Is It Possible To Contract Corn Farmers To Grow A Specific Strain?

[Brewster67]

aHi to all corn farmers.

I was hoping to get some information regarding getting some corn grown for me of a specific type here in Thailand.

We were selling popcorn seed on a small scale for the past couple of years, primarily to premium popcorn makers/sellers.

But recently we were hit with a huge order from a large Thai food manufacturing company, and luckily we were already prepared and managed to supply them, but our luck is limited because our supplier has told us that stocks are low and they will have to wait at least 4 months for the next import.

The manufacturing company have told us they are very impressed with the quality and the speed in which we were able to cover the order, and have marked us down as their new supplier after being let down several times by their normal supplier on quality and reliability issues. It seems to be a Thai thing to not order anything until you have all but run out.

Anyway, this is a massive boost for us, and i am looking to import our own seed and cut out our own supplier, hoping we can maintain a stock without having to rely on others.

Now what we are hoping to do is, rather than maintain a regular import and having to go through the rigmarole of setting up the import, shipping costs, import duty and taxes and those ripoff customs and agent fees. I have decided to study up on growing the strain right here in Thailand, and processing the seed kernels myself. I have quite a background in food production and processing so I know all the processes once I have possession of the cobs.

This is where I need your help.

What would be the best way to go around setting up an agreement for local farmers to grow a specific crop for us? I have worked out that based on say 800KGs per rai, just to supply this company would take around 1000 of rai to cover their annual demands. This is also based on an average 14% cob to kernel yield ratio.

Now I understand that not too many farmers have that sort of land available, but would it be possible to approach a co-op? Or are their other associations who ally farmers together?

This is my main weak point to be honest, I have absolutely zero agricultural background other than what I read about in places like this forum. Obviously I would have to supply the seed as it is not available here at all. So the farmers would not have to lay out money on the seed, and we can negotiate the final collection price.

A few extra questions so i get an idea of set up costs for this.

What was the last known going rate for corn cobs on the cob/husk?

How many KGs of planting seed per rai?

How many seasons in a year?

Best planting region? (I am in Nakhon Ratchasima so closer the better).

Any help would be much appreciated. I know I have not covered all the specifics as I like to keep initial posts short, however, questions will come up, and I hope I can answer them accurately. Maybe I am living in dreamland, I don't know. But no seed outlay and a guarantee to sell the lot of as soon as it is ready, some will go for it.

Thank you in advance.

[farmerjo]

Hi Brewster,

For something on that scale,you might need to pick an area then go and talk to traders who buy/sell maize,sunflowers etc and see if they will help you.

Send member Wayned a pm and see if he can help..

[Brewster67]

Hi Brewster,

For something on that scale,you might need to pick an area then go and talk to traders who buy/sell maize,sunflowers etc and see if they will help you.

Send member Wayned a pm and see if he can help..

Thanks for that farmerjo. I will get the wife to look around for maize traders.

Having thought about it a bit deeper, we would be the only people supplying Thai grown popcorn seed, and thus the cheapest in the country, and as long as we can ensure quality standards in comparison with the imported stuff from South America, then there is no reason why we can not steal the entire market, and that I would think would be easily upwards of 5000 rai of planting.

So it looks like even much more sense to set something up here.

Any idea if corn is limited to a single crop season over here?

[kickstart]

Maize farmers are having a bad time at this time ,last year they was a drought ,most farmers lost they entire first crop ,in a normal year in Thailand you can get 2 crops a year ,I am south of you in Lopburi province ,and maize is a main crop round here .

We have a co-op round here ,but all the farms act on they own ,buying in seed ,fertilizer ,etc ,the co-op, just buy the crop ,and try and sell it at a good price ,most maize farmers sell it to one big independent buyer ,who also sells seed ,fertilizer ,and sprays etc ,a lot is sold on credit ,and the cost taken off when they sell the crop back to buyer .

If you provided seed ,and gave a guaranteed buy back price ,may be a say 2 ? Bart above market price ,you would not need a co- op ,word would soon get round ,I would have thought you would have no problem ,in finding growers .

Then I think the problems will start ,say you have 500 rie @ 800 kg /rie ,that is 4000 ton ,,you said you have a background of food production and processing ,if you look at TV's maize thread you will read that most maize is harvested at 25-35 % moisture ,as you know that has to be dried down to 15 % for safe storage that on its own could be a problem ,with out any heating up in the crop ,that would spoil the crop ,I have lived in this area a long while ,and we have nowhere that amount of storage space ,and I would not like to foot the bill for haulage to large storage area for 4000 ton of corn , unless of course the manufacturing company can handle that amount ,in a short time .

