SURVEY: Do you believe the 2 Burmese found guilty of the Koh Tao Murders are guilty?

[Artisi]

I believe they are guilty...DNA is hard to dispute.....

However botched the investigation turned out to be DNA does not lie....

The DNA would prove what? Rape? Certainly not murder.

So the DNA proves rape...OK so those boys raped and someone else came along and killed the two...

I guess it is possible...

DNA may prove sex, but it does not prove rape or murder.

I've said the very same on a number of occasions, it certainly doesn't sink into the " hang them high" brigade..

[beano2274]

Two suspects found too quickly, and Thailand keeps its position as a good tourist destination.

I do believe that the Burmese Government will shortly get two Thais in Burma and accuse them of something, a bit of tit for tat.

I see people going on about Rape, but was Rape proven, what if her and her BF had been having sex on the beach, someone saw them and as it looked bad decided to take action of their own.

Edited January 1, 2016 by beano2274

[mommysboy]

I do feel they are implicated in some way, but feel some others should have been in the dock too.

[silverado]

Was the DNA evidence just on the cigarettes (evidence of the suspects being at the crime scene) or actually on the victims (more indicative of being involved in the crime)?

Yes, DNA found on Hannah (bite mark to her right breast/nipple) was a positive match to Wai Phyo.

DNA inside her rectum was a match to both Zaw Lin & Wai Phyo and the DNA inside her vagina was a match Wai Phyo.

"Touch DNA" doesn't always transfer. Dr. Porntip gave examples in Court as to why the defendants' DNA wasn't on the murder weapon. It's the same case with other low-level/touch DNA on evidence, such as clothing. It's doesn't always transfer and is easily degraded (heat, humidity, UV, etc.). And if found, it doesn't indicate when the DNA was deposited (before, after, or during the crime).

then , there were bite marks now ??? are you sure that somebody much more trustworthythan rtp investigators/prosecutors didn't tell the opposite ??????

Edited January 1, 2016 by silverado

[Khun Han]

Was the DNA evidence just on the cigarettes (evidence of the suspects being at the crime scene) or actually on the victims (more indicative of being involved in the crime)?

Yes, DNA found on Hannah (bite mark to her right breast/nipple) was a positive match to Wai Phyo.

DNA inside her rectum was a match to both Zaw Lin & Wai Phyo and the DNA inside her vagina was a match Wai Phyo.

"Touch DNA" doesn't always transfer. Dr. Porntip gave examples in Court as to why the defendants' DNA wasn't on the murder weapon. It's the same case with other low-level/touch DNA on evidence, such as clothing. It's doesn't always transfer and is easily degraded (heat, humidity, UV, etc.). And if found, it doesn't indicate when the DNA was deposited (before, after, or during the crime).

then , there were bite marks now ??? are you sure that somebody much more trustworthythan rtp investigators/prosecutors didn't tell the opposite ??????

The British coroner didn't find any bite marks. It was one of the discrepancies that concerned her so much that she made a special dispensation to release her findings to the trial.

[mrrizzla]

Hannah was sodomized? First I've heard of it.

Also the gruesome crime scene photos.... I don't recall seeing a bite mark.

[Moonsterk]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

That's right. take out the dna. Take out the bungled investigation. It is the b2s own story that is off with the fairies. They went swimming for no apparent reason at 1 o'clock in the morning in the rain. They went back to their room leaving many things behind. Including a guitar which is a red flag in itself. Some say the guitar was left at ac bar. So what was the urgency to go pick it up at 5am. Some say it was left at the beach. to leave that guitar on the beach, they must have been in a huge hurry to get outta there. If they were going back to ac bar to get the guitar, why did Wei Phyo then go back to the beach. Oh that's right, he left his shoes there for some reason. But the most damning thing is this telephone that he miraculously found at 5am. I supported their story of the night time activities completely. It was slightly strange, but plausible. But when you add the 5am activities , By god you would need to be a good defense lawyer to explain that away. I do not support the death penalty, though people should understand that in Thailand it is always commutted to life. They will receive the kings pardon of 5 years every year. They will spend about 20 years in prison. Then begin their lives again. Hannah will not have that privilege, neither will David.

