Elephant kills Scottish tourist on Koh Samui

[connda]

An eye witness report suggests the man, who had a prosthetic leg, had been teasing the elephant with a banana that he offered to the beast before taking it back.

Farang man bad. Tease elephant with banana. Elephant mad so kill man. Farang stupid. Stupid farang not to tease elephant. Maybe elephant musth. Stupid farang should know better. Stupid farang fault he die.

My input: Close all zoos. End of story.

Oh crap, I just read the governor indicated the bull may have entered 'musth' two day earlier. Yeah, hope they are sued into bankruptcy. That's just negligence.

[Scouse Twoccer]

*** If properly trained I see no problem riding even a bull elephant if not in Musth. I actually did not ride on his back in sedan chair but on his neck/head.and mahut who raised the elephant taught me how to change directions by calling the elephants name and putting pressure with my foot on the back of his neck/ears. An illfitted sedan chair that rubs or digs into his skin could aggravate one. If anyone thinks a 4 ton plus packaderm feels the weight of 185 lb man and its to much of burden to carry your crazy. They can handle cold bettter than heat so can be overtired from too many rides in hot weather. My mahut had a stick but no iron bar with hook usually just taped elephant or pointed which way he wanted him to go. We saw a mahut once start hitting an elephant in the head with the iron bar and I and other tourists yelled at him to stop. It then ate some brush and we moved on.

In domesticated elephants[edit]

An elephant on musth trying to break its chain

A musth elephant, wild or domesticated, is extremely dangerous to both humans and other elephants. In zoos, bull elephants in musth have killed numerous keepers when a normally friendly animal became uncontrollably enraged; in contrast to normal dominance behavior, bulls in musth will even attack and kill members of their own family, including their own calves. Zoos keeping adult male elephants need extremely strong, purpose-built enclosures to isolate males during their musth, which greatly complicates the expense of attempting to breed elephants in zoos; most zoos that keep a single elephant or a small herd typically have only females for this reason.

In India, domesticated elephants in musth are traditionally tied to a strong tree, or two strong trees, and denied food and water, or put on a starvation diet, for several days, after which the musth passes. Mahouts are often able to greatly shorten the duration of their elephants' musth, typically to five to eight days; xylazine (sedative) is also used.

Since denial of food and water is considered animal cruelty in most Western nations, the approved method in these countries is to strictly isolate the elephant in a highly fortified secure pen for a period ranging from 1 to 2 months until the elephant emerges from musth on its own. Medication against swelling and pain, as well as tranquilizers, are often mixed into the elephant's food. During this 1–2 month period the elephant cannot be trained, allowed outside or permitted to see other elephants, and must be fed, watered and cleaned by remote methods; it will surely attack any approaching keeper. Some^[which?] Indian mahouts decry this method as more cruel than simply starving/dehydrating the animal for a week, upon which it recovers and can be safely reunited with the herd.

Interaction with humans[edit]

Elephants are used for safari tourism throughout Asia

Mahouts washing an elephant,Thrissur, Kerala

Sri Lankan elephants at Esala Perahera

At this elephant training camp,captive elephants are taught to handle logs.

At most seasons of the year, Asian elephants are timid and much more ready to flee from a foe than to attack. However, solitary rogues are frequently an exception to this rule, and sometimes make unprovoked attacks on passers-by. Rogue elephants sometimes take up a position near a road, making it impassable to travelers. Females with calves are at all times dangerous to approach. When an Asian elephant makes a charge, it tightly curls up its trunk and attacks by trampling its victim with feet or knees, or, if a male, by pinning it to the ground with its tusks. During musth, bulls are highly dangerous, not only to human beings, but also to other animals. At the first indications, trained elephants are secured tightly to prevent any mishaps. There is also one case of a rogue elephant having actually consumed a human, an attack merited to be extremely unnatural. The elephant, a rogue female, had previously lost her calf to an accident involving farmers. This grievous loss led the elephant to target humans first as a threat, and then as a food source as her mental state deteriorated until she was finally killed and later dissected, revealing through DNA analysis that she had indeed consumed human flesh. The incident was revealed to the general public in several articles and in the Animal Planet documentary "World's Deadliest Towns: Man-Eating Elephant

Brilliant post. When I say brilliant I don't mean your knowledge of elephants et al, I mean your knowledge of how to copy and paste unnecessarily long Wikipedia extracts that no-one really wants to read through.

