British man found dead on Koh Tao

[Moonsterk]

Moonsterk, on 07 Feb 2016 - 04:50, said:Moonsterk, on 07 Feb 2016 - 04:50, said:

IslandLover, on 06 Feb 2016 - 14:56, said:IslandLover, on 06 Feb 2016 - 14:56, said:

alanrchase, on 06 Feb 2016 - 11:06, said:alanrchase, on 06 Feb 2016 - 11:06, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but the coroner's verdict as reported by a previous poster should only be taken as an opinion? There will be an inquest to follow?

I would think so. The British Coroner is still waiting for the autopsy and toxicology reports from Thailand. The family has been told this could take several months. It is not without precedent. The same thing happened in the case of Hannah Witheridge, and another British tourist who died in Thailand in 2013. This is far from over. Apart from that, I have heard the police investigation in Koh Tao is still ongoing.

Really? Cause I heard the Thai police have issued their declaration-accidental drowning due to misadventure from impairment of judgement. The case is closed and sent the docs with Miller's body, weeks ago and the UK coroner has no reason whatsoever to declare the death anything but an accident. All wounds and bruising are consistent with a tumble from several meters high, an encounter with barbed wire, and hitting the head with sufficient force on the edge of the pool to render unconsciousness, and possibly other parts of the body were also bruised, and then death from drowning.

Yep, that's what I heard.

Yes, I've heard the police investigation on Koh Tao is still ongoing from a very reliable source (and I'm not about to reveal who). It is also alluded to in Nichola Gissing's facebook post. It also states as FACT in that post that the British Coroner is still waiting for the Thai autopsy and toxicology reports (although no mention has been made of the Thai police report). Therefore the case is NOT closed as far as the British Coroner is concerned, and the relevant documents were NOT sent with Luke Miller's body weeks ago.

The investigation is into who may have sold drugs to young Master Luke, and granted there may be charges in relation to his death, but that is not murder. That is why the case is still open.

Seems he might have been using both drugs and alcohol, certainly commonplace enough by young backpackers in the region, but to simply ignore it as it doesn't support the murder theories is ridiculous.

As for the UK coroner disagreeing with something or another, the usual presumptive mutterings... I believe the CoD as drowning is agreed upon, with no further evidence pointing toward anything other than accidental. If such evidence has come to light, I feel quite sure the LMWM supporters would have not only have contacted all news media, but shouted it to the four winds.

There is not one news report past January 12th. All responsible media who only publish what they have fact checked have laid this story to rest, as should Luke's friends.

Sorry but I'm apt to not really take anything posted on Facebook as anything near a fact. My opinion of someone's true motives leading this parade of presumption is not complimentary and I'm not the only one having this thought.

[Moonsterk]

Applicable bullet points from one of many outlets offering international repatriation of mortal remains into the UK:

Embalming and hygiene treatment in accordance with airline/transport regulation.

Mortuary facilities for religious washing etc

It might help the board if you confirm that yours is just another unqualified opinion rather than presenting it as fact.

Sorry not getting the point of your post regarding embalming. If you want to disagree with me, you are free to do so.If you wish to convince others I think it is your burden to present why you disagree.

The board needs no help, everyone is free to assess the points presented, the manner in which they are presented and make up their own minds.

Yes, all my opinions- are my opinions.

[KunMatt]

Wow, 46 pages of people bickering about nothing and we still know exactly as much as we did 46 pages ago. This seems like it's been a good use of everyone's time. Well done everyone.

[mcfish]

Wow, 46 pages of people bickering about nothing and we still know exactly as much as we did 46 pages ago. This seems like it's been a good use of everyone's time. Well done everyone.

You do realize you just added one to the tally?

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[JLCrab]

Wow, 46 pages of people bickering about nothing and we still know exactly as much as we did 46 pages ago. This seems like it's been a good use of everyone's time. Well done everyone.

No -- we now know that Luke Miller wasn't tall so he wasn't one of the rescuing 'tall guys' mentioned on 'Bulldog' AD's page on "Casting doubts on Luke Miller's 'Drowning'" 15 JAN 2016 web page.

Edited February 12, 2016 by JLCrab

[Mooner]

Amazing the lack of cctv on Ko Tao. What's the point of buying them if they are not in use( or only when it suits a certain chain of events).

I would guess there would be alot of burglarys happening there the last year with the lack of working cctv.

[SoiBiker]

Amazing the lack of cctv on Ko Tao.