Also ,you now get your supplies from abroad where I would say quality standards are higher and they would have the equipment to clean and grade the crop ,they should be facilities in Thailand ,probably a rice mill ,but where ,and somewhere that could handle a large amount of corn , could be a long way from where the corn is ,again transport costs ,and then you have to send it to the manufacturing company ,probably in 50 kg sacks ,another job to do .

I am no expert, the above are a few things I thought of .

Price of maize on the cob round here last year was 4.70 - 5.80 Bart/ Kg .

Regards

KS

[Jotham79]

I have wanted to grow popcorn on a small scale for years. I wouldn't consider doing a large scale with doing a test. The seed you will bring in has been developed to work in a particular climate with certain pests and in a certain type of soil. The wrong bug comes along and someone could lose a crop. Try to get a couple of rai grown as a test. PM me if you get seed as I would like to try a small batch (1/4 to 1/2 rai).

I am curious about your production numbers of 800 kg of rai. If you are using the average for field corn, I think you be way too high. I think popcorn would run about 60% of normal. BTW, where are you located, I'm in Petchabun.

Cheers

[JungleBiker]

I wouldn't consider doing a large scale with doing a test. The seed you will bring in has been developed to work in a particular climate with certain pests and in a certain type of soil.

I agree with Jotham. Test your varieties first. I am pretty sure popcorn is normally produced in more temperate countries. If so, I believe a key issues is not so much the climate but the daylength (photoperiod). The days in Thailand (nearer to the Equator) are shorter than further north or south of the equator. Daylength can determine whether the plant will grow up or flower. Just check where popcorn is normally grow (how many degrees latitude) and let us know.

[Brewster67]

I wouldn't consider doing a large scale with doing a test. The seed you will bring in has been developed to work in a particular climate with certain pests and in a certain type of soil.

I agree with Jotham. Test your varieties first. I am pretty sure popcorn is normally produced in more temperate countries. If so, I believe a key issues is not so much the climate but the daylength (photoperiod). The days in Thailand (nearer to the Equator) are shorter than further north or south of the equator. Daylength can determine whether the plant will grow up or flower. Just check where popcorn is normally grow (how many degrees latitude) and let us know.

Good thinking. Popcorn is grown at many latitudes mainly in north and south America. Also many parts of Africa and India.

I also agree with the test batch so we can certainly identify yield, quality etc.... I think rainfall is a big factor and Thailand has a shorter period of rain and would likely need to be in an area where there is plenty of year round water.

We used to have some land in the Korat area (Nontaburi12 rai in all) that had all year round water.

[Brewster67]

Maize farmers are having a bad time at this time ,last year they was a drought ,most farmers lost they entire first crop ,in a normal year in Thailand you can get 2 crops a year ,I am south of you in Lopburi province ,and maize is a main crop round here .

We have a co-op round here ,but all the farms act on they own ,buying in seed ,fertilizer ,etc ,the co-op, just buy the crop ,and try and sell it at a good price ,most maize farmers sell it to one big independent buyer ,who also sells seed ,fertilizer ,and sprays etc ,a lot is sold on credit ,and the cost taken off when they sell the crop back to buyer .

If you provided seed ,and gave a guaranteed buy back price ,may be a say 2 ? Bart above market price ,you would not need a co- op ,word would soon get round ,I would have thought you would have no problem ,in finding growers .

Then I think the problems will start ,say you have 500 rie @ 800 kg /rie ,that is 4000 ton ,,you said you have a background of food production and processing ,if you look at TV's maize thread you will read that most maize is harvested at 25-35 % moisture ,as you know that has to be dried down to 15 % for safe storage that on its own could be a problem ,with out any heating up in the crop ,that would spoil the crop ,I have lived in this area a long while ,and we have nowhere that amount of storage space ,and I would not like to foot the bill for haulage to large storage area for 4000 ton of corn , unless of course the manufacturing company can handle that amount ,in a short time .

Also ,you now get your supplies from abroad where I would say quality standards are higher and they would have the equipment to clean and grade the crop ,they should be facilities in Thailand ,probably a rice mill ,but where ,and somewhere that could handle a large amount of corn , could be a long way from where the corn is ,again transport costs ,and then you have to send it to the manufacturing company ,probably in 50 kg sacks ,another job to do .

I am no expert, the above are a few things I thought of .

Price of maize on the cob round here last year was 4.70 - 5.80 Bart/ Kg .

Regards

KS

Thank you for your very informative post, and the price, I had an idea it was around that amount.

I have no idea what the yield per rai would be, so was shooting at about 80% of regular corn and for simplicity came out at 800KG per Rai mostly for a ballpark figure.

