work permit ? subsistence farming confusion

[Jaybot]

Hello to all !

will try to make this as short as possible. I am 31 yrs old, married to a Thai for 2 years now, been in Thailand for 5 years. I have no family in the U.S. and no plans on ever going back. I have always been attracted to nature more than the city hussle and bar scenes. I have made good friends with a Thai here and she assisted me in coming up with the 400,000 baht needed to show immigration for the non-O visa I got. I am currently saving money as best as I can manage with hopes of getting out of the city to a more rural life. I now stay in Nonthaburi with my wife. My friend and her family has over 300 rai of land in Nakhon Nayok. She her family is willing to give me a small chunk of that land to build a house on and start a new life there. Planting vegetables, trees, or whatever else that could grow and sustain me and my wife. I would do the hard work involved with the farming, and my wife would sell some of the crops locally. We want to have children as soon as I got 400,000 saved of my own to keep the government at ease with yearly extensions. I should have that money within the next 2 years. Having my own thoughts of this lifestyle, my friend sent me this article about that guy Martin Wheeler. I read so many threads here about him and have not really seen a clear answer as to HOW he gets through the loopholes of working in agriculture with no work permit, and his autobiography mentions nothing about him having Thai citizenship.....but then I read some other post that someone said he has a Thai passport. The other thing that I read that gave me some real hope, is someone said he is farming for subsistence and not "working". So what, as long as I am not personally selling the crop myself... I just do the work, and have my wife sell, that I could get by the system like that or what ? I have read the Alien Act thing saying that I am not allowed to work as agriculture, but is there some loophole in the definition of "work" ? I work to feed my family, and MY WIFE would be the one actually exchanging goods for money ? Anyways, I am just trying to find out if anyone has any real answers to how I could go about my plan and stay legal doing it. This may have been discussed many times, but I would really appreciate it if anybody has come upon any ways to live like that legally. Thank you for reading this all and I would truly appreciate any help that you wiser men may have on the topic. Good day

[theguyfromanotherforum]

No problems that I can see

[Jaybot]

No problems that I can see

meaning that I should be able to do as I explained with no problems from immigration.....right? Do you have any personal experience on a similar situation or know anyone who has ? Just afraid on how it would go down when the immigration officers visit the land one day to confirm my address and marriage status in the future for a non-O extension. Thanks for reading my post and your feedback.

[elviajero]

Firstly. If you ever have a problem with the 400k for the yearly extension you can currently get a 1 year multiple entry visa based on marriage from Savannakhet without financial proof. It involves quarterly border runs but it's an option if needed.

I don't know of any way to do what you want legally without a work permit, and I doubt very much if you would get a work permit for manual farm work under any circumstances. My advice would be to go and talk to the local Department of Labour and discuss what you can and can't do with them. Unfortunately I doubt they would have good news but their opinion is the only one that counts. That said, once you were settled in to rural life you could probably do pretty much whatever you wanted. As long as it was on your wife's/friends land you would likely be left alone.

[Jaybot]

Firstly. If you ever have a problem with the 400k for the yearly extension you can currently get a 1 year multiple entry visa based on marriage from Savannakhet without financial proof. It involves quarterly border runs but it's an option if needed.

I don't know of any way to do what you want legally without a work permit, and I doubt very much if you would get a work permit for manual farm work under any circumstances. My advice would be to go and talk to the local Department of Labour and discuss what you can and can't do with them. Unfortunately I doubt they would have good news but their opinion is the only one that counts. That said, once you were settled in to rural life you could probably do pretty much whatever you wanted. As long as it was on your wife's/friends land you would likely be left alone.

yes... thank you for the reminder about the 1yr multiple entry.

yea, as far as laws go, there is no way to get a work permit for that....... I was always curious to know if maybe that guy Martin Wheeler just explained that he was only exercising the kings theory of self sufficiency and the Thai authorities respect that and leave him alone... or something like that. thanks a lot for your reply sir

[PattayaPhom]

What a breathe of freshair, Jay you seem to know what you want and really going for it...a far better way of life. As you are aware Foreigners shouldn't do manual labour however if its your wifes land and you are living there surrounded by your friends family, its hardly likely you would have a problem especially as you wont be doing the selling. Good luck and hope it all turns out well for you and do keep us updated.

[ubonjoe]

When I was living full time at our home in the village I did a lot of things that would of been considered work but was never bothered about it. Even the local police and other officials knew what I was doing.

