Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[JLCrab]

<snip>

Lucky11, do you agree that the full quote from Jonathon Head is "For Koh Tao key is to read verdict. Judges admitted lots of flaws in investigation. But stated DNA match overrides all those concerns. If the DNA match is sound, so is the verdict. It's that simple. That's why it was so bizarre that defence lawyers did not challenge DNA methods" ?

To which Andy Hall responded to the above Jonathan Head (@pakhead) tweet:

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@pakhead just suggestion but if you want to constructively/accurately critique the defense, read ALL major prosecution/defence DNA testimony

6:11 PM - 31 Dec 2015

Edited January 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[lucky11]

"One of the translators, Ko Ye, admitted to the Samui Central Court yesterday that he could not read or write Thai and barely understood the Rakhine dialect."

"Under questioning from the defense, he said that he signed a statement confirming what happened in the interrogation even though he didn’t know what it said in Thai"

"And he wasn’t asked to sign it until a month afterward."

Source: http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/16101-thai-police-used-roti-vendors-as-translators.html

The torture allegations are irrelevant!! Simple as that.

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

― Aldous Huxley, Complete Essays 2, 1926-29

You are missing the point I'm afraid. For a start they ARE NOT facts, they are a total fabrication (in my eyes) that was instructed by these human rights plebs as standard practice in their strategy in such cases.

Secondly, the main point. the torture aspect played NO PART in the trial, or aren't you aware of that? in other words it is academic to argue this point and irrelevant to proceedings, so less discussion about this as it a 'red herring' debate that should cease.

[KunMatt]

<snip>

Lucky11, do you agree that the full quote from Jonathon Head is "For Koh Tao key is to read verdict. Judges admitted lots of flaws in investigation. But stated DNA match overrides all those concerns. If the DNA match is sound, so is the verdict. It's that simple. That's why it was so bizarre that defence lawyers did not challenge DNA methods" ?

To which Andy Hall responded to the above Jonathan Head (@pakhead) tweet:

45]

FollowAndy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@pakhead just suggestion but if you want to constructively/accurately critique the defense, read ALL major prosecution/defence DNA testimony

And we can discuss that as soon as Lucky11 confirms what he understands the quote to be in full.

[Bluespunk]

"One of the translators, Ko Ye, admitted to the Samui Central Court yesterday that he could not read or write Thai and barely understood the Rakhine dialect."

"Under questioning from the defense, he said that he signed a statement confirming what happened in the interrogation even though he didn’t know what it said in Thai"

"And he wasn’t asked to sign it until a month afterward."

Source: http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/16101-thai-police-used-roti-vendors-as-translators.html

The torture allegations are irrelevant!! Simple as that.

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

― Aldous Huxley, Complete Essays 2, 1926-29

You are missing the point I'm afraid. For a start they ARE NOT facts, they are a total fabrication (in my eyes) that was instructed by these human rights plebs as standard practice in their strategy in such cases.

Secondly, the main point. the torture aspect played NO PART in the trial, or aren't you aware of that? in other words it is academic to argue this point and irrelevant to proceedings, so less discussion about this as it a 'red herring' debate that should cease.

Thankfully you do not get to decide what is discussed, particularly as you are completely unable to admit when you are wrong.

[greenchair]

Don't know which part you are reading. They are talking about the torture of suspects. And asking for an enquiry. Nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. Secondly they disagree, with the dna collection and analysis (I agree ,the dna cannot be trusted ).

Because of this they would like the death penalty sentence reviewed .

Read slowly and carefully. At no time does it defend that innocent people are in the prison. Probably because there is a truckload of other evidence that for now has not been answered to adequately. That may change on appeal. But for now even half the posters on here believe at least one of them had some role in these murders.

Thinking of a Britney Spears song might help you.

Again you're being misleading here. So we don't know which part you are reading either.

So, if the suspect is tortured and because of that torture he is forced to signed a confession, when in fact he's innocent, that has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence.

I mean, that's your understanding of it huh?

This is what I don't accept just to be clear.

This confession should not have been admitted to the court. It was obtained illegally, I have no doubt they may have been tortured.

The dna was sloppy, even I know that with layman's knowledge.

Though if it had been collected correctly, it may well have had the result desired by the police.