A little research and i have ascertained that popcorn seed represents around 14% of the total cob weight.

I think you may have added one zero too much on your calculus (easily done) But let us say 'for the sake of simplicity' before we know any better through sampling. That we get 800kg/rai from 1000 rai. That would be 800 Tonnes of cobs.

We will have a machine that can remover the husks and then another that can remove the seeds which should bring it down to a more manageable 112 Tonnes.

I want to build a large bath to clean the kernels and get rid of dust and debris with fans, then they will go into a large heating tunnel on a slow moving conveyor set at a speed that will bring the moisture content down to the optimal 13.8% for storage and popping. These will be then bagged by us at 25KG in moisture resistant bags and stacked on pallets 6 x 8 layers at 1.2 tonnes per pallet. Which is a little over 93 pallets worth. So actually not a massive storage problem.

The stalks and all other waste such as the hulls will be fed into a wood chipper for farmers to take away to use as mulch.

That is my plan anyway, not perfect and subject to change, and will probably be fraught with problems, but I thrive on problems... In my wibbly wobbly world, we don't have 'problems'.... we have 'challenges'.

I can see my biggest logistical headache would be transport costs, but maybe there is a way we can go to the site and process the actual wet kernels in situ and leave a nice pile of shredded organic waste for the farmers to spread. That way all we need to transport is the bare minimum.

Everything is a challenge at the moment

[Brewster67]

I have wanted to grow popcorn on a small scale for years. I wouldn't consider doing a large scale with doing a test. The seed you will bring in has been developed to work in a particular climate with certain pests and in a certain type of soil. The wrong bug comes along and someone could lose a crop. Try to get a couple of rai grown as a test. PM me if you get seed as I would like to try a small batch (1/4 to 1/2 rai).

I am curious about your production numbers of 800 kg of rai. If you are using the average for field corn, I think you be way too high. I think popcorn would run about 60% of normal. BTW, where are you located, I'm in Petchabun.

Cheers

Hi Jotham79 thank you for the offer of some test land.

Yes I would certainly be open to that, we can get some seed to you of course. How much seed do you normally plant in a 1/4 or 1/2 rai?

I love Petchabun and was saying to the wife only just recently that it was long overdue for a visit there.

When do you normally plant?

[Brewster67]

This was just a small part of the delivery, over 10 tonnes in total.

[kickstart]

I will have ,go back to school. or buy a new calculator .

I brought some popcorn to day ,gave it to the wife ,and said do you know maize variety that makes popcorn she said as a kid they use to grow a few rows in the garden for they own use I said any problems with bugs or disease she said none at all ,she said the grains where a lot smaller ,and yield a lot lower ,so I would say that Jotham 79 reckoning of 60% of normal yield would be about right.

She said from sowing to harvest was 100 days same as feed corn ,this was at least 30 years ago ,all pre- hybrid corn ,use to keep a few cobs back for seeds for the next crop , first off use to buy seed from a local merchant .in town.

I would say all this has changed with hybrid verity's, one problem she had once ,was planting the popcorn ,too close to the feed corn ,and they got cross pollination , the pop corn ,corn did not pop over well.

[IsaanAussie]

I have tried a sweetcorn in a few plots and had some success, never popcorn though. Two issues of interest I would like to raise. Firstly the perpetual "midnight shoppers" enjoyed some of the crop, and second, we were approached by a local stall holder to buy our corn for him to sell cooked at the local market. This surprised me as we are quite remote and had not tried to sell to anyone. It doesn't take long for the word to get around and with such a large crop as discussed here, only minutes before the large companies would get to know of potential profits (or perceived threats).

I would suggest that the OP think about what would happen to the crop grown under contract to him. Assume it is well tended and ripens. How would you protect it from opportunitistic harvesters? And how would you stop any part being sold to other people who offer more or even money "right now"?

Perhaps you should consider how you can give the contract grower the incentive to maximise his return by allowing him to add value to your crop. That is dry and shell the kernels on-farm. He could sell the by-products for feed, even mill and pelletise the cobs for fuel. You get the dried kernels ready to bag and sell which are purchased at a per ton price. You could even screen the kernels prior to weighing them. The only pre-delivery risk to you is then the price of the seed supplied.

[Jotham79]

I did some calculations based on a good crop a few years ago when I had good records. We averaged 650 kg per rai and my guess is that popcorn done well is more likely to bring you 450 Kg per rai. The big factor is what you are willing to pay per kg so the farmer has an incentive to switch crops.

