Frustrations in Thailand!

[nemrut]

"How important you appear is more important than what you achieve – or style over substance as we would call it."

Another misguided farang spreading ignorance disguised as insight.

Too many farang mistaken 'face' for ego because that's the only mental model they have to explain the inexplicable.

What many farang don't seem to understand or disregard is that the concept of face in Asian cultures has profound implications as it relates to one's family, community and culture -- IOW, group oriented vs 'me' oriented.

So the concept of 'face' in Thailand and elsewhere in Asia is not simply about preserving one's ego and the individual(western interpretation) but rather their reputation and its reflection of their group affinity.

Lastly, far too many farang posting on this topic keep reiterating the notion of respect and their entitlement to being treated with such.

You're in a different culture and need to ask yourself what makes your definition of respect more valid and deserving of special treatment?

Too many farang come to Thailand with this attitude of entitlement expecting to be treated as 'rock stars' and anything less unacceptable and lacking respect. These of are ones that learn the hard way and spend all their time complaining.

[TuskegeeBen]

I agree we, as non-Thai's, should respect the Thai culture. However, as paying guests in the country Thai's should try and understand our culture. To walk away when someone has asked you a question is rude, maybe not in Thai culture (but I know it is) but in any culture.

You earn respect, it is not a right to be given it and Thailand needs to understand this.

Having said that I have never experienced any rudeness from the Thai's but maybe that is because I don't spend my time around the "tourist" locations

There are many different cultures that visit and live here - would you think that a Thai should learn all of the customs of every culture in the world, be able to discern which culture the person is from and adapt their behaviour accordingly?

Sounds a bit above the pay scale of a typical waitress...

I do very much agree with you too - I live outside of tourist areas and find people to be very polite...

Absolutely, Thais are often polite, to the (superficial) extreme, until you become more personally involved with them (Thai menfolk, in particular). Maintain a respectable (smiling-face) distance, at all times, and avoid the guaranteed "wake-up" call (patiently waiting in the shadows), to be made to you, should ever the Thai occasion arises, to warrant it..............

Edited January 24, 2016 by TuskegeeBen

[atyclb]

i bought a new "high quality" lol shower hose from big c (199 baht) was defective and wall end leaked water from the outset. i took it back to big c requesting change it for another that would hopefully work.

manager no less tried to tell me i couldnt return it as i had already opened package and exposed item to water.

i can read thai and have near native pronunciation ability. i asked her from what world she is from since the defective item carries water and one cannot not know if it works as intended unless they connect to water. cannot connect if the package is not first opened.

they ended up changing it for me and it seems they will simply put the defective one back on the shelf for sale.

the style of reason and logic and disconnect can boggle the mind.

[kinmaew]

I just wish Noi and her family could get their finances in order, I have limited money and an infinite libido!

[TuskegeeBen]

i bought a new "high quality" lol shower hose from big c (199 baht) was defective and wall end leaked water from the outset. i took it back to big c requesting change it for another that would hopefully work.

manager no less tried to tell me i couldnt return it as i had already opened package and exposed item to water.

i can read thai and have near native pronunciation ability. i asked her from what world she is from since the defective item carries water and one cannot not know if it works as intended unless they connect to water. cannot connect if the package is not first opened.

they ended up changing it for me and it seems they will simply put the defective one back on the shelf for sale.

the style of reason and logic and disconnect can boggle the mind.

Ditto! By following the sensible Russian example of keeping all personal contacts with Thais "soft", "simple" (etc.) and strictly business. Hence, a happy, headache-free sojourn, in the LoS. Guaranteed

Edited January 24, 2016 by TuskegeeBen

[csabo]

The reporter's girlfriend is "by definition a female"

What does that mean exactly?

It means the reporter is by definition the girlfriend. Intimate relationships are like baseball. Someone has to pitch and someone has to catch. Kow jai mai.

Edited January 24, 2016 by csabo

[dotpoom]

Foreigners have just as much "face" as Thai's....only we call it "ego".

[TuskegeeBen]

Foreigners have just as much "face" as Thai's....only we call it "ego".

The Thai faces are the only faces that count, in this Kingdom. Disregard that fact, to your own peril.