Torture, confession,shoddy dna have served the defense well to detract away from what transpired between the hours of 1am to 6am. Because when you ask the b3 about that night,and how they came to be in possession of David's phone and why they were swimming in the rain at 1am, and where are their clothes from the night and why they were back at the beach wondering around at

5 am and why they tried to hide David's phone. They will tell you the most unbelievable story. So the defense and yourself and the posters here when asked these questions will go straight into a tirade about torture and sundry because bless you all, you are not able to explain what the b3 were up to.

And if you ask wp or andy hall why wp had David's phone the answer will be I was drunk, I not remember, I was tortured, my human rights have been violated.

I am able to see there are 2 different issues here. You are not. Read slowly

[Khun Han]

<snip>

Lucky11, do you agree that the full quote from Jonathon Head is "For Koh Tao key is to read verdict. Judges admitted lots of flaws in investigation. But stated DNA match overrides all those concerns. If the DNA match is sound, so is the verdict. It's that simple. That's why it was so bizarre that defence lawyers did not challenge DNA methods" ?

To which Andy Hall responded to the above Jonathan Head (@pakhead) tweet:

45]

FollowAndy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@pakhead just suggestion but if you want to constructively/accurately critique the defense, read ALL major prosecution/defence DNA testimony

And we can discuss that as soon as Lucky11 confirms what he understands the quote to be in full.

I've asked Jonathan Head about it on the relevant twitter, so hopefully this nonsense can be put to bed.

[Khun Han]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from “local mafia.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

[Artisi]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from “local mafia.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

Don't ask difficult questions, what's if you really need a straight and honest answer, if you want deflection, misquotes, go ahead.....

[lucky11]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from “local mafia.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

I can't see any reason why they should object to it being translated into English as it might make you lot more understanding of what went on in the trial, destroying your arguments in the process, the conclusions of the judge was as to an undeniable guilty verdict of the B2 through the DNA evidence alone, which trumped all of the other evidence!!

Explain why the so called 'fake mafia' would be concerned about that!! Do you think that any other names other than the B2 were brought up in the trial?

[lkv]

Don't know which part you are reading. They are talking about the torture of suspects. And asking for an enquiry. Nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. Secondly they disagree, with the dna collection and analysis (I agree ,the dna cannot be trusted ).

Because of this they would like the death penalty sentence reviewed .

Read slowly and carefully. At no time does it defend that innocent people are in the prison. Probably because there is a truckload of other evidence that for now has not been answered to adequately. That may change on appeal. But for now even half the posters on here believe at least one of them had some role in these murders.

Thinking of a Britney Spears song might help you.

Again you're being misleading here. So we don't know which part you are reading either.

So, if the suspect is tortured and because of that torture he is forced to signed a confession, when in fact he's innocent, that has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence.

I mean, that's your understanding of it huh?

This is what I don't accept just to be clear.

This confession should not have been admitted to the court. It was obtained illegally, I have no doubt they may have been tortured.

The dna was sloppy, even I know that with layman's knowledge.

Though if it had been collected correctly, it may well have had the result desired by the police.

Torture, confession,shoddy dna have served the defense well to detract away from what transpired between the hours of 1am to 6am. Because when you ask the b3 about that night,and how they came to be in possession of David's phone and why they were swimming in the rain at 1am, and where are their clothes from the night and why they were back at the beach wondering around at

5 am and why they tried to hide David's phone. They will tell you the most unbelievable story. So the defense and yourself and the posters here when asked these questions will go straight into a tirade about torture and sundry because bless you all, you are not able to explain what the b3 were up to.

And if you ask wp or andy hall why wp had David's phone the answer will be I was drunk, I not remember, I was tortured, my human rights have been violated.

I am able to see there are 2 different issues here. You are not. Read slowly

Ok so let me explain to you then how normal justice systems work, greenchair, and the reason they work this way is because Everybody is presumed innocent unless proven guilty. Not the other way around.

So if the confession should not have been accepted to the court, if the DNA was sloppy, then it's irrelevant what stories those 2 guys have told and if they made any sense or not. Do you understand the concept of that? You are talking about migrant workers that could be so scared and abused that they keep changing their story even being innocent. They could tell you one thing now and next hour contradict themselves.They could do that out of a fear not to be framed. Even being innocent. They could perhaps be doing that because the Police started to chase and treat all the Burmese aggressively looking for a scapegoat right after the murders. They could be doing that maybe because the police has always treated Burmese on that island like 5th world citizens. They could be doing that for any reason.