There are 2 main systems around here. First a broker will make a deal with you and supply seed and fertilizer in advance. You plant and raise the crop and pay people to come pick and bag your crop. He will provide you with hemp bags and send his trucks to you to haul the seed to a mill. There it is shelled tested for moisture, weighed and you get the posted price for that time. The broker gets his money back for the seed and fertilizer and a commission from the mill.

The second way is the same up to harvest. The broker has a corn picker and sheller which he brings to harvest your crop for a fee (usually a little cheaper that hiring pickers) and send your crop to the mill in trucks. There are thousands of ria of corn grown around here and I have only heard of one attempted theft of an old man. He fought the thief with a machete and both were killed.

At the volume you want I would recommend you set up a small mill and buy a harvester. Maybe a small fertilizer business and get a harvesting machine. Consider buying a tractor with a planter adapted for popcorn. The more you control the pipeline the better. At first you will probably need to hire the land and labor to show locals what is involved and then provide training. The optimal row width and seed distance will be different than they are used to as well as the amount of fertilizer. You might consider working deals to do soy beans in rotation and even sunflower seeds.

There is always going to be some theft. When I was growing up on a farm my dad used to say the first row by the road is for the public for roasting ears. The most important thing is for you to be perceived as Jai Dee and a fair businessman. Make sure you are not taking money out of anyone's pockets and show you are putting money into the local area.

[kickstart]

I did some calculations based on a good crop a few years ago when I had good records. We averaged 650 kg per rai and my guess is that popcorn done well is more likely to bring you 450 Kg per rai. The big factor is what you are willing to pay per kg so the farmer has an incentive to switch crops.

There are 2 main systems around here. First a broker will make a deal with you and supply seed and fertilizer in advance. You plant and raise the crop and pay people to come pick and bag your crop. He will provide you with hemp bags and send his trucks to you to haul the seed to a mill. There it is shelled tested for moisture, weighed and you get the posted price for that time. The broker gets his money back for the seed and fertilizer and a commission from the mill.

The second way is the same up to harvest. The broker has a corn picker and sheller which he brings to harvest your crop for a fee (usually a little cheaper that hiring pickers) and send your crop to the mill in trucks. There are thousands of ria of corn grown around here and I have only heard of one attempted theft of an old man. He fought the thief with a machete and both were killed.

At the volume you want I would recommend you set up a small mill and buy a harvester. Maybe a small fertilizer business and get a harvesting machine. Consider buying a tractor with a planter adapted for popcorn. The more you control the pipeline the better. At first you will probably need to hire the land and labor to show locals what is involved and then provide training. The optimal row width and seed distance will be different than they are used to as well as the amount of fertilizer. You might consider working deals to do soy beans in rotation and even sunflower seeds.

There is always going to be some theft. When I was growing up on a farm my dad used to say the first row by the road is for the public for roasting ears. The most important thing is for you to be perceived as Jai Dee and a fair businessman. Make sure you are not taking money out of anyone's pockets and show you are putting money into the local area.

The problem .as I see it we do not know what the op is selling his crop to the manufacture at ,If he supplies seed ,and fertilizer would be a good idea ,most farmers are tight on fertilizer ,with lower yields and ,as you said paying a few Bart over market price as an incentive what would that do to his margins .

It also depends where he grows his corn ,round here brokers are unheard of , all the farmers are on they own ,pickers often come with a ganger . this area use to grow seed corn F1 highbred, ,the cobs where a lot smaller 50% less ,than feed corn ,and the pickers wanted a lot more money to pick the cobs at the time 50 Bart bag ,as apposed to 25 Bart /bag for feed corn ,and as the popcorn cobs are smaller ,pickers will want a lot more for picking pop corn maize I would not use a combine ,to much goes out the back ,machine not set up right ,driving to fast , unless the op drives the combine himself, if it is a wet year ,could be hand picking only ,combine could not thrash out the cobs ,harvest could work out expensive.

I like the idea of drying on site ,a mobile batch dryer would work using gas ,not cheap , have seen one in Thailand some years ago ,no storage problems then

As for renting land round here 25 ria block ,now almost 30 000 Bart / year ,may be cheaper else where ,but not that much , a big cost ,direct drilling ,would save a lot of money ,as apposed to all that ploughing row spacing are the same as feed corn .

IMO, pay the farmer his incentive, provide seed ,fertilizer ,and direct drill the crop ,do that your self ,a lot of farmers have never direct drilled before ,would need an pre emergence herbicide, farmer appliers the fertilizer himself ,use local labour for harvest ,all of this you can budget for should give you a good idea as to the costs ,as the op said the gremlin will be transport costs.

[farmerjo]

Some very good comments on here.

Lots for the op to sort out,both agronomy and financially wise

Would a trip to the SME in his location come up with some similar business models to go on,on the agronomy side.