Edited January 24, 2016 by TuskegeeBen

[smotherb]

Headlines that end with an exclamation mark are dodgy from the outset.

Why?

[TuskegeeBen]

Headlines that end with an exclamation mark are dodgy from the outset.

Why?

Ignore that! That bloke has made the exact same single-lined post remark, on other topic threads. Probably because he has no other banner to offer.

Edited January 24, 2016 by TuskegeeBen

[smotherb]

I was trying hard to agree with your explanation of "face," but I lost you when you said, "My girlfriend is by definition a female and Thai so therefore it is impossible for her to be wrong. Regardless of what error she makes, no matter how small or irrelevant the subject, if questioned the response will either be totally denial – a la Baldrick or just a barefaced lie."

If you seriously think all Thai women believe it is impossible for them to be wrong, you must know the wrong women.

[smotherb]

The reporter's girlfriend is "by definition a female"

What does that mean exactly?

Well, two issues are most likely causing your confusion. First, the statement was neither punctuated nor well written. Second, your quote took what was said out of context--you quoted only part of the sentence. The OP said, "My girlfriend is by definition a female and Thai so therefore it is impossible for her to be wrong." I doubt he was clarifying his girlfriend's gender. I think he was inferring; by definition, all Thai females believe they cannot be wrong.

[mihalis]

Learn to speak Thai !

[fekman]

Walk the sidewalk here, and dont move for anyone. You will be unpleasantly surprised at how many people you bump into. I think 20% of the people walk with total disregard to people coming from the opposite direction.

[sawadee1947]

...and where is the point?

Is it so bad when the bar girl thinks of your health and bring you a coffee instead of a beer???

[Muhendis]

Thai people have a high regard for trying to be helpful. If, when driving, you stop and ask ask for directions to a place like a shop, factory or tourist attraction, you will always get an answer. As to the accuracy of the directions you would be well advised to have enough fuel to last a few hours.

[pedro01]

My key frustration in Thailand is the lack of awareness foreign visitors have.

It seems that they have no idea that the world is a big place, and contains many different cultures who manage life in different ways.

The mystery is why a person would leave the place they are from, thinking … “I can find a new place that is different and better…”

Then arrive on a new shore with nothing but complaints that “It ain’t like home!”

This complete lack of logic makes foreigners look like whining spoiled children who do not understand it “is not all about you.”

Really … if Aunt Sally’s porridge is simply the best, and no other food compares.. and all other food is … in your opinion “crap” … for the love of God …STAY WITH AUNT SALLY!

In summary .. there is much to learn in travel to other cultures, but to learn from them requires an ego-less exercise in humility and an open mind. Features sorely lacking in the Thai Visa world, and troubling to many Thais.

Instead of closing with a “Love it or leave it” statement .. let me offer some advice.

Look in the mirror.

Ask yourself, “Do I want to be happy and have a good day?”

If the answer is “yes’ .. you are in luck … for Thailand is full of good people and good places, and your mission … should you decide to accept it .. is:

Just spend a day playing this game. Every person you meet, look at them, and instead of turning on your internal judgment engine and finding fault .. find something good in them.

There is something good about every one of us .. and frankly .. much more in the average Thai than the average Westerner .. which is why I love living in the Kingdom.

Oh .. and if the answer to “Do I want to be happy and have a good day?” is “No” .. then I look forward to your cynical and mean spirited reply.

OK, I have a lovely Sunday planned, and am thanking my lucky stars I live in The Kingdom !!

Amen, brother

[pedro01]

I hate what I call the "Mai Me" Syndrome. It's when you are looking for a particular item, say a drug in a pharmacy or something in a hardware store....When you ask a Thai salesperson or employee they respond with Mai Me or No have.....Then 90% of the time you find the item yourself. Thats when I make a point showing them. Loss of face? sometimes. Mostly they are just lazy......

I learnt about this years ago. A similar story. was in Pattaya on holiday, as I live in Bangkok. I needed some Tiger balm so I went into a large store. I asked the lady working there politely in Thai where it was in Thai. She replied that they didn't sell it and went to walk away. At that point as she moved I saw it behind her. I then asked how long she had worked there in the assumption she was new. 7 years was the reply. When I pointed that it was right behind her, she stated that "it wasn't her aisle". Go figure.

