Large class sizes - Let's discuss

[simon43]

Firstly, a very Happy Xmas to one and all

As a point of principle, I never apply for primary/secondary teaching jobs where the class size is more than 25. My reasoning is that with a larger class size, I would simply not have the time in a 50 minute lesson to provide what I would consider to be an acceptable quality of teaching, bearing in mind that in a class there will be gifted students, students with various levels of learning difficulty, boisterous students who need some attention to get them in order etc.

Of course, if I simply want to be a white face, providing classroom entertainment, and awarding passes to all students, regardless of whether they are learning OK or not, then bring on the 50 student class size.

How about you? What is your typical class size? Can you provide an acceptable quality level of teaching to all your students in a class size of 35+ ?

[otherstuff1957]

IMHO large class sizes is the #1 problem with the Thai educational system today.

#2 is the Thai curriculum, which has too many subjects and sets unrealistic standards for students.

[Utley]

When I was a youngster, the average class size was 40; seemed to work out well.

[eldragon]

Id sooner split the classes and teach each of em half as often.

[stubuzz]

Mixed ability classes are another factor holding back the students.

[chicowoodduck]

So getting all the students to class should not be a problem.....?

[timber]

Studies show that when you instruct more than 12 people the system suffers. It becomes less intimate, more time is spent on the slower students, or brighter students, management of the class takes longer etc. This is a generalization, as you also

have to consider the quality of the teacher, students, and lesson plans. My teaching experience indicated that somewhere around twenty students I started to notice problems with each additional student. At this level to spend time with individual students benefited by having some type of assistance. At some point between 20 and 30 you become an instructor rather than teacher. I think in Thailand they train instructors rather than teachers, I have seen teachers with four students instructing rather than teaching. An instructor teaches the students what the student should learn and a teacher assists the individual in learning the subject material.

[Raymonddiaz]

Another issue of Thai education is the level of Thai English Teachers.

[eliotness]

30 to 35 is the usual class size in my local senior (13 to 18) school. Sounds a lot, but the number of students that actually attend can vary from 6 to a full class. There seems to be so many "other" activities that take priority over learning English, from sports, boy scouts and other cultural events. Sometimes classes are even cancelled which together with poor attendance, for whatever reason, makes lesson planning for the farang teacher a nightmare.

Interestingly, the Head of English at the school said in her Christmas address to the school party that learning English would give Thais an advantage over the rest of ASEAN. At that point I nearly fell off my seat laughing, but I don't think the other parents or teachers would, or could see the massive joke.

[Somtamnication]

I have 21 students in the class and it is a comfortable level for both of us. It is a private EP school.

But one of the largest and sought after schools to enter in Phuket, they have 50 students per class (Phuket Wit) for the M levels. Utterly stupid and self defeating.

[Colabamumbai]

Some Schools 40 to 50 students, others 20. My last job at a technical college 17 students. Some private schools 20 students, no phones allowed in class. The college everyone has an I phone, so getting their attention is hard except for the few who shut off their phones and are interested in learning. Some do need their I phones for class computer work, as they do not own computers.

I prefer smaller classes, more attentive and in the end more educated.

P.S. I walked the class, never sat, made every student reply to me individually, close up.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Colabamumbai

[NoshowJones]

When I was a youngster, the average class size was 40; seemed to work out well.

Depends on whether it's a Secondary or Primary class, in a Primary class, you have the same teacher most of the time, unless of course things

have changed since I was at school.

In a Secondary school, you have different teachers for different subjects.

[Utley]

When I was a youngster, the average class size was 40; seemed to work out well.

Depends on whether it's a Secondary or Primary class, in a Primary class, you have the same teacher most of the time, unless of course things

have changed since I was at school.

In a Secondary school, you have different teachers for different subjects.

Correct, in the school system to which I went the class sizes were all about 40 students per teacher in both primary and secondary schools.

I had some college classes that had close to 100 - but those were freshman year lecture classes.

[thailandstupidlife]

So you don't need to work but waste your time in a class where nobody cares anything you tell ? Nice life <3

[smotherb]

In all, I see placing the blame elsewhere, but no mention of poor quality teachers--both foreign and Thai.