What? Please provide a link to where you are getting all these snippets of supposition. Raining especially, please.

[Moonsterk]

I believe they are guilty...DNA is hard to dispute.....

However botched the investigation turned out to be DNA does not lie....

The DNA would prove what? Rape? Certainly not murder.

So the DNA proves rape...OK so those boys raped and someone else came along and killed the two...

I guess it is possible...

DNA may prove sex, but it does not prove rape or murder.

It's the chain of custody for samples that is suspect.

It is a one page summary, with hand written notations and corrections on a document outlining DNA tests that convicts that is suspect.

It is lack of correct police procedures throughout the initial investigatory proceedings.

All this supposition and elaborations on mistaken, thrice translated news clippings is just opinion based on pure crapology.

[Moonsterk]

Was the DNA evidence just on the cigarettes (evidence of the suspects being at the crime scene) or actually on the victims (more indicative of being involved in the crime)?

Yes, DNA found on Hannah (bite mark to her right breast/nipple) was a positive match to Wai Phyo.

DNA inside her rectum was a match to both Zaw Lin & Wai Phyo and the DNA inside her vagina was a match Wai Phyo.

"Touch DNA" doesn't always transfer. Dr. Porntip gave examples in Court as to why the defendants' DNA wasn't on the murder weapon. It's the same case with other low-level/touch DNA on evidence, such as clothing. It's doesn't always transfer and is easily degraded (heat, humidity, UV, etc.). And if found, it doesn't indicate when the DNA was deposited (before, after, or during the crime).

then , there were bite marks now ??? are you sure that somebody much more trustworthythan rtp investigators/prosecutors didn't tell the opposite ??????

The British coroner didn't find any bite marks. It was one of the discrepancies that concerned her so much that she made a special dispensation to release her findings to the trial.

Surat Thani Teachers... post was removed and rightfully so, complete misinformation from someone with vested interests no doubt to see this case go away.

[cyberfarang]

I put this in the same league as, did the Americans really land on the moon? Not able to vote because I don`t know.

My thoughts on this are that even if the 2 men did not actually murder the couple, that they had a hand in this somehow, maybe part of the gang or were on the scene at the time. I think if they are still found guilty the majority won`t believe it, and if found not guilty or set free for not being enough evidence against them, then people will still have doubts. All I can say is, that I hope 2 completely innocent young men are not put to death.

[Scott]

Posts in violation of Fair Use Policy have been removed along with replies.

[Wilsonandson]

No, they are scapegoats! Why do I believe this? Cause there wouldn't be such a controversy if they were guilty.

[BritTim]

I do not believe Zaw Lin was anywhere near the crime scene at the time of the murders. I find it conceivable that Way Phyo could have been involved, but there would have needed to be others (probably three or more).

[BritTim]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

That's right. take out the dna. Take out the bungled investigation. It is the b2s own story that is off with the fairies. They went swimming for no apparent reason at 1 o'clock in the morning in the rain. They went back to their room leaving many things behind. Including a guitar which is a red flag in itself. Some say the guitar was left at ac bar. So what was the urgency to go pick it up at 5am. Some say it was left at the beach. to leave that guitar on the beach, they must have been in a huge hurry to get outta there. If they were going back to ac bar to get the guitar, why did Wei Phyo then go back to the beach. Oh that's right, he left his shoes there for some reason. But the most damning thing is this telephone that he miraculously found at 5am. I supported their story of the night time activities completely. It was slightly strange, but plausible. But when you add the 5am activities , By god you would need to be a good defense lawyer to explain that away. I do not support the death penalty, though people should understand that in Thailand it is always commutted to life. They will receive the kings pardon of 5 years every year. They will spend about 20 years in prison. Then begin their lives again. Hannah will not have that privilege, neither will David.

I have a lot of respect for your opinion because I know you have looked at the case closely and went from a belief in the Burmese kids' innocence to belief in their guilt. However, I have seen no convincing evidence that Zaw Lin was anywhere near the crime scene at the time of the murders. The facts are really muddled, but it does seem likely Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo were back in their room for quite a while before Wai Phyo seemingly left again. I personally believe Wai Phyo is covering up for the real attackers based on self preservation, but he may also have been involved.