Saving face is often an excuse for stupidity and not taking responsibility.

Sigh...

You see stupid.

You cant see someone that couldnt understand your garbled Thai but didnt want you to lose face when she realised how bad your mangled attempt at "ya mong" was

[pedro01]

There is no perfect world. If you like to stay in Thailand, you need to follow their rules.

If I don't agree with anyones rules in Thailand or anywhere else, then I will not obey them if I can get away with it.

If you want to obey everyones rules, then why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

When swimming in a river, swimming upstream may make you more of an 'individual' but you wont get anywhere...

[pedro01]

Thailand is the 6th country I have lived in.

Each of those countries had different cultures and their own idiosyncrasies.

This 10th rate article is written by a sexpat. So whilst we can't expect it to be too cerebral, we could hope that the people at Thai Visa don't reproduce this sort of tripe to cause some sort of anti-Thai discussion.

Thailand is an easy place to live. You are welcome to leave any time. You fit in with the culture of the host country. I lived in Japan for over a year and I can tell you that Thailand is a much easier culture to adapt to.

If the author of the article actually knew Thailand a little better, he may find that in many establishments, if a server gets an order wrong, then they end up paying for the order. This is not unique to Thailand.

I was with my family in Hoi An once and amongst the many dishes we ordered came a dish that admittedly sounded like the one I ordered but was something else. The girl disagreed initially but eventually took it back with a smile. We later spotted someone consoling her as she was crying close to the cashiers till. We pulled over another waitress and I asked "will she have to pay for the dish we sent back?" and she told us that she would. So we pulled the girl over and told her to add it to our bill. By that time we were full anyway, so we told them they could eat it themselves if they liked. Cost to us - about $10. Cost to her - a days wages.

I wouldn't do this all the time - but she was a nice girl, service was good.

So sometimes, the reason for someone disagreeing that they made a mistake is not so much face but the fact that they stand to lose a significant amount of their days earnings for making a mistake at work.

Some people though - they just drift through this country with only a superficial knowledge of what is going on around them.

So not quite the "Sleuth" ht thinks he is...

Please define "sexpat", and tell us how you know the author is one, and also tell us why such a person is unlikely to write a 'cerebral' article.

Expect follow-up questions.

sexpat: someone that moves to Thailand primarily because it is the only place on planet earth that they can get their dick wet.

How to tell the author is one: the articles he writes.

Why the person is less likely to write a cerebral article: Beer Chang

[Muhendis]

Eeee by gum. Pedro01 seems to have got out of bed the wrong side today.

[joshstiles]

another successful pointless post....the slitting of ones throat comes to mind as I read it....I can only wish 309,998 going to 309,997

[aronp1]

I always hated the way Thai people walk on the streets of Bangkok.

Totally unaware of other people, while distracted with their stupid phones. Stopping in the middle of the sidewalk and blocking all movement.

Otherwise I am "Lovin' it"

RIGHT! It's like ( What other people?)

Also how they're such n a rush to get to that shop 20 yrds. in front of them. It's like if they don't get to where they are going when they want to be there, it will disappear. Don't worry another BTS train will come. 555

Edited January 24, 2016 by aronp1

[Mudcrab]

Saving face is one thing! But outright lies and blames on anything else except for your own mistakes or your own decisions which turned out bad are another. Thais like to use saving face for anything possible that will prevent them from being responsible for their actions. They will use saving face as an excuse for something bad they did. But in the rest of the world a person who lies and doesn't accept responsibility for their actions is a bad person and not to be trusted. Even the smallest lies add up and grow until they are no longer small lies but huge ones. Thais should keep saving face. But isn't saving face showing that you are the man and learned from a mistake you made so it would not be done again? In Thailand, they teach the kids to lie, cheat, and not to be responsible for their work. Thailand wants to be part of the rest of the world. They want to be an important part of ASEAN. Yet, who trusts lip service and outright lies and who will want to do this on a continual basis? It is one thing to save face from trying to look good or look important. It is another to use saving face to lie and cheat and get off from being responsible for their actions.

And yet in the west they democratically elect liars and cheats who will do anything to save face, do this daily in the media and pay them large salaries. They are called politicians.