It's amazing that anyone would expect a Thai island to be covered in CCTV cameras.

[Khun Han]

The main resort area of Koh Tao has CCTV almost everywhere. But it only seems to be useful when it fits the locals' narratives. The rest of the time it's either 'not working' or private property that can't be released.

[007cableguy]

For such a small island RTP Station a fair bit away from the capital they turn around dna results within 24 hours now that's Amazing !!

But the big boys at Met. Headquarters Bangkok takes a couple weeks for results (Spanish murder)

The Koh Tao plod are on the ball extracting dna results at lightning pace!!........Just saying like!

[Khun Han]

Suppose it depends on whether you want real DNA results or DNA results to order.

[TheLobster]

46 pages and we know this:

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with" Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

The verdict means the coroner confirms the death is suspicious, but was unable to reach any other verdicts open to them.

[Moonsterk]

46 pages and we know this:

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with" Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

The verdict means the coroner confirms the death is suspicious, but was unable to reach any other verdicts open to them.

Looks like Miller will be laid to rest, despite Gissing not being happy with it, next Monday. And still waiting for the report she also stated three weeks ago was to be made known Feb 4th " proving it was murder..

btw where is the family on all this They seem to be a bit absent in the conspiracy camp,

Disagree with your opinion, the coroner has simply stated the circumstances surrounding the drowning are unknown and so remains open. It is not any kind of validation of the suspicious scenario

From your own link;

"consider it likely that the majority of open verdicts are recorded in cases of suicide where the intent of the deceased could not be proved,^[2] although the verdict is recorded in many other circumstances."

Could not be proved what possessed Miller to climb around on a small building while intoxicated on alcohol and possibly drugs, too. Could not be proved that he lost his grip, or his footing as being inebriated is well documented to cause, and fell several meter bashing and bruising himself, getting cut on barbed wire and all other sort of injuries one can expect to have in such an occurrence. Could not be proved he bashed his head, and drowned.

[Moonsterk]

For such a small island RTP Station a fair bit away from the capital they turn around dna results within 24 hours now that's Amazing !!

But the big boys at Met. Headquarters Bangkok takes a couple weeks for results (Spanish murder)

The Koh Tao plod are on the ball extracting dna results at lightning pace!!........Just saying like!

Just saying like..... I suppose you are referencing the Koh Tao murders (for real murders)

While I have no doubts the Burmese lads were stitched up, there was far more of a turn around than 24 hours on the worker cheek samples and I doubt the police had the entire staff at the labs in on the conspiracy.

It was done by one or two lead investigators with switched, undocumented samples ( IMO.)

[Moonsterk]

Wow, 46 pages of people bickering about nothing and we still know exactly as much as we did 46 pages ago. This seems like it's been a good use of everyone's time. Well done everyone.

What good this sad case could have done was squandered in the wildly transparent publicity seeking conspiracy theory. What lesson could have been brought forth might have been; Be careful when you visit Thailand, just because you are on vacation is a free for all nation is no guarantee you will not be hurt or killed if you engage in foolish behavior.

And PS Don't publicly post on social media about using illegal drugs because your mother will be sick with worry, and it might work against you at a later date when strangers are debating if you caused your own demise.

[TheLobster]

46 pages and we know this:

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with" Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

The verdict means the coroner confirms the death is suspicious, but was unable to reach any other verdicts open to them.

Looks like Miller will be laid to rest, despite Gissing not being happy with it, next Monday. And still waiting for the report she also stated three weeks ago was to be made known Feb 4th " proving it was murder..

btw where is the family on all this They seem to be a bit absent in the conspiracy camp,

Disagree with your opinion, the coroner has simply stated the circumstances surrounding the drowning are unknown and so remains open. It is not any kind of validation of the suspicious scenario

From your own link;

"consider it likely that the majority of open verdicts are recorded in cases of suicide where the intent of the deceased could not be proved,^[2] although the verdict is recorded in many other circumstances."

Could not be proved what possessed Miller to climb around on a small building while intoxicated on alcohol and possibly drugs, too. Could not be proved that he lost his grip, or his footing as being inebriated is well documented to cause, and fell several meter bashing and bruising himself, getting cut on barbed wire and all other sort of injuries one can expect to have in such an occurrence. Could not be proved he bashed his head, and drowned.

It may be me but I do find you a little bit disrespectful 'despite Gissing' for example. A lot of your post also seems to be speculation but what the Thai police claim to be true?