I was helping out with the local water systems. The police chief gave me sacks full of broken submersible water pump parts to see I could make one work.after getting reference letters form him and couple of the local policemen for my first extension. I managed to create one pump that worked.

[Jaybot]

What a breathe of freshair, Jay you seem to know what you want and really going for it...a far better way of life. As you are aware Foreigners shouldn't do manual labour however if its your wifes land and you are living there surrounded by your friends family, its hardly likely you would have a problem especially as you wont be doing the selling. Good luck and hope it all turns out well for you and do keep us updated.

I really appreciate your positive feedback .... "foreigners shouldn't do manual labour", thats just the thing, it would only be considered "working" if I was obtaining some type of salary, which I wouldn't be doing. Just seems like there must be some other guy thats kind of doing the same thing that works through the loopholes somehow. Like elviajero said in the previous post, I would probably need to go and talk to the Department of Labor. I hate to say it, but I am pretty sure even if I brought my wife to help explain, there would not be complete understanding between what I try and explain to them, which would lead to a waste of time. Well...thank you

[cornishcarlos]

Go for it Jay... There will be the usual moaners on here claiming people like you are spoiling it for everyone else, blah blah blah... Don't listen to them

I do a lot of work around our properties, from digging to painting, electrics, building and raising my animals. My wife sells our produce to locals... Never a problem but we are not in a town, so low key...

Good luck

[Jaybot]

When I was living full time at our home in the village I did a lot of things that would of been considered work but was never bothered about it. Even the local police and other officials knew what I was doing.

I was helping out with the local water systems. The police chief gave me sacks full of broken submersible water pump parts to see I could make one work.after getting a reference letters form him and couple of the local policemen for my first extension. I managed to create one pump that worked.

Awesome,, this is great to hear. Gives me greater hope. I would just go out there to the area, meet and greet with the locals and lend a hand what whatever I could when I could do it. All of this is just me trying to get a better perspective on my hopes about this upcoming change in the next couple of years. Sounds like I should just go ahead and do it....and if some problems come up with immigration officers, than I will take it one step at a time. OH, one more thing... It is almost 2 years that I would have been married, and I will be doing my first extension of stay based on marriage. Do the immigration officers come out and drill you with questions and want to see pictures and all that stuff EVERYTIME I would do an extension..... or was that for just obtaining the non-O ?? thank you in advance.

[MaeJoMTB]

Shouldn't be any problem with what you do on her land.

But,

Never admit to anyone, local or foreigner, what you are doing.

Never allow any outsider, local of foreigner, to see you working on the farm.

Don't drive produce off the farm.

OK Shhhhhhhh!

[ubonjoe]

It depends upon the local immigration office where you have to apply at whether theywould do a home visa or not. Many have you bring in statements that you are lining together from neighbors or the village head. Some offices will want you bring a witness or witnesses with you when you apply.

Mine gave us a letter to take to the police requesting the letter that I mentioned after the application was accepted for my first application. As soon a we had the letters my wife took them to immigration.

[elviajero]

What a breathe of freshair, Jay you seem to know what you want and really going for it...a far better way of life. As you are aware Foreigners shouldn't do manual labour however if its your wifes land and you are living there surrounded by your friends family, its hardly likely you would have a problem especially as you wont be doing the selling. Good luck and hope it all turns out well for you and do keep us updated.

I really appreciate your positive feedback .... "foreigners shouldn't do manual labour", thats just the thing, it would only be considered "working" if I was obtaining some type of salary, which I wouldn't be doing. Just seems like there must be some other guy thats kind of doing the same thing that works through the loopholes somehow. Like elviajero said in the previous post, I would probably need to go and talk to the Department of Labor. I hate to say it, but I am pretty sure even if I brought my wife to help explain, there would not be complete understanding between what I try and explain to them, which would lead to a waste of time. Well...thank you

Jay, whether or not you are paid a salary is irrelevant. Even voluntary work legally needs a work permit.

I came here when I was 31 and the best advice I can give is to learn the language as quickly as possible. Oonce you are fluent in the language it will open up so many more doors.

[Dancealot]

Great story, Jay! It seems to me you already have enough hope and now it's time to act on it. To give you some more hope: you're not the only one.

[Jaybot]

What a breathe of freshair, Jay you seem to know what you want and really going for it...a far better way of life. As you are aware Foreigners shouldn't do manual labour however if its your wifes land and you are living there surrounded by your friends family, its hardly likely you would have a problem especially as you wont be doing the selling. Good luck and hope it all turns out well for you and do keep us updated.