I remember learning about the Asian (not just the Thais, guys) face thing in school in the 1960's long before I ever set foot in Asia.

I can only surmise that most of the whiners here either suffer from a lack of education or this is their first time in Asia or both, having swapped a bedsit in Birmingham for a low class studio condo in Pattaya and now proclaim themselves the fount of all knowledge of the Thai culture.

Many people proudly claim to be the type who tells it like it is and to hell with other peoples feelings - other people view them as loudmouth ignorant fools. Give me the quietly spoken face saving Thai any day.

[NoshowJones]

There is no perfect world. If you like to stay in Thailand, you need to follow their rules.

If I don't agree with anyones rules in Thailand or anywhere else, then I will not obey them if I can get away with it.

If you want to obey everyones rules, then why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

When swimming in a river, swimming upstream may make you more of an 'individual' but you wont get anywhere...

I've done alright so far, and I have a good middle finger.

[Mudcrab]

I hate what I call the "Mai Me" Syndrome. It's when you are looking for a particular item, say a drug in a pharmacy or something in a hardware store....When you ask a Thai salesperson or employee they respond with Mai Me or No have.....Then 90% of the time you find the item yourself. Thats when I make a point showing them. Loss of face? sometimes. Mostly they are just lazy......

I assume you were asking the person in their native language i.e. Thai. Or were you asking in one of the many variations of the English language? And expecting them to respond correctly?

[Guest]

I hate what I call the "Mai Me" Syndrome. It's when you are looking for a particular item, say a drug in a pharmacy or something in a hardware store....When you ask a Thai salesperson or employee they respond with Mai Me or No have.....Then 90% of the time you find the item yourself. Thats when I make a point showing them. Loss of face? sometimes. Mostly they are just lazy......

I assume you were asking the person in their native language i.e. Thai. Or were you asking in one of the many variations of the English language? And expecting them to respond correctly?

I sincerely doubt a person with this negative attitude went to the trouble to learn Thai.

In fact, I believe the subconscious is a powerful thing, and they ENJOY this process, to have a perpetual ax to grind .. however unfair that might be.

You see, it is 2559, and there is this thing called "the internet"

You can access it by simply pushing a button on your smart phone and saying "OK Google"

(Example) "Hose clamp image"

(Reply) "OK, images of hose clamps"

THEN SHOW THE CLERK THE PICTURE. HOW HARD IS THAT?

You will be pleasantly surprised how much "smarter" the clerk then becomes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Typical Foreigner ... walks into a shop, says what sounds like to a Thai "qsjdbcoibqs jdhcpoiqhc dhcpoqspoh ncosn soch cnas" and is shocked he does not get a 10 millimeter bolt, nut and washer.

[rapom]

If I went into a bar, ordered coffee and they brought me a beer, I would not be upset. But if they corrected the order and brought me my coffee and also charged me for the beer, then I would be upset. No, I would be pissed. I don't care about their saving face. There are endless numbers of other places to spend my money. The OP must have a lot of free time. I wonder if any of the other 167,003 posts were this informative and life changing.

[NativeSon360]

Actually, I believe the frustration levels are higher with the Thais, in dealing with foreigners. All things considered, in giving credit, when credit is due, I find that most Thais, in the service sectors, truly make a sincere effort to accommodate the non-Thai-speaking foreign "guests" (farangs) of the Kingdom.

The frustration levels among farangs, is due to the fact that most farangs never bother to learn even phrase-book Thai. That much Thai-speaking would certainly make our sojourns in the Kingdom, considerably less frustrating,

[rogeroc]

I disagree with the last paragraph above. I like being in Thailand, i like Thais and in general the service is good. Having said that there are countless occasions when the reactions of serving staff appear almost moronic and it seems (as much as i do not want it to) that it must be done on purpose. My Thai is not great but certainly more than phrase book standard but how on earth can a serving girl not understand Leo Lek. How can they not understand you asking in Thai for either (what must logically be sugar or milk) to go with the coffee they have brought you. I find that these problems happen most in tourist areas as well which suggest it is the serving staff being simply awkward. It is both disappointing, frustrating and discourages the learning of Thai.