So it is IRRELEVANT if their stories stick or not stick or what the reason they don't stick was. What is relevant in a normal justice system is DNA evidence obtained and processed at high standards, and how that was obtained, not forced confessions, not cabbies being offered 700,000 baht by the RTP to testify against them.

Surely you are starting to see the big picture, I am happy I could help.

Edited January 3, 2016 by lkv

[fey]

Look at how the two cops are standing with their peters in the face of the accused.

Total dominance pic. I wonder if it was planned that way.

My old boss used to do that walking up on female staff seated at their desks. When i explained to them about this dominance stance they never saw it the same way.

He always turned aside with me though, it was never a face shot.

[DiscoDan]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from “local mafia.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Funny how friend of Andy Hall and Samui expat Sarah Yuen was allowed to report freely without intimidation, maybe she is Samui Mafia ?

The same one that failed to report the Confirmation of Davids phone from his dad when Andy Hall took the stand as a "witness" and announced it on the last day as "Breaking news",

The same evidence Andy Hall only admitted to knowing after she broke the story,

All those reporters at the court house all the defense team and helpers and not one person managed to get a photo of Mr Mafia threatening the translator ?

Looks like there are about 100 steps down to the car park yet no one managed to see how he got away ?

Maybe everyone are to scared to talk ?

Edited January 3, 2016 by DiscoDan

[Khun Han]

^Mafia thugs always do their threatening in really public places don't they? Why would they do it discreetly when they can do it in full public view. Doesn't make sense.

So, after all the nonsense about Jonathan Head, about skin damage being repaired by the embalming process, etc, etc, etc. We now have posters deriding a British reporter's statement that their interpreters were frightened off by the mafia. It's like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party at times in these discussions! Black becomes white and white becomes black, and they're sticking to their opinions!

Edited January 3, 2016 by Khun Han

[AleG]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from “local mafia.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Funny how friend of Andy Hall and Samui expat Sarah Yuen was allowed to report freely without intimidation, maybe she is Samui Mafia ?

The same one that failed to report the Confirmation of Davids phone from his dad when Andy Hall took the stand as a "witness" and announced it on the last day as "Breaking news",

The same evidence Andy Hall only admitted to knowing after she broke the story,

All those reporters at the court house all the defense team and helpers and not one person managed to get a photo of Mr Mafia threatening the translator ?

Looks like there are about 100 steps down to the car park yet no one managed to see how he got away ?

Maybe everyone are to scared to talk ?

Also worth pointing out that this happened in Koh Samui, why would the Samui "mafia" want to hamper the work of the press when the prosecution is presenting their case? And not a word of any such interference when the defense had their turn.

[iReason]

"The first policeman on the scene, Lt. Jakrapan Kaewkao, told the court that he received a call at 6.30am that morning about two tourists’ bodies found on the beach."

"He said he discovered a gruesome scene on arrival, with Miller “face down” in the shallow surf."

"This is clearly not the case as in the first crime scene photos, David is lying in the sea face up."

"This is the same officer who said he found the clothes in a neat pile."

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/families-hear-gruesome-details-as-trial-for-thailand-murders-of-two-british-tourists-begins/story-fnh81fz8-1227434677803

[iReason]

"There was no forensic doctor at the scene of the killings."

"The head of Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) said the DNA of two males was found on the handle of a garden hoe but it doesn’t match that of the two Burmese defendants or the victims."

"The shock announcement surprised even the defence lawyers, led by Nakhon Chomphuchat, who had been told by the Thai police there was no DNA found on the garden hoe."

“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

"During the hearing it was disclosed that Norfolk Coroner’s court had carried out its own autopsy on the body of Ms Witheridge, after it was returned to the UK, and there were significant differences noted between that report and the report compiled by the Thai pathologist."

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

Edited January 3, 2016 by iReason

[lucky11]

"There was no forensic doctor at the scene of the killings."

"The head of Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) said the DNA of two males was found on the handle of a garden hoe but it doesn’t match that of the two Burmese defendants or the victims."

"The shock announcement surprised even the defence lawyers, led by Nakhon Chomphuchat, who had been told by the Thai police there was no DNA found on the garden hoe."

“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

"During the hearing it was disclosed that Norfolk Coroner’s court had carried out its own autopsy on the body of Ms Witheridge, after it was returned to the UK, and there were significant differences noted between that report and the report compiled by the Thai pathologist."