Regarding the open verdict: Notable open verdicts

I can clearly see that you are looking to antagonise posters and get this forum closed (which has been achieved many times on Thaivisa regarding forums that put Koh Tao and the Archipelago in a bad light).

Edited February 17, 2016 by TheLobster

[Moonsterk]

46 pages and we know this:

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with" Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

The verdict means the coroner confirms the death is suspicious, but was unable to reach any other verdicts open to them.

Looks like Miller will be laid to rest, despite Gissing not being happy with it, next Monday. And still waiting for the report she also stated three weeks ago was to be made known Feb 4th " proving it was murder..

btw where is the family on all this They seem to be a bit absent in the conspiracy camp,

Disagree with your opinion, the coroner has simply stated the circumstances surrounding the drowning are unknown and so remains open. It is not any kind of validation of the suspicious scenario

From your own link;

"consider it likely that the majority of open verdicts are recorded in cases of suicide where the intent of the deceased could not be proved,^[2] although the verdict is recorded in many other circumstances."

Could not be proved what possessed Miller to climb around on a small building while intoxicated on alcohol and possibly drugs, too. Could not be proved that he lost his grip, or his footing as being inebriated is well documented to cause, and fell several meter bashing and bruising himself, getting cut on barbed wire and all other sort of injuries one can expect to have in such an occurrence. Could not be proved he bashed his head, and drowned.

It may be me but I do find you a little bit disrespectful 'despite Gissing' for example. A lot of your post also seems to be speculation but what the Thai police claim to be true?

Regarding the open verdict: Notable open verdicts

I can clearly see that you are looking to antagonise posters and get this forum closed (which has been achieved many times on Thaivisa regarding forums that put Koh Tao and the Archipelago in a bad light).

I'm really just having a debate based on posts here, and countering the assertion the man was murdered because there has not been (IMO) evidence presented to support it. I've read post after post of suppositions that are all easily countered with minimal objectivity and barest logic.

That would be the exact opposite of showing Koh tao in a bad light.

There was a prior post where Nichola Gissing is quoted she is not happy with the open verdict, and making claims Luke will not be buried under that finding which she is powerless to stop, despite her claims. That would be up to the family, who have announced next Monday is the funeral.

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with" Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

[smedly]

Yes, I've heard the police investigation on Koh Tao is still ongoing from a very reliable source (and I'm not about to reveal who). It is also alluded to in Nichola Gissing's facebook post. It also states as FACT in that post that the British Coroner is still waiting for the Thai autopsy and toxicology reports (although no mention has been made of the Thai police report). Therefore the case is NOT closed as far as the British Coroner is concerned, and the relevant documents were NOT sent with Luke Miller's body weeks ago.

Good news, also I'm sure the UK will be interested in seeing what the Thai autopsy report reveals and how much it contradicts the UK findings.

So the UK coroner has determined CoD was not drowning?

Sorry to disappoint you, what you'll likely get from the UK coroner, and it will concur with the Thai report is circumstances of death unknown- which will provide exactly zilch in proof Miller was murdered or otherwise met with a nefarious end. Of course the LMWM group will seize on this nothingness as more " evidence."

unfortunately you have it all backwards, in a sudden death (when a body is found dead) situation the onus is on the police to initially investigate - not to prove it was a murder but to prove it wasn't - and there is a difference, when the latter cannot be proven then that could trigger further investigation and onto a possible murder enquiry

initially everything will be done to rule out foul play, if police find injuries that cannot be explained from - for example - someone jumping into a swimming pool then that would/should raise enough interest to take it further. Thai Police had already closed this case before it got started with a theory that some people are questioning, the most obvious is how this young man ended up dead in a swimming pool, what raises further interest are the claimed bruises on his body that don't fit with the police theory, add to that the wall of silence and lack of cctv for most reasonable people raises some unanswered questions and makes the Thai Police version of events highly unlikely and suspicious, but of course it is unreasonable to think that the Thai Police would attempt to cover anything up - right ?

[kcirtapyelrah]

Yes, I've heard the police investigation on Koh Tao is still ongoing from a very reliable source (and I'm not about to reveal who). It is also alluded to in Nichola Gissing's facebook post. It also states as FACT in that post that the British Coroner is still waiting for the Thai autopsy and toxicology reports (although no mention has been made of the Thai police report). Therefore the case is NOT closed as far as the British Coroner is concerned, and the relevant documents were NOT sent with Luke Miller's body weeks ago.

Good news, also I'm sure the UK will be interested in seeing what the Thai autopsy report reveals and how much it contradicts the UK findings.