[connda]

On another website I read the story:

The elephant was a male and already the whole day wild, meaning in heat. To get him to work the mahout used the iron hook many times.

For a photo the Scottish with his 16 year old daughter sat on his neck teasing him with bananas. When they climbed down the elephant attacked first the mahout and then the Scot. At the end he killed him with his tusk and ran away.

So the tourist died because of greediness. This male elephant shouldn't have used for carrying anybody but to stay in his coral for a while.

It's a shame. RIP

OK - firstly - the they are saying the elephant was in musth - this is NOT "in heat"

This means one of rwo things - they are looking ofr an excuse, and they have put their foot in it because they basically have admitted they don't know how to handle an elephant.

The use of these "ankus" or hooks is normal practice on elephants - it is of course very distasteful and cruel, but most tourists choose to ignore it.

if the hook was being used more than normal, it also shows further that the keeper didn't know what he was doing....whether or not this goaded the animal further cannot be really established and tin musth and elephant's behaviour is unpredictable - goad or not.

the concept of "teasing" is yet another example of anthropomorphism and really doesn't help very much.

i don't actually think that ANY newspaper report at present is a very good guide to what happened - only a full inquiry would achieve that....but we know full well that all will happen is a load of platitudes from the local authorities designed to calm the public and keep the tourist trade coming.

well, you are right. Every newspaper produces a slightly different story depending on the view

Really it's the source and the knowledge of the reporter......some are just regurgitating the same story with a coupe of their own edits. No-one seems to have first-hand conversations with any of the elephant owners/keepers involved and I don't see any evidence of knowledge about elephant behaviour by ay of the articles.

If an elephant is in mush even the most stupid handler would not let it come anywhere near the public.

however these animals are used day in, day out to carry people about.......they are saddled with frames for carrying the tourists which at best are poory constructed with little acknowledgement of the elephants skeletal structure. If this carriage is poorly mounted or attached - (the ropes often cause running sores and scarring) - it would be very likely to cause the animals pain and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this could affect the animal's behaviour........it might even see the passengers as the source of its pain.

TIT. If an elephant in in musth, it can't earn the owner money. Greed being what it is..... As far as using the word 'tease', it seems to come up a lot after an animal attack. Show me a video, and I'll be the judge whether the an animal has been 'teased'. No video. No picture? No evidence. Then it's simply innuendo.

[soalbundy]

my sister was on an elephant trek when the elephant slipped over and crushed her, she had major surgery and cant walk properly now.

Elephant treks and playing in the river with elephants is very dangerous, these animals look docile but when they flip they kill.

There should be a BAN on elephant treks and TIGERS - both of these animals are being used to make money, both are being drugged and abused to push them farther.

Both animals require a LOT of food, and should not be captive

apart from that how was her holiday ?

[Patsycat]

Very sad for his family. Perhaps one or two of you that live there could perhaps reach out to his wife, a bit of moral support? She must be in pieces over this.

Instead of jabbering on about elephants and the whats and whys of elephant trekking, and bananas, and musk and etc.

Take this lady and her children some sympathy. I would. But then i am a nice person.

A cuppa tea, a nice word, a hand to hold. Ten or 15 minutes out of your busy day? They probably need a friendly face to translate for them etc.

[Emster23]

"Crowe was killed instantly after being thrown, stamped and stabbed by the elephant"

Try again. That doesn't sound like being killed instantly. A bullet to head, yeah probably instant.

If people would just take attitude that Thais at tourist attractions are trying to kill them, not necessarily with malice, but kill through gross negligence and ignorance, we might see a decline in this sort of tragedy. Maybe.

[falang khinok]

Advice from World Animal Protection:

"Elephants are not meant to be ridden"

"A spokeswoman said: “Elephants are cruelly abused to tame them enough so they give rides and perform in shows.

“Most tourists don’t know about these abuses, or the potential danger they put themselves in.

"If you can ride it, hug it or have a selfie with a wild animal, then the chances are it is cruel and the animal is suffering.”