The phone is damning evidence on the fact of it. I am sure it was very convincing to the Miller family. However, the Millers were given the phone's identification information by the police. Do we know it came from the same phone that was smashed by Wai Phyo's friend? Would Wai Phyo have been stupid enough to take the phone in the first place knowing it was owned by a murder victim?

Finally, can the lack of proper investigation of all the evidence be put down purely to incompetence? If the RTP knew the Burmese were guilty, why not involve forensic experts? Why not produce chain of custody documentation for the DNA? Why produce DNA evidence dated later than the announcement of the results? Why not show all the crime scene photos? Why not find all the CCTV footage, not just cherry picked excerpts?

[StealthEnergiser]

Was the DNA evidence just on the cigarettes (evidence of the suspects being at the crime scene) or actually on the victims (more indicative of being involved in the crime)?

Yes, DNA found on Hannah (bite mark to her right breast/nipple) was a positive match to Wai Phyo.

DNA inside her rectum was a match to both Zaw Lin & Wai Phyo and the DNA inside her vagina was a match Wai Phyo.

"Touch DNA" doesn't always transfer. Dr. Porntip gave examples in Court as to why the defendants' DNA wasn't on the murder weapon. It's the same case with other low-level/touch DNA on evidence, such as clothing. It's doesn't always transfer and is easily degraded (heat, humidity, UV, etc.). And if found, it doesn't indicate when the DNA was deposited (before, after, or during the crime).

then , there were bite marks now ??? are you sure that somebody much more trustworthythan rtp investigators/prosecutors didn't tell the opposite ??????

The British coroner didn't find any bite marks. It was one of the discrepancies that concerned her so much that she made a special dispensation to release her findings to the trial.

One of the many discrepancies that concern many people

[greenchair]

I do not believe Zaw Lin was anywhere near the crime scene at the time of the murders. I find it conceivable that Way Phyo could have been involved, but there would have needed to be others (probably three or more).

Their stories are quite different. Zaw Lin did go for the late swim, he did sit on the log near the scene, he then went back and went to sleep. His dna was found in the victim, but it was mixed and a lot of controversy about that.

His story is why most of us believed they were both innocent as it really doesn't seem like anything was done wrong. Just wrong place wrong time and very controversial mixed dna in 1 place.

Wei Phyo story is waaaaaay different from that. And quite frankly Muang Muang is more of a suspect in my mind.

Wei Phyo rode on the back of Zaw Lin story and that's what the defense allowed us all to believe. That's why I no longer trust the defense in any way, because they covered up so much just the same as Wei Phyo.

They should have had separate lawyers and asked for separate court cases. Zaw Lin may have won.

[metisdead]

Although clearly I am speculating about the last statement.

Speculation post has been removed.

[stephenterry]

I do not believe Zaw Lin was anywhere near the crime scene at the time of the murders. I find it conceivable that Way Phyo could have been involved, but there would have needed to be others (probably three or more).

Their stories are quite different. Zaw Lin did go for the late swim, he did sit on the log near the scene, he then went back and went to sleep. His dna was found in the victim, but it was mixed and a lot of controversy about that.

His story is why most of us believed they were both innocent as it really doesn't seem like anything was done wrong. Just wrong place wrong time and very controversial mixed dna in 1 place.

Wei Phyo story is waaaaaay different from that. And quite frankly Muang Muang is more of a suspect in my mind.

Wei Phyo rode on the back of Zaw Lin story and that's what the defense allowed us all to believe. That's why I no longer trust the defense in any way, because they covered up so much just the same as Wei Phyo.

They should have had separate lawyers and asked for separate court cases. Zaw Lin may have won.

Why don't you go and visit them in prison and clear up all your misconceptions of what happened. It's easy to write damning indictment here, but not so easy face to face.

[greenchair]

I do not believe Zaw Lin was anywhere near the crime scene at the time of the murders. I find it conceivable that Way Phyo could have been involved, but there would have needed to be others (probably three or more).

Their stories are quite different. Zaw Lin did go for the late swim, he did sit on the log near the scene, he then went back and went to sleep. His dna was found in the victim, but it was mixed and a lot of controversy about that.