So the UK coroner has determined CoD was not drowning?

Sorry to disappoint you, what you'll likely get from the UK coroner, and it will concur with the Thai report is circumstances of death unknown- which will provide exactly zilch in proof Miller was murdered or otherwise met with a nefarious end. Of course the LMWM group will seize on this nothingness as more " evidence."

unfortunately you have it all backwards, in a sudden death (when a body is found dead) situation the onus is on the police to initially investigate - not to prove it was a murder but to prove it wasn't - and there is a difference, when the latter cannot be proven then that could trigger further investigation and onto a possible murder enquiry

initially everything will be done to rule out foul play, if police find injuries that cannot be explained from - for example - someone jumping into a swimming pool then that would/should raise enough interest to take it further. Thai Police had already closed this case before it got started with a theory that some people are questioning, the most obvious is how this young man ended up dead in a swimming pool, what raises further interest are the claimed bruises on his body that don't fit with the police theory, add to that the wall of silence and lack of cctv for most reasonable people raises some unanswered questions and makes the Thai Police version of events highly unlikely and suspicious, but of course it is unreasonable to think that the Thai Police would attempt to cover anything up - right ?

Your banging your head against a brick wall.

[Moonsterk]

Yes, I've heard the police investigation on Koh Tao is still ongoing from a very reliable source (and I'm not about to reveal who). It is also alluded to in Nichola Gissing's facebook post. It also states as FACT in that post that the British Coroner is still waiting for the Thai autopsy and toxicology reports (although no mention has been made of the Thai police report). Therefore the case is NOT closed as far as the British Coroner is concerned, and the relevant documents were NOT sent with Luke Miller's body weeks ago.

Good news, also I'm sure the UK will be interested in seeing what the Thai autopsy report reveals and how much it contradicts the UK findings.

So the UK coroner has determined CoD was not drowning?

Sorry to disappoint you, what you'll likely get from the UK coroner, and it will concur with the Thai report is circumstances of death unknown- which will provide exactly zilch in proof Miller was murdered or otherwise met with a nefarious end. Of course the LMWM group will seize on this nothingness as more " evidence."

unfortunately you have it all backwards, in a sudden death (when a body is found dead) situation the onus is on the police to initially investigate - not to prove it was a murder but to prove it wasn't - and there is a difference, when the latter cannot be proven then that could trigger further investigation and onto a possible murder enquiry

initially everything will be done to rule out foul play, if police find injuries that cannot be explained from - for example - someone jumping into a swimming pool then that would/should raise enough interest to take it further. Thai Police had already closed this case before it got started with a theory that some people are questioning, the most obvious is how this young man ended up dead in a swimming pool, what raises further interest are the claimed bruises on his body that don't fit with the police theory, add to that the wall of silence and lack of cctv for most reasonable people raises some unanswered questions and makes the Thai Police version of events highly unlikely and suspicious, but of course it is unreasonable to think that the Thai Police would attempt to cover anything up - right ?

I think police do that, sure when it suits them. But why would it suit them here? And really isn't their version of events perfectly logical and acceptable- if you stop putting assumptions of a " dive" onto it? (Please see E below.)

Here's police version as I understand it. A drunken man tumbled down a vertical wall where barbed wire was present, causing bruising and scratches, severely concussed his head and after falling, or rolling into the pool, drowned.

It is perfectly reasonable scenario, far more so than the murdered theories ( paraphrasing some posts I've seen on the FB page and private pages,) " by a European couple who then died themselves and washed up a Samui beach.." ( with not one report substantiating this) is beyond any reasonableness. It was all over the FB groups for a week, bodies of EU couple wash up without one media report to verify it.

Gissing also made claims a " UK Coroner" report to have been released Feb 4th that would " prove murder" which never materialised. These people have a real lack of understanding of the process. Hanna Witheridge's inquest report has just been released, it takes well over a year for these things to get out.

I think the traveling companions do believe Luke was murdered, but I do not believe them and here's why, IMO;

A ) Are not dependable and rational types which this situation exacerbated and they are being supported by others who are feeding into this gyre of presumptions. Some of the posts on the tribute page, and elsewhere are really beyond belief when anyone has dared to question their narrative of events.

Once in Bangkok, were hosted by, and had a lot of biased influence from Annie Hansen who has had her own incredibly bad experiences with Thai police in Surat Thani..( The Jack Hansen saga. )

C) Were getting mixed messages from police underlings as is well known to occur, they will spout off to anyone who'll listen their own theories.