Well this sounds reasonable...I saw elephants ,little elephants who was dragged through kaosan rd and the mahout try to make people buy banans for them....most of the people around thought it was cute...but observing the elephant closly you could see how he was suffering....if he would not comply they would use brute force on him the baby elephant....his skin looked unhealthy big areas around his neck was red pink where the skin got off....I think humans responsibility should be to take care for elephants just like they do it in http://www.thailandelephant.org/en/

but i think an elephant can be ridden and used for work like a buffolo without torturing him...but pls reply as I am not an expert on this subject

[falang khinok]

RIP my country man, I hope they do not decide to something awful to the elephant to keep TAT and the animal rights people appeased.

To the "riding animals" brigade are you serious?

Without the help of elephants, horses, donkeys this modern world we have would still be in the dark ages.

I abhor the abuse of animals in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world.

Mahuts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!

yes -we are serious - you are making the classic assumptions that ill-informed make about elephants.

First mistake: they are NOT comparable with other "domesticated" beasts of burden

They have been used for riding (and even war) but their skeletons are not suited to bearing loads on their backs.

Their main use has always been for PULLING which is a completely different thing.

You imply that the history of the elephant goes back millennia - this is actually not true - they just weren't very good at it and in those days people had know idea about how an elephant's body worked (or any other body for that matter). They had no explanation for the not uncommon paralysis in elephants that had been repeatedly forced to carry stuff on their backs. You will still see elephants today that have paralyzed rear legs etc. due to this.

Then you speak the unspeakable........

"Mahouts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!" - in Thailand THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!

most "mahouts" - and they really don't deserve this name are employed part-time or short term - they are only partially "trained" and in reality just know a series of often violent actions to make their elephants perform for the public.

Often elephants are owned by an owner who LEASES them to a "mahout" who then takes the animal away long or short term to make money out of it any way he can. There are few laws to protect the animal; they are no more than chattels. Even in genuine conservation parks, the relationship between minder and elephant is often only short term as the pay is simply not enough to keep a young man and his family.

The idea of a long mahout/elephant relationship is just a "Kipling myth".

In the west we all abhor animal cruelty; the problem is so many in the west are too ignorant of the issues to recognise it when they see it.

what you think about http://www.thailandelephant.org/en/ they look legimite government run proffesional ????????????

[cumgranosalum]

RIP my country man, I hope they do not decide to something awful to the elephant to keep TAT and the animal rights people appeased.

To the "riding animals" brigade are you serious?

Without the help of elephants, horses, donkeys this modern world we have would still be in the dark ages.

I abhor the abuse of animals in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world.

Mahuts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!

yes -we are serious - you are making the classic assumptions that ill-informed make about elephants.

First mistake: they are NOT comparable with other "domesticated" beasts of burden

They have been used for riding (and even war) but their skeletons are not suited to bearing loads on their backs.

Their main use has always been for PULLING which is a completely different thing.

You imply that the history of the elephant goes back millennia - this is actually not true - they just weren't very good at it and in those days people had know idea about how an elephant's body worked (or any other body for that matter). They had no explanation for the not uncommon paralysis in elephants that had been repeatedly forced to carry stuff on their backs. You will still see elephants today that have paralyzed rear legs etc. due to this.

Then you speak the unspeakable........

"Mahouts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!" - in Thailand THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!

most "mahouts" - and they really don't deserve this name are employed part-time or short term - they are only partially "trained" and in reality just know a series of often violent actions to make their elephants perform for the public.

Often elephants are owned by an owner who LEASES them to a "mahout" who then takes the animal away long or short term to make money out of it any way he can. There are few laws to protect the animal; they are no more than chattels. Even in genuine conservation parks, the relationship between minder and elephant is often only short term as the pay is simply not enough to keep a young man and his family.

The idea of a long mahout/elephant relationship is just a "Kipling myth".

In the west we all abhor animal cruelty; the problem is so many in the west are too ignorant of the issues to recognise it when they see it.

what you think about http://www.thailandelephant.org/en/ they look legimite government run proffesional ????????????

excuse me?

[JulianLS]

Very sad.

Elephants on Samui? Really? When would an island have an elephant population? Was there logging there?I suspect they are just shipped over for the simple aim of exploitation in pursuit the tourist dollar.

Where have these elephants come from?

It's about time that Thailand faced up to its abuses of animal rights.

it is about time that tourists educated themselves on animal abuse before coming to destinations like Thailand.

Rule of thumb -= if you can ride it, it's being exploited.

