webfact Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Frustrations in Thailand!by The Pattaya SleuthBANGKOK: -- I think that those of us who live in Thailand have all experienced shall we say a few frustrations over the years and most of these frustrations relate to the simplest things.One of the things that Westerners tend to find the most frustrating and confusing is the idea of ‘saving face’. To those of you who are unaware, ‘face’ is one of the most important things in Thai culture and indeed in many other Asian countries. How important you appear is more important than what you achieve – or style over substance as we would call it.One of the most common situations that you will find a Thai doing all they can to save face is when they quite simply don’t understand a word that you are saying – something I am quite familiar with!It is extremely common to get an answer of just ‘yes’ regardless of what you have asked or sometimes they may just walk off and ignore you. Ignoring you means that they don’t have to answer therefore they don’t lose face – a Westerner often sees it as being rude or ignorant but I guess that is the difference in cultures.The other day I witnessed a regular visitor to Thailand, someone I actually know quite well raising his voice to a Thai in a local bar. Again this is a big no, no.The guy had ordered a coffee but was given a Chang beer. Apparently this had happened on several occasions on previous days and he quite simply ‘lost his rag’ – in fact even in England his response was a little over the top! Needless, to say the girls have all stuck together and the gentleman in question now finds it extremely difficult to get a drink of any description in that bar!My other experiences of saving face have often been equally as frustrating as they have been funny. My girlfriend is by definition a female and Thai so therefore it is impossible for her to be wrong.Regardless of what error she makes, no matter how small or irrelevant the subject, if questioned the response will either be totally denial – a la Baldrick or just a barefaced lie.At first this caused problems but then I just learned to realise that the subjects were so irrelevant such as missing chocolate in the fridge that it didn’t matter and I was just get wound up over nothing – after all ‘This is Thailand’!Source: http://www.inspirepattaya.com/lifestyle/frustrations-thailand/ -- Inspire Bangkok 2016-01-21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannork Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Headlines that end with an exclamation mark are dodgy from the outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLover Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The reporter's girlfriend is "by definition a female" What does that mean exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arithai12 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Why did I click on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasmus5150 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I always hated the way Thai people walk on the streets of Bangkok. Totally unaware of other people, while distracted with their stupid phones. Stopping in the middle of the sidewalk and blocking all movement. Otherwise I am "Lovin' it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLover Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Why did I click on this?Oh, The Pattaya Sleuth writes many articles of such interesting topics, he seems so worldly and knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkidlad Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The idea of 'face' It's part of Thai culture and we must respect it (when in Thailand) Okay, so Thais have face. I hear so often from people that Thais are the nicest people in the world (there are good ones and bad ones same as anywhere). Thais are the nicest people in the world but don't piss them off. They have this ever so endearing part of their culture called 'face'. And if you piss them off, deliberately or otherwise, you could end up in a world of pain. It's fair, right? I hear stories of rude foreigners making some local Thais lose face and then the foreigners getting a good beating. This apparently is fair 'cos we're in Thailand and they made them lose face. Sorry, but I absolutely don't agree. It sounds to me like there are some very angry people who are just waiting to explode. Being sworn at or having some foreigner put his foot somewhere they shouldn't doesn't justify violence; in fact, not a lot does. It's a cop out excuse to release your anger. Hide behind face and many Thais and foreigners alike will say "That's fair" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinisaan Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 My girlfriend is by definition a female and Thai so therefore it is impossible for her to be wrong. Not a good start of the day, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezzra Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 4 minutes of my morning I'll never get back.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven100 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 and the point of the story is ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinneil Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Thai people are never wrong. They will commit murder before they will lose face. I still love living here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The reporter's girlfriend is "by definition a female" What does that mean exactly? As he's a " Pattaya Sleuth" maybe he's just clarifying his girlfriend isn't packing a meat and two veg down south... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetime Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Why did I click on this? I'm going to start ignoring this writer. I've read two pieces. I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piersbeckett Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 It's not a great article, true, but it's not a bad explanation of the 'losing face' thing in Thailand either and as such will be helpful to some readers if they believe it which I think they should as in my many years here, I've found it to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikurauni Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 There is no perfect world. If you like to stay in Thailand, you need to follow their rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsujin Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Where's the dislike button? What a waste of time and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesetat2013 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Saving face is one thing! But outright lies and blames on anything else except for your own mistakes or your own decisions which turned out bad are another. Thais like to use saving face for anything possible that will prevent them from being responsible for their actions. They will use saving face as an excuse for something bad they did. But in the rest of the world a person who lies and doesn't accept responsibility for their actions is a bad person and not to be trusted. Even the smallest lies add up and grow until they are no longer small lies but huge ones. Thais should keep saving face. But isn't saving face showing that you are the man and learned from a mistake you made so it would not be done again? In Thailand, they teach the kids to lie, cheat, and not to be responsible for their work. Thailand wants to be part of the rest of the world. They want to be an important part of ASEAN. Yet, who trusts lip service and outright lies and who will want to do this on a continual basis? It is one thing to save face from trying to look good or look important. It is another to use saving face to lie and cheat and get off from being responsible for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Thailand is the 6th country I have lived in. Each of those countries had different cultures and their own idiosyncrasies. This 10th rate article is written by a sexpat. So whilst we can't expect it to be too cerebral, we could hope that the people at Thai Visa don't reproduce this sort of tripe to cause some sort of anti-Thai discussion. Thailand is an easy place to live. You are welcome to leave any time. You fit in with the culture of the host country. I lived in Japan for over a year and I can tell you that Thailand is a much easier culture to adapt to. If the author of the article actually knew Thailand a little better, he may find that in many establishments, if a server gets an order wrong, then they end up paying for the order. This is not unique to Thailand. I was with my family in Hoi An once and amongst the many dishes we ordered came a dish that admittedly sounded like the one I ordered but was something else. The girl disagreed initially but eventually took it back with a smile. We later spotted someone consoling her as she was crying close to the cashiers till. We pulled over another waitress and I asked "will she have to pay for the dish we sent back?" and she told us that she would. So we pulled the girl over and told her to add it to our bill. By that time we were full anyway, so we told them they could eat it themselves if they liked. Cost to us - about $10. Cost to her - a days wages. I wouldn't do this all the time - but she was a nice girl, service was good. So sometimes, the reason for someone disagreeing that they made a mistake is not so much face but the fact that they stand to lose a significant amount of their days earnings for making a mistake at work. Some people though - they just drift through this country with only a superficial knowledge of what is going on around them. So not quite the "Sleuth" ht thinks he is... Edited January 21, 2016 by pedro01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgjackson69 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 When I first came here, what I found frustrating was when I would ask a question, and if the other party did not know the answer, then they would not respond. It took a while for my wife to grasp the concept of "I do not know" is an acceptable answer to me...she will never say that to another Thai, at least for anything important. How I finally got it through was to explain that she is no more "stupid" for not knowing the answer, than I am for having to ask the question. That, and telling her the "business" response: "I do not know, but I will get the answer for you". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCC1701A Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 the other day i was telling my 43 year old Thai girlfriend I was sorry about a minor problem I was having. I told her I made the wrong decision, but I was going to fix it. this was a practical issue, not a relationship issue. I then said "i am sure you have made a mistake or bad decision sometime in your life." up to this point she had been talking, but she looked at me like she could not think of a single example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I hate what I call the "Mai Me" Syndrome. It's when you are looking for a particular item, say a drug in a pharmacy or something in a hardware store....When you ask a Thai salesperson or employee they respond with Mai Me or No have.....Then 90% of the time you find the item yourself. Thats when I make a point showing them. Loss of face? sometimes. Mostly they are just lazy...... Edited January 21, 2016 by NickJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The author of the OP has no clue what he's talking about. He doesn't have the most basic idea of what this "face" business is about. "Face," in terms of social interactions, is not so much about losing one's own "face." What's most important is to not cause someone else to lose face. And in fact, the west has a similar concept. It's called "public humiliation." You try not to humiliate someone publicly if at all possible, even if said person works for you. It's common sense. The difference in culture comes in when you try to figure out what would cause someone to lose face. Getting mad at someone and yelling at them for no good reason is a good example. That just shows a lack of emotional maturity and control. I know many expats who have this problem and it rarely solves anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 This 10th rate article is written by a sexpat. So whilst we can't expect it to be too cerebral, we could hope that the people at Thai Visa don't reproduce this sort of tripe to cause some sort of anti-Thai discussion. Agree that the author sounds like a sexpat. He doesn't seem to understand that a female ignoring him may have nothing to do with face, but rather that she's repulsed by him. This actually happened to my GF recently: She was walking down Nimman alone and some farang guy stopped her to ask for directions to some restaurant. After she told him, he asked her "You want to come?" She looked at him with shock and just turned and walked away without saying a word. Maybe that's what the author was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 the other day i was telling my 43 year old Thai girlfriend I was sorry about a minor problem I was having. I told her I made the wrong decision, but I was going to fix it. this was a practical issue, not a relationship issue. I then said "i am sure you have made a mistake or bad decision sometime in your life." up to this point she had been talking, but she looked at me like she could not think of a single example. I think that's just women in general... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldragon Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 And in fact, the west has a similar concept. It's called "public humiliation." The difference in culture comes in when you try to figure out what would cause someone to lose face. Nailed it with these two lines. The only other part I struggle with is the why. Why does losing face bother the Thais so much? But I guess I'm beyond caring about that. It's just so frustrating the way this concept holds the entire society back. How can you progress in any situation if you're unable to admit you did something wrong and then learn from it? Or if you don't hold others accountable for their mistakes and teach them how to do it correctly next time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 This 10th rate article is written by a sexpat. So whilst we can't expect it to be too cerebral, we could hope that the people at Thai Visa don't reproduce this sort of tripe to cause some sort of anti-Thai discussion. Agree that the author sounds like a sexpat. He doesn't seem to understand that a female ignoring him may have nothing to do with face, but rather that she's repulsed by him. This actually happened to my GF recently: She was walking down Nimman alone and some farang guy stopped her to ask for directions to some restaurant. After she told him, he asked her "You want to come?" She looked at him with shock and just turned and walked away without saying a word. Maybe that's what the author was talking about. Yeah - that happens a lot. Low class sexpats thinking every Thai gal is just waiting for a few Baht for a bunk-up. Once, I went out for an early morning burn up on a big bike with my wife. We ended up at 8am at Starbucks - I went in, she sat outside on the bike nursing the helmets (we decided to have our coffees in the park). Some classy fella went up to her at 8am and asked her for how much for a short time. I mean - for heaven's sake - you'd think at least a smile and a hello first - but nope "how much for a shag, love".... Charming. So it's not a shock that Thai women look down on people when they get this treatment. For good or worse - my wife now holds opinions of western men based on their appearance. This is mostly because she's witnessed the worse behavior from scruff guys with beer bellies and wife beaters. Not that I agree to judge people by their looks - but you can hardly blame them. So yeah - I agree - old "Pattaya Sleuth" probably looks as classy as he sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesetat2013 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Thailand is the 6th country I have lived in. Each of those countries had different cultures and their own idiosyncrasies. This 10th rate article is written by a sexpat. So whilst we can't expect it to be too cerebral, we could hope that the people at Thai Visa don't reproduce this sort of tripe to cause some sort of anti-Thai discussion. Thailand is an easy place to live. You are welcome to leave any time. You fit in with the culture of the host country. I lived in Japan for over a year and I can tell you that Thailand is a much easier culture to adapt to. If the author of the article actually knew Thailand a little better, he may find that in many establishments, if a server gets an order wrong, then they end up paying for the order. This is not unique to Thailand. I was with my family in Hoi An once and amongst the many dishes we ordered came a dish that admittedly sounded like the one I ordered but was something else. The girl disagreed initially but eventually took it back with a smile. We later spotted someone consoling her as she was crying close to the cashiers till. We pulled over another waitress and I asked "will she have to pay for the dish we sent back?" and she told us that she would. So we pulled the girl over and told her to add it to our bill. By that time we were full anyway, so we told them they could eat it themselves if they liked. Cost to us - about $10. Cost to her - a days wages. I wouldn't do this all the time - but she was a nice girl, service was good. So sometimes, the reason for someone disagreeing that they made a mistake is not so much face but the fact that they stand to lose a significant amount of their days earnings for making a mistake at work. Some people though - they just drift through this country with only a superficial knowledge of what is going on around them. So not quite the "Sleuth" ht thinks he is... You are lucky to say the least about your restaurant experience. I have been refused service for something as simple as telling them the coke bottle they brought me was flat. It was obvious it had been opened previously but the mere mention that I asked for a different one made them not want to even make my dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiyaibob Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I have been brought up in a culture where admitting to an error or a mistake is not "necessarily" a weakness... more a strength of character (being able to admit ones own infallibilities) however the whole loss of face embedded into Thais goes against this...has anybody ever heard a Thai utter the words "sorry I made a mistake" No me either...who is right who is wrong ?? Edited January 21, 2016 by kaiyaibob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 ...has anybody ever heard a Thai utter the words "sorry I made a mistake" Yes....all the time. The one group I've found who has a real problem admitting they've made a mistake are TVF members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkidlad Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 ...has anybody ever heard a Thai utter the words "sorry I made a mistake" Yes....all the time. The one group I've found who has a real problem admitting they've made a mistake are TVF members. Yea, I don't think he means when you bump into someone in the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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