D) Were getting erred communications from mistranslated info as is also fairly routine.

E) Upon viewing a battered body, and informed Luke drowned, the technical CoD, questioning this is understandable, but then were never able to step back and look at the police version of events with any impartiality. Instead, they followed presumptions of Luke's actions that dismissed the police version, the most absurd being; " He would never take a dive.... He would never take a dive alone without showing off for someone, .... the pool was deep enough to have taken a successful dive without hitting his head...."

On and on and on along those lines, which is evident on this thread, and even now in your last post.

Why seize on this " he wanted to have a dive.." as evidence? It isn't. No one knows what he was doing, police offer an opinion, probably half a dozen opinions which confused the companions and family as they stated in subsequent media reports, and that's all it is.

All these assumptions complete ignoring he was drinking all night- and there is video of him doing just that earlier ...that he certainly may have been doing more hallucinogenic and/ or other types of drugs, those reports are not known, and that he just might have decided to climb up on a DJ shack to have himself a nice cannonball into the pool, or play King of the Mountain, or whatever the reason, there is no way to ever know why, and no way to know if he fell from the top, or on the way up, or on the way down, but he fell he did-onto the pool edge, sustaining cuts and bruises, knocking himself out and drowning.

The real shame of all this is what Luke's mother must be enduring with all this murder rumour garbage. Her son had a tragic accident, which she will face the burial of in a few days, which should begin her healing process yet she has this complete put in front of her and for no reason whatsoever other than, well I reserve my opinion due to forum rules on libel of individuals.

I note she has not made any supporting statements to the murder theory, I hope she has realized the companions may well be completely wrong.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Moonsterk

[Si Thea01]

Yes, I've heard the police investigation on Koh Tao is still ongoing from a very reliable source (and I'm not about to reveal who). It is also alluded to in Nichola Gissing's facebook post. It also states as FACT in that post that the British Coroner is still waiting for the Thai autopsy and toxicology reports (although no mention has been made of the Thai police report). Therefore the case is NOT closed as far as the British Coroner is concerned, and the relevant documents were NOT sent with Luke Miller's body weeks ago.

Good news, also I'm sure the UK will be interested in seeing what the Thai autopsy report reveals and how much it contradicts the UK findings.

So the UK coroner has determined CoD was not drowning?

Sorry to disappoint you, what you'll likely get from the UK coroner, and it will concur with the Thai report is circumstances of death unknown- which will provide exactly zilch in proof Miller was murdered or otherwise met with a nefarious end. Of course the LMWM group will seize on this nothingness as more " evidence."

unfortunately you have it all backwards, in a sudden death (when a body is found dead) situation the onus is on the police to initially investigate - not to prove it was a murder but to prove it wasn't - and there is a difference, when the latter cannot be proven then that could trigger further investigation and onto a possible murder enquiry

initially everything will be done to rule out foul play, if police find injuries that cannot be explained from - for example - someone jumping into a swimming pool then that would/should raise enough interest to take it further. Thai Police had already closed this case before it got started with a theory that some people are questioning, the most obvious is how this young man ended up dead in a swimming pool, what raises further interest are the claimed bruises on his body that don't fit with the police theory, add to that the wall of silence and lack of cctv for most reasonable people raises some unanswered questions and makes the Thai Police version of events highly unlikely and suspicious, but of course it is unreasonable to think that the Thai Police would attempt to cover anything up - right ?

Unfortunately, you are not quite correct, maybe it's the way you have worded it, I don't know but in the case of a sudden or unexplained death of an individual, the agencies involved are initially tasked with determining the cause of death, not to prove or disprove anything, murder or otherwise. Once the cause has been determined then it is the evidence (circumstances/suspicion) gathered through this aspect of the inquiry that may trigger the need for a further investigation. Most investigators enter an investigation with an open mind and are certainly not tasked to do everything to rule out foul play. This situation will come to fruition during the normal course of the inquiry. To make such a statement highlights how you lack, not only investigatory knowledge but also the understanding of the protocols required to implement an investigation.

Now, I have no idea of how the RTP conducted their investigation but to fulfill the necessities required there is a direct need, with many of the deaths today having more and more civil as well as criminal implications, that a top-quality death-scene investigation is a must in any jurisdiction. Now, this may have or have not occurred, none of us know, we weren't there. However, as you seem to have a major insight into this matter I'm sure you can explain how well or how poorly the at-scene investigation was conducted by the RTP.