Have you heard of the Sumatran elephant? I think you will find that Sumatra is an island. You might also find one or two elephants on Sri Lanka too!

It wasnt so long ago that you could walk from Bangkok to Jakarta (let alone to Samui)....and you can find marine fossils miles from the coast in many places. Things change. Samui may be an island now.....but perhaps not always!

Having said that, geo-history lesson over. The points you have made are valid and very probably the reality. And I endorse the general principle that you are conveying.

[JulianLS]

RIP my country man, I hope they do not decide to something awful to the elephant to keep TAT and the animal rights people appeased.

To the "riding animals" brigade are you serious?

Without the help of elephants, horses, donkeys this modern world we have would still be in the dark ages.

I abhor the abuse of animals in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world.

Mahuts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!

yes -we are serious - you are making the classic assumptions that ill-informed make about elephants.

First mistake: they are NOT comparable with other "domesticated" beasts of burden

They have been used for riding (and even war) but their skeletons are not suited to bearing loads on their backs.

Their main use has always been for PULLING which is a completely different thing.

You imply that the history of the elephant goes back millennia - this is actually not true - they just weren't very good at it and in those days people had know idea about how an elephant's body worked (or any other body for that matter). They had no explanation for the not uncommon paralysis in elephants that had been repeatedly forced to carry stuff on their backs. You will still see elephants today that have paralyzed rear legs etc. due to this.

Then you speak the unspeakable........

"Mahouts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!" - in Thailand THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!

most "mahouts" - and they really don't deserve this name are employed part-time or short term - they are only partially "trained" and in reality just know a series of often violent actions to make their elephants perform for the public.

Often elephants are owned by an owner who LEASES them to a "mahout" who then takes the animal away long or short term to make money out of it any way he can. There are few laws to protect the animal; they are no more than chattels. Even in genuine conservation parks, the relationship between minder and elephant is often only short term as the pay is simply not enough to keep a young man and his family.

The idea of a long mahout/elephant relationship is just a "Kipling myth".

In the west we all abhor animal cruelty; the problem is so many in the west are too ignorant of the issues to recognise it when they see it.

Whoa... your heart might be in the right place but your history sucks.....

Elephants go back millions of years (mammoths).

Use of elephants does go back millenia. Try googling "Hannibal". In the 16th Century, the Indian Mughal emoperors had tens of thousands of elephants in their armies.... and so on.

Yes, none of those people gave a shlt about the well-being of the elephants. And now we do to a greater extent (well, more occidentals than orientals to be honest). But please dont try to re-write history, as it detracts from your credibility and your message!

[cumgranosalum]

Very sad.

Elephants on Samui? Really? When would an island have an elephant population? Was there logging there?I suspect they are just shipped over for the simple aim of exploitation in pursuit the tourist dollar.

Where have these elephants come from?

It's about time that Thailand faced up to its abuses of animal rights.

it is about time that tourists educated themselves on animal abuse before coming to destinations like Thailand.

Rule of thumb -= if you can ride it, it's being exploited.

Have you heard of the Sumatran elephant? I think you will find that Sumatra is an island. You might also find one or two elephants on Sri Lanka too!

It wasnt so long ago that you could walk from Bangkok to Jakarta (let alone to Samui)....and you can find marine fossils miles from the coast in many places. Things change. Samui may be an island now.....but perhaps not always!

Having said that, geo-history lesson over. The points you have made are valid and very probably the reality. And I endorse the general principle that you are conveying.

The Sumatran elephant is a subspecies of the Asian elephant. re you suggesting that there is a subspecies of elephant indigenous to Samui.

i think you might try and sort out your perspectives on evolution, distribution and migration of elephant species...in particular te ones that are not extinct. you also might try and take into consideration such things and island dwarfism.

Yet again you might want to consider how often Samui was part of the mainland or how far an ordinary Asian elephant would swim. (Maybe they took the ferry0 You also might want to check out the natural history of Samui and check out any remains - fossil or otherwise of any elephants found on the island.

you also might want to consider the time lines involved for wild elephants to colonise and remain on Samui. (you need at least 2)

Islands with recent elephant populations are usually the result of populations put there by man.....Koh Chang was logged at elephants were used, but that was some time ago.

If all that sounds a bit like hard work/research, you could always ask the elephant camps on Samui where they got them - they will tell you they had them shipped from the mainland.