His story is why most of us believed they were both innocent as it really doesn't seem like anything was done wrong. Just wrong place wrong time and very controversial mixed dna in 1 place.

Wei Phyo story is waaaaaay different from that. And quite frankly Muang Muang is more of a suspect in my mind.

Wei Phyo rode on the back of Zaw Lin story and that's what the defense allowed us all to believe. That's why I no longer trust the defense in any way, because they covered up so much just the same as Wei Phyo.

They should have had separate lawyers and asked for separate court cases. Zaw Lin may have won.

Why don't you go and visit them in prison and clear up all your misconceptions of what happened. It's easy to write damning indictment here, but not so easy face to face.

No need it is from the the court documents of their testimony. Unless they changed their minds and want to change their story "again "

[CockneyGit]

These two are innocent. That is 100% FACT!

Speak to people in Koh Tao.

[MorristheRunt]

Not guilty on the murder charge

Guilty .. Assisting murderers .

The two accused know who comitted this crime, but they know they are dead if they talk.

[boomerangutang]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

That's right. take out the dna. Take out the bungled investigation. It is the b2s own story that is off with the fairies. They went swimming for no apparent reason at 1 o'clock in the morning in the rain. They went back to their room leaving many things behind. Including a guitar which is a red flag in itself. Some say the guitar was left at ac bar. So what was the urgency to go pick it up at 5am. Some say it was left at the beach. to leave that guitar on the beach, they must have been in a huge hurry to get outta there. If they were going back to ac bar to get the guitar, why did Wei Phyo then go back to the beach. Oh that's right, he left his shoes there for some reason. But the most damning thing is this telephone that he miraculously found at 5am. I supported their story of the night time activities completely. It was slightly strange, but plausible. But when you add the 5am activities , By god you would need to be a good defense lawyer to explain that away. I do not support the death penalty, though people should understand that in Thailand it is always commutted to life. They will receive the kings pardon of 5 years every year. They will spend about 20 years in prison. Then begin their lives again. Hannah will not have that privilege, neither will David.

GC, in a post on another thread you claimed the B2 went swimming at 2 am. Above you claim it was 1 am. Either way, it doesn't fit at all with wishful thinking that they went in the water to wash off blood, because the crime took place close to 5 am. How can someone wash off blood from a crime that's 3 to 4 hours in the future?

DNA may prove sex, but it does not prove rape or murder.

Not according the the self-appointed Thai PM. He said if the DNA matches, the two did the crime. For those watching all the evidence closely, there is no strong indication that there was any semen taken from inside Hannah. If so, where are swabs? All RTP/prosecution assertions about DNA are hearsay. There is no tangible proof re; the DNA trail, except the hoe. And Pontip showed that the B2's DNA was not on the hoe. In contrast, RTP forensics could only find Hannah's DNA on the hoe - yet, RTP claim the hoe was the weapon used on David. RTP forensics also don't mention the multiple stab wounds to David. They only mention the blow to the top of his head. In any halfway decent court of law, this case would have been thrown out for a number of blatant reasons.

Edited March 3, 2016 by boomerangutang

[boomerangutang]

Not guilty on the murder charge

Guilty .. Assisting murderers .

The two accused know who comitted this crime, but they know they are dead if they talk.

You're doing what all the other 'hang-em-high' crowd are doing: lumping the two together as if they're Siamese twins. Only one of the two (Wei) mentioned finding a phone in the sand. The other, Zaw, was quite likely snoozing in his room as at least 3 people claim (Wei, MM, and Zaw himself). One of both may know who committed the crime, but consider this: They may have been threatened with them AND THEIR FAMILIES getting killed if the truth came out. At least Thai authorities are not threatening to kill the suspects' families. I know how Mafia-like people get things done, ....do you?

I also know how a very rich Thai headman would spare no expense in keeping his darling and favorite son from being executed. If a Headman is worth a billion baht, he would pay 90% of that to keep his young son from getting executed. I doubt the H's wife would argue with that.

[boomerangutang]

These two are innocent. That is 100% FACT!

Speak to people in Koh Tao.