I see you refer to claimed bruising, that's a pleasant change as so many on here are taking it for granted that bruising was present and this has led them off on a tangent that cannot be proven by anything that has been discovered during the police inquiry and subsequent autopsy. The presence of bruising, as far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong, was raised by the two friends who alleged they saw and photographed these alleged injuries at the hospital, where the initial autopsy was carried out. You are basing your hypothesis on allegations proffered by two people and the fact that the deceased jumped into a pool. Why should the latter give rise to further investigations if an autopsy provides the cause of death? Are you intimating that those at the hospital have colluded with police to cover up some sinister incident?

What wall of silence? If you are referring to the friends, then yes, I agree, I believe they know a lot more than they are letting on. As for CCTV, this is not the be-all and end-all, as many on here will tell you it can be doctored. So it was not working, what does that prove, many are in this state and are of poor quality so to raise suspicion just because of this one aspect is being a little over-zealous in one's attempt to suggest this incident is otherwise than now proclaimed. So in conclusion, it is the police actions that are highly unlikely and suspicious, not the actions of the deceased? Am I missing something in your posting?

Edited February 19, 2016 by Si Thea01

[Moonsterk]

Good news, also I'm sure the UK will be interested in seeing what the Thai autopsy report reveals and how much it contradicts the UK findings.

So the UK coroner has determined CoD was not drowning?

Sorry to disappoint you, what you'll likely get from the UK coroner, and it will concur with the Thai report is circumstances of death unknown- which will provide exactly zilch in proof Miller was murdered or otherwise met with a nefarious end. Of course the LMWM group will seize on this nothingness as more " evidence."

unfortunately you have it all backwards, in a sudden death (when a body is found dead) situation the onus is on the police to initially investigate - not to prove it was a murder but to prove it wasn't - and there is a difference, when the latter cannot be proven then that could trigger further investigation and onto a possible murder enquiry

initially everything will be done to rule out foul play, if police find injuries that cannot be explained from - for example - someone jumping into a swimming pool then that would/should raise enough interest to take it further. Thai Police had already closed this case before it got started with a theory that some people are questioning, the most obvious is how this young man ended up dead in a swimming pool, what raises further interest are the claimed bruises on his body that don't fit with the police theory, add to that the wall of silence and lack of cctv for most reasonable people raises some unanswered questions and makes the Thai Police version of events highly unlikely and suspicious, but of course it is unreasonable to think that the Thai Police would attempt to cover anything up - right ?

Unfortunately, you are not quite correct, maybe it's the way you have worded it, I don't know but in the case of a sudden or unexplained death of an individual, the agencies involved are initially tasked with determining the cause of death, not to prove or disprove anything, murder or otherwise. Once the cause has been determined then it is the evidence (circumstances/suspicion) gathered through this aspect of the inquiry that may trigger the need for a further investigation. Most investigators enter an investigation with an open mind and are certainly not tasked to do everything to rule out foul play. This situation will come to fruition during the normal course of the inquiry. To make such a statement highlights how you lack, not only investigatory knowledge but also the understanding of the protocols required to implement an investigation.

Now, I have no idea of how the RTP conducted their investigation but to fulfill the necessities required there is a direct need, with many of the deaths today having more and more civil as well as criminal implications, that a top-quality death-scene investigation is a must in any jurisdiction. Now, this may have or have not occurred, none of us know, we weren't there. However, as you seem to have a major insight into this matter I'm sure you can explain how well or how poorly the at-scene investigation was conducted by the RTP.

I see you refer to claimed bruising, that's a pleasant change as so many on here are taking it for granted that bruising was present and this has led them off on a tangent that cannot be proven by anything that has been discovered during the police inquiry and subsequent autopsy. The presence of bruising, as far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong, was raised by the two friends who alleged they saw and photographed these alleged injuries at the hospital, where the initial autopsy was carried out. You are basing your hypothesis on allegations proffered by two people and the fact that the deceased jumped into a pool. Why should the latter give rise to further investigations if an autopsy provides the cause of death? Are you intimating that those at the hospital have colluded with police to cover up some sinister incident?

What wall of silence? If you are referring to the friends, then yes, I agree, I believe they know a lot more than they are letting on. As for CCTV, this is not the be-all and end-all, as many on here will tell you it can be doctored. So it was not working, what does that prove, many are in this state and are of poor quality so to raise suspicion just because of this one aspect is being a little over-zealous in one's attempt to suggest this incident is otherwise than now proclaimed. So in conclusion, it is the police actions that are highly unlikely and suspicious, not the actions of the deceased? Am I missing something in your posting?