Sure the system, the curricula, the classrooms, the students, the parents, the administrators, the learning material, the earning ethic all suck; but does no one think better teachers would help?

[Utley]

I am not a parent and so this is an observation from the outside looking in, but it seems to me that there are four critical things missing from the American public school system:

1. Parent participation in their child's education
2. Ability of the teacher to discipline the students in a non-physical way
3. The school principal and vice principal have the option of administering physical discipline - I know many people will disagree with this point.
4. B average grades or better are required to participate in extra-curricular activities.

Before I retired to Thailand, I was on the school board of my local Catholic church school. In order for the children to attend, the parents had to participate in some manner. If a child was unruly and disturbing the class, discipline was administered quickly (not the physical kind) and the parents were notified of their child's behavior.

The school won the 'National School Excellence Award" several years running when I was there. And yes, the class sizes approached 40 students per teacher although we tried to keep them closer to 30.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Utley

[fred Kubasa]

How can " class size" matter at all in the Thai " No Fail" promotion policy ! Have 25 = all pass,

have 300 = all pass . Same-same !

[MaeJoMTB]

In the UK I was expected to teach comprehensive (high school) classes of up to 35 pupils.

So I can't see why it should be any different here.

[zzo]

In the US I taught third year primary to sixth year. 32 was the normal number of kids.

It was a good number. But, there was no noise from outside, and the kids were quiet.

I taught three days in Thailand. The inner patio always had a PE group playing and screaming.

There were 50 students in the class. There was no learning going on.

Most schools here, that I walk past, are very noisy. It's sad.

[Eddy B]

I am teaching in a college at the moment and the class sizes very depending what subject I am teaching. One class only has 9 students and it is bliss as you get to know them and their individual personalities more and this helps when teaching. My largest class is about 35 students and again it is manageable. Anything 40+ is a bit of a nightmare. It also depends on the age of the students as well. The younger the students the smaller the class should be, so that you can focus more on the individual student. As the students get older the class size is fine to increase but not at an impossible number like 40+. Another thing which I have noticed is that the actual facilities available in the class, such as projectors, overheads and internet access helps when teaching classes.

[recom273]

I teach 50-55-60 students pretty much all the time now, I don't know wether the college expects the kids to learn too much, we do our best, the lessons are fun and after a couple of years of stability most of the classes are learning to behave.

I also conduct admission interviews for specialist industry programs for kids from all over the province. The difference between students who have had a western teacher against the ones that only have local teachers is huge - not just English ability but the way they conduct themselves.

[Utley]

I teach 50-55-60 students pretty much all the time now, I don't know wether the college expects the kids to learn too much, we do our best, the lessons are fun and after a couple of years of stability most of the classes are learning to behave.

I also conduct admission interviews for specialist industry programs for kids from all over the province. The difference between students who have had a western teacher against the ones that only have local teachers is huge - not just English ability but the way they conduct themselves.

Could you expound on that last statement please? That is something I have always suspected but to which I have never heard anyone attest.

[sawadee1947]

Can you provide an acceptable quality level of teaching

depends on how you describe "acceptable". It might be acceptable for Thai teachers or lazy farang teachers. And on your own education if any.

[sawadee1947]

In all, I see placing the blame elsewhere, but no mention of poor quality teachers--both foreign and Thai.

Sure the system, the curricula, the classrooms, the students, the parents, the administrators, the learning material, the earning ethic all suck; but does no one think better teachers would help?

I agree with you. All depends on the quality of teachers no matter what country you will mention. And I suppose there are many "hobby" teachers from western countries here pretending to be qualified. I am not talking about teachers sent by your government to their schools (American School, German School, British School aso.) I reckon to meet a higher standard of education there.

[recom273]

I teach 50-55-60 students pretty much all the time now, I don't know wether the college expects the kids to learn too much, we do our best, the lessons are fun and after a couple of years of stability most of the classes are learning to behave.

I also conduct admission interviews for specialist industry programs for kids from all over the province. The difference between students who have had a western teacher against the ones that only have local teachers is huge - not just English ability but the way they conduct themselves.

Could you expound on that last statement please? That is something I have always suspected but to which I have never heard anyone attest.

