes it is! and they have already stated that it will have no affect on relations between the two countries as they can see that justice has been done according to Thai law and they have no issues with them being found guilty and being handed down the death sentence!!

[thailandstupidlife]

DNA that has been trashed ? who is stupid enough to trust this court ?