Finally some logic to work with... you are not addressing my post, but please let me elaborate on yours.

The bruising, scratches and contusions were claimed by the companions as not consistent with drowning which was quoted by them on the Andrew Drummond site. ( link not allowed ) I think they completely dismissed police rationale for the wounds based on an individual police opinion on how Luke came to be falling down a vertical wall;

Maybe he climbed up to take a dive..?

Which has then become a basis for entire scenario of murder, and police cover up. Luke wouldn't do that ... he was afraid of water, he would only be showing off for someone else, he..... he..... he...., all mind-reading suppositions " proving murder.." which prove nothing other than the believer's lack of impartiality and logic.

I think the traveling companions are completely wrong, having not had their theories dissected and do not know anything over what anyone else does, and actually, even less. For instance, I've seen a lot of confusion on the CoD, drowning being dismisses as " wrong" since there is an "open verdict" as to the circumstances.

As mentioned earlier on the thread, this open verdict is an explanation that no can say for sure how it is Luke came to drown, for there are no witness statements., (Nor likely to ever be any. One of my own suppositions is Luke might have had company, perhaps a local- or bar girl even but perhaps that person has their own reasons for not coming forth, illegal entry, supplied drugs, not wanting to get stitched up. But that is just a musing aside and in no way being offered up as any relevant fact.)

The insulation within the FB discussion group (linked to by Island Lover earlier,) and its complete refusal to allow any discourse on the topic, inciting vicious attacks on anyone who attempts it, leads me to a conclusion they and some family members simply need to believe it was murder as the alternative, that Luke's own behavior led to his death, is just not bearable.

I think there is an underlying need for approval which this death incident has provided in an a magnificent manner. It's an incredible case study into that pathology, and the life of an internet rumour. The vary real suffering caused to family from these allegations is not to be dismissed lightly, either in considering the mentality of a a person involved in such a scenario.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Moonsterk

[SoiBiker]

Nice to see some logic emerge from the soup of bias, assumption and hysteria that this thread has become.

[Moonsterk]

perfectly reasonable for you maybe, but not for me and I know what I am talking about

Well I don't think you do, I think you might be convinced of it, but I can say I know a lot too, and knowing a pile of BS when I smell it. You have not offered up one argument that isn't based on erred information that is a complete fantasy of someone who desperately needs this to be murder and has seized on the circumstances to solicit sympathy and approval in an impressive but ultimately harmful manner.

The Thai coroner issued CoD as drowning. This is death because of water in the lungs. Period. No circumstances needed for this- water in lungs causes death.

I doubt the UK inquest, when the report is released in a year or so, will be be contradicting this finding. It will concur with the finding with an addendum, along the lines the circumstances leading to this condition are unknown.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Moonsterk

[Moonsterk]

OK here's a latest posting more of this outrageous evidence that this was a murder and is posted on a Thai news FB page where there is an actual discussion, albeit the pro murder side is fairly much on full 8th grade, sexual innuendo mentality attack mode. There's even some bestiality suggestions!

PM me for link as the title of it violates TVF rules regarding boycotts.

It is four days later. The policeman's name is blanked out, but suffice to say he's a cadet using a personal FB account for the conversation. It's a good point to make to visitors in this situation and I recommend it go on the beware brochure every tourist should receive at the border, if they are involved with a death to not take any communications on private channels with police underlings as proof of ...anything, much less murder.

The Embassy will be the ones who'll handle these type of communiques, and it will be to the family, only.

"Yes we will investigate the death, yes it is 'suspicious' ( when men in their 20's are found drowned with injuries...) but I cannot say it was murder." Yes, you look very nice...Yes I can.... er, view your profile pic tonight back at the dorm... giggling as he writes.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Moonsterk

[smedly]

your inference of someone attempting to dive is quite honestly nonsense, people have been known to jump into the pool

[Moonsterk]

your inference of someone attempting to dive is quite honestly nonsense, people have been known to jump into the pool

Do you even read the entire posts? I don't think you do because your retorts just do not address the points made.

That is what the LMWMG ( Luke Miller Was Murdered Group ) is stating police told them. The entire premise of their allegations is;

Luke would not climb up to dive in a pool.

And then it's added; so how did he get injuries from just diving into a pool ?

It is the most astonishing examples of convoluted reasoning, completely void of logic rationalizations I think I have ever come across.