I live in the Deep South, I teach at a regular vocational school but I also teach corporate classes for the petroleum industry, we also get hired out to conduct admission interviews for local colleges who run foundation courses for the petroleum industry.

In the south, Hat Yai / Songkhla city is pretty much the last outpost for teachers, yet there are colleges in Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat. As far as I know, not many positions are taken / open to western teachers in those provinces - due to safety and due to funding.

I give the interviewees 10 minutes of questions "how are you ..", "where do you see yourself in ..", "where have you been studying", and a picture with basic prepositions.

The guys who attend the interviews from say, Surat Thani and Songkhla provinces have a basic understanding - some of the interviewees are kids that sit in the middle rows of my 60 strong classes, others have come from schools or Tec's where friends teach. They have a listening ability way above the students from the other provinces, even when it comes to "how are you today?" Some students don't understand and don't even have an answer.

In these cases a Thai colleague will explain the question in Thai and prompt for an English answer, they often have no ability to answer.

Not only their academic ability, but the way they conduct themselves they appear comfortable - there is no fear or amazement of speaking to a westerner, whereas provincial kids will shake or slide off their seat to the point where you just see their head above the table ( I kid you not ). We don't just give pass cards to kids with ability we also try and judge potential in these kids, confidence goes a long way in these judgments, not only from me but Thai colleagues.

It's no scientific test but when I leave these interviews, I come away with a good feeling that "wow, the teaching team at my place does actually do a good job" a team made up of Thais and western teachers - for sure its not only the kids that benefit from our involvement. It's the Thai teachers too.

Lastly, I also come into contact with the workforce group, at 18-20 years old these guys are on the fast track to the highest paid jobs, these guys are truly bilingual. They mostly come from the northern provinces or BKK, very very rarely Issan or any provinces between Petchuap and Surat. This fits studies of parental background and financial situation have an effect on students ability to learn English, but also there has to be contact with western speakers as these guys are just too good.

It's an interesting situation, we often suggest Thais inability to speak English down to the fact that it's no use to them in future employment, but down here the power station projects/oil/gas/petroleum industry employs western managment and technical staff and there is a real need and incentive to speak English.

Hope that answers your question.

[DavisH]

Mixed ability classes are another factor holding back the students.

Actually it doesn't hold better ones back provided the class is managed properly. I've taught streamed classes for many years. Teaching the lower sets is very difficult as there are few strong students in those classes. They are very difficult to manage - mind you I'm talking about 2 classes, not 13 streamed classes like in a government school. When we went back to mixed ability classes (20-30 per class), I assessed them and then grouped them into roughly equal mixed ability subgroups. This essentially split all the weaker students and allocated them to groups. I think chose group leaders and then made all the students in the group accountable to the group itself. When the students were streamed last yer, there were at least 15 of them failing by the end of the year. From the same class, I now have about 4 failing. There has been great improvement and the better students have not been held back. They seem happy with the system too.

I've no idea how this would work in a class of 40 more more though, especially if there are many weak students in the class. My hat goes off to anyone who can effectively teach such classes. Thai teachers can manage their class but their methods are quite oppressive and not conducive to good learning.

[Utley]

I teach 50-55-60 students pretty much all the time now, I don't know wether the college expects the kids to learn too much, we do our best, the lessons are fun and after a couple of years of stability most of the classes are learning to behave.

I also conduct admission interviews for specialist industry programs for kids from all over the province. The difference between students who have had a western teacher against the ones that only have local teachers is huge - not just English ability but the way they conduct themselves.

Could you expound on that last statement please? That is something I have always suspected but to which I have never heard anyone attest.

I live in the Deep South, I teach at a regular vocational school but I also teach corporate classes for the petroleum industry, we also get hired out to conduct admission interviews for local colleges who run foundation courses for the petroleum industry.

In the south, Hat Yai / Songkhla city is pretty much the last outpost for teachers, yet there are colleges in Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat. As far as I know, not many positions are taken / open to western teachers in those provinces - due to safety and due to funding.

I give the interviewees 10 minutes of questions "how are you ..", "where do you see yourself in ..", "where have you been studying", and a picture with basic prepositions.