[cumgranosalum]

RIP my country man, I hope they do not decide to something awful to the elephant to keep TAT and the animal rights people appeased.

To the "riding animals" brigade are you serious?

Without the help of elephants, horses, donkeys this modern world we have would still be in the dark ages.

I abhor the abuse of animals in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world.

Mahuts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!

yes -we are serious - you are making the classic assumptions that ill-informed make about elephants.

First mistake: they are NOT comparable with other "domesticated" beasts of burden

They have been used for riding (and even war) but their skeletons are not suited to bearing loads on their backs.

Their main use has always been for PULLING which is a completely different thing.

You imply that the history of the elephant goes back millennia - this is actually not true - they just weren't very good at it and in those days people had know idea about how an elephant's body worked (or any other body for that matter). They had no explanation for the not uncommon paralysis in elephants that had been repeatedly forced to carry stuff on their backs. You will still see elephants today that have paralyzed rear legs etc. due to this.

Then you speak the unspeakable........

"Mahouts love their Elephants, it's a relationship that can Span decades, do not deride these guys or their majestic mounts!" - in Thailand THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!

most "mahouts" - and they really don't deserve this name are employed part-time or short term - they are only partially "trained" and in reality just know a series of often violent actions to make their elephants perform for the public.

Often elephants are owned by an owner who LEASES them to a "mahout" who then takes the animal away long or short term to make money out of it any way he can. There are few laws to protect the animal; they are no more than chattels. Even in genuine conservation parks, the relationship between minder and elephant is often only short term as the pay is simply not enough to keep a young man and his family.

The idea of a long mahout/elephant relationship is just a "Kipling myth".

In the west we all abhor animal cruelty; the problem is so many in the west are too ignorant of the issues to recognise it when they see it.

Whoa... your heart might be in the right place but your history sucks.....

Elephants go back millions of years (mammoths).

Use of elephants does go back millenia. Try googling "Hannibal". In the 16th Century, the Indian Mughal emoperors had tens of thousands of elephants in their armies.... and so on.

Yes, none of those people gave a shlt about the well-being of the elephants. And now we do to a greater extent (well, more occidentals than orientals to be honest). But please dont try to re-write history, as it detracts from your credibility and your message!

I'm well aware of extinct species of the elephant family...........but I think you need to get you timescales sorted, and when they became extinct - don't forget to check out the mastodon too.

Then what's yu point? Are you suggesting that Homo Sapiens rode around of mammoths?

Hannibal - Ok - do you know how many elephants he had? current theory is about 37.....most died of the cold in the alps and the rest died in Italy...only one made it to Rome. ten of thousands - why don't you check up before you write such patently inaccurate nonsense? The biggest stocks of elephants were about 3 to 5 thousand but it is unlikely tht they would have all been deployed in one place as war elephants at the same time.

the main thing elephants were used for was HAULING especially logging...in fact that's why Thailand has a captive elephant population.

unfortunately now that population is ageing those making money out of tourism ae looking to replace/increase stock and this is leading to unacceptable practices - breeding, smuggling etc.....baby elephants are of course the premium product.

there are many people and organisations in Thailand that really care for elephants and other wildlife, but this and all previous governments have no wildlife or animal welfare policies or even education programs so large sections of th population are ept in the dark....and ridiculous mis-informed "history" lessons like yours don't help one ;ittle bit.

[sunnyjim5]

I have yet to see an Elephant (Chang) used for trekking/riding that does not display obvious signs of being stressed.

The whole business should be shut down or this will not be the last tourist death.

[Basil B]

There would be far fewer elephants in the world if they were only in the wild or in nature reserves as many would have to be culled due to over population if not poached.

There needs to be a better managed system for those in captivity, one thing to consider would be to sterilise a high% those in captivity, and closely monitor the way they are being treated.

[canuckamuck]

If all that sounds a bit like hard work/research, you could always ask the elephant camps on Samui where they got them - they will tell you they had them shipped from the mainland.

And smuggled in from Burma.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

You know? i dont give a <deleted> about all the Kipling crap.I have been told he makes exceedingly good cakes.Thats it.But a man came here on holiday,with his family.No man expects to die whilst on holiday.Thai health and safety,dont make me laugh.

[Maggusoil]

Very sad.