This " diving .." was just a police opinion of what may have happened, a possible explanation as to how he came to fall down a vertigal wall..... Luke may have climbed up for a dive... that LMWMG has taken as some sort of official statement and seized upon as proving murder.

He fell, several meters, through barbed wire, onto concrete, bashed his head, knocked out, ended up in pool, drowned. End of story.

It is no wonder not one media outlet aside from AD, who after all is just a blog- a tabloidish blog that really only has an audience for the Pattaya stories, has made any kind of cursory investigation into this murder theory, because it is obviously false.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Moonsterk

[Moonsterk]

your inference of someone attempting to dive is quite honestly nonsense, people have been known to jump into the pool

And I did not make it, read the post, please.

Finally some logic to work with... you are not addressing my post, but please let me elaborate on yours.

The bruising, scratches and contusions were claimed by the companions as not consistent with drowning which was quoted by them on the Andrew Drummond site. ( link not allowed ) I think they completely dismissed police rationale for the wounds based on an individual police opinion on how Luke came to be falling down a vertical wall;

Maybe he climbed up to take a dive..?

Which has then become a basis for entire scenario of murder, and police cover up. Luke wouldn't do that ... he was afraid of water, he would only be showing off for someone else, he..... he..... he...., all mind-reading suppositions " proving murder.." which prove nothing other than the believer's lack of impartiality and logic.

I think the traveling companions are completely wrong, having not had their theories dissected and do not know anything over what anyone else does, and actually, even less. For instance, I've seen a lot of confusion on the CoD, drowning being dismisses as " wrong" since there is an "open verdict" as to the circumstances.

As mentioned earlier on the thread, this open verdict is an explanation that no can say for sure how it is Luke came to drown, for there are no witness statements., (Nor likely to ever be any. One of my own suppositions is Luke might have had company, perhaps a local- or bar girl even but perhaps that person has their own reasons for not coming forth, illegal entry, supplied drugs, not wanting to get stitched up. But that is just a musing aside and in no way being offered up as any relevant fact.)

The insulation within the FB discussion group (linked to by Island Lover earlier,) and its complete refusal to allow any discourse on the topic, inciting vicious attacks on anyone who attempts it, leads me to a conclusion they and some family members simply need to believe it was murder as the alternative, that Luke's own behavior led to his death, is just not bearable.

I think there is an underlying need for approval which this death incident has provided in an a magnificent manner. It's an incredible case study into that pathology, and the life of an internet rumour. The vary real suffering caused to family from these allegations is not to be dismissed lightly, either in considering the mentality of a a person involved in such a scenario.

[TheLobster]

Amazing the lack of cctv on Ko Tao.

It's amazing that anyone would expect a Thai island to be covered in CCTV cameras.

CCTV is/was available but it seems only when convenient to the owners, the police do not seem to have any power or inclination to seize relevant CCTV coverage?

[Si Thea01]

You are so wrong. if you worded it correctly then what you are stating is total mishmash in relation to the requirements of those involved in an investigation surrounding a person's demise. I fully understand everything you write and the selective approach you take by choosing a single sentence out of a 4 paragraph post on which to base your response. I have read your posts (yes, all of them) and find that when the going gets tough and legitimate questions are put to you, you duck for cover and come up with you typical nondescript one-liners.

I won't bother pursuing any responses to what I asked, it would be a waste of time, but I will reiterate that you clearly have no idea what an investigation into a person's death entails, the number of specialists that are involved and the protocols that need to be adhered to in order to ensure that the matter is dealt with, within the legal parameters, and in order for a coroner to come to a conclusion from the evidence gathered and presented. Yes, evidence DELETED not the fictional rubbish that many tend to proffer on here.

Edited February 20, 2016 by seedy
troll / flaming

[Moonsterk]

CCTV is/was available but it seems only when convenient to the owners, the police do not seem to have any power or inclination to seize relevant CCTV coverage?

Here's another post tossing out whatever it takes to avoid addressing valid points. Is this a statement in form of a question for a reason?

What CCTV ? Around the pool where Miller fell and drowned? Has it even been established there was a working camera at that specific location and it was operating at the very late hours this incident happened? I do not think it has.

I'm sure police have power to seize CCTV recordings, yes. Of course, it needs to exist.

DELETED

It's as if this really really needs to have been a murder and lack of evidence and unreliable accounts and information be damned. Why would this be is my question.

Why put a grieving family through this?

Edited February 20, 2016 by seedy
troll / flaming