The guys who attend the interviews from say, Surat Thani and Songkhla provinces have a basic understanding - some of the interviewees are kids that sit in the middle rows of my 60 strong classes, others have come from schools or Tec's where friends teach. They have a listening ability way above the students from the other provinces, even when it comes to "how are you today?" Some students don't understand and don't even have an answer.

In these cases a Thai colleague will explain the question in Thai and prompt for an English answer, they often have no ability to answer.

Not only their academic ability, but the way they conduct themselves they appear comfortable - there is no fear or amazement of speaking to a westerner, whereas provincial kids will shake or slide off their seat to the point where you just see their head above the table ( I kid you not ). We don't just give pass cards to kids with ability we also try and judge potential in these kids, confidence goes a long way in these judgments, not only from me but Thai colleagues.

It's no scientific test but when I leave these interviews, I come away with a good feeling that "wow, the teaching team at my place does actually do a good job" a team made up of Thais and western teachers - for sure its not only the kids that benefit from our involvement. It's the Thai teachers too.

Lastly, I also come into contact with the workforce group, at 18-20 years old these guys are on the fast track to the highest paid jobs, these guys are truly bilingual. They mostly come from the northern provinces or BKK, very very rarely Issan or any provinces between Petchuap and Surat. This fits studies of parental background and financial situation have an effect on students ability to learn English, but also there has to be contact with western speakers as these guys are just too good.

It's an interesting situation, we often suggest Thais inability to speak English down to the fact that it's no use to them in future employment, but down here the power station projects/oil/gas/petroleum industry employs western managment and technical staff and there is a real need and incentive to speak English.

Hope that answers your question.

Thank you - it did answer my question. Yours was probably the most insightful posting on the subject of schools in Thailand that I have read.

[Rhys]

Simon 43,

Sadly, this is a dead horse issue. Why--- school economics...among other things.. School officials, administrators, looking at the biggest bang for the buck...

At a certain university, English ... General education version... class size.. 2 rotations of 1000 students..... plus... 1 hour lecture, actually comes down to 40 minutes as some students cannot remember the way to the lecture hall..this is given during the beginning of the week.

Oh, this is really a productive class because students can sleep, use their cell phone, and at least do their homework for other classes.

Then the students are broken into 65-100 student classes, given once a week for 2 hours.

Rationale.. the better use of teacher resources....sad state of affairs or resourceful.

However, at sometimes, the system works, for those who wish to attend class, will pass... mystery students do fail.. but every opportunity is given to the student to pass.

Then again... at this same university that has a 15 student class roll minimum, 5 students can be accepted on the whim of the teacher and student class level- seniors are given help to graduate.

Oh..really the kicker...the teacher who came up with this system was awarded.. Teacher of the year...5555

WE do the best in spite of the challenges.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Rhys

[maewang99]

there's other things that need to be much higher in consideration. for Thailand, quite frankly. speaking with words straight shooting, forgive me there is no other way to put it... all education systems are somewhat indocrinal but some much more so. the more indocrinal... the less class size is on the radar of the folks in charge of things. of course, they will use the "Thailand Is A Poor Country" routine. but in fact they are spending quite a bit of money on Education. if it's a public school, they were, at one time not many years ago that I know, not even making rudimentary checks of employment references and credentials of their contract teachers, and waived immigration background checks but only for public schools... which is a really big whopper as their are hundreds of public schools in Thailand and most other avenues for employment as well as a visa are much more difficult to get. and also at one time they were even issuing a "teachers license" based on a 2 week "Thai culture" class... only temporarily, of course. that was many years ago, I am sure by now they require some kind of degree and some teacher training such as the TEFOL or TESOL, or even perhaps by now an Ed. degree and are not still just waiving background checks and hiring just anyone who walks in the door or signs up with an agency type thing. does your school with the small classroom size, does it use easy to quickly score multiple choice tests? then forget your classroom size nonsense. if assessments are based on A,B,C,D tests, which should only be used to check on how the class is progressing during the semester, such as in their reading and other home based work, and certainly not for assessing the students, or, just as importantly, the teachers results for the school year. I can't think of anything more important even for those of us who don't even have kids in Thailand, let alone those that do or might have them.. and cannot afford private schooling of the highest caliper from A to Z. and THAT is about a lot more than classroom sizes, no matter how big or small they are

Edited December 29, 2015 by maewang99