Elephants on Samui? Really? When would an island have an elephant population? Was there logging there?I suspect they are just shipped over for the simple aim of exploitation in pursuit the tourist dollar.

Where have these elephants come from?

It's about time that Thailand faced up to its abuses of animal rights.

it is about time that tourists educated themselves on animal abuse before coming to destinations like Thailand.

Rule of thumb -= if you can ride it, it's being exploited.

How would you know. You lived your life in Galsgow and were interested in football, Scotch Whiskey, and British politics. How would you ever know how these beasts are handled, trained, or otherwise. You can't really blame the tourist. I've never ridden an elephant, but their eyes are always so sad. One can see the abuse in their expressions. If one finally goes off its tree, it is not surprising, but tourists are ignorant of the finer details of these things.

[gandalf12]

On another website I read the story:

The elephant was a male and already the whole day wild, meaning in heat. To get him to work the mahout used the iron hook many times.

For a photo the Scottish with his 16 year old daughter sat on his neck teasing him with bananas. When they climbed down the elephant attacked first the mahout and then the Scot. At the end he killed him with his tusk and ran away.

So the tourist died because of greediness. This male elephant shouldn't have used for carrying anybody but to stay in his coral for a while.

It's a shame. RIP

OK - firstly - the they are saying the elephant was in musth - this is NOT "in heat"

This means one of rwo things - they are looking ofr an excuse, and they have put their foot in it because they basically have admitted they don't know how to handle an elephant.

The use of these "ankus" or hooks is normal practice on elephants - it is of course very distasteful and cruel, but most tourists choose to ignore it.

if the hook was being used more than normal, it also shows further that the keeper didn't know what he was doing....whether or not this goaded the animal further cannot be really established and tin musth and elephant's behaviour is unpredictable - goad or not.

the concept of "teasing" is yet another example of anthropomorphism and really doesn't help very much.

i don't actually think that ANY newspaper report at present is a very good guide to what happened - only a full inquiry would achieve that....but we know full well that all will happen is a load of platitudes from the local authorities designed to calm the public and keep the tourist trade coming.

well, you are right. Every newspaper produces a slightly different story depending on the view

Really it's the source and the knowledge of the reporter......some are just regurgitating the same story with a coupe of their own edits. No-one seems to have first-hand conversations with any of the elephant owners/keepers involved and I don't see any evidence of knowledge about elephant behaviour by ay of the articles.

If an elephant is in mush even the most stupid handler would not let it come anywhere near the public.

however these animals are used day in, day out to carry people about.......they are saddled with frames for carrying the tourists which at best are poory constructed with little acknowledgement of the elephants skeletal structure. If this carriage is poorly mounted or attached - (the ropes often cause running sores and scarring) - it would be very likely to cause the animals pain and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this could affect the animal's behaviour........it might even see the passengers as the source of its pain.

If the elephant was in musth it was a stupid think to use it or even let people near it.

[cumgranosalum]

There would be far fewer elephants in the world if they were only in the wild or in nature reserves as many would have to be culled due to over population if not poached.

There needs to be a better managed system for those in captivity, one thing to consider would be to sterilise a high% those in captivity, and closely monitor the way they are being treated.

i think your premise that simply counting elephants is the object of the exercise is somewhat flawed.

however the IS a serious questionn as to why elephants in captivity are allowed to breed and it only exacerbates the problem.

[sawadee1947]

If the elephant was in musth it was a stupid think to use it or even let people near it.

well, that is our Western way to think about that matter, but we are in Thailand and there is money No 1 and not safety for any tourist. So in this case I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

[soalbundy]

You know? i dont give a <deleted> about all the Kipling crap.I have been told he makes exceedingly good cakes.Thats it.But a man came here on holiday,with his family.No man expects to die whilst on holiday.Thai health and safety,dont make me laugh.

basically you can expect to die anywhere, getting run over on the street, getting knifed by a drunken nutter in London, or drowning in the sea while swimming. British health and safety rules have become ridiculous, small boys having to wear safety glasses while playing conkers is just one example. Let us wrap ourselves up in cotton wool before leaving the house. Death happens,get used to it.