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

.............and the outcome 'guilty as charged' - enough evidence to find them guilty. End of story. BTW, I wish them every bit of luck in the appeal, boy, are they going to need it with this bunch of incompetents running it again!!

[iReason]

1. Broken Hoe said to be found at the scene:

2. Hoe presented in court:

Edited January 3, 2016 by iReason

[greenchair]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from local mafia.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

Really I have no idea about this mafia codswallop. I am only interested in the time of 1am to 6am who was where doing what ???and why they were doing that, and how they came to be in the place they are now. The rest is fairy tales and speculation. I don't trust the police. I don't trust the prosecutor. I am interested in the b3 own story.

There are questions, I have about the story. Nobody wants to address it. I don't know why.

[lkv]

There's crime everywhere, does that make the B2 the innocent victims of a vast conspiracy? No, it doesn't.

You may have noticed that, contrary to the "everyone knows" theme that Burmese are used as scapegoats, none of the... hang on, the one murder that is mentioned had Burmese people used as scapegoats.

The other crimes mentioned are all business related events, none of tourists being targeted as victims.

The people running the place may be as bad as you wish to believe, but they make their money by making sure people keep coming, supposedly murdering a pair of young tourists at your business's doorstep does not work so well to that end.

Incidentally, that blog incorrectly says that laboratories in Bangkok are not certified with the ISO17025 standard, which I already shown to be false.

Yes, I apologize. I did not realize that only for this crime, because it involved British tourists and it attracted international media attention, scapegoats were used.

I did not realize that all the other murders were business related events so scapegoats did not need to be used. Next time I would love to travel to Koh Tao to see these "business people" firing shots at each other. I just hope I stay in the bar a little further from where they are using the guns. Well....not that one bar at least. On a second thought, it could be any bar. But hey, I'm happy with that as long as it makes me feel safe as a tourist and they don't shoot at me. Loving it.

Yeah those "bad people" are just trying to make a living off tourism, of course they would not want that jeopardized. Unless some do some coke or Yaba and for a split second, tourism longevity is no longer a major concern for them. I'm sure they did not think this would attract so much attention.

What the blog incorrectly or correctly states about the ISO has less relevance when the root of the problem is how the DNA evidence was obtained and how reliable it is.

Also worth pointing out that this happened in Koh Samui, why would the Samui "mafia" want to hamper the work of the press when the prosecution is presenting their case? And not a word of any such interference when the defense had their turn.

You got me with that one AleG, I don't have any insider information in regards to what the connections are between the "powerful ruling families" within the Ko Tao - Ko Phangan - Ko Samui triangle, but if you would provide us with more of an insight, that would be highly appreciated.

Edited January 3, 2016 by lkv

[phuketandsee]

If people want to keep this thread going I suggest you join those of us who decided to ignore Lucky11 and the other shills some time ago. It is clear their intention is to close this down as previous shills (or them in previous identities) have managed before. Don't let them bait you. There clearly is no point in responding to them since you are never going to change their position.

I disagree. Let them talk. It's not about them baiting us. I'm not going to explain the logic behind what I've just said but whoever is smart enough will understand it.

This thread has already generated over 200k views.

If nothing else their comments highlight the paucity of points they can make in defending the verdict.

[AleG]

1. Broken Hoe said to be found at the scene:

2. Hoe presented in court:

The second photo is of a hoe used by the police as an example during a meeting with the press... and I'm the one accused of posting misinformation!

[lkv]

If people want to keep this thread going I suggest you join those of us who decided to ignore Lucky11 and the other shills some time ago. It is clear their intention is to close this down as previous shills (or them in previous identities) have managed before. Don't let them bait you. There clearly is no point in responding to them since you are never going to change their position.

I disagree. Let them talk. It's not about them baiting us. I'm not going to explain the logic behind what I've just said but whoever is smart enough will understand it.

This thread has already generated over 200k views.

If nothing else their comments highlight the paucity of points they can make in defending the verdict.

It just works against them but then of course they can't see it

So let's just thank them for their contribution of keeping the thread flaming and active. Lol.

[DiscoDan]

^Mafia thugs always do their threatening in really public places don't they? Why would they do it discreetly when they can do it in full public view. Doesn't make sense.

So, after all the nonsense about Jonathan Head, about skin damage being repaired by the embalming process, etc, etc, etc. We now have posters deriding a British reporter's statement that their interpreters were frightened off by the mafia. It's like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party at times in these discussions! Black becomes white and white becomes black, and they're sticking to their opinions!