I really appreciate your positive feedback .... "foreigners shouldn't do manual labour", thats just the thing, it would only be considered "working" if I was obtaining some type of salary, which I wouldn't be doing. Just seems like there must be some other guy thats kind of doing the same thing that works through the loopholes somehow. Like elviajero said in the previous post, I would probably need to go and talk to the Department of Labor. I hate to say it, but I am pretty sure even if I brought my wife to help explain, there would not be complete understanding between what I try and explain to them, which would lead to a waste of time. Well...thank you

Jay, whether or not you are paid a salary is irrelevant. Even voluntary work legally needs a work permit.

I came here when I was 31 and the best advice I can give is to learn the language as quickly as possible. Oonce you are fluent in the language it will open up so many more doors.

elviajero, I hear you, but working in a garden and keeping up some vegetables would be work to better my own living. Just as I break open the accessible plumbing pipes in my condo hear, to remove the gunk that builds up and causes problems, or even washing dishes and other things necessary for life. Would even THOSE deeds be considered voluntary ? not being a smart ass, serious question. I dont believe it would, just as I dont see how growing some vegetables on a little land would be "voluntary work", BUT, I also would not be surprised if Thailand DID consider that "work", and tell me I need a work permit to do my own plumbing maintenance. I have always been serious about learning the language fluently, and I speak enough to get around. I have studied Thai music ever since I first came, and have been on several t.v. shows singing Thai songs and singing with and meeting some famous Thai singers. I recently turned down the last show offer from Workpoint because I told them I have gotten lucky too many times already, and I dont want to risk my freedom anymore by appearing on t.v., because I would nee a work permit to receive money from them. Not bragging in any way, but want to give examples of how serious I am with the language. I agree about it opening doors. Thank you for all your input sir.

[elviajero]

elviajero, I hear you, but working in a garden and keeping up some vegetables would be work to better my own living. Just as I break open the accessible plumbing pipes in my condo hear, to remove the gunk that builds up and causes problems, or even washing dishes and other things necessary for life. Would even THOSE deeds be considered voluntary ? not being a smart ass, serious question. I dont believe it would, just as I dont see how growing some vegetables on a little land would be "voluntary work", BUT, I also would not be surprised if Thailand DID consider that "work", and tell me I need a work permit to do my own plumbing maintenance. I have always been serious about learning the language fluently, and I speak enough to get around. I have studied Thai music ever since I first came, and have been on several t.v. shows singing Thai songs and singing with and meeting some famous Thai singers. I recently turned down the last show offer from Workpoint because I told them I have gotten lucky too many times already, and I dont want to risk my freedom anymore by appearing on t.v., because I would nee a work permit to receive money from them. Not bragging in any way, but want to give examples of how serious I am with the language. I agree about it opening doors. Thank you for all your input sir.

I think common sense needs to be applied. The alien working act is clear in that any, paid or unpaid, work requires a work permit. The definition of work is so broad that it could encompass pretty much anything, including growing vegetables in a garden. I consider Thailand my home (20 years), but I am still an alien with very limited rights, which does get frustrating at times. You have been granted a temporary leave to stay and your activities are pretty much limited to tourism/leisure/visiting your wife, and anything that could possibly be considered work requires permission.

At the end of the day the authorities are not going to be worried about a foreigner growing vegetables on his families land, but if they wanted to enforce the law they could stop you, and or deport you if they could convince a judge that you were working. As working defined under the law could be pretty much anything you're potentially screwed. One threat could come from jealous neighbours, or worse a local big wig, that for any reason dislike to what you were doing or your presence. Again unlikely but if the authorities get involved they might be forced to act.

There is a line at which point the activity is considered work and unacceptable, and of course washing dishes etc don't come close. The problem is that no one really knows where the line is. I've dealt with the DOL for years and had many conversations on the subject. Officially they say a foreigner can't do anything, but unofficially tell you that it's ok as long as you keep a low profile.

Also, you should know that a foreigner granted an extension of stay based on marriage has to show 400k or a 40k income as a way to demonstrate they can afford their 1 year stay. Of course you can work abroad or legally within Thailand, but you don't want immigration asking to many questions about how you earn a living at the annual renewals.

I'm not trying to put you off your goals. You should go for it and I am sure everything will work out. Just be aware of what your actual rights are so that you don't get any nasty shocks down the road.