If you've spoken to people on Ko Tao, or have heard what they say about the crime, please share it with us. Or did they make you promise to not tell anyone?

[MorristheRunt]

Not guilty on the murder charge

Guilty .. Assisting murderers .

The two accused know who comitted this crime, but they know they are dead if they talk.

You're doing what all the other 'hang-em-high' crowd are doing: lumping the two together as if they're Siamese twins. Only one of the two (Wei) mentioned finding a phone in the sand. The other, Zaw, was quite likely snoozing in his room as at least 3 people claim (Wei, MM, and Zaw himself). One of both may know who committed the crime, but consider this: They may have been threatened with them AND THEIR FAMILIES getting killed if the truth came out. At least Thai authorities are not threatening to kill the suspects' families. I know how Mafia-like people get things done, ....do you?

I also know how a very rich Thai headman would spare no expense in keeping his darling and favorite son from being executed. If a Headman is worth a billion baht, he would pay 90% of that to keep his young son from getting executed. I doubt the H's wife would argue with that.

The PM and Ex Chief of Police have both stated publicly the Burmese did it, nothing will change the verdict NOTHING.

Also I don't believe the head man has the total power to silence everyone....Not one person has come forward NOT ONE!!

David's and Hanna's friends total silence!!!

[boomerangutang]

11.65 not guilty votes for each guilty vote. For those saying 'guilty' are they saying they both raped and murdered Hannah and murdered David?

If it's something less than that, then they should vote not guilty, because saying they're guilty is, (according to Thai authorities which are prosecuting them) the whole enchilada.

If a voter thinks they're only guilty of being an accessory to the crime, or one of them stealing a mobile phone, then the voter must say 'not guilty.' It's all or nothing, folks.

[boomerangutang]

Not guilty on the murder charge

Guilty .. Assisting murderers .

The two accused know who comitted this crime, but they know they are dead if they talk.

You're doing what all the other 'hang-em-high' crowd are doing: lumping the two together as if they're Siamese twins. Only one of the two (Wei) mentioned finding a phone in the sand. The other, Zaw, was quite likely snoozing in his room as at least 3 people claim (Wei, MM, and Zaw himself). One of both may know who committed the crime, but consider this: They may have been threatened with them AND THEIR FAMILIES getting killed if the truth came out. At least Thai authorities are not threatening to kill the suspects' families. I know how Mafia-like people get things done, ....do you?

I also know how a very rich Thai headman would spare no expense in keeping his darling and favorite son from being executed. If a Headman is worth a billion baht, he would pay 90% of that to keep his young son from getting executed. I doubt the H's wife would argue with that.

The PM and Ex Chief of Police have both stated publicly the Burmese did it, nothing will change the verdict NOTHING.

Also I don't believe the head man has the total power to silence everyone....Not one person has come forward NOT ONE!!

David's and Hanna's friends total silence!!!

Good points Morris. We probably agree on a lot re; the crime. I'm not sure about 'total power' re; the Headman over RTP top brass. However, dangling hundreds of millions of baht in someone's face can have an effect, particularly on a Thai police officer who's about to retire. If a very rich person wanted to influence the investigation (or non-investigation), who would be the best person to bribe? Answer: the chief investigator who, in this case, happened to be the Chief of Police and who also put himself in charge of the investigation at around the time the H's family members were permanently dismissed (never to be mentioned again) and the scapegoats rounded up. After the reenactment, there was absolutely no investigation. None whatsoever from October 2014 onwards.

Every Thai knows instinctively, never to cross a powerful person on a serious topic. The consequences can be a quick death. Anyone who had the temerity to speak the truth - which might implicate Mon or Nomsod, knows a mysterious un-investigated death could be quick in coming. There have been 3 mysterious unsolved backpacker deaths on Ko Tao since the double murder. There are indications of at least two other mysterious deaths, one of whom is said to have been the woman beach cleaner who first notified Mon of the bodies. Anyone with any data as to her whereabouts, please let us know. So many mysterious deaths on a tiny island are not good. There could be more coming. Who's next?

[metisdead]

Since the investigation into this case has returned to the beginning again with speculating assumptions, this topic is now closed.