I am not saying the reporter is lying, who supplied him the translator ? the prosecution or the defense ? or did he bring his own because apparently the 3 translators on Samui were to scared to help.

As for the embalming everyone is welcome to google " washout out bite marks embalming "

[AleG]

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

Really I have no idea about this mafia codswallop. I am only interested in the time of 1am to 6am who was where doing what ???and why they were doing that, and how they came to be in the place they are now. The rest is fairy tales and speculation. I don't trust the police. I don't trust the prosecutor. I am interested in the b3 own story.

There are questions, I have about the story. Nobody wants to address it. I don't know why.

One more thing to consider, why would they lie about not having been summoned to have DNA samples taken?

"The B2 also confirmed in court to the prosecution that they were not randomly tested prior to their arrest."

So why is Zaw Lin waiting in line on the day they were doing the DNA mass collection?

Edited January 3, 2016 by AleG

[KunMatt]

"There was no forensic doctor at the scene of the killings."

"The head of Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) said the DNA of two males was found on the handle of a garden hoe but it doesn’t match that of the two Burmese defendants or the victims."

"The shock announcement surprised even the defence lawyers, led by Nakhon Chomphuchat, who had been told by the Thai police there was no DNA found on the garden hoe."

“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

"During the hearing it was disclosed that Norfolk Coroner’s court had carried out its own autopsy on the body of Ms Witheridge, after it was returned to the UK, and there were significant differences noted between that report and the report compiled by the Thai pathologist."

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

.............and the outcome 'guilty as charged' - enough evidence to find them guilty. End of story. BTW, I wish them every bit of luck in the appeal, boy, are they going to need it with this bunch of incompetents running it again!!

The questions and answers you choose to blatently ignore just shows that you are as much of a liar and fraud as all the other shills.

The only people vying for the execution of the B2 are lowlifes who have vested interests in Koh Tao and are happy for two innocent people to lose their lives over it. Everyone else wants justice no matter who is responsible for the crime.

[stephenterry]

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

Really I have no idea about this mafia codswallop. I am only interested in the time of 1am to 6am who was where doing what ???and why they were doing that, and how they came to be in the place they are now. The rest is fairy tales and speculation. I don't trust the police. I don't trust the prosecutor. I am interested in the b3 own story.

There are questions, I have about the story. Nobody wants to address it. I don't know why.

One more thing to consider, why would they lie about not having been summoned to have DNA samples taken?

CXsPTXtUMAAGukU.jpg

"The B2 also confirmed in court to the prosecution that they were not randomly tested prior to their arrest."

So why is Zaw Lin waiting in line on the day they were doing the DNA mass collection?

For once two posts that contain sensible statements and questions. I would also like to know the answers. Clearly the b2 have weak alibies, although that doesn't make them violent murderers.

So far on this thread posters are either black or white in defence of their views. It would be more productive to focus on the grey areas if the truth is everyone's aim.

Possibly not attainable, but posters should be willing to examine and discuss it more openly. For example, the above and the missing clothes and hair. So what happened?

[stephenterry]

My view is that the Rtp are protecting their own on koh tao and while the b2 are scapegoats they were involved in some way. No other scenario fits what's happened.

[Khun Han]

"One of the foreign reporters said that he was unable to hire a Thai translator after dozens of locals declined the job offer, citing fear from local mafia.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437573990

Greenchair, who do you think the local mafia on Koh Tao are? The Burmese migrant workers? Why would the local mafia not want the trial translated into English for the foreign media?

Really I have no idea about this mafia codswallop. I am only interested in the time of 1am to 6am who was where doing what ???and why they were doing that, and how they came to be in the place they are now. The rest is fairy tales and speculation. I don't trust the police. I don't trust the prosecutor. I am interested in the b3 own story.

There are questions, I have about the story. Nobody wants to address it. I don't know why.

"I have no idea about this mafia codwallop."

Local mafias are not codswallop. Their behaviours over ther the years are well documented. The fact that a poster such as yourself, who has (according to Brit Tim) followed this case from the beginning, claims to have no idea about such entities is quite telling about where you are coming from.

"I am interested in the b3 own story."

But not interested in the far more suspicious stories of certain other Koh Tao residents. Again, quite telling.

It's been mentioned a few times on this thread that certain posters always try to keep the focus of discussion away from certain people and on the supposed guilt of the B2. The post I've quoted is a classic example of this.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.