[cumgranosalum]

If the elephant was in musth it was a stupid think to use it or even let people near it.

well, that is our Western way to think about that matter, but we are in Thailand and there is money No 1 and not safety for any tourist. So in this case I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

As yet I see no convincing evidence that this animal was in musth.

and this BBC report quotes vets as saying nothing about musth either

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35466237

[sawadee1947]

If the elephant was in musth it was a stupid think to use it or even let people near it.

well, that is our Western way to think about that matter, but we are in Thailand and there is money No 1 and not safety for any tourist. So in this case I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

As yet I see no convincing evidence that this animal was in musth.

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

[cumgranosalum]

If the elephant was in musth it was a stupid think to use it or even let people near it.

well, that is our Western way to think about that matter, but we are in Thailand and there is money No 1 and not safety for any tourist. So in this case I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

As yet I see no convincing evidence that this animal was in musth.

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

anyone serious about animal welfare wouldn't clime on an elephant.

in your observations of the camp wat would you look for?

[sawadee1947]

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

anyone serious about animal welfare wouldn't clime on an elephant.

in your observations of the camp wat would you look for?

wat would you look for

for someone like you to get advice

[cumgranosalum]

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

anyone serious about animal welfare wouldn't clime on an elephant.

in your observations of the camp wat would you look for?

wat would you look for

for someone like you to get advice

Your approach is very naive. To understand the issues surrounding elephants and general animal abuse you need to get informed on all aspects.

If you do this you would realise that even an expert couldn't tell just by a couple of hours what the problem of a particular camp are.

Wildlife attractions are shows and they are carefully designed to put on a show for the public - this is usually just a veneer but it prevents the casual observer from seeing what is going on......this could be the housing, diet, how they are treated out of the public eye - none of this will a layperson see on a day trip to a facility.

There are of course some things you can check for yourself if you have done your research beforehand....but remember - just like GreenCross I won't be there when you climb on an elephant.

so why not just accept the rule f thumb - if you can ride it, it's being exploited?

[soalbundy]

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

anyone serious about animal welfare wouldn't clime on an elephant.

in your observations of the camp wat would you look for?

wat would you look for

for someone like you to get advice

Your approach is very naive. To understand the issues surrounding elephants and general animal abuse you need to get informed on all aspects.

If you do this you would realise that even an expert couldn't tell just by a couple of hours what the problem of a particular camp are.

Wildlife attractions are shows and they are carefully designed to put on a show for the public - this is usually just a veneer but it prevents the casual observer from seeing what is going on......this could be the housing, diet, how they are treated out of the public eye - none of this will a layperson see on a day trip to a facility.

There are of course some things you can check for yourself if you have done your research beforehand....but remember - just like GreenCross I won't be there when you climb on an elephant.

so why not just accept the rule f thumb - if you can ride it, it's being exploited?

does that include the wife ?

[cumgranosalum]

I get the impression that most expats and tourists make huge assumptions about elephants and wildlife in general - they are completely unaware of current scientific thinking on the matter and consequently extremely uncritical of any interactions they engage in.

It seems to me they need to inform themselves of what is going on. It is much easier now than when I started at university - in those days we had Microfiche, Marconi mainframes, Lycos and Yahoo but now EVERYONE has access to Google.

Teach yourself to search - most people don't really know how - there's more to it than typing in a word and READ the articles you get - download them for reference.

here's a starter for elephant abuse in Thailand

http://expertvagabond.com/elephants-in-thailand/

Remember one article does not an answer make - you need to read mutliple article and learn to analyse your sources too.

[sawadee1947]

you have to read carefully: As I said I would observe the camp before I would climb on an elephant. (in future)

anyone serious about animal welfare wouldn't clime on an elephant.

in your observations of the camp wat would you look for?

wat would you look for

for someone like you to get advice

Your approach is very naive. To understand the issues surrounding elephants and general animal abuse you need to get informed on all aspects.

If you do this you would realise that even an expert couldn't tell just by a couple of hours what the problem of a particular camp are.

Wildlife attractions are shows and they are carefully designed to put on a show for the public - this is usually just a veneer but it prevents the casual observer from seeing what is going on......this could be the housing, diet, how they are treated out of the public eye - none of this will a layperson see on a day trip to a facility.

There are of course some things you can check for yourself if you have done your research beforehand....but remember - just like GreenCross I won't be there when you climb on an elephant.

so why not just accept the rule f thumb - if you can ride it, it's being exploited?

thank you for these tremendous interesting facts. It's good to have an expert like you on this forum.