[MaeJoMTB]

At the end of the day the authorities are not going to be worried about a foreigner growing vegetables on his families land, but if they wanted to enforce the law they could stop you, and or deport you if they could convince a judge that you were working.

No, they couldn't deport him.

He already stated he is on a marriage Visa extension. Working would not be breaking the conditions of his permission to stay.

Working without a WP is a very minor infringement of Thai law.

Fine and warning only.

(Different if you were here on retirement/ed/tourist VISA, as you would be breaking the conditions of your permission to stay)

[elviajero]

At the end of the day the authorities are not going to be worried about a foreigner growing vegetables on his families land, but if they wanted to enforce the law they could stop you, and or deport you if they could convince a judge that you were working.

No, they couldn't deport him.

He already stated he is on a marriage Visa extension. Working would not be breaking the conditions of his permission to stay.

Working without a WP is a very minor infringement of Thai law.

Fine and warning only.

(Different if you were here on retirement/ed/tourist VISA, as you would be breaking the conditions of your permission to stay)

Yes they could.

• There is no visa or extension of stay that gives someone permission to work. So regardless of his extension of stay based on marriage Immigration could deport him for breaking the terms of his permission to stay if he doesn't have a work permit.
• The Department of Labour could fine him for illegal working and or ask him to leave the country. If he refused to leave it would be up to a Judge who could deport him or imprison him for up to five years.

[Jaybot]

elviajero, I hear you, but working in a garden and keeping up some vegetables would be work to better my own living. Just as I break open the accessible plumbing pipes in my condo hear, to remove the gunk that builds up and causes problems, or even washing dishes and other things necessary for life. Would even THOSE deeds be considered voluntary ? not being a smart ass, serious question. I dont believe it would, just as I dont see how growing some vegetables on a little land would be "voluntary work", BUT, I also would not be surprised if Thailand DID consider that "work", and tell me I need a work permit to do my own plumbing maintenance. I have always been serious about learning the language fluently, and I speak enough to get around. I have studied Thai music ever since I first came, and have been on several t.v. shows singing Thai songs and singing with and meeting some famous Thai singers. I recently turned down the last show offer from Workpoint because I told them I have gotten lucky too many times already, and I dont want to risk my freedom anymore by appearing on t.v., because I would nee a work permit to receive money from them. Not bragging in any way, but want to give examples of how serious I am with the language. I agree about it opening doors. Thank you for all your input sir.

I think common sense needs to be applied. The alien working act is clear in that any, paid or unpaid, work requires a work permit. The definition of work is so broad that it could encompass pretty much anything, including growing vegetables in a garden. I consider Thailand my home (20 years), but I am still an alien with very limited rights, which does get frustrating at times. You have been granted a temporary leave to stay and your activities are pretty much limited to tourism/leisure/visiting your wife, and anything that could possibly be considered work requires permission.

At the end of the day the authorities are not going to be worried about a foreigner growing vegetables on his families land, but if they wanted to enforce the law they could stop you, and or deport you if they could convince a judge that you were working. As working defined under the law could be pretty much anything you're potentially screwed. One threat could come from jealous neighbours, or worse a local big wig, that for any reason dislike to what you were doing or your presence. Again unlikely but if the authorities get involved they might be forced to act.

There is a line at which point the activity is considered work and unacceptable, and of course washing dishes etc don't come close. The problem is that no one really knows where the line is. I've dealt with the DOL for years and had many conversations on the subject. Officially they say a foreigner can't do anything, but unofficially tell you that it's ok as long as you keep a low profile.

Also, you should know that a foreigner granted an extension of stay based on marriage has to show 400k or a 40k income as a way to demonstrate they can afford their 1 year stay. Of course you can work abroad or legally within Thailand, but you don't want immigration asking to many questions about how you earn a living at the annual renewals.

I'm not trying to put you off your goals. You should go for it and I am sure everything will work out. Just be aware of what your actual rights are so that you don't get any nasty shocks down the road.

yes, I am aware of those rights, and I am glad to hear this from a veteran like yourself. I just get caught up in my own thoughts and worry too damn much about my freedom here, because I would have no other place to go if things got sour here. I guess I would have to be an <deleted> to the villagers or cause problems making waves in the area for any real worries to come about from immigration,,, low profile is key, got it. I will just go along with my plan one short term goal after another and keep on surviving. I truly appreciate you taking time in replying and others